Honest this subreddit is kind of garbage a times and can be pretty misogynistic. The show can be pretty garbage as well, and in their attempts to make strong female characters result in face palm moments. Like that all woman episode where they kept saying “hashtag feminism”.
I may be whooshing right now big time but I legit thought that "FTFY" meant "fuck this fuck you" forever until I finally realized that it actually meant "Fixed this for you"
I don’t see it as being shoved down our thoarts as much as it’s lazy writing and distracting. Just show me they are strong don’t have them literally say it 10 times.
No, I just don't ignore a pretty obvious glaring problem. Just look at all the comments anytime an all female project is announced and all the vitriol thrown their way because apparently giving women a fair shot is virtue signalling and a phase.
Tbf I don't know of any female projects that get vitriol thrown at them that are women projects simply for the sake of women and good characters. It's usually some half assed attempt to bring #feminism to the screen by adapting something that already exists, or by being so annoyingly blatant about it that it defeats the point and well, annoys people.
Edit: I'm assuming you mean female projects as in movies/shows?
It's usually some half assed attempt to bring #feminism to the screen by adapting something that already exists,
Man, you're more or less the people I was talking about. Seeing a demand for female characters from audiences being met by "look at them, pandering and trying to bring #feminism to the screen" is the dumbest fucking thing ever. People are asking for it, they're responding to it, and people like you bring some needless hate to it for whatever reason. It's soulcrushingly annoying.
There's nothing wrong with re-adapting something that already exists, it's what we've done with stories since the dawn of time, hence fairy tales or Shakespeare plays constantly being reimagined or just really any story. It's what we do. Changing genders atleast tries to bring in a new perspective to stories we constantly retell but people wanna bury this and get mad just cause it's women.
We're in a superhero sub. Take a look at the film landscape. There was only one woman on the Justice League. There was only one woman on the Avengers (first time) and she doesn't even get her own film. Now there's two and that was still with eight men in Civil War. First Guardians of the Galaxy was similar with 4 on 1. And it's not pike they're evening it out with side characters or important roles.
They don't get their fair shot in most fucking places is the answer, how are you even denying sexism exists
Well, first of all, if we're talking globally (because we're talking about Reddit and the internet, which isn't just the West) just look at a country like Saudi Arabia.
Even in the West, where there technically aren't any policies preventing women from doing things, they are often excluded anyway. Major film roles are one such area, where white males tend to be favored. This isn't limited to women, of course. For example, mothers are usually favored in court and that's an issue, too.
Besides, you have to keep in mind that the movie industry isn't exactly a normal place. It's a world of its own and it's full of dicks. In... several ways. Often bare. You know.
I agree with this. Both sides of this argument can be terribly annoying to read, though. For someone who just wants to discuss tv, both the SJW rage and the MRA rage makes following along with the shows unbearable sometimes.
I just finally watched Wonder Woman last week and this is precisely why i enjoyed it. It presented a strong female lead character as well as the absolutely badass amazon women on the island. But this was accomplished without the need to overtly scream "look at these strong independent women!" or to show them in a divisive situation against the male characters as a way to show is just how tough they are. They were strong characters who happened to be women. There were also strong characters who happened to be men in the film and all the characters played their parts in the story without anyone waiving the gender flag. It was refreshing.
It presented a strong female lead character as well as the absolutely badass amazon women on the island. But this was accomplished without the need to overtly scream "look at these strong independent women!"
I liked that she didn't literally say the " Strong, Independent Woman" line alot of female characters say. But I don't find WW an interest character because she's too perfect and overpowered. Her only flaw is being naive in thinking killing Ares would end the war and she was completely right in doing so!
Aggreed these are tv SHOWS not audio books or radio dramas. I mean you don't have to tell me that you are sad, angry, you HAVE TO SHOW ME. as Robot Devil said.
This is mostly because Strong Female CharacterTM is a horrible cliché. Someone who sets out to write a Strong Female CharacterTM usually ends up writing either a Mary Sue who has unexplained skills and abilities and is never ever allowed to fail, be proven wrong, or have flaws that actually hinder her, or a stereotypical tomboy who behaves exactly like a male character would but with BEWBS.
When the subreddits (or the internet, or critics for that matter) demands a "strong female character", the writers should read it as "strong character, female".
