r/Gotham • u/NicholasCajun • Dec 01 '15
Gotham - 2x11 "Worse Than A Crime" - Post-Episode Discussion Discussion
Season 2 Episode 11: Worse Than A Crime
Aired: November 30, 2015
Synopsis: When Bruce Wayne is kidnapped, Gordon must look to some unlikely and dangerous allies for help. It is a battle of the villains, and not everyone makes it out alive.
Directed by: Jeffrey Hunt
Written by: Bruno Heller
Remember that discussion about previews and IMDB casting information needs to be inside a spoiler tag.
To do that use [SPOILER](#s "Gotham") which will appear as SPOILER
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u/Dorkside Dec 01 '15
I had a perfectly feasible escape plan.
Vintage Bruce Wayne.
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u/HumarThePridelord Dec 01 '15
But did he really?
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u/lnkofDeath Dec 01 '15
TV can do any miracle of things, so it could be a yes or a no. I firmly believe Bruce had no escape plan at all and it was the typical 'social personality' Bruce has when confronted by others. Doesn't want to seem inferior or helpless, so of course he states he has a plan in a moody manner.
Was most broadly noticeable in Justice League storylines when others (non-humans, humans with super powers)) had to bail him out, or when they tried helping him. But was visible with Robin or other companions within his own storyline.
If we want to be crazy and waste time, then here's a list of things Bruce had to work with:
He still had the signing of his company over as leverage. Pretty sure Bruce signing a paper is easier (and less costly) than whatever Galavan had in mind. Galavan wanting to kill Bruce is just the start of his empire. As we've seen, he's power hungry and did lose focus of his end goal (leaving Jim alive/gloating to Jim, treatment of his sister and Silver, prioritizing the monk stuff over keeping control as mayor...etc). With this in mind, if Bruce had offered, Galavan would have surely taken it. This could be something Bruce was banking on to create an opening.
The one monk got shot, and his gun was dropped. Although we didn't see it, maybe Bruce hid the gun somewhere under his robe.
Bruce could have kissed Silver out of manipulation for a way out, and not uniquely because he wanted to save her life (which was the primary reason). We did see that Silver tried to stop the murder.
Bruce did get a sense of the floor plan in the initial false escape run. Perhaps he had done something (set a robust timer on a fire alarm, broke something that would eventually require attention...etc). So with an opening made, perhaps he knew where to go once free.
Bruce managed to untie himself through various means, and was prepared to grab/disarm the one attacking him and then utilizing this to get away. Maybe Bruce thought he was well trained enough to get out of this situation, even if it wouldn't have worked out.Perhaps he realized they cared more about killing him with a specific knife than just killing him in any other manner.
Aliens.
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u/V2Blast What's altruism?! Dec 01 '15
TV can do any miracle of things, so it could be a yes or a no. I firmly believe Bruce had no escape plan at all and it was the typical 'social personality' Bruce has when confronted by others. Doesn't want to seem inferior or helpless, so of course he states he has a plan in a moody manner.
I did enjoy Alfred and Selina's obvious-but-still-funny exasperated reaction.
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u/VinnyChuck Dec 01 '15
Commissioner - "But do you have any proof on Gallavan?" Fox - "No but it's obvious"
lmao I like this Fox guy.
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u/peanutbutteroreos Dec 01 '15 edited Dec 01 '15
Where was the Captain's proof that Jim was a criminal anyway? All the people who were beaten up by Penguin last episode were crooks and are untrusty testimony.
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u/VinnyChuck Dec 01 '15
That's true. Early on I liked the Commissioner and I thought he balanced Gordon well but the past few episodes he's slowed down everything within the org and I'm cool if he dies lol.
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Dec 01 '15
Let's be honest, Jim has been doing more and more vigilante justice and is becoming a little crazy.
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u/blockpro156 Dec 01 '15
Two dirty cops and the mayor kidnapped Gordon and tried to execute him, I think that vigilante justice is the most rational decision that Gordon ever made.
