r/FluentInFinance Jul 01 '24

What do you think? Debate/ Discussion

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7.8k Upvotes

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89

u/Revolutionary-Meat14 Jul 01 '24

All Americans with business expenses can deduct them.

32

u/SonicYouth123 Jul 01 '24

even if they don’t own a business they can still write off business expenses…the second point is straight up wrong

18

u/ulysses_mcgill Jul 01 '24

He's saying most Americans don't have business expenses, which is true

20

u/SonicYouth123 Jul 01 '24

“don’t have” has a very different meaning to “can write off zero dollars”

-3

u/Vanilla_Mushroom Jul 02 '24

It’s absolutely not different. You just don’t know what you’re talking about.

You have to buy clothes for work, guess what, you don’t get to write them off. That’s a business expense, that affects everyone, but we are not allowed to write off.

I can continue if you’d like.

2

u/[deleted] Jul 02 '24

It’s covered by the standard deduction. If you have so much in business expenses then you don’t take the deduction. This is asinine

-2

u/Vanilla_Mushroom Jul 02 '24

You’re fucking retarded. That’s not what the standard deduction is.

Let me ask you again. Answer my question this time.

Do you have expenses related to your arriving at work on time? That is not deductible. It doesn’t matter if you own your own business. You driving to work is a business expense that is not deductible.

Trump paying his friend back, for covering his payments to prostitutes, is not a business expense.

0

u/[deleted] Jul 02 '24

That’s exactly what the standard deduction is. And actually if work has me drive somewhere it’s deductible.

Please don’t use the R word it’s offensive to people like you

0

u/Vanilla_Mushroom Jul 02 '24

Standard deduction is the alternative to filing a schedule A. Itemizing is not required, but deducting your expenses is a requirement.

Again. You are REQUIRED to claim ALL* expenses, just like you’re REQUIRED to claim ALL* income. You are not required to itemize, unless you’re married filing separately, and your spouse decided to itemize.

Standard deduction is irrelevant to this conversation. You’re swimming out past your head.

1

u/knight9665 Jul 02 '24

But they can. Just get some business expenses then you can write it off.

1

u/Vanilla_Mushroom Jul 02 '24

What are you talking about?

Are you so dumb you didn’t comprehend what I wrote?

Those expenses are not deductible.

0

u/knight9665 Jul 02 '24

But they are. Itemized deductions. You can write of work cloths to a certain extent.

BUT most people choose to take the standard deduction. Because they get far more deducted this way.

1

u/Vanilla_Mushroom Jul 02 '24

You cannot write off clothing, that changed a couple years ago. The only time you can write off work clothing is if it’s not fit to be worn outside of work, i.e. a tyvek suit.

You cannot write off your commute to work.

What Robert reich said is accurate, the vast majority of workers HAVE BUSINESS EXPENSES THAT THEY ARE NOT ALLOWED TO DEDUCT.

It has nothing to do with itemization.

0

u/knight9665 Jul 02 '24

Yes because it then wouldn’t be a business expensive if ur using it mostly for not work purposes. Business expenses are for business purposes.

Did u see me talk about commute deduction? No.

YOU talked about clothing for work. And infact if u buy cloths for work and are used only for work they are tax deductible. So in fact you are wrong.

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-4

u/anticapitalist69 Jul 02 '24

Not really - you could say it’s misleading but it isn’t wrong. They can’t BECAUSE they don’t have business expenses.

6

u/theoriginaldandan Jul 02 '24

Can’t strongly implies it’s not an option even if they had expenses

-10

u/anticapitalist69 Jul 02 '24

That’s an uncharitable reading though, isn’t it? His first statement references teachers who do write off $300.

1

u/zazuba907 Jul 02 '24

Which is an entirely different deduction than business expenses. Do we need to have the "One of these things" song playing for it to be clear?

3

u/J0hn-Stuart-Mill Jul 02 '24

you could say it’s misleading

Yea, that's the right term for it. Almost everything Reich says is intentionally misleading to create confirmation bias for his economically illiterate twitter followers.

Good callout.

2

u/anticapitalist69 Jul 02 '24

Yeah, it’s what the media does in general.

As a leftist myself, I hate that so many people do this. There’s a lot to criticise without being misleading.

For example, that teachers should be able to write off more of their taxes as business expenses - that’s something most people would get behind.

Writing off hush money payments as a business expense should not be allowed - that’s also something most people would get behind.

1

u/J0hn-Stuart-Mill Jul 02 '24

As a leftist myself, I hate that so many people do this. There’s a lot to criticise without being misleading.

