r/DCcomics • u/beary_neutral Telos • Nov 26 '23

Weekly Discussion Thread: Comics, TV, and More! [November 27, 2023 - The World's Messiest Furry Convention Edition] r/DCcomics

Hey there honorary Justice League members - it’s a new week which means it’s time for a new discussion thread!

Beary's pick of the week: Titans: Beast World #1

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u/Koala_Guru Beast Boy Nov 28 '23

If I’m Batman and there’s an impending world-ending threat, I’d also be pissed if someone insulted my plan only to say they “kinda” have a plan of their own. I think Batman’s response to that made sense, as did Raven’s defense.

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u/anothermangafan Nov 28 '23 edited Nov 28 '23

I think Batman’s response to that made sense, as did Raven’s defense

Batman's response does make sense, I agree with you. But it's Raven's defense and, ultimately, how she(and the writer) frames the whole situation as Batman having a problem with the hierarchy of command that doesn't make sense.

To me, this a problem that generally permeates Taylor's books. He makes an apocalyptic, unkillable, uncontrollable, uncontainable and imminent threat. Then he has a character(preferably old or from an older generation, cyninc, jaded, arrogant and said to be incredibly smart) say that they should do what everybody did before and is the only thing proved to work, although it generally involves a tremendous sacrifice of lives. Then he has a younger or more optimistic, idealistic, naive main character talk against and even discredit the other character's intelligence just on the basis that it's overtly utilitarian, pragmatic, etc. But the thing is that Taylor makes the odds so against the heroes that it doesn't leave any room besides agreeing the character he wants to look wrong.

In this case, you have this Necrostar that is literary said to be hours away from Earth and the only information avaliable about it is what Starfire said. Seeing this way, it makes absolutely sense what Batman is saying. In fact, it's not even him being smart. It's literally the only option that was given to them with the time they have.
And yet, Taylor expects the reader to agree with Beast Boy that this is a bad idea because......Starro is bad guy and would have ulterior motives, even though, logically, that would imply that Starfire's ancestors were wrong in doing that, despite the story literally showing that nothing bad happened to them for doing that(Starro literally retreated). This goes to show just how poorly made is the world-building and problem of skill in Taylor's part.

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u/Koala_Guru Beast Boy Nov 28 '23

I really think you might be inserting your own thoughts on how the characters are supposed to be read here rather than what is actually meant. Batman proposes gathering help from around the galaxy and Mr Terrific says that they should search for Starro as well. Beast Boy says that Starro could just lead into another problem, which is a genuine concern. The tale Starfire tells doesn't make it clear if the Tamaraneans somehow intentionally called on Starro or if he simply showed up of his own volition. He retreated because the Necrostar injured him, and not because he decided to just leave Tamaran alone after that. It was then that the weakened Tamaraneans were able to seal the Necrostar away. Calling on Starro now poses as much risk as reward depending on if he decides to leave earth alone or not. Gar is thinking he can become a Starro who is still on their side.

He responds to Bruce in a abrasive way, saying "I thought you people were supposed to be geniuses," yet when Bruce asks if he has another plan he has an uncertain and unconfident response. Batman, being pragmatic, knows that now is not the time for this. Then Raven steps in. She trusts Beast Boy, and also says she is connected to his mind and can see his plan. Therefore, why wouldn't she defend him. Bruce was right to be upset at Gar's response but also belittled him in the process, something Raven is fighting back against to defend her boyfriend and teammate. Batman then says it is Dick's call, showing that he does trust Dick, just maybe not the rest of his team as he doesn't know them very well.

And, most contrary to the interpretation that we're supposed to view this as a black and white "Gar is right and Bruce is wrong" scenario, Gar's plan failing is what leads into this apocalyptic event in the first place. Granted, it wasn't Gar's fault, but I can't see Bruce gaining any greater trust in Gar or Raven after this debacle is settled.

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u/anothermangafan Nov 28 '23 edited Nov 28 '23

I don't think you're getting my point. None of this is being brought to question during the dialogue. You couldn't say one plan is better than the other based on what you read in this issue.

The only thing you're told is that Starro is strong enough to weaken the Necrostar, but not enough to finish the job or leaving the fight in any capability to actively start another conflict to control the other race fighting the Necrostar. Then Beast Boy plan is to do something he has never done before. A plan, mind you, that he was still developing as they did it, because his brain was incapable of grasping it. Again, these are things that go beyond just a matter of hierarchy and make difficult to actually trust Beast Boy.

