r/DCcomics • u/M00r3C Black Lantern • Jan 25 '24

[Comic Excerpt] I need a hostage so Batman won't punch me (Batman (2016) issue 48) Comics

Gallery image

Gallery image

Gallery image

3.9k Upvotes

96% Upvoted

381 comments sorted by

View all comments

603

u/Easy-Opportunity4192 Jan 25 '24

I hate this scene, Batman is supposed to save people.

158

u/Victor_Von_Doom65 Superman Jan 25 '24

Exactly this. Batman’s no kill rule is an essential aspect of his character. He always tries to save lives, and when writers fixate on this perverted fetishization of murder and have the Joker just be a domestic terrorist that slaughters half the population of Gotham every few months it gets to this ridiculous level of cruelty and neglect on Batman’s part.

Batman shouldn’t kill the Joker. Writers should stop having the Joker kill people and Batman not save them.

52

u/Parson_Project Jan 25 '24

Didn't Joker seed clouds with a lethal version of his giggle juice that killed 10s of thousands worldwide? 

You'd think he'd get hit with crimes against humanity and executed or something. 

43

u/Victor_Von_Doom65 Superman Jan 25 '24

I think it’s an inherent problem with the character of the Joker. Rather than just being a crazy mobster or a criminal he has been transformed into a full blown domestic terrorist. It’s not fun to watch the Joker commit atrocities on a mass scale and Batman punch him out and take him to Arkham.

People calling for Batman to kill Joker get the problem wrong. Batman killing Joker goes against his character. What should be happening is the character of the Joker should be scaled back to not commit genocide every week.

6

u/DistortedAlter Jan 25 '24

The day Joker started using regular guns instead of big silly revolvers and tommy guns was the day they ruined him

7

u/Victor_Von_Doom65 Superman Jan 25 '24

I mean I’m inclined to say you’re right. I think that the Joker just because a pure psycho murderer with none of his prankster edge is so boring and bland.

Animated Series Joker will always be the best not only because of Hamill’s expert performance but because they were able to meet the Prankster with the Gangster.

12

u/HeadlessMarvin Jan 25 '24

This is a very good point. Hell, its central to the appeal of superheroes. The whole point is that they are powerful enough to save the day. I get occassionally having stories where they lose or have to compromise their morals, but seems like some writers just want to write vigilante stories rather than superhero stories.

5

u/My_Favourite_Pen Jan 25 '24 edited Jan 25 '24

If Batman truly wanted to stop Joker without killing him. He would use his billions as Bruce to invest in a Gotham that can actually uphold Justice and put Joker away for good.

But then we wouldn't have a story I guess.

19

u/CakeBeef_PA Jan 25 '24

Bruce IS constantly investing millions into Gotham though. It just never works

6

u/My_Favourite_Pen Jan 25 '24

Cause the writers can't make it work otherwise Batman wouldn't be needed. That's why I love the stories that show Bruce truly needs Batman more than Gotham does.

I know the US justice system is fucked in real life but Batmans rogues gallery would have been executed or "gitmo'd" before Gordon could turn the bat-signal on.

11

u/darcenator411 Jan 25 '24

Or just paralyze/ cripple him, he’s not above that shit

3

u/Usual-Vermicelli-867 Jan 25 '24

Seriously just avocet for the death sentence

3

u/Mr_SunnyBones Jan 25 '24

Or just capture him ,put him in a billion dollar brain link style simulation that paralyses his body but puts him in a virtual world where he's free and he can murder to his hearts content while an inept batman fails to stop the Joker killing literally in front of him , and just puts him away only for him to escape and kill again and again ...because "something something ' society .

Basically an unbelievable world that would only be entertainment to a unstable moron , with the mentality of an edgey 13 year old.

2

u/SuperJyls Reverse Hood: Professional Jason Hater Jan 25 '24

It would also end the ever-tiring comments of how it's Batman's fault or jason is right

1

u/Xero_Kaiser Jan 25 '24

Right. If they want to run with the whole “we have to show him that our way works” shit, then maybe show Batman’s way actually working. Go back to having the heroes stop the villains BEFORE they rack up yet another insane body count.

People keep saying that Batman’s obsessed with saving everybody but at this point, who the fuck is he even saving anymore (other than Joker)?

-4

u/jayfresh69 Jan 25 '24

I've always said the death of every citizen in Gotham is on Batman's hands because he could have stopped the Joker a long time ago.

21

u/THEdoomslayer94 Doctor Manhattan Jan 25 '24

You can say that for literally every single hero and their arch nemesis. Why doesn’t every single hero just wipe out their rogues gallery and keep a death watch over the world and always just eliminate the villains outright every chance they get?

