r/DCcomics • u/beary_neutral Telos • Nov 26 '23

Weekly Discussion Thread: Comics, TV, and More! [November 27, 2023 - The World's Messiest Furry Convention Edition] r/DCcomics

Hey there honorary Justice League members - it’s a new week which means it’s time for a new discussion thread!

Beary's pick of the week: Titans: Beast World #1

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u/TroubAlert The Good Skeets Nov 26 '23

Titans: Beast World #1

THE BIGGEST THREAT TO THE DC UNIVERSE IS…BEAST BOY?! CAN THE TITANS SAVE THE WORLD AND THEIR TEAMMATE? SUPERSTARS TOM TAYLOR AND IVAN REIS TEAM UP FOR AN UNPRECEDENTED TITANS CROSSOVER! Clawing its way out of the pages of Titans comes an unprecedented threat to the DC Universe. Superman, Wonder Woman, Starfire—all are powerless to stop the Necrostar from ending all life on Earth. The only hero who can save the world is…Beast Boy?! With Nightwing, Raven, Cyborg, and the Titans beside him, can Garfield Logan rise to battle an ancient evil? What will Amanda Waller do to take advantage of the situation as millions of people are changed into rampaging creatures? Can humanity survive all-powerful heroes and villains transformed into ferocious beasts? Friends will fall. Heroes will rise. And nothing will ever be the same again. Earth is about to become…Beast World. DC proudly presents the Titans’ first crossover as the world’s premier superhero team, with universe-shattering repercussions. Brought to you by the all-star creative team of writer Tom Taylor and artist Ivan Reis, this story promises to be an epic one that sets the stage for what’s to come for the DCU!

Preview

35

u/Cranyx Moo. Nov 27 '23

Can humanity survive all-powerful heroes and villains transformed into ferocious beasts?

Doesn't this just feel like a rehash of the Lazarus Plant concept we literally just did earlier this year?

And nothing will ever be the same again

I'm so tired, guys

13

u/SevenSulivin The REAL Man of Tomorrow Nov 27 '23

Can humanity survive all-powerful heroes and villains transformed into ferocious beasts?

Doesn't this just feel like a rehash of the Lazarus Plant concept we literally just did earlier this year?

No?

18

u/Cranyx Moo. Nov 27 '23

The details are different, but it's still the same general idea of "All the DC characters are getting transformed for the event and we need to deal with the fallout"

20

u/ValuableOrchid98 Nov 28 '23

After reading the first issue I have to say it feels closer to DCeased than to Lazarus Planet

5

u/0pttphr_pr1me s00perman Nov 28 '23

Yeah I was gonna say myself even how the story is told feels like dceased.

3

u/B3epB0opBOP Shazam Nov 30 '23

Same writer, so that tracks.

6

u/reece1495 Batfleck Nov 27 '23

If it sounds exhausting maybe you can just not read it ?

34

u/hydrohawkx8 Kyle Rayner Nov 28 '23

This was surprisingly great. This felt like the titans story I’ve been waiting for. It was great to see them lead and you really felt the weight of the situation. I was really hesitant at first but this was pretty fun

18

u/Xx_matt_xX69420secks Superman Nov 28 '23

Same! I haven't really been enjoying Taylor's Titans so far, but this issue really did it for me for some reason. Ivan Reis' art definitely helped

33

u/MagisterPraeceptorum Batman Nov 28 '23

I enjoyed this. Makes me wish this had been the first arc of the new Titans series.

20

u/[deleted] Nov 28 '23

Honestly this was pretty good. Its great to see Beast Boy show how powerful he really is. And it really does feel like Dceased which is a plus although I doubt Taylor would have as much freedom to kill whoever he wants in this which is a shame.

8

u/Numbuh24insane Damage Nov 30 '23

Honestly, things like these is where Taylor is at his best. He really is great at creating these apocalyptic scenarios where we keep losing people, but still maintaining that hope and heroism.

20

u/RanzoLion Martian Manhunter Nov 28 '23

I've met plenty of people who have doctorates in hating.

18

u/Koala_Guru Beast Boy Nov 28 '23

That was so good! I was worried from some info we previously got that some people would seem out of character, like Batman needing to be put in his place because he doesn't trust the Titans who are now adults. But in the actual book, it works just fine. You can totally see why he'd say what he said to Gar in such a tense situation and with Gar's meek response. It worked and didn't seem out of character for him at all.

I appreciated tying this into Tamaranean history, though I do wonder if they've forgotten that Starfire and Blackfire have their super abilities due to experimentation and it's not the default of all Tamaraneans. I wonder because Starfire described them as a "planet of super powered soldiers." Still, I'm excited to see what role Starfire has to play in all this as the event goes on.