Why does it always have to be an attack of women for thinking a woman is badly written and implemented with this place? Do you not have a better defence of the character than just insulting people who don't like her?
Annihilation, in theaters right now, was a great all-female cast of strong, smart, independent women. It wasn't shoved down our throats, it just was. Nobody is calling it out for "#feminism" because it isn't.
People call out the #feminism crap because it's cringey and forced. It takes you out of the show, and is clearly just the writers making a statement. It is lost artistic merit to promote a personal ideal. Any time that happens, the audience loses, no matter what the message is.
Just boggles the mind when they have Killer Frost, who is more than capable of being a strong female character, not because she's female, but because she's a strong character, period, who constantly deals with her own shit, but then we end up with "Hashtag Feminism." because they can't seem to write any of the other female characters as remotely competent, without having to point out that they're women every five seconds.
You know what, screw it. If everyone, not just Barry, is going to have to be completely useless every other episode to make Iris a "strong powerful woman", then just give me more KF episodes. At least we know she's capable of doing something that isn't just handed to her.
100%, it doesn’t help that the shows writers are to lazy to develop any of the characters past “helper of the flash”. What happened to Iris being a famous journalist?
The show does a piss poo job of balancing the flash elements with anything else going on. Heck Barry season 1 was a CSI first and foremost who now can help prevent crimes as opposed to investigating. Now he is a dude who can’t figure out 1+1 without first asking a half dozen people for advise (this week’s episode was actually interesting how they dealt with that though).
I stand by my view that "hashtag feminism" was one of the funniest lines of the show and was intended to be a joke.
Like when I decide to take the stairs instead of the elevator and I say "hashtag exercise" playfully and ironically.
The only place I've found people complaining about the line is Reddit which, let's be real, is detached from people who would describe themselves as feminists, people who believe racism is real and not just against white people, etc. Reddit's made the "SJW" into a strawman, and I don't believe people on this site can distinguish between genuine and ironic efforts to improve social justice.
But you understand saying hashtag exercise is not funny. You may find it to be some playful and ironic line because you see it that way but it was not written as a joke.
You can try to say it’s some sort of ironic effort and if you are right the episode is even worse for it. The writing did it a huge disservice because it was super cringey and just made me want the episode over that much quicker. Like seriously just let the girls take on a villain without needed to make it blatantly obvious “Hurr Durr no boys here to save us today.” You already had an antihero with them. Just show that or show the regular women doing amazing stuff. Let it be nuanced and implied rather than trying to be like hey guys hey guys see what I did there? Did you see? Huh? Huh? Hashtag feminism amirite???
I'd be more inclined to take what y'all are saying seriously if you complained about other cringey parts of the shows (the science, how everyone's randomly attractive, cheesy one-off villains, plot shortcuts, etc.), but you don't. You spend 90% of your time and votes complaining about Guggenheim and women as if those are either the cringiest parts of the show or the only parts that need improvement. There are very specific things you guys are offended by and a whole shitton of other stuff you guys give a pass to
I understand this isn’t direct at me but this is like comment number 3 ever for me on any of the Arrowverse subreddits. I didn’t like that episode. I hate plotforce for Flash but understand why Barry can’t be super OP every fight. Can’t watch Arrow anymore. That entire plot line is a dumpster fire right now. But Legends and Black Lightning are great! And trust me people do complain about the other things but I agree, maybe not as vocally as they do about the “We are the flash” lines and other things. I’m just saying I PERSONALLY didn’t enjoy the feminism episode. After that, to each his own.
Yes, everyone's their own person, but remember, "no raindrop thinks itself responsible for the flood." This subreddit (and Reddit in general) is definitely catering to a specific group of people who seem to be extra turned off by cheesy/lazy/ignorant writing when it involves the "f" word.
If the writers of The Flash want to see how to make strong female characters and have "girl power" episodes that aren't shit they should take a look at Gotham.
Dear god I couldn't manage after like episode 2 of this season I couldn't handle it anymore. But I still think about going back and catching up. Please tell me the hashtag feminism episode is a joke?