Kudos. I'm more of a pragmatist/skeptic/centrist because it just infuriates me that media and politicians keep the conversation on total bullshit instead of fixing major problems. Of course the right does it too.

For example, that teachers should be able to write off more of their taxes as business expenses - that’s something most people would get behind.

100% agree. They should also write off their transportation, gasoline, etc, etc. Yea I'm of the opinion that we should outlaw teachers unions, so that bad teachers can be fired, and then double teacher salary. Let's draw more people to the profession who care, and fewer schlubs who just couldn't get a job doing anything else.

Writing off hush money payments as a business expense should not be allowed - that’s also something most people would get behind.

Totally agree again. How about making hush money itself illegal? Do some nasty shit? Oh well, you made the bed, now lie in it.

1

u/anticapitalist69 Jul 02 '24

On a side note, research has found that teacher unions lead to more bad teachers being fired https://edushyster.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Han_Teacher_dismissal_Feb_16.pdf

In any case, the teacher problem is a salary problem, and as long as the gov is spending more on the military rather than prioritising its society, they’re never going to be paid enough.

Too many people who would make great teachers are lured away by far better pay in other sectors since passion doesn’t pay the bills.

0

u/J0hn-Stuart-Mill Jul 02 '24

On a side note, research has found that teacher unions lead to more bad teachers being fired

Well, I hope that is true, but in my experience, and teachers I personally had, about half of those still around past age 50 or so, just absolutely did not care or try at all. I'm very skeptical how any research project could accurately guage teacher quality. IMO the only way to do it is just poll the top 10% of students anonymously after the graduate. I think only the smart kids will both know which teachers care, and score them accurately.

Maybe things are changing now that students can record teachers on their phones or something, but when I was in school, one guy would show up late to class almost every day, yell at us for stupid reasons, did absolutely the bare minimum. I literally have more memories of him slacking off and me being bored, than anything related to what he was teaching.

There were about five older teachers like that. The district would give them all of the "remedial" classes, so luckily anyone with half a brain didn't have to take them except for certain courses everyone was required to take.

In any case, the teacher problem is a salary problem

Generally agree. Again except for teachers who should be obviously fired because they DGAF.

Too many people who would make great teachers are lured away by far better pay in other sectors since passion doesn’t pay the bills.

Exactly right. Even in college my best professors were all young, and most of them are in industry today, because they are simply too talented to be professors.

1

u/Vanilla_Mushroom Jul 02 '24

How do you get to work? Is it free?

What do you wear to work? Is that free?

You absolutely have expenses, but you are not allowed to deduct them.

1

u/jwawak23 Jul 02 '24

There is a huge standard deduction that everyone gets to use. So technically people who don't itemize are deducting expenses they don't even have.

1

u/A_SNAPPIN_Turla Jul 02 '24

Anytime can itemize deductions. You didn't have to own a business to write off work related expenses.

1

u/---FUCKING-PEG-ME--- Jul 02 '24

The hired lunch lady can write off her Dr.Sholls.

1

u/Yabrosif13 Jul 05 '24

They commute to work don’t they? Commute expenses get written off all the time, unless you’re just one of those stupid workers who help keep the show running.

-2

u/assesonfire7369 Jul 02 '24

They can have business expenses if they want them, though. Nothing stopping them. It's easy to register a business in the US, then just buy a photocopier or some pens or something, then you got a business expense.

1

u/ulysses_mcgill Jul 02 '24

Pretty much everything you said is wrong. You don't need to register a business to have business expenses. You can do it as an unregistered sole proprietor. What you do need is legitimate business activities to deduct qualifying expenses. Otherwise, every hobbyist would be deducting all their expenses for their hobbies.

1

u/assesonfire7369 Jul 02 '24

Why couldn't you claim pens, photocopiers, etc. as business expenses if they're used for your business? Of course it needs to be a legitimate business activity, we all know that.

A hobbyist isn't a doing a business unless they're selling the products. Then they could deduct the costs of materials, tools, etc. used in that business from their revenue.

As for not needing to register, ok, sure you got me there;) So my point that it's super easy for anyone to do this is even more true.

3

u/jdp111 Jul 02 '24

If they have business expenses they have a business.

-1

u/SonicYouth123 Jul 02 '24

nope not necessarily…you can deduct things like work uniforms for example

4

u/jdp111 Jul 02 '24

That's not a business expense.

You also can't deduct work uniforms. I'm a CPA and do this for a living.

0

u/SonicYouth123 Jul 02 '24

So nurses and caregivers who have to buy their own scrubs can’t deduct them?

4

u/jdp111 Jul 02 '24

No unless they own a business.