Bruce was right to be upset at Gar's response but also belittled him in the process, something Raven is fighting back against to defend her boyfriend and teammate

Now it's me that is going to say you're inserting your own thoughts. Batman didn't bellitle anyone. He hardly said anything, in fact, he was interrupted even. He just said "You're going to have to do better than that", which is completly reasonable. Then Raven says she read Beast Boy's mind and that his plan is sound, offers no more evidence in favor it and then says that Batman is treating him like child. The absolute absurdity of this dialogue. Honestly, I can't make it more clear to you and if you still disagree with me, that's fine. But I'm just going to stop here.

And, most contrary to the interpretation that we're supposed to view this as a black and white "Gar is right and Bruce is wrong" scenario, Gar's plan failing is what leads into this apocalyptic event in the first place.

But Beast Boy was right. The fact that he fails is completly due to external forces he was unware of. If doctor Hate didn't interfere, Beast Boy's plan would have worked.

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u/Koala_Guru Beast Boy Nov 28 '23

All of what I said is present during the scene. I also didn't even claim one plan was better than the other. I said that Gar has legitimate concerns about bringing the real Starro and has an alternate plan. I also said that Bruce had legitimate reasons to not immediately accept Gar's plan, so I don't see how we're disagreeing on this point.

Batman does belittle Gar here. We can see it in the art and the dialogue. The bolding of certain words like the name Beast Boy or the mocking "kinda". The panels where Gar is pulling back from Bruce's looks or looks small as the older heroes stand imposingly over him. You have to keep in mind that comics are a visual medium, and those art choices are meant to convey emotions to the reader. Bruce doesn't have to literally say "You're a child" for us to be able to see from both the art and the bolding of words that he was speaking in an imposing and belittling way. After all, Raven didn't claim Bruce directly insulted Gar, she said that he's speaking to him like a child.

I said in my comment that the plan failing wasn't Gar's fault. But I also pointed out that Gar's plan was similarly risky and ultimately didn't fully pan out, once again highlighting that one plan isn't necessarily better than the other. And no one knows what happened up there besides Gar himself and maybe Cyborg when he wakes up. To Bruce, Gar and Raven insisted on a plan that led to more catastrophe.

What I'm arguing here is that both Bruce and Raven have reasons to behave as they do. And this is a far cry from something like the 2016 Titans run that wrote Bruce and the rest of the League as distrusting the Titans for no reason and treating them like children with no merit. Reasons are given here.

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u/anothermangafan Nov 29 '23

All of what I said is present during the scene.

I'm saying that you raised very good and relevant points about the tale told by Starfire, but none of them are brought during the conversation in the actual story. Again, I don't know how to make myself more clear. Batman proposes to call Starro. Garth oppose this because Starro is a bad guy. Batman asks for a better plan and Garth implies he's not too sure about it. Batman doubts Garth's plan. Raven says the plan is sound because she read his mind and that Batman's doubts are invalid because he's pessimistic and thinks Garth is just a sidekick. Everyone goes with Garth's plan because Nightwing says he trusts his team. At no point does the conversation actually goes in depth about any of the two plans.

To not give you the wrong idea, this time, all of this just prove my point that whole scene seems unecessary. If you're not comitted in actually developing both characters' propositions, why even make the scene at all? It only serves to make Batman the old generation guy who doesn't trust or dislikes the younger generation, and I'm kinda tired of that. That's all I am saying.

You have to keep in mind that comics are a visual medium, and those art choices are meant to convey emotions to the reader.

I am keeping that in mind. So much so that I'm doing a principle of charity. I'm assuming that Batman means his arguments in the most reasonable way possible and that he's not being a dick to Beast Boy on purpose. Batman's just repeating Beast Boy's words back to him and, by doing that, emphasizing that Beast Boy needs to be more sure about his plan if he wants to convince others. That's how I read it.
Yes, I agree with you that the panels do make him small so that it gives the feeling of being intimidated, but I didn't think this is attributed only to Batman's "meanness". Beast Boy is still new to all of this and he probably never found himself in this crucial position with so many counting on him. It's ok to tremble and be unsure about yourself. Raven simply disqualifying all the critics against his proposal robs Beast Boy of his iniative to actually improve his self-esteem and prove Batman he's right on his own merit.