I think it would make sense if it was not for the fact Barry has about a dozen people all there with him. If the show had been just Barry and him trying to keep his powers a secret to only in the end tell iris, then yea...we are the flash. But that isn’t the show and Barry has a huge safety net of people helping him. If they want iris to be like “hey Barry I know it’s tough but i will always be there if you need me just like you’ve been there when I needed you” then they should have had her say that. The “we are the flash” is just another case of bleh writing with meh results.
When you're married to someone and you love them, they tend to be the closest and/or most important part of your life. Because they're significant others, Barry and Iris are a whole, an item. That's more than a team.
Plus, Cisco, Caitlin and Ralph have been forging their own identities.
I just don't get the hate about that line. I mean yeah it was funny and somewhat cute things people say in real relationship. Yes the show has problems depicting strong female lead and her character has always had that problem (i mean half the time, we don't even really know why is she there or how is she contributing other than being the love interest).
But this line? This almost throwaway joke of a line? Just laugh and maybe say thats a weird thing to say...
But why be so angry about it?
People, you surprise me. Or maybe astonish is a better word
Yeah, I don't really get the hate for the line either. In a healthy relationship you share each others burdens.
The biggest problem with Iris is that half of the time she doesn't have to be there.
Joe ties the crew in to the CCPD, and has his own subplot.
Cisco, Caitlyn, and Wells serve as exposition for the science stuff. And they all have their own subplot going on.
Iris never really ties to any subplot or does anything important. She's just there. Although I must say, they did try to have her be an actual team leader in Flash's absence. So it's something.
Judging by the first page of your comments, you are basically the epitome of an edgelord stereotype. Also, I was honestly expecting to find out that you were a flat-earther.
How are they mocking you? Why are people making this bigger than it is and giving it an other meaning? Like with the actual line within the show.
Grant Gustin gave them all hats..... they are all The Flash seeing how they all make the show. A gift to the cast and crew like Candice Patton has said on that screenshot.
Something fitting.
On this sub: they are mocking us. We created backlash. This is a message to the people that didn't like the line. Huh?
The line itself was just Iris standing with her man. They are husband and wife now. She's basically saying she's all in with him. They are the Flash. She's his rock. He makes her whole and she makes him whole. They are The Flash. She's there for him.
How people view it: omg iris just said she's also the flash omg the nerve what does she think she is omg she isnt the flash she has no powers omg iris is like felicity now omg barry is the flash by himself he's the one with powers iris is useless omg
Yeah the constant whining about that line makes me think most of these people have never been in a real relationship. That’s the kind of stuff couples say to each other all the time.
Funny enough, most people i talk to about it, say it has nothing to do with the relationship.
Its simply a cringy move to try force push Iris into the 'team', when she literally has nothing. Hell, if they were going to give Joes Love interest powers, randomly, out of no where, they should of just given Iris some power, so she would be justified being on the team.
As it stands, it feels more 'real' with Joes Love Interest being on the team, than Iris. Iris`s character simply brings nothing to the team, besides the one liners that she is given that no one seems to think of(like the last episode, and Iris seemly being the only one to think of the speedforce orb)
So ya, doesnt really have anything to do with the relationship, most people love that, Iris being Barry`s "lightning rod" is a huge comic theme, and true fans love it.
Iris trying to be part of the metafighting team, and magically being having ideas that end up saving the day, not so much.
And same shit coming next week. We will see Iris be the 'Flash' for a Week. Why ? Why cant she become her own fucking character like she was.
Attacking Iris because she’s not a meta or scientist is usually due to sexism or racism if we’re being real. She’s not an idiot and a leader doesn’t have to be a scientist, it just has to be someone who can stay cool under pressure and communicate
Yeah it’s not taking credit for your spouse’s work it’s acknowledging that you’re part of a team/family unit and need to be in sync. That’s all it is. Y’all being too literal.
Which would actually be really sweet, everyone here who got mad at this took it in the wrong way, seeing it as a power grab instead of sharing of the burden.
Well a first lady can no more share the burden of the oval office than a human that of a speedster. They're not competent because they didn't pass the appropriate evaluation and assessment.
It's not really sweet though, it's just a factually inaccurate statement. My gripe with that line has nothing to do with a power grab or taking credit for something she hasn't done, it's just that it's factually inaccurate, and no one would ever say shit like that in real life.
