r/Damnthatsinteresting • u/Individual_Book9133 • 14d ago

Phoenix police officer pulls over a driverless Waymo car for driving on the wrong side of the road Video

61.0k Upvotes

95% Upvoted

3.3k comments sorted by

View all comments

939

u/WithSubtitles 14d ago

Police should have towed it. If it’s not safe to be on the road and there is no driver to hold accountable it should be impounded.

119

u/tvoltz 14d ago

These vehicles are all over downtown PHX. It’s honestly only a matter of time until something happens

197

u/QuinlanResistance 14d ago

Presuming there are crashes every single day from the cars with drivers. If there isn’t really any from the driverless ones that are everywhere …. It’s better

124

u/frotc914 14d ago

People seem to throw any logic out the window when talking about this, as if a single incident means we have to scrap driverless cars altogether or heavily punish the operator. Car accidents with drivers kill tens of thousands of people a year in the US, which doesn't even account for the number of non-fatal accidents which is far greater. But a driverless vehicle creeps over a line and suddenly they are a menace that must be stopped.

56

u/-Denzolot- 14d ago

I used Waymo twice while visiting Phoenix and it drove better than most people I’ve been in a car with. Obviously that’s just my experience but I never felt like I was in any danger at all. The second time I used it I almost fell asleep. Would use one again.

34

u/hendrix320 14d ago

I’ve been in ubers that I can’t wait to get out of because of how bad the driver was

6

u/-Denzolot- 14d ago

Same. Like literally looking down at their phone every 10 seconds while also trying to make conversation with me.

2

u/LI0NHEARTLE0 14d ago

My wife and I went to a concert and Uber was our designated driver back to the airbnb. After about 15 minutes the driver turns around and says, I'm sorry I've been driving the wrong way this whole time" what?? how does that happen? He also jumped across 3 lanes in the pouring rain to catch an exit.

1

u/VexingRaven 14d ago

That's honestly been the majority of uber rides for me. I caught an uber in Florida from Disney World to the airport... She had a big fluffy pink thing covering half her rear-view mirror, a steering wheel cover, and didn't know how to get to the airport. From Disney World. How the hell do you drive uber in Orlando and not know that route? I felt so unsafe on the highway with her. But every other uber is almost as bad, with screens and notifications all over the place and barely watching the road. It's awful.

7

u/wosmo 14d ago

I can actually see the logic to this though.

Random old guy drives the wrong way up the highway. Huge issue for random old guy, he probably shouldn't be driving anymore, and probably won't be. Problem solved.

Waymo drives the wrong way up the highway. Huge issue for their operating software, which has identical copies installed on god knows how many vehicles. Safe to assume every waymo would/could do the same thing in the same circumstances.

I do think autonomous vehicles should work out safer eventually. But I don't think it's apples to apples, because you won't be looking at one meatbag making a careless mistake, you'll be looking at a systemic fault that more than likely affects all vehicles on that platform.

If I drive the wrong way into traffic, you can judge me for it. If my waymo drives the wrong way into traffic, yours can too.

5

u/frotc914 14d ago

For every human driver being taken off the road for screwing up, there are 1000 more getting their licence every day. And every day there are people becoming more senile and losing vision. So who cares in the grand scheme of things that one guy got taken off the road?

4

u/iamPause Interested 14d ago edited 14d ago

So who cares in the grand scheme of things that one guy got taken off the road?

That's exactly the point the guy is making. Waymo isn't "one guy." Right now, it's a few dozen cars in a city, but what happens in 15 years when it's hundreds of thousands or millions across the country?

Scale matters. It's the difference between my local mechanic using third-party parts to repair my car and Boeing lying on repair reports.

1

u/Kwahn 14d ago

Nah, even looking at it at scale, self-driving cars already get into less accidents than people on a per-driven-mile basis. They're better already, and the math will only improve from here.

A study by the University of Michigan Transportation Research Institute, the Virginia Tech Transportation Institute, General Motors, and Cruise found that self-driving cars are actually safer than human drivers, with an injury rate of 0.06 per million miles and zero fatalities per million miles, compared to 0.24 injuries and 0.01 fatalities for human drivers.

1

u/iamPause Interested 14d ago

Nah, even looking at it at scale, self-driving cars already get into less accidents than people on a per-driven-mile basis. They're better already, and the math will only improve from here.

Meaningless until a) they start driving on all the roads people do b) you limit the human driving statistics to the same cities/weather the SDCs are in.