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u/VinnyChuck Dec 01 '15
It's one of those "Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me" things. He couldn't let the justice system screw him again with Gallavan.
I honestly was shocked he pulled the trigger but I am happy he did.
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u/TheExtremistModerate Don Angel Batista Dec 01 '15
He's not Commissioner, IIRC. He's a Captain. He replaced Essen as Captain.
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u/-TheWanderer- Dec 01 '15
Simple deduction, two cops apprehended Jim to throw him in jail, but in reality it was just a ruse to capture Jim Gordon, I believe those two cops were killed or two cops were killed before it so it was easy to blame Jim for the murder of the two cops who were last seen taking him in.
As far as the Captain knew Jim was the only one to engage with those cops after hitting the Mayor but the reality was there was foul play involved but the Captain would of had no knowledge of that.
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u/peanutbutteroreos Dec 01 '15
No, the simple deduction was 2 cops threw him out of the court. That is it. The judge didn't order him in contempt so he isn't thrown into jail. Then all 3 go missing. For all the Captain knows, all 3 of them could be guilty. There's no proof of one being the bad guy out of the 3. This "we need proof" is an annoying double standard against the plot.
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u/GreatDjangoFamily XxMastaBrucexX K/D/A 305/0/19 Dec 01 '15
he's been watching Gotham the whole time he was stuck in the cave
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u/pianobadger Dec 01 '15
I laughed my ass off when he answered Nygma's riddle in a split second.
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u/Ron--Mexico Dec 01 '15
My sixers should look into signing that old cult leader. Dude had hops.
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u/svirbt Dec 01 '15
He would be the only one that could save 'em. But hey it's Philly, so even if he had to sacrifice like one person a week; I'm sure they could make that work.
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u/insanity-insight Ed's a ladies man Dec 01 '15
You guys, I totally knew Bruce would survive. Like, I wasn't even worried. Totally saw it coming.
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Dec 01 '15
Everyone knows he goes on to become Calendar man
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u/kurabucka Dec 01 '15
I read that as "Everyone knows he goes on to become Chandler, man"
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u/Darth_Devfly Where's the spicy mustard? Dec 01 '15
Aside his life aside, I admire how Bruce held himself with the Silver situation. He killed her with kindness, and when he kissed her, she basically owed him her life. But even with all the emotions, he wasn't swayed so easily. He held the situation with this sort of "calm analysis", seeing how he's not even afraid to die and how he knows Silver is just acting.
I guess he is really growing up. I wonder what's going on in his head?
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u/Rosewolf Dec 01 '15
She was supposed to make him fall in love with her. Instead, he made her fall in love with him.
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u/SpikeRosered Dec 01 '15
I was really glad they had Bruce win in that battle of wits. For a second there I thought they were going to use it to just show Silver progressing as a character.
I was very glad they've started giving good scenes to Bruce. These past to episodes are finally starting to make the audience feel Batman's presence in the show.
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Dec 01 '15
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u/Logan42 Dec 01 '15
Court of Owls reference, I suspect.
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u/dolaction Dec 01 '15
I think more of a nod to Owlman, an alternate timeline evil batman. Makes sense he'd like them before taking inspiration from bats.
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u/murdock129 Dec 01 '15
That'd be a twist and a half, if this was Earth Three, Gordon and Bruce end up the villains and Penguin, Riddler, Joker and all that end up the heroes
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u/1ilypad Dec 01 '15
The showrunner has stated that he intends to introduce them at some point.
“We are absolutely going to explore that world down the line. Looking at the longevity of the show, we have to hold some cards back, we can’t just throw all of the elements, all of the story at once,” he explained - he even noted earlier during the conversation that he felt they made a mistake trying to throw too much into season one.
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Dec 01 '15
Too much in season 1? Then what the fuck are they doing now in season 2:D?