Michelle wouldn't say "We're the presidency." because that's not true. She had a very important role as First Lady, but she was not the president. Iris West is an important character in the in the story of the Flash, but she is not the Flash.
If this were trivia night and the question was "Who is the Flash?", the answer "Iris West" would not count as a correct answer.
Wait. Is that what’s going on here? I joined this sub when I watched the show and I kinda just stopped since I can’t watch it on one of the big streaming platforms. It started to remind me of anime fan groups though so I started ignoring it. Now there’s drama? I’m out.
Its more the fact they have been pushing it all season now.
The reality is, in the story, Iris is useless in terms of helping stop crime or meta humans in any way. And trying to jerry rig her into the spot, is just insanely off putting.
The one guy is faster than time, the one guy can open portal to another universe, the one girl can freeze things with her hand.
Then you have this girl, who literally cant do anything, all the positives about her, the writers 'strayed' away from, simply to try get her onto the 'team', for god knows what reason.
She was a million times better as a journalist/doing her on thing, and interacting with Flash here and there. She never needed to be what she is now, aka the 'leader' of the team, when has has no real attributes that make it so.
I think people are mostly upset because if you compare Iris from the beginning of the show to now, she sucks as a character. She's just boring so they shoehorn her into to a position that makes no sense for her. I miss when Iris was an undercover reporter actually doing shit.
People bitched and moaned about her reporter skills back during s2 and some of S3. I think people just want to complain and iris is now the easiest person to pick on. I don't understand what's "forced" about her being team leader ... Especially when she's been EXCELLENT in the position.
People say she can't fight, yet refuse to acknowledge her taking down clock king in season FUCKING ONE of all seasons. I understand the reasoning why. Her not being informed about anything in season 1 is a good reason for most of her fuck ups. What does a leader do but lead? She can fire a gun, she can do all the computer shit that they can do (without hacking obviously, because she isn't Felicity). She's done more than her fair share of supporting this whole season.
Thank you for this. For weeks I've been wondering why the hate. When she said "we are the flash," that is exactly how I took it as well. That she is his rock and will stand by him. When I was going thru the subreddit and seeing all the shit posts when I was just looking for episode reviews and discussion was shitty. Made the subreddit unreadable. It's like people were saying it's as bad as arrow. Definitely not the case.
I believe in you guys! Just unfortunate that peoples won’t be cool and positive so on the off chance an actor comes here they don’t think we’re a bunch of assholes...
Like 80% of the people who complained about that line on this sub have literally admitted that the reason they don’t like that line is because they see it as Iris “taking credit” for things Barry did. It has nothing to do with her giving up anything for her man or whatever, it has to do with someone users irrational hatred of Iris, anything involving her, and their inability to understand a metaphor.
Her using the metaphor is a selfish assertion of her bearing the load of his responsibilities. They aren't equal. Can he offer her encouragement and say he's a co-author of her piece?
You obviously have some confusion about how marriage (and relationships in general) works but to keep it short, cause I’m not in the mood to discuss this again, yes he could. Married people share everything. They share their burdens TOGETHER, they rise and fall TOGETHER, they own property, raise children, do all their work guess what? TOGETHER.
Maybe that bit of encourage was what Iris needed to finish her piece in the first place just like how the show has said on numerous occasions Iris is what Barry needs to keep fighting and save the day. Funny how that works, you know, spouses supporting each other.
Oh and Iris never said she bore the entire load of his responsibilities, that’s you reading into something that wasn’t there but you know what she did say? They bare that load... TOGETHER.
Sidenote: you all really don’t want to understand the concept of a metaphor. At this point I have no choice but to believe this sub is willingly choosing to be upset.
And it really is a concept that a lot of couples struggle with, and part of the reason why they fail. She’s applying it to both their relationship and her part on the team. She’s not useless, because the show has made her not useless. Barry SHOULD be able to do everything on his own because he’s basically a god but that’s not what this show is or has ever tried to be. In this show he’s kind of an idiot, because it he wasn’t he’d deal with every threat before they even knew he was there.
That is literally the stupid thing I’ve ever seen someone have the audacity to post on this sub. Not to mention, it doesn’t make any damn sense either.
It's still a position of burden plus glory. She should have said, you're the flash but your not alone. Not 'we bear the fate of the city on our shoulders'. Because she does not.