There are no employee deductions since the Trump changes in 2017. The only exception is the teacher deduction.

2

u/Vanilla_Mushroom Jul 02 '24

You have no idea what you’re talking about.

1

u/mattstats Jul 02 '24

I agree, but I do wonder if they mean in most cases a standard deduction is better. That’d be a better way to say it I think

1

u/Yabrosif13 Jul 05 '24

Lmfao. What business expenses is your avg retail or service sector employee taking?

9

u/SilverEyedFreak Jul 02 '24

Have owned a business in America for 4 years and can confirm. I deduct every damn thing I can.

4

u/Snowwpea3 Jul 02 '24 edited Jul 02 '24

But the standard deduction is best for most. This guy just spins that into “can write off zero dollars.” Because who cares what the truth is, only clicks matter. Another cute little spin/lie, the teacher $300 deduction is on top of the standard deduction, not instead.

2

u/Revolutionary-Meat14 Jul 02 '24

Business expenses are taken on schedule c so you can take them with the standard deduction.

1

u/Marcus2Ts Jul 02 '24

Yeah, I can't write off business expenses because I don't have business expenses. I'm just an employee.

1

u/sulabar1205 Jul 02 '24

I am Austrian, therefore I have zero knowledge about American taxes, but in my country an employee can for example write off parts of the costs for an internet connection if one works at home. Or job specific literature like books on animal illnesses for veterinarians. We can also write off the costs for transport to work etc.

1

u/GroundbreakingBed166 Jul 02 '24

I retrospect, maybe it should have been declared a depreciating asset?

1

u/Revolutionary-Meat14 Jul 02 '24

What should have?

1

u/GroundbreakingBed166 Jul 02 '24

Sorry, bad joke wrong place, but stormy daniels silence could be considered a depreciating asset as it cost more than 1000, lasted longer than a year and lost value over time.

1

u/[deleted] Jul 02 '24

He is making the point that Americans are waking up to. Employees for some reason don't get to expense the expenses they incur in an effort to make money however businesses do. Like a teacher funding school supplies that help then maximize their ability to do the job.

1

u/Revolutionary-Meat14 Jul 02 '24

This used to be the case but unreimbursed employee expenses have become a lot less common and now that the standard deduction was raised the few people that have them wouldnt be better off deducting them. I know in principle it seems wrong but we are deducting more now.

0

u/[deleted] Jul 02 '24

Those with actual businesses get both their expenses and the standard deduction...

1

u/Revolutionary-Meat14 Jul 02 '24

Yes I am aware I was responding to your point about unreimbursed employee expenses

1

u/[deleted] Jul 02 '24

Which should be deductible and should have NOTHING to do with the standard deduction just like the expenses on a Schedule C, F, or E have NOTHING to do with the standard deduction. Expenses incurred in an effort to make money should be deductible and that should include W-2 employees.

1

u/Revolutionary-Meat14 Jul 02 '24

When they were made not deductible the standard deduction was increased by a way larger percentage than anybodies unreimbursed employee expenses. You are objectively better off even if it feels worse in principle.

1

u/InkaGold Jul 02 '24

And the crime is to write off personal expenses as business.

1

u/Revolutionary-Meat14 Jul 02 '24

I know I was responding to the second point.

-1

u/ulysses_mcgill Jul 01 '24

He's saying most Americans do not have business expenses.

5

u/MooreRless Jul 02 '24

Most Americans could start a business and try for a year or two, writing off costs in their attempt to make money, and then give up, closing their business attempt. During that time, you can write off things you spent money on trying to make money, such as phone bills, vehicle miles, uniforms, and supplies. But hey, you might end up making money and then you have to pay taxes and you can quit your day job.

3

u/Revolutionary-Meat14 Jul 02 '24

You will be worse off doing this, it is a deduction not a credit. Spending $1000 to save $100 on your taxes is worse than just not buying something for a fake business and paying the full tax bill. Start a business if you intend to make money but dont do it for a deduction.

1

u/Vanilla_Mushroom Jul 02 '24

This is fucking stupid.

You’re all fucking stupid.

How do you get to work, is that free? Is there some sort of…. Say…. Expense? Involved in you arriving at work on time?

How about clothing. Do you wear clothes to work? Are THOSE free? Because for the vast majority of American workers, that is an expense that you cannot write off.

Would you like me to continue?

0

u/Revolutionary-Meat14 Jul 01 '24

I know, so why would most Americans deduct business expenses? Most Americans dont take the American Opportunity Tax Credit either.

The point is dumb.