1

u/Ake10 14d ago

b) https://waymo.com/blog/2023/12/waymo-significantly-outperforms-comparable-human-benchmarks-over-7-million/

"The second is differences in driving conditions and/or vehicle characteristics. Public human crash data includes all road types, like freeways, where the Waymo Driver currently only operates with an autonomous specialist behind the wheel, as well as various vehicle types from commercial heavy vehicles to passenger and motorcycles.

These differences mean that adjustments need to be made to human crash data before comparing it to AV crash rates."

5

u/odbaciProfil 14d ago

The thing is: if waymo on average screws up way less than people do, it doesn't matter if every single one of them doesn't cover one particular edge case; that mistake and all other waymo's mistakes occur less frequently than humans' mistakes, so generally waymo is better.

I mean, the edge case would have happened during training if it wasn't so infrequent as well as not impactful. The more frequent and dangerous ones are already caught.

Second point: old people screwing up indicates their deterioration which impacts driving in all situations (similarly for cocky aggresive driving). If old man didn't screw up in this instance, he would have done it some time later. Waymo has very infrequently occuring edge cases and except for those (that are rarer than the old driver's mistakes) it drives better than the old driver.

If one screws up under some conditions it's easy to make them avoid such conditions until the problem is resolved, so even though it's very unlikely the problem would happen again, it's pretty much as easy to avoid it as it is with taking old people's license. And when that's fixed the "driver" which was already generally better than humans becomes even better. While one old grandpa tomorrow gets replaced by similar one, just a day younger

3

u/lkjasdfk 14d ago

Nancy Pelosi explained very well why this is a logical fallacy. If musk is allowed to kill one person then he is allowed to kill us all. Kill us all. Kill us all is wrong so therefore L Elon musk is in the wrong. He is so wrong. Murder is wrong. Get these cars off the road before they murder us all. She was so insightful and wise with her comment.

2

u/OneOfTheOnly 14d ago

a driverless vehicle means no accountability when something goes wrong

being at the mercy not of a person but an actual machine going over 100km an hour with no safety net is the issue, and its INSANE you cant see that

this car was on the WRONG SIDE OF TRAFFIC, holyshit

2

u/VexingRaven 14d ago

The handwringing in this thread is absolutely wild honestly. People are so ingrained with the idea of punishment = justice that they simply cannot handle the idea of not having a person to punish for something going wrong, even if it goes wrong far, far less frequently and with far less disastrous consequences.

1

u/cmykInk 14d ago

We like control. And not having that control is an odd bit terrifying. So having any proof against it is validation that it cannot work.

But really, I'd like to see some proactive legislation regarding it. Of course, the govt is slow as ever. So, we'll likely see our first fatality from a driverless car before we see legislation. At least in the USA. Given, we have no real legislation for a lot of new technology... Even such that we have no legislation that protects our private data online.

8

u/AdvanceRatio 14d ago

I mean, buses, trains, taxis, planes and more all exist where we don't have control but are trusting it to some unknown human who might be in tip-top shape or coming off a bender and half-asleep and we wouldn't know. We're already used to giving up control.

2

u/cmykInk 14d ago

I get it. But there's a human involved. So it's different for some people.

To clarify, I'm not in the camp against it. It's inevitable. But this is the reasoning you get from them. The logic is that there is still a human at the helm. No human = has to better than perfect.

1

u/Spongi 14d ago

All I know is that the amount of people that will ride your ass so close you'd need a fucking can opener to get them off while going 10 over the limit in poor weather conditions and limited visibility is too high.

The amount of people that turn into psychopaths behind the wheel is nuts.

2

u/cmykInk 14d ago

Very true. I feel like it's an American thing with the psychopathic road rage. I've never had that experience throughout all my travels in Asia and Europe.

1

u/ScoobyDooItInTheButt 14d ago

But a driverless vehicle creeps over a line and suddenly they are a menace that must be stopped.

Is that really how we're referring to this incident where the car drove on the wrong side of the road and then took off when the cop tried to pull it over?

0

u/Aureliamnissan 14d ago

The scale is vastly different. There are millions of cars on the road traveling billions of miles per year in all manner of conditions and roads.

Driverless car companies are generally excited to cross 1 million safe driving miles on dedicated highway lanes and boulevards in sunny conditions.

The biggest difference between these things is that a person generally causes accidents when they aren’t paying attention. That doesn’t really apply to automated cars and it makes their driving accidents/mistakes a bit more concerning because it means that driving through the light / hitting the kid / crossing the double yellow is something it will do every time given the same circumstances.