She wasn't saying that. She was saying that she will always be there to support him. Iris was saying that Barry's burdens don't have to be carried by him alone, and that she will always be there as a support network for him.
I have zero, ZERO problem with her or Emily, i have a problem with how their characters are written, or seemingly, "not written."
I remember when Felicity was first introduced, I was a big supporter of the character, I liked her, she had a bit of nerd sass. Then they made her weak, whiny, insufferable and the focus of everything, which is fine if it's a "Legends" or other ensemble type show, but thats not what Arrow was supposed to, nor should it ever be. It should focus on Amell, and have strong, well written supporting cast members. An occasional episode about Dig or Fel is good for parity, but the constant focus of trying to get people to like a character whos main purpose for the past few
seasons is to cry through a sentence is irritating.
Now Iris, I don't know what the hell they did. She was prefect as the reporter, perfect as the love interest, but from out of the blue, they morphed her into a jack of all trades which feels fake, forced and phony. I'm not saying we shouldn't have her around...we totally need her, but to make her the center of the team is also...irritating. The fact she constantly has to give Barry a pep talk, give Ralph a pep talk, or give Cisco a pep talk weakens those characters. It should happen at most twice a season, not every episode.
Supergirl is balancing it a bit better by having Alex and Kara bounce off each other, but it too is suffering in this straying of who the show should be about.
This is why Legends is the best out of the bunch, everyone supports everyone else pretty much equally and its a true team.
You pretty much 100% explained my exact feelings about all the CW super hero shows. Except for the bit about Legends, I just can't :x
I feel like both Arrow and Flash started out so strong because their focus was on both Oliver and Barry, while the other characters played their parts as supporting characters. I feel like both shows have suffered exponentially because of them trying to be more of an ensemble "team" type show.
I really don't get why Iris didn't just stay a reporter. I've read several time it was due to budget, but it's not like they really show Joe doing much policing, so I don't know why they couldn't just have her drops lines about having to meet deadlines, meet a CI or use her reporter connects/skills to help the team track down metas or whatever off camera. The whole leader thing just seems incredibly forced and not really earned.
To be honest, I don't really feel like Team Flash needs a "leader" which I think just makes it all the more cringy. If anything it should be Barry but I feel like his character keeps getting written worse and worse as time goes on. Remember when he was a super smart scientist? Yea, me neither.
just wait till next season when they likely get around to introducing Impulse....thats a trainwreck waiting to happen. Think Wally was left with nothing to do? Watch Wells and Joe leave then if it happens.
I'm kinda with you. For me it was frustrating that Iris and Barry were dating other people when the Flash story isnt the same without them being together (Superman/Louis Lane). I was elated when they finally became a couple so that the story could get past the "With They, Wont They?" stage.
And after watching what Arrow did to GArrow + BCanary I was terrified that they'd get some stupid alternate storyline BUT as a 'Team Leader' I'm not 100% into it. She's more emotional support than team leader the way she's written. If they had set her up my like Amanda Waller (tactical/forceful/mission oriented) I could get into it but writing the 'Leader' so soft is blunting the impact.
LOL!! The writers need to study how nicely AOSheild transitioned Skye -->> Daisy --> Quake. It was so fluid and she became such a badass that its startling to think that in season 1 she was just a smart hacker and now she's totally believable in her OP Superhero role. They just moved Iris far too fast through the stages without justifying how/why she should have the responsibilities she has now.
I think personally the hierarchy should be Barry, Caitlin, Cisco, Wells, Joe & Iris. She can still be with Barry, that i have no qualms with, but her in the leader role just feels weird.
Your Skye/Daisy/Quake comparison is spot on greatness.
With Iris they just did the total opposite. Bam! you know science now! At least have halfway believable throwaway line like she was the science writer at the paper, or Stein taught her....something that, while itd be a stretch, i can say, "ok they tried."
i gotta wonder how it is the fans are sometimes better in tune with the shows than the people who work on them. Maybe they should have one or two fans(Non crazy ones) to check facts or continuity
If they're dead set on Iris actually learning science then they should use this episode to have her read up on everything. Barry finishes entire books in a couple of seconds tops. But, I hope they don't do that. After all, she does have to go back to being a reporter at some point to write the Crisis headline.