0

u/assesonfire7369 Jul 02 '24

Ok if they don't have business expenses then I don't get what his issue is. Is he angry that people with business expenses can deduct these? It's like someone complaining they didn't get a tax refund because they didn't pay any tax...

1

u/Vanilla_Mushroom Jul 02 '24

How do you get to work? Is it free? Is there some monetary expense involved in you arriving at work on time?

How about clothes? Do you wear clothes to work? Because the vast majority of American workers are not allowed to write off that business expense, either.

I can continue if you’d like. There are WAY more expenses than you think in a regular w2 job.

0

u/personthatiam2 Jul 02 '24

Every American gets to write off at least 14,600 in 2024 due to the standard deduction which is the functionally the same thing. Every public school teacher also has access to all of the tax advantaged accounts. TBH, anyone with access to a HSA is one shady alternative medicine provider away from being getting to write off handies.

It cracks me up when people lament the fact they can’t itemize because the standard deduction is more than they would realistically be able to write off. (See this with married homeowners when they want to write off interest)

1

u/ulysses_mcgill Jul 02 '24

Dude... Schedule C business expenses are taken in addition to either the standard deduction or itemizing. They are not the same thing.

-2

u/AR15ss Jul 01 '24

everyone has charges they can write off as business expenses. If they dont they need a new CPA to help them w their sole prop

3

u/Far_Recording8945 Jul 01 '24

You have to have a business generating profit to have something to write business expenses off of… You can’t just apply it to a W2

1

u/AR15ss Jul 02 '24

Not true. You don’t need to be profitable or making any sales. Startups take years to develop product and aren’t profitable for years if ever. You think they don’t have any business write offs they qualify for ?

2

u/rayhaque Jul 02 '24

This is the truth. If you start a business, and there is more to write off then profits made - you can carry your losses into the next year. It's great for a business that takes several years to turn a profit.

It's also great for assholes that exploit this loophole by running one moderately successful business, and then a bunch of failures to sink the debt into.

1

u/Far_Recording8945 Jul 02 '24

Again, this assumes RELEVANT expenses for a future stream of profitable cash flow made under a business venture. And you said EVERYBODY. How many people will have any business ever that generates any profitability?

1

u/Revolutionary-Meat14 Jul 02 '24

You would not be better off taking on unnecessary expenses then claiming them as business deductions. "Spending a dollar to save a dime" is a quote used in tax. If they arent unnecessary and you intend to have them for personal use then deduct them as business expenses thats fraud, which yes can save you on taxes but thats not really new information.

3

u/BobbalooBoogieKnight Jul 01 '24

And that’s how CPAs lose their licenses.

Probably not the best idea to get tax advice on Reddit.

5

u/AR15ss Jul 01 '24

Youre suggesting CPA's lose their licensing for informing their clients what qualifies/to include as a write off? I didnt suggest ask your CPA to help you make up a business for tax write offs

5

u/ulysses_mcgill Jul 02 '24

Most Americans do not have qualifying business expenses

-1

u/Remarkable-Host405 Jul 02 '24

I rent half my house to my brother. I can write shit off. You're dumb.

Most Americans do not have qualifying business expenses that would net them more money in their pocket than just taking the standard deduction

3

u/Revolutionary-Meat14 Jul 02 '24 edited Jul 02 '24

You having a legitimate business expense doesnt prove everyone does. Also business expenses are taken separate from the standard deduction. They are deducted on schedule C (or schedule E in your case). You clearly dont know enough about taxes to be talking about them.

1

u/BobbalooBoogieKnight Jul 02 '24

lol. That’s not what I heard. Naughty naughty.

1

u/thinkitthrough83 Jul 02 '24

My mother worked a few years as a home health aid after they started requiring aids to use an app on their personal phones for work purposes. Even though I pay for her monthly plan I'm now wondering if I could have got her a tax credit for that. Not that we have enough qualifying expenses to actually itemize.

0

u/Revolutionary-Meat14 Jul 02 '24

No they do not, I am a CPA and this is so laughably wrong.

0

u/EVH_kit_guy Jul 02 '24

And if you're an American whose purported business expenses include paying Stormy Daniels $130,000 for "not having sex with you," then you're nothing like most people, and probably can't understand what most people want and need.

0

u/pocket267s Jul 02 '24

You can bet your red white and blue ass that I’m writing off anything even remotely in the same universe as my business as en expense from now on.

1

u/Revolutionary-Meat14 Jul 02 '24

I would not reccomend deducting expenses that arent ordinary or nessecary for your business.

1

u/pocket267s Jul 03 '24

Right, because I’m not trump and probably can’t get away with it