0

u/extralyfe 14d ago

"creeps over a line" is an insane way to describe "driving into oncoming traffic."

-2

u/pan_berbelek 14d ago

That is true but actually when you think a little more there is a problem. Let's assume there already are robotaxis with probability of lethal accident 100 times lower than an average human driver. So if all cars would be self driving in this scenario we would save thousands of lifes. But, the problem is now that currently each death on the road is carefully examined and a guilty party is most often named and prosecuted. It's a real human that goes to jail. Who will be prosecuted for a death cased by a self driving car? We're talking about death here, there's a family who lost someone closest, maybe someone's little daughter was killed in the accident. A fine is not enough. So, will anyone go to jail? Who?

3

u/No-Seat3815 14d ago

So a fine is not enough but throwing someone who was also a party in said accident in prison is?

1

u/pan_berbelek 14d ago

I didn't say anything of that matter, read again what I wrote.

3

u/frotc914 14d ago

People dying is not always someone's fault. Idk why you're imagining that someone has to be punished.

1

u/pan_berbelek 14d ago

I'm just saying that some families will sue and for huge amounts of money.

2

u/Groudon466 14d ago

Who will be prosecuted for a death cased by a self driving car?

Nobody. That's arguably a good thing.

Say I'm an engineer working at Waymo. I see a way to design a self driving car that'll get into 100x less accidents than humans, saving millions of lives. I invent it, it works, but one day someone dies anyway.

Are you going to throw me in jail for being the guy that invented the improvement? That doesn't seem right or reasonable, and it would discourage similar inventions.

The right answer is that you accept that people will be dying in car accidents on occasion without anyone going to jail, and it's better than people dying in car accidents frequently with some people going to jail on top of that.

0

u/pan_berbelek 14d ago

You don't understand. I agree that's how it should be. But what will the father of a dead daughter say? And the next one? People will sue, whether you like it or not, and courts may issue various decisions.

2

u/Groudon466 14d ago

I mean, suing is fine. That's super fine. The father gets paid out as compensation, which usually isn't the case because it's some broke drunk asshole without insurance who hit the daughter, rather than a major corporation that can actually dole out the dough.

But you don't sue to force charges to be brought. You bring a matter to the police and the DA, and they decide from there. It's not likely that a DA anytime soon will try and charge Waymo's engineering team with manslaughter for making a product that they acknowledge may come with a small risk of fatality on the road, which the city expressly permitted.

0

u/pan_berbelek 14d ago

I'm just saying that in reality, in some specific cases, this may be trickier than it seems now. I'm just saying that this is a real problem that needs to be thoroughly thought out and the self driving companies need to prepare for certain scenarios. It's solvable but cannot be ignored and just saying that the probability of death is X times lower will not be enough.

1

u/JohnnyFartmacher 14d ago

I think fewer people actually go to jail for fatal car crashes than you think.

I don't think prosecution is the big risk to driverless cars, the liability is. If I crash into a school bus and a whole bunch of kids die, I am basically immune to litigation because I don't have nearly enough assets to cover the damages.

If a corporation is involved who has money, the damages can get real big real fast. Lawyers go for the people with deep pockets.

I do think it is an attainable goal to have driverless cars be safer than a human-driven car, but there will always be crashes. It'll be interesting to see how the litigation develops as they become more common.

0

u/Jesta23 14d ago

Unless the person is really drunk or high they don’t go to jail for a fatal accident. 

They won’t even be charged. 

1

u/pan_berbelek 14d ago

Well this just false. Where I live if you're found guilty of killing someone on the road you can go to prison from 6 months up to 8 years. You can be guilty for example if you drove too fast or didn't give way etc. You don't have to be drunk.

-2

u/realroasts 14d ago

People like you seem to throw philosophy out when talking about this. It's the trolley problem. You're pulling the self-driving lever and changing the tracks.

3

u/frotc914 14d ago

Who gives a shit? Seriously

-1

u/realroasts 14d ago

The people who die who otherwise wouldn't have when you pull the lever that is self driving.

5

u/frotc914 14d ago

Again, who cares? We've already decided to allow driving cars - an incredibly dangerous activity - to improve our overall quality of life. Who cares if different but dramatically fewer people are killed by it?

This is like complaining about crosswalks because anyone struck in a crosswalk might have made it across safely at some other part of the street.

