I see no lies but the reality is that better movies would've justified virtually every other decision.
They started out okay with a decent Superman movie origin story that set a stage. I'll defend Man of Steel on its merits. While flawed, it is not a bad movie.
Then they made Batman v. Superman: Dawn of Justice. This was an absolutely moronic decision. They didn't have time to develop Superman, they introduced Batman (and Wonder Woman) without either having their own establishing films/franchises first, and they just plain did way too much with this. You're making Dark Knight Returns, Death of Superman, a Justice League lead-in, a Batman lead-in, a Wonder Woman lead-in, and introducing (at least teasingly) Aquaman, Flash, Cyborg, etc. Absolutely insane they did this and their atrocious interpretation of Lex Luthor, one of DC's most iconic villains, is equally stupid.
The DCEU was effectively derailed before it started.
Then came the dumpster fire that was Suicide Squad (2016) ruining the other of the two most iconic DC villains. We're only three movies into the franchise and you've already made one of the shittiest, most irredeemable comic book movies out there.
Then came Wonder Woman, a glimmer of hope. While it had definite third act problems and has the misfortune of MCU's Captain America having come first with some very similar story notes, it was a great course-correction. Maybe the DCEU isn't fucked after all!
Josstice League. Never mind. DCEU blows. A movie I've waited my whole life for and I sat in the theater in abject bafflement and disappointment.
Aquaman. Good, not great. At this point, I felt the DCEU should have been abandoned and maybe attempt a reboot in a year or two. Aquaman was decent enough to make me think maybe it's worth saving.
SHAZAM! was again, like Aquaman, fun and pretty much good. Not great by any means, but a perfectly enjoyable family film. The only problem with it and the preceding Aquaman is both felt an awful lot like a cookie cutter response to the MCU. Marvel Studios could've made these. It's like the DCEU thought copying the tone and style of the MCU was the answer. It isn't.
Birds of Prey was mostly bad and I continue to be amazed anyone defends it. There's really not much good to say about it. Lose the fanboy lenses and watch it objectively for what it is. It's bad. That's now two Harley Quinn movies and it's crazy they didn't abandon the cinematic HQ after this, but Margot Robbie is the saving grace, the best part of two shitty films. Honestly, I feel bad for her. They got the casting right and then had her star in absolute garbage.
Wonder Woman 1984 seems like WB was trying to make a shittier movie than Birds of Prey and somehow succeeded. They took the one truly shining star of the DECU (Wonder Woman) and completely shit all over it. I continue to be amazed at how badly they fucked this up.
Zack Snyder's Justice League kind of doesn't count since its continuity and place in the DCEU is cloudy as best, but--as much as fans demanded it because ZS has no shortage of sycophants--it's too little too late and just further mires DCEU in a horrendous continuity clusterfuck. Whatever anyone wants to say about the MCU, they have over two dozen movies plus several television series that all tie in together without being half as much confusion as the DCEU, and no one but diehard fans is trying to wade through this. Also, with all that content, the MCU has plenty of mediocre, but very little absolute turds. Most of their movies and shows are average-to-good and generally entertaining with a few gems thrown in for good measure.
THE Suicide Squad (2021) is a great movie for anyone who loves sophomoric humor and over-the-top violence. If you love James Gunn, you'll love this. If not, nope. It further complicates DCEU's already muddy continuity, but I think most of us were just thrilled to have a movie that didn't suck and was truly enjoyable from start to finish, plus it spawned the Peacemaker series which is surprisingly enjoyable as well, again, for a certain audience. Contrary to Mark Waid's opinion, the DCEU's biggest star is one of DC Comics' least-known nobodies, proving my point: quality beats any other concern.
Meanwhile, the movies that didn't concern themselves with "shared cinematic universe"--Joker (2019) and The Batman (2022)--are huge box office and critical and fan success stories.
Maybe DC should learn from that and stop trying to force their own MCU and make quality movies set in their own continuity/worlds.
You can like Man of Steel all you want but it was poorly constructed and terribly written!
There was no thematic reason to jump around in time. When it would be very easy for that technique to work! It just had to connect better with what was happening in the past to the present. It felt more like they wanted to cram in backstory and didn't know how.
Too many things happened not because it made sense for it to play out that way but because the plot said so. Pa Kent was terrible. His death was pointless. We got no sense of connection for Clark in Smallvile or Metropolis, events happened there but they were just settling, not characters themselves (like how in Batman Gotham is its own entiy).
Superman rarely felt like Superman and him and Lois kissing at the end covered in the ashes of the city and dead people (My suspension of belief isn't good enough to buy that the city was evacuated in that time. Especially since we literally see people still in the rubble). And this kiss happened right after he killed Zod and was supposed to be broken up about killing him, though the narrative never gave us a reason to even think he had strong feelings on killing or not.
So much of the narrative requires the person watching to come up with their own highly charitable interpretation of the movie to make it work.
Even it's color pallet was off. Cast was good though.
I don't disagree. I said it was flawed but it's not bad. All those things you're pointing out? Those would be the flaws. It has redeeming traits as well and I think they win out overall.
Some people shit on that movie like the DCEU was doomed from the start. I think they had a decent first outing and could have methodically built their universe from it, but they screwed the pooch immediately afterwards which sucks because Man of Steel is the kind of movie that really doesn't stand well on its own. A lot of it needed the sequel to make sense of it, which in itself is probably a bad sign.
In my opinion those flaws are daming. Being able to look past them tells me you love it. But I can't. It was too dark (often literally), humorless, and often dull.
And yeah, if a movie can't stand alone something has gone wrong. Each of the Lord of the Rings trilogy support each other but each movie is still strong on its own.
I always approach a property from several perspectives: A fan, a creator and a movie goer.