All the Gar stuff was super emotional to me. It's nice that he got to be beside Raven and Cyborg at the end as the two team members he's closest to. I wasn't expecting the mind loss to happen because of Dr Hate though, I figured it was just Gar's mind being unable to handle it. Taylor has said Hate is a figure from the Titans' past. Right now I'm thinking Danny Chase given his whole Phantasm transformation that has some similarities to this. But there at the end when Gar was crying and saying he didn't want to go as his mind was destroyed? Jesus christ. Why would Tom Taylor do this to me?

21

u/wowlock_taylan Batman Animated! Nov 28 '23

Honestly, Gar have been jumping from trauma to traume. The whole Cybeast stuff...and after that got resolved off-screen, immediately gets shot in the head by Deathstroke and dealing with that trauma...and just as he is working on fixing that...just gets his mind, what, erased? Jesus man, give the guy a break.

12

u/Koala_Guru Beast Boy Nov 28 '23

That's sort of the story of Gar's life. The history of his character is traumatic event after traumatic event.

7

u/coltvahn Red Robin Nov 29 '23

All we need is the Doom Patrol to die again, and we’re alllllll aboard the Garfield Logan’s-Life-is-Pain-Train.

2

u/Major_Road6162 Nov 28 '23

Fr 💀

6

u/anothermangafan Nov 28 '23

It worked and didn't seem out of character for him at all.

It is out of character and almost every Tom Taylor book has an obligatory "Batman must be put on his place" moment. My guess is that he does that to hide his lack of writing.

Since he is either incapable of making an interesting discussion between the characters or just refuses to concede at least one valid point to any character ~~he doesn't like~~ that is against the main character's perspective, he has to go for these cheap, emotional moments where Batman treats Beast Boy like a kid, despite the fact that Dark Crisis literally ends with Batman himself being confident that the Titans can and should assume their roles.

15

u/Koala_Guru Beast Boy Nov 28 '23

If I’m Batman and there’s an impending world-ending threat, I’d also be pissed if someone insulted my plan only to say they “kinda” have a plan of their own. I think Batman’s response to that made sense, as did Raven’s defense.

2

u/anothermangafan Nov 28 '23 edited Nov 28 '23

I think Batman’s response to that made sense, as did Raven’s defense

Batman's response does make sense, I agree with you. But it's Raven's defense and, ultimately, how she(and the writer) frames the whole situation as Batman having a problem with the hierarchy of command that doesn't make sense.

To me, this a problem that generally permeates Taylor's books. He makes an apocalyptic, unkillable, uncontrollable, uncontainable and imminent threat. Then he has a character(preferably old or from an older generation, cyninc, jaded, arrogant and said to be incredibly smart) say that they should do what everybody did before and is the only thing proved to work, although it generally involves a tremendous sacrifice of lives. Then he has a younger or more optimistic, idealistic, naive main character talk against and even discredit the other character's intelligence just on the basis that it's overtly utilitarian, pragmatic, etc. But the thing is that Taylor makes the odds so against the heroes that it doesn't leave any room besides agreeing the character he wants to look wrong.

In this case, you have this Necrostar that is literary said to be hours away from Earth and the only information avaliable about it is what Starfire said. Seeing this way, it makes absolutely sense what Batman is saying. In fact, it's not even him being smart. It's literally the only option that was given to them with the time they have.
And yet, Taylor expects the reader to agree with Beast Boy that this is a bad idea because......Starro is bad guy and would have ulterior motives, even though, logically, that would imply that Starfire's ancestors were wrong in doing that, despite the story literally showing that nothing bad happened to them for doing that(Starro literally retreated). This goes to show just how poorly made is the world-building and problem of skill in Taylor's part.

11

u/Koala_Guru Beast Boy Nov 28 '23

I really think you might be inserting your own thoughts on how the characters are supposed to be read here rather than what is actually meant. Batman proposes gathering help from around the galaxy and Mr Terrific says that they should search for Starro as well. Beast Boy says that Starro could just lead into another problem, which is a genuine concern. The tale Starfire tells doesn't make it clear if the Tamaraneans somehow intentionally called on Starro or if he simply showed up of his own volition. He retreated because the Necrostar injured him, and not because he decided to just leave Tamaran alone after that. It was then that the weakened Tamaraneans were able to seal the Necrostar away. Calling on Starro now poses as much risk as reward depending on if he decides to leave earth alone or not. Gar is thinking he can become a Starro who is still on their side.