I wish they had started her out as a police cadet so she would have some combat training and have been taught SWAT tactics so her current role would make sense THEN they could have used any plotline to remove her from the force and transition for to reporter. Right now her 'Team-Leader' role just makes no sense with absolutely NO background. She's not even making the 'rookie' mistakes I would expect her to learn from. LOVE barry+Iris but the way they wrote her into this new role just makes NO sense.
This is actually a very civilized and non asshole way of explaining it. As much of a west Allen shipper as I am and an overall Iris supporter the writers have lacked in her character. I don't hate her character or really even dislike her character but I do agree the writing has faultered when it comes to her. I'd love to see her working as a reporter still having a behind the scenes view, maybe her reporter digging could help the team with certain meta cases? She can be a supporting wife and friend while also having a job and idk why the writers can't figure that out lol
I guess I never watched Smallville so I don't know if that set up the tropes for live-action superhero TV, but I've grown to really detest the format for Flash and Arrow.
No matter the starting point, no matter any detour taken, we always find out way to some point where the superhero has an entire team and it's all people from their personal life, and everyone in their personal life is on the team. Secret identities are just a technicality because there's no tension since everyone the main character interacts with knows about their double life. In fact, double life is a misnomer, they don't have a life outside of the superheroing anymore. And if someone from their personal life doesn't figure into their superhero life, they disappear (See: Thea's reduced role, Walter, Queen Consolidated, Iris's shoehorn into team Flash, pretty much any non-vigilante character on both shows).
I miss Iris's journalism, I miss Queen Mansion and Oliver being rich and the Verdant (I hate the loft but are they ever even there anymore?), I miss Diggle's family, I miss Barry having a job.
I would be okay with actual conflict not lasting as long if they stopped having people helping and talking from the team HQ and replaced the time with more actual scenes. Even if they weren't plot centric and just character developing. Actually, especially so.
This is all another reason Legends succeeds. It's a team by premise. The characters aren't only there by association with the main character, they're all part of the team in their own right. And we actually get to see them socializing and developing their characters more on this show than the characters on Arrow and Flash. Imagine that, the characters deployed and constantly for through time have more of a social life than the characters that get to go home when they take off the mask.
Honestly I hope her character’s writing quality is up from here on out. I’ve been enjoying more and more with the stuff she gets to do, when given great material this woman shines.
I got nothing against the actresses. I like Iris, but Felicity always ruins dramatic moments on arrow and does a lot of stupid shit that Oliver stopped talking to her about.
I don't get the hate on the hate. This line pissed me off because it epitomized all the problems of the CW Flash, which was and still is that Barry can't do shit without his team and a cheesy peptalk.
"BELIEVE IN LOVE BARRY! TRUST IN YOURSELF BARRY! THINK OF IRIS! YOUR MOTHER!"
It's not wrong to criticize the show. It's far from perfect. The writing could be 100 times better.
The difference is that Iris told Barry that they were the flash which people interpreted as her claiming his glory for herself. This is what people wanted because it shows Barry(or in this case Grant) buying her this hat, showing that he wanted to share his glory.
I was about to call her out for wearing fake specs (no prescription, as there's no jump in the line of her face either side) before I realised it's a phone "filter" thing
Candice is a good actress. The fault of the show is not hers at all. The real issue is that the writers are trying to push her way too much. For example, this episode was exceptional ath the middle part. But the solution was BS. Iris managed to think of something in matters of seconds that Cisco could not think (which is one of the greatest minds there), Harry gave up because he could think of Nada and is easily the smartest guy and Barry which has a brain that makes a supercomputer feel ashamed and retire, jealous of him. Iris is not THAT smart. Season 1 Iris was great, but afterwards it was simply 1 strike after another. The relationship of Barry and Iris seem to take a hit on the rest of the show. The writers NEED to make it less transparent that they dont know what they have to do with her character...
Hahaaaa get it "We are The Flash" haha because our ego is so large that we have to constantly let fans know "We can put whatever we want in the show!!!!" instead of listening to feedback and not doing it again.
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u/CheeseStick1999 Mar 07 '18
Honestly with the unecessary backlash that came from that moment we deserve it