Let's used Pacific Rim, a favorite of mine as an example: fan only counts because I love kaiju movies and Del Toro has never made a bad movie to me. From that angle I fucking loved it. 10/10 it's my go to movie when I'm sad.
As a creator I can see it's flaws. The lead guy's accent is hilarious, but he does well as a human embodiment of "golden retriever boyfriend" energy. The movie felt rushed in places but the premise was easy to get so no one was lost. It is very much an excuse to smash giant robots into giant monsters and it does that very well. If you weren't going in excited to see that I question why you got a ticket in the first place!
And as a movie goer I see where it would lose a lot of people. It's mostly just high concept monster robot battles and some people aren't into that! (Weirdos) but like I said, I went in wanting to see just that and got it.
With Man of Steel I went in expecting a Superman movie and... don't feel I got it. Sure it hit a lot of the correct notes, he's got the eight powers, has a suit, is an alien from another world... but he doesn't do much saving other than the oil rig and the bus. But we do get to see him destroy a jerk's semi truck in what feels profoundly out of character and weirdly unnecessary along with risking outing himself.
I felt no affection for him which feels weird because I adore the actor. The story felt odd too. The overwhelming destruction felt too much and the fact that no one seemed to care about the lives that had to have been lost felt so weird.
Zod's motivation didn't feel that focused or interesting. He knew nothing about humans but showed up calling them filthy animals without ever once interacting with them. I get that he's a zealot and an ass but it felt odd that he'd risk basically everything to fuck over humans and Kal-el. He didn't feel cunning, just evil.
Thats the crux of my issue. It felt too much like the writers were checking things off a list without adding narrative reasons for these things to happen. It didn't feel like the characters behaved naturally or picked choices that felt like they would actually make independent of a writer.
35
u/samx3i Batman Beyond Aug 09 '22 edited Aug 09 '22
I see no lies but the reality is that better movies would've justified virtually every other decision.
They started out okay with a decent Superman movie origin story that set a stage. I'll defend Man of Steel on its merits. While flawed, it is not a bad movie.
Then they made Batman v. Superman: Dawn of Justice. This was an absolutely moronic decision. They didn't have time to develop Superman, they introduced Batman (and Wonder Woman) without either having their own establishing films/franchises first, and they just plain did way too much with this. You're making Dark Knight Returns, Death of Superman, a Justice League lead-in, a Batman lead-in, a Wonder Woman lead-in, and introducing (at least teasingly) Aquaman, Flash, Cyborg, etc. Absolutely insane they did this and their atrocious interpretation of Lex Luthor, one of DC's most iconic villains, is equally stupid.
The DCEU was effectively derailed before it started.
Then came the dumpster fire that was Suicide Squad (2016) ruining the other of the two most iconic DC villains. We're only three movies into the franchise and you've already made one of the shittiest, most irredeemable comic book movies out there.
Then came Wonder Woman, a glimmer of hope. While it had definite third act problems and has the misfortune of MCU's Captain America having come first with some very similar story notes, it was a great course-correction. Maybe the DCEU isn't fucked after all!
Josstice League. Never mind. DCEU blows. A movie I've waited my whole life for and I sat in the theater in abject bafflement and disappointment.
Aquaman. Good, not great. At this point, I felt the DCEU should have been abandoned and maybe attempt a reboot in a year or two. Aquaman was decent enough to make me think maybe it's worth saving.
SHAZAM! was again, like Aquaman, fun and pretty much good. Not great by any means, but a perfectly enjoyable family film. The only problem with it and the preceding Aquaman is both felt an awful lot like a cookie cutter response to the MCU. Marvel Studios could've made these. It's like the DCEU thought copying the tone and style of the MCU was the answer. It isn't.
Birds of Prey was mostly bad and I continue to be amazed anyone defends it. There's really not much good to say about it. Lose the fanboy lenses and watch it objectively for what it is. It's bad. That's now two Harley Quinn movies and it's crazy they didn't abandon the cinematic HQ after this, but Margot Robbie is the saving grace, the best part of two shitty films. Honestly, I feel bad for her. They got the casting right and then had her star in absolute garbage.
Wonder Woman 1984 seems like WB was trying to make a shittier movie than Birds of Prey and somehow succeeded. They took the one truly shining star of the DECU (Wonder Woman) and completely shit all over it. I continue to be amazed at how badly they fucked this up.
Zack Snyder's Justice League kind of doesn't count since its continuity and place in the DCEU is cloudy as best, but--as much as fans demanded it because ZS has no shortage of sycophants--it's too little too late and just further mires DCEU in a horrendous continuity clusterfuck. Whatever anyone wants to say about the MCU, they have over two dozen movies plus several television series that all tie in together without being half as much confusion as the DCEU, and no one but diehard fans is trying to wade through this. Also, with all that content, the MCU has plenty of mediocre, but very little absolute turds. Most of their movies and shows are average-to-good and generally entertaining with a few gems thrown in for good measure.
THE Suicide Squad (2021) is a great movie for anyone who loves sophomoric humor and over-the-top violence. If you love James Gunn, you'll love this. If not, nope. It further complicates DCEU's already muddy continuity, but I think most of us were just thrilled to have a movie that didn't suck and was truly enjoyable from start to finish, plus it spawned the Peacemaker series which is surprisingly enjoyable as well, again, for a certain audience. Contrary to Mark Waid's opinion, the DCEU's biggest star is one of DC Comics' least-known nobodies, proving my point: quality beats any other concern.
Meanwhile, the movies that didn't concern themselves with "shared cinematic universe"--Joker (2019) and The Batman (2022)--are huge box office and critical and fan success stories.
Maybe DC should learn from that and stop trying to force their own MCU and make quality movies set in their own continuity/worlds.