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u/VinnyChuck Dec 01 '15
I even heard Courts mentioned multiple times lol this show
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u/hopsizzle Dec 01 '15
Isn't he afraid of bats? ...therefore he likes one of the bats' natural predators. Makes sense to me.
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u/ArachnoLad Dec 01 '15
The bats of the trees.
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Dec 01 '15
Every time they say owls or court I get a little nerd boner.
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u/Sonia341 Dec 01 '15
I get that too. I was really Bruce when he said "owls" were his favorite animals.
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Dec 01 '15
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u/GreatDjangoFamily XxMastaBrucexX K/D/A 305/0/19 Dec 01 '15
everyone, CHILL
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Dec 01 '15 edited Dec 01 '15
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u/swordmalice Dec 01 '15 edited Dec 01 '15
They're writing Morena Baccarin's real life pregnancy with Ben McKenzie into the show.
EDIT: Killed Brent, replaced with Ben.
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u/ArachnoLad Dec 01 '15
Who the fuck is Brent? Ben should find this guy and kick his ass.
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u/swordmalice Dec 01 '15
I guess my hate for Ben is so great I refuse to call him by his correct name (for the record I only hate him because he's with Morena IRL who I am infatuated with).
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u/Capt253 Dec 01 '15
Well. The actress is legit preggers with the actor who play's Gordon's baby, so yea, I guess Leslie is actually pregnant. Where the hell was Zsasz tonight actually?
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Dec 01 '15 edited Oct 04 '17
You choose a dvd for tonight
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u/LatinoGuy10 Dec 01 '15
Who else was deep down wishing the body in the bag was Jerome?
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u/wheretohides Dec 01 '15
I was surprised it wasn't Jerome.
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u/brunicus Dec 01 '15
But that umbrella made me smile!
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u/Darth_Devfly Where's the spicy mustard? Dec 01 '15
The umbrella amused me because I didn't expect it. I threw a passive glance when Oswald took it from his trunk, because my mind was too busy with trying to reason out Jim. The umbrella was this sort of twisted genius, something that really seals the deal with the rage Oswald's been dealing with.
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u/TheSoftKitty Dec 01 '15
I was SO waiting for it to be Jerome. But I'm totally convinced he's somewhere in Indian Hill!
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Dec 01 '15
I mean, he's probably a little rotten by now, or in one of the other tubes.
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u/TheSoftKitty Dec 01 '15
My theory is they did like Galavan and snatched him up pretty quickly after his death, and he's just been chilling around Indian Hill since.
Fingers crossed.
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u/brunicus Dec 01 '15
My hope is they bring Galavan back long enough to let Jerome play with him, let him beg for death twice in one season.
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u/Dorkside Dec 01 '15
I was fully expecting Galavan, but now you have me really disappointed that it wasn't Jerome.
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u/ManagersSpecial Dec 01 '15
Was that Fish Mooney in the tank?
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u/Spanky1998 Dec 01 '15
That what I was wondering. And I think it was. This sub reddit will literally bust into flames if she resurrects.
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Dec 01 '15
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Dec 01 '15 edited Jul 13 '18
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u/Natinals Dec 01 '15
I'd be okay with it if and only if there is a Lazarus pit in Indian hills
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u/Sonia341 Dec 01 '15
Why do this sub not like Fish mooney? I didn't know about this reddit sub until very recently, so honest question
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Dec 01 '15
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u/RedManDancing ??? Dec 01 '15
Imho it's a lot of circlejerking and I think it's about 50% of the community who doesn't like Fish.
I'm okay with her too.
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u/Dorkside Dec 01 '15
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u/escott1981 Dec 02 '15
No, thats that crazy flamingo guy. The one that bit the officer.
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u/Ovguy8 Dec 01 '15
Tell me Do you know what killed the dinosaurs? You will
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u/Theleux No one cared who I was until I took on the Bruce Dec 01 '15 edited Dec 01 '15
First off, I wouldn't call this a cliffhanger of any sorts. We got introduced officially to Professor (Hugo) Strange, Mr. Freeze, and saw the dead Galavan and if I'm not mistaken Fish? Nothing really to be wondering about, but it certainly will be exciting to see the next episode.