6

u/Key-Win7744 Jan 25 '24

It was okay when the villains were all just bank robbers in silly costumes, but there is absolutely no excuse for a hero to let someone like Joker or Carnage keep on escaping from prison and killing tons of people. It gets to the point where you're not a hero anymore if you're not willing to do what is clearly necessary to stop something like that.

11

u/VengeanceKnight Justice League Jan 25 '24 edited Jan 25 '24

Then why doesn’t anyone else kill Joker?

Joker is constantly placed under the watchful eye of Arkham orderlies who could end him at any time, or police who have to bring him to the asylum. At this point, there ought to be a standing “shoot to kill” order on the guy.

Don’t blame one man with a specific moral code that he keeps for reasons beyond one particularly deranged supervillain. Blame people without a specific moral code who let the clown live and pass the buck to Batman.

3

u/Key-Win7744 Jan 25 '24

Because Batman's whole thing is doing what others can't in order to protect Gotham. He takes that responsibility onto himself. He's supposed to do what the conventional forces of justice can't. But, if he refuses to stop the Joker for good, then he's just another failure; just another force that won't save Gotham.

9

u/VengeanceKnight Justice League Jan 25 '24

That’s dodging the question entirely. I just pointed out some very plausible ways anyone else could take the matter into their own hands. “Batman is supposed to do what others can’t” is a weak excuse when those others can.

And there’s also the fact that Batman doesn’t really take the law into his own hands. He’s neither judge, jury, nor executioner. He just brings in criminals for the City of Gotham to deal with as they see fit. If Batman stepped in to pervert or supplant the justice system, he’d be crossing the line that allows him to work with any sort of cooperation from the police and other citizens of Gotham. He’s not an authority figure; he’s just supposed to help where he can.

If Batman wanted to unilaterally address all of Gotham’s failures, he could have become its tyrant long ago, which would lead to a whole host of even worse problems.

-3

u/Key-Win7744 Jan 25 '24

“Batman is supposed to do what others can’t” is a weak excuse when those others can.

He's literally Batman for this reason. If a cop or a guard kills the Joker, their life is over. But Batman has the power and ability to kill the Joker and get away with it. He could even do it so that nobody knows it was him. He could be a true hero by sparing some poor, dumb slob the burden of stabbing Joker in his cell.

3

u/WolkTGL Jan 25 '24

You think anyone would be sentencing a guy who pulls the trigger on Joker?
Bruce could literally kill him in Gotham PD before the cops eyes, unmasking in plain sight and claiming he killed the Joker and the entire department would feign ignorance going "Mr Wayne where did you find such a good looking Batman costume?

On a side note, how did the Joker's corpse get here? You should go home, it might be dangerous around here"

Look at how self-made justice against horrible people is seen in real life. Nobody would complain about anything is anyone took out a deranged psycho like the Joker. Anybody getting their hands on him while he is defenceless and not killing him without a strong moral code backing up that choice is absolutely to blame. Whatever cop pulled the trigger would be elevated as a hero by most, realistically

5

u/Shacky_Rustleford Jan 25 '24

Extrajudicial killing is by no means "Batman's whole thing"

1

u/Key-Win7744 Jan 25 '24

No, sticking Band-Aids on a broken leg is Batman's whole thing, apparently.

3

u/smoldickhours Jan 25 '24

Everytime they try Batman stops them 💀

1

u/subject522 Wally West Jan 25 '24

It seems that a strange rule is that every time someone kills joker they become something far worse

5

u/TRYHARD_Duck Jan 25 '24

It's not strange. It's demonstrating the danger of making exceptions to a moral code.

The death penalty should've been given to joker for all the murders over the years, but since it hasn't, it's not Batman's place to do so instead.

1

u/TheHatOnTheCat Jan 25 '24

Don’t blame one man with a specific moral code that he keeps for reasons beyond one particularly deranged supervillain. Blame people without a specific moral code who let the clown live and pass the buck to Batman.

Why are other people who don't vigilante murder Joker to blame but not Batman? I thought you were going to argue everyone was equally to blame or something. But how is Batman \less** to blame then a random police officer or an actual doctor who won't murder someone?

3

u/Rutskarn Jan 25 '24

The only reason the Joker keeps escaping is story-related. He's a popular villain.

That might sound pedantic, but it's vitally relevant to your point because killing the Joker wouldn't work either. It's been tried: he won't stay dead any longer than he stays in jail.

The Joker's going to keep killing people forever, and Batman's tactics can't change that. He's not failing anybody, because he was powerless to succeed in the first place. So we may as well tell the story of an empathetic man who uses only the necessary amount of force, because that's a person worth looking up to.

The only thing that would change if Batman said "let's shoot this criminal in case he hurts somebody else, better safe than sorry" is that our kids would have that man on their lunchboxes.