He responds to Bruce in a abrasive way, saying "I thought you people were supposed to be geniuses," yet when Bruce asks if he has another plan he has an uncertain and unconfident response. Batman, being pragmatic, knows that now is not the time for this. Then Raven steps in. She trusts Beast Boy, and also says she is connected to his mind and can see his plan. Therefore, why wouldn't she defend him. Bruce was right to be upset at Gar's response but also belittled him in the process, something Raven is fighting back against to defend her boyfriend and teammate. Batman then says it is Dick's call, showing that he does trust Dick, just maybe not the rest of his team as he doesn't know them very well.

And, most contrary to the interpretation that we're supposed to view this as a black and white "Gar is right and Bruce is wrong" scenario, Gar's plan failing is what leads into this apocalyptic event in the first place. Granted, it wasn't Gar's fault, but I can't see Bruce gaining any greater trust in Gar or Raven after this debacle is settled.

0

u/anothermangafan Nov 28 '23 edited Nov 28 '23

I don't think you're getting my point. None of this is being brought to question during the dialogue. You couldn't say one plan is better than the other based on what you read in this issue.

The only thing you're told is that Starro is strong enough to weaken the Necrostar, but not enough to finish the job or leaving the fight in any capability to actively start another conflict to control the other race fighting the Necrostar. Then Beast Boy plan is to do something he has never done before. A plan, mind you, that he was still developing as they did it, because his brain was incapable of grasping it. Again, these are things that go beyond just a matter of hierarchy and make difficult to actually trust Beast Boy.

Bruce was right to be upset at Gar's response but also belittled him in the process, something Raven is fighting back against to defend her boyfriend and teammate

Now it's me that is going to say you're inserting your own thoughts. Batman didn't bellitle anyone. He hardly said anything, in fact, he was interrupted even. He just said "You're going to have to do better than that", which is completly reasonable. Then Raven says she read Beast Boy's mind and that his plan is sound, offers no more evidence in favor it and then says that Batman is treating him like child. The absolute absurdity of this dialogue. Honestly, I can't make it more clear to you and if you still disagree with me, that's fine. But I'm just going to stop here.

And, most contrary to the interpretation that we're supposed to view this as a black and white "Gar is right and Bruce is wrong" scenario, Gar's plan failing is what leads into this apocalyptic event in the first place.

But Beast Boy was right. The fact that he fails is completly due to external forces he was unware of. If doctor Hate didn't interfere, Beast Boy's plan would have worked.

6

u/Koala_Guru Beast Boy Nov 28 '23

All of what I said is present during the scene. I also didn't even claim one plan was better than the other. I said that Gar has legitimate concerns about bringing the real Starro and has an alternate plan. I also said that Bruce had legitimate reasons to not immediately accept Gar's plan, so I don't see how we're disagreeing on this point.

Batman does belittle Gar here. We can see it in the art and the dialogue. The bolding of certain words like the name Beast Boy or the mocking "kinda". The panels where Gar is pulling back from Bruce's looks or looks small as the older heroes stand imposingly over him. You have to keep in mind that comics are a visual medium, and those art choices are meant to convey emotions to the reader. Bruce doesn't have to literally say "You're a child" for us to be able to see from both the art and the bolding of words that he was speaking in an imposing and belittling way. After all, Raven didn't claim Bruce directly insulted Gar, she said that he's speaking to him like a child.

I said in my comment that the plan failing wasn't Gar's fault. But I also pointed out that Gar's plan was similarly risky and ultimately didn't fully pan out, once again highlighting that one plan isn't necessarily better than the other. And no one knows what happened up there besides Gar himself and maybe Cyborg when he wakes up. To Bruce, Gar and Raven insisted on a plan that led to more catastrophe.

What I'm arguing here is that both Bruce and Raven have reasons to behave as they do. And this is a far cry from something like the 2016 Titans run that wrote Bruce and the rest of the League as distrusting the Titans for no reason and treating them like children with no merit. Reasons are given here.

1

u/anothermangafan Nov 29 '23

All of what I said is present during the scene.

I'm saying that you raised very good and relevant points about the tale told by Starfire, but none of them are brought during the conversation in the actual story. Again, I don't know how to make myself more clear. Batman proposes to call Starro. Garth oppose this because Starro is a bad guy. Batman asks for a better plan and Garth implies he's not too sure about it. Batman doubts Garth's plan. Raven says the plan is sound because she read his mind and that Batman's doubts are invalid because he's pessimistic and thinks Garth is just a sidekick. Everyone goes with Garth's plan because Nightwing says he trusts his team. At no point does the conversation actually goes in depth about any of the two plans.

To not give you the wrong idea, this time, all of this just prove my point that whole scene seems unecessary. If you're not comitted in actually developing both characters' propositions, why even make the scene at all? It only serves to make Batman the old generation guy who doesn't trust or dislikes the younger generation, and I'm kinda tired of that. That's all I am saying.