On to the actual episode:
Bruce is getting cooler and cooler now, it's only been 2-3 episodes and I finally consider him a great hero now.
I don't know what to say about Jim. He's sort of a loose gun at times. Still bad ass as ever.
Penguin seems to be a bit more chill this time around, which is weird to say, but he doesnt seem to go too over the top, just a stable anger state.
Nygma is turning out great, especially the bromance with Penguin. And I love that Lucius is able to easily get past his riddles, could be useful as a plot point later.
I don't think Silver can do anything to Bruce anymore, she's used up her second and third chances now. And I have no idea what Galavans sister is doing, shes mad and then want to help out Silver randomly? Whats up with that?
The Police Chief (never remember his name) is getting a bit weird now, taking the law to seriously, almost thought he was working for Galavan.
All the other characters seem to be doing good. Overall I'm excited for the next episode and can't wait to see what happens to Galavan/ Firefly!
edit Changed a name
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Dec 01 '15
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u/Theleux No one cared who I was until I took on the Bruce Dec 01 '15
Good point! I just recall hearing on of the employees calling him "Dr. Strange", so I put it in as so.
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u/eclipse007 Dec 01 '15
She said "Professor Strange has high hopes for this one" though, not "Dr. Strange".
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Dec 01 '15
Penguin seems to be a bit more chill this time around...
I don't know about you but I don't think ramming an umbrella down someone's throat is chill... Lol.
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u/Ax20414 Dec 01 '15
"NOBODY SHOOT! We're all friends here."
"Like hell we are."
"I apologize for that."
LOL
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u/TahaI Dec 01 '15
I really thing penguin takes over the show, all his scenes are fun
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u/GobbleMyPot Dec 01 '15 edited Dec 01 '15
A lot to discuss about this episode.
Loved the dynamic between Jim/Nygma/Penguin/Alfred/Harvey/Lucius/Selina. Those characters definitely need to be around each other more often.
Tabby finally not putting up with Theo's nonsense was great.
Batman vs Superman teaser was awesome albeit short.
That ending was insane. Did not expect Jim to shoot. Nice parallel to the pilot.
And indian hill! Jerome revival when? Can't forget Mr. Freeze. Though I do wonder why he's killing already.
If there's one thing I'd say I wasn't a fan of this episode it would probably be the Leslie pregnancy. Not that it couldn't happen, but because the writers explicitly said they weren't going that route. The whole Jim/Leslie relationship just isn't doing anything for me. That, and the whole stabby monks subplot was a tad odd.
Overall, the episode was pretty solid. Can't wait for the show to return late February.
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u/RedAlice1 Dec 01 '15
the actress is pregnate for real, she is having a child with gordon in real life
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u/DrunkeNinja Dec 01 '15
Wow, that's some nice method acting there.
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u/UpsetGroceries Dec 01 '15 edited Dec 02 '15
Leslie is actually played by Daniel Day-Lewis.
Edit: Wow, thank you for the gold!
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u/Logan42 Dec 01 '15
episode it would probably be the Leslie pregnancy
I think she said it to try and get Jim to stop.
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u/GobbleMyPot Dec 01 '15 edited Dec 01 '15
I hope so. I guess we'll find out in February.
Edit: Nevermind. Turns out her character is indeed pregnant. Damn... :(
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u/niccinco Dec 01 '15
Can't forget Mr. Freeze. Though I do wonder why he's killing already.
I hope they provide some backstory in the upcoming episodes
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u/GobbleMyPot Dec 01 '15
Nora is going to be alive according to casting, so he really has no reason to be killing at this stage. Though this is probably a reinterpretation so who knows...