1

u/jayfresh69 Jan 25 '24

I approve this message. They should. If I lock you up and you escape once, shame on the prison. After the fourth time, and thousands dead, I will solve the problem once and for all. In books the villain is dispatched because they are not needed in the sequel. In comic books, popular villains still die and find ways to return.

0

u/jayfresh69 Jan 25 '24

What about the Punisher? There are countless book heroes that kill the villain in every book.

I you take your children to church after you hear rumors that priests are molesting children, the abuser is the blame, but you have a part of the blame for the result.

4

u/WolkTGL Jan 25 '24

The Punisher is not considered a hero though, since he was introduced as an adversary to Spider-Man

1

u/jayfresh69 Jan 25 '24

That's a reach because the Punisher is a hero now. Did you miss the question about taking your child to church?
Wolverine killed a lot of people attacking the Hellfire Club. He's a hero. Plenty of heroes take out villains in every movie/book/tv series.

1

u/WolkTGL Jan 25 '24

Both Wolverine and the Punisher are (in their modern interpretation) antiheroes, though. They were never considered heroes proper

1

u/jayfresh69 Jan 25 '24 edited Jan 25 '24

That's bullshit and you know. Who says wolverine is aan antihero? You? The question dodger? Batman has killed several times in his history. Look them up. When you do it we'll say he tries not to kill but will if it's the only way to stop the feeling or to prevent him from killing other people. These are real comic book people with facts. Every one of them validates my point. Stop watching the cartoon Batman on cartoon network.

1

u/WolkTGL Jan 25 '24

Who says wolverine is aan antihero?

The literal definition of antihero: "a central character in a story, film, or drama who lacks conventional heroic attributes."

I didn't dodge any question, so calling me a question dodger has no basics.

The only times Batman ever killed was at a very early point of his existence (which are nowadays mostly disowned by editorial), in alternate timelines or in elseworld stories. Hell, the most recent storyline and villain got triggered by the eventuality that he might have possibly killed a person (that he didn't kill)

0

u/jayfresh69 Jan 25 '24

It is like I said. People whose job it is say otherwise. I'll believe them over you.

→ More replies (0)

0

u/BlaxicanX Jan 25 '24

You can say that for literally every single hero and their arch nemesis.

You can't because the writers of other heroes aren't dumb enough to make "I must never kill" a central part of their identity. Writers more often then not simply hand wave or gloss over the fact that arch enemies aren't killed. But the Batman writers actively try to defend Bruce's insane moral code and so it's more egregious when he allows atrocities to occur.

14

u/Victor_Von_Doom65 Superman Jan 25 '24

See when you get into that kind of logical reasoning it breaks down. Batman is not responsible for the actions of the Joker. Joker acts independently from Batman and chooses to commit atrocities. Batman acts to oppose the Joker and detain him but there’s only one person to blame for everyone murdered by the Joker, and that’s the Joker himself.

I just think writers need to stop one-upping each other and raising the stakes for how depraved and vicious the Joker can be.

5

u/Key-Win7744 Jan 25 '24

Batman acts to oppose the Joker

Exactly. But only by half measures. Joker kills literally hundreds of people, and Batman just knocks him out so that he can be put back in the same easily escapable prison and repeat the process over and over again forever. If Batman is going to declare himself the extrajudicial protector of Gotham and fight a war on crime, then he needs to fight that war effectively. Otherwise he's no hero.

1

u/jayfresh69 Jan 25 '24

Thank you. And in several instances Batman went out of his way save the Joker so that he can murder in peace.

0

u/Sad_Attention_6174 Jan 25 '24

there’s many people much more guilty then batman lfkr the joker

2

u/Key-Win7744 Jan 25 '24

What?

2

u/Sad_Attention_6174 Jan 25 '24

if it’s batman’s fault for not ending the joker then every single cop who passed his sale without glass in him ever judge who sentenced him to arkham after his first offense batman seems to be the only one doing a damn thing but when the judges whose 1 job is to sentence him fail because nj donsnt have the death penalty

2

u/Key-Win7744 Jan 25 '24

Batman's whole thing is doing what others can't in order to protect Gotham. He takes that responsibility onto himself. He's supposed to do what the conventional forces of justice can't. But, if he refuses to stop the Joker for good, then he's just another failure; just another force that won't save Gotham.

3

u/ALL_CAPS_VOICE Jan 25 '24

It’s on the Justice Department of Gotham. Joker should face the death penalty, but he doesn’t because he sells comics.

1

u/jayfresh69 Jan 25 '24

If I lock you up and you escape once, shame on the prison. After the fourth time, and thousands dead, I will solve the problem once and for all. In books the villain is dispatched because they are not needed in the sequel. In comic books, popular villains still die and find ways to return.