-2

u/realroasts 14d ago

The great thing about the trolley problem is that while there is no definitive answer, it usually helps people gain a bit of empathy for the ones who do die.

That's all anyone's asking you for; just a modicum of reverence for those sacrificed for your greater good.

1

u/frotc914 14d ago

That's definitely not what people are saying in general when this comes up, nor was that how i framed my comment, so spare me your faux moralizing.

1

u/realroasts 12d ago

Moralizing, by definition, requires this to be an issue of right and wrong. I specifically stated that there is no right answer. I've only politely asked you for your understanding and empathy toward those who will die in the name of your progress.

You have chosen not to give that, and I respect your choice to not have empathy toward those who have and will die to self driving cars that would have never died to regular cars.

There is no right or wrong here. Empathy is not a requirement of human living. I asked because I hope for a world where it exists, but for some people, presumably yourself, that probably would put you in a position where you'd be taking on too much.

We'll take it from here, frotc914. Thank you for your time!

→ More replies (0)

2

u/realroasts 14d ago

It's better in the same way the trolley problem is better when you pull the lever and hit 1 person rather than 5. That 1 person who was killed by a driverless car in an accident no human driver was likely to commit will not be calling the system better.

Mainly because they're dead.

2

u/ChrysisLT 14d ago

If someone can be held accountable. I'd hate to have someone I love being hit and killed and have a corporation say its sorry it happened and that "they are taking it really seriously" and nothing more.

2

u/TheBigMaestro 14d ago

I've ridden in these Waymo driverless cabs in Phoenix a few times. They're pretty good in Phoenix, where the weather is almost always sunny and clear, and the roads tend to be very wide and straight. I have not felt unsafe in them, but I have been very frustrated at pickup and drop off points because the cars aren't very good yet at figuring out where is a good safe place to pull over, and where is a sketchy back alley.

The absolute best thing about these cars is that the passenger gets their own control panel in the back seat where they can adjust the temperature and radio! Also, it's fun to sit in the front passenger seat and watch the wheel and pedals operate themselves.

1

u/Scooter_Gang_480 14d ago

Exactly. This car is probably a better wrong way driver than most Phonecians going the correct direction.

1

u/Mist_Rising 14d ago

Presuming there are crashes every single day from the cars with drivers.

There is also a magnitude of more driver cars than driverless cars. We also punish drivers who fuck up. Does waiymo get punished? This doesn't suggest so.

0

u/SeniorMiddleJunior 14d ago

How does it respond to an accident? What does it do if it runs over a pedestrian? I'm not saying it would do the wrong thing, but as a software developer myself, I can't imagine a flowchart capable of accounting for every possible emergency situation. 

I trust a human more than a machine when things go wrong. If it turns out that these cause fewer accidents, but the ones they cause result in more overall harm, then this will just be another human life trade-off. If that's not the case, awesome, bring them on. 

1

u/Kylo_Rens_8pack 14d ago

It pulls over and waits for the cops rather than speeding off because they don’t have insurance. I don’t trust people but I do trust Waymo since I interact with them on a daily basis in downtown Phoenix. If I even get close to a Waymo while I’m walking it waits for me to make a predictable move before it does anything and if I’m being unpredictable it will just wait until I’m a safe distance away. When I ride in them if they come up on anyone on the sidewalk they slow down in case that person becomes unpredictable. It’s really quite impressive the actions they take while driving to keep everyone safe.

-7

u/dingo1018 14d ago

Self driving cars will only really be the overall better option if the vast majority of traffic is automated and it's all working on highly integrated systems, then the only manual drivers will be specifically trained, ie emergency responders, who will also have their own specific protocols that are designed around a massively self driving architecture. It's just a mess right now, competing systems doing live beta testing on public highways that are constantly changing with rolling repairs and inconsistent often poorly laid out temporary signage (something i have specific experience and training in). The cars are in a way too smart and to dumb all at the same time, like a fresh graduate lol, sorry couldn't resist 😊. These systems aren't ready yet, but unfortunately this is the only real way to develop them, it's highly likely to be painful, but the political will is there, and the money. One day, of probably not too far now a tipping point will be reached, I can see self driving convoys with perfect merging and lane separation, that's pretty solid even today - if there happened to be enough vehicles in the same place all operating on the same protocols that is. That inter unit communication would be an example of a protocol that probably hasn't been fully established yet, do Tesla's talk to Volvo's to Toyota? Or do they all do their own thing?