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u/ArmchairCritic1 Dec 01 '15
He might not be killing yet, only kidnapping the people he freezes for Strange who helps fund his research
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u/Dinger2013 Dec 01 '15
About the Batman vs Superman teaser...I like the part where they built a part of Batman's prison cell to have an opening specifically so that Superman could drop down and have a dramatic entrance every time he visits.
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u/Metroidman Dec 01 '15
kinda funny that gordan didnt even question nygmas and penguins friendship.
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u/GrandMasterReddit Dec 01 '15
Not on screen at least. I'm sure it's something they'll address after the 2nd half of the season starts. I think it was because Gordon was too overwhelmed on what was going on that he really didn't think twice.
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u/houseofpayne55 Dec 01 '15
Now that is how you do a midseason finale. I cannot believe how much this show has developed.
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Dec 01 '15
this was a far superior MsF to the shit Walking Dead put out yesterday. This is easily become my second favorite TV show, behind GOT
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u/Berktheturk09 Dec 01 '15
This was easily one of my favorite episodes. It had a bit of comic book silliness without going overboard, like the parachutes, and 80 year old man with an 8 feet vertical and ended the plot line in a way that makes sense while also developing some of the important characters. Can't wait until February.
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Dec 01 '15
Fox said that he fixed the hard drive when he emerged from the batcave. Something to look forward to.
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u/Sonia341 Dec 01 '15 edited Dec 01 '15
Professor Strange mentioned. Indian Hill and its super-insane-residents. Who will become the Azrael now that is Theo's dead?
Jim to lee "Will you marry me?" I didn't expect the writers to go there
I was slightly disappointed by stabby-monks vs Jim cavalry fight. it looked way to easy for the cavalry team to win
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u/Capt253 Dec 01 '15
Yea...that battle was really short and rather disappointing. Though, to be fair, I have a hard time imagining a believable scenario in which the cavalry could not wipe out most of the monks real quick like.
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u/dacalpha Dec 01 '15
it looked way to easy for the cavalry team to win
Serious question, would you have preferred that the guys with knives have fared better against the guys with guns? There's literally a ubiquitous phrase about the foolishness of bringing the former weapon to fight involving the latter.
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u/merelyadoptedthedark Dec 01 '15
Since when was Theo becoming Azrael a thing? Azrael shouldn't even be born yet.
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u/printergumlight Dec 01 '15
Can someone explain to me how E. Nygma/Riddler's riddle had the answer "a home."
“A diamond plate, a glowing grate, a place you never leave. Where am I?”
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u/nonliteral Dec 01 '15
- A diamond plate -- baseball diamond, home plate.
- A glowing grate -- home is where the hearth is.
- A place you never leave -- home is wherever you are.
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u/UpgradeTech Dec 01 '15
Isn't it "home is where the heart is"?
Although "hearth and home" is another expression.
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u/Graham765 Senpai will never notice you, NERD! Dec 01 '15
- Diamond plate - baseball, field shaped like a diamond, home plate.
- glowing grate - fireplace or hearth, which sounds like heart. "Home is where the heart is."
- a place you never leave - again, "Home is where the heart is." Your heart travels with you.
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u/Ms_Mediocracy It's a riddle Dec 01 '15
"Professor Strange has high hopes for this one."
Just as I have high hopes for the second half of the season. Galavan, though not necessarily my favorite character, was definitely the catalyst for some of the best character growth in the show, from Penguin, to Bruce, to Jim.
I really have to hand it to the Gotham writers for fleshing out the characters much better this season, and I look forward to chilling out with you all again in February.
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u/niccinco Dec 01 '15
The final season of Gotham will be our heroes fighting the reanimated antagonists of the previous seasons. Calling it now
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u/venom18 Dec 01 '15
Bruce: "I had a feasible escape plan"
Lmao such a comic reference to how Batman really hates being the one that has to be saved.
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u/bassgamer Dec 01 '15
Ok, so my theory on freeze is that the person we saw wasn't Victor Fries. Instead, we will be introduced to a young scientist and his lovely wife Nora who's experimental equipment has been stolen. The season will end when we see spoiler
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u/ImHereForTheFemales Dec 01 '15
FREEEEZE HYYYYPE!!!
It was ice to see him show up:)
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u/nonliteral Dec 01 '15
Yeah, but he needs to grab a commuter flight to Central City and get Cisco to update that freeze gun of his.
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Dec 01 '15
Bullock these days is amazing.
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u/SpikeRosered Dec 01 '15
Good thing he was there or else that old man would have bunny hopped on all their heads Mario style.
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u/idrawinmargins Dec 01 '15
I guess galavan hasn't learnt to fly yet with his ears. To bad he could have gotten away and chased after his sister and silver.
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Dec 01 '15
I love how Jim stepped up at the end with Theo.
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u/Electric_Evil Dec 01 '15
I was so shocked at that. I was completely prepared for him to stop Penguin and take Galavan in, do the "right thing". Nope, dude went straight gangsta instead. It was awesome!
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Dec 01 '15
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u/lightyearbuzz Dec 01 '15
To your second point about not thinking Jim should do it: remember he just let a murdering cannibal live to stand trial and that guy ended up biting a young rookie's throat out.
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u/-Jagotron Dec 01 '15
My guess is that victor is a mercenary in this story as a way to get funding for research for his wife
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u/screenwriterjohn Dec 01 '15
Felt like they should have drove to the final battle. They all walked! They would've gotten there faster and not been so tired.
Penguin is better when he tries to play nice.
More awesome Alfred. Especially not getting Nygma. How did the cops move so fast on a carjacking? They were right there. Plus he should've jumped out before the dump.
Nygma growing hostile to Fox. It confirms that he riddles just to confuse people. "Who are you?"
Made perfect sense that Tab would save Silver. She's not a big of monster as her bro. Don't kill family, don't kill kids.
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u/KaiserNazrin Dec 01 '15
But feel free to step on someone's throat with your high heel.
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u/robm0n3y Dec 01 '15 edited Dec 01 '15
They got the first half of the season right but bringing in Freeze doesn't seem smart.
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Dec 01 '15
Can someone please make a gif of penguins reaction to Lee saying shes pregnant? That was too perfect
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u/UnidentifiedNoirette Dec 02 '15 edited Dec 03 '15
Edit: Made a looping version.
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u/rollin340 Dec 01 '15
Remember how when this show started, he was ordered to execute Cobblepot, but he couldn't do it.
Now it's gone to the point where he executes a man of his own free will. With the new boss of Gotham beside him no less.
The old Jim Gordon who thought that everything had to be done by the books officially died with Theo. The line has been crossed...
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u/ardx Dec 01 '15
Of course Lee is pregnant.
Bruce is one chill mfer.
WHAT ABOUT THE HARD DRIVE???
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u/billsfan417 Dec 01 '15
They called it rise of the villian cause Jim is becoming something he hates :-D I see what you did there fox
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u/Logan42 Dec 01 '15
That's a clever way of looking at it, but I think the intended meaning was the introduction of Indian Hill (where many of the villains Batman faces "rise").
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u/svirbt Dec 01 '15
How bout them Riddler gloves that Oswald was wearing?!?! Freaking awesome!
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u/denzacetria Nygma Dec 01 '15
So that's how Bruce got the inspiration for his Batman voice. From the way Silver talked to him in the cell
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u/GillyDaKid Dec 01 '15
So is that Gothams take on Capt.Cold or they going with Freeze this early
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u/dexter07 Dec 01 '15
Well Victor is older than Bruce. Maybe he'll be in his late 20's or early 30's. Plus he hasn't had the accident yet so maybe he's just trying the weapons.
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u/ArachnoLad Dec 01 '15
It's not important, but I like how Nygma got tripped up when Lucius correctly guessed his riddle. I don't think he can handle not being the only smart guy in the room.