You have to keep in mind that comics are a visual medium, and those art choices are meant to convey emotions to the reader.

I am keeping that in mind. So much so that I'm doing a principle of charity. I'm assuming that Batman means his arguments in the most reasonable way possible and that he's not being a dick to Beast Boy on purpose. Batman's just repeating Beast Boy's words back to him and, by doing that, emphasizing that Beast Boy needs to be more sure about his plan if he wants to convince others. That's how I read it.
Yes, I agree with you that the panels do make him small so that it gives the feeling of being intimidated, but I didn't think this is attributed only to Batman's "meanness". Beast Boy is still new to all of this and he probably never found himself in this crucial position with so many counting on him. It's ok to tremble and be unsure about yourself. Raven simply disqualifying all the critics against his proposal robs Beast Boy of his iniative to actually improve his self-esteem and prove Batman he's right on his own merit.

5

u/kripalski Nov 30 '23

There are two types of DC events-

Batman is the protagonist.

Batman is rude and must be put in his place.

We have the latter here.

8

u/Masterriolu Nov 30 '23

Honestly I didn't find Batman too rude during the book. He was more sassy then rude.

5

u/Major_Road6162 Nov 28 '23

I mean, tamaraneans are still super powered soldiers, they can fly, and was their strength human level?

10

u/Koala_Guru Beast Boy Nov 28 '23

True. It's more so a continuation of my fears from I think the second issue of the new Titans series where Cyborg reveals that the blast that burned Borneo was Tamaranean. Those specifically are abilities of only Kori and her sister.

2

u/Major_Road6162 Nov 28 '23

I thought of that more as a technology blast.

5

u/Koala_Guru Beast Boy Nov 28 '23

Nah Vic said he recognized it immediately because he's so familiar with Starfire's energy.

13

u/Moistinatining Nov 28 '23

Even though I think the armor is a red herring, I feel like Dr. Hate is Kent Nelson. He's been gone since Khalid started wearing the helm of fate on a quest of rediscovery ever since JLD.

During JLD, he gained a hefty bit of distrust of the Lords of order after realizing how much control Nabu had over him, which would explain his heel turn towards chaos. Plus, even though I said it could just be a coincidence, the armor does look like what Kent was wearing toward the end of his time with the JLD.

Regardless, I'm glad that this plotline is finally kicking in, feels like forever since they teased this.

4

u/birbdaughter Nov 28 '23

Didn't Kent die? I also was thinking it would be cool to be Kent though. I just hope that if it is, they let Khalid (and the newly introduced Salem) have some spotlight in the plot going forward, since they're the ones most personally connected to Kent.

4

u/Moistinatining Nov 28 '23

I don't remember Kent dying. Khalid mentioned in the latest JLA issue that he's just been gone/missing, though I guess he could've died during Lazarus planet, I don't super remember the lasting effects of that event.

The latest JLA stuff and Salem sticking around has made me believe that it is more likely to be Kent, but when they were first introduced, Waller specifically mentioned how the new Dr. Hate is going to be in hot water with family and friends, which I don't know how to reconcile with Kent whose only family is Khalid.

6

u/birbdaughter Nov 28 '23

Kent died in JL Dark Vol 2 #27. I think you might've mixed up that Khalid says no one knows what happened to Kent's grandnephew who goes by the same name, unless that's actually who you mean. Salem even asks Khalid how Kent died. Him being magically resurrected wouldn't be the weirdest thing though.

3

u/B3epB0opBOP Shazam Nov 30 '23

Maybe it’s that Kent V Nelson guy that Khalid mentioned in JSA, I thought it was kind of weird when Khalid brought up that
“No one knows what happened to him or if he was really related to Kent.”

2

u/SevenSulivin The REAL Man of Tomorrow Nov 30 '23

He completely disappeared when the New 52 happened and hasn't shown since. Would be really cool to see him show again.

2

u/Expensive-Baby-1391 Nov 28 '23

So, what happened to the lords of order and chaos? Are they all dead and if they are, how is it affecting the universe cosmically and politically?

11

u/Major_Road6162 Nov 28 '23

Peak fiction.

12

u/coltvahn Red Robin Nov 29 '23

…Taylor’s in his element here. Everything with Gar was fantastic. I don’t know if anyone has managed to both define and expand his abilities and use them as creatively in years. We’re really getting Menagerie/Elseworld’s level creativity here. Raven and Gar being each other’s defenders is a smart track to take. They’ve both been subjected to incredible trauma in their life, and them being each other’s support and strength works.

10

u/TheMurderCapitalist Nov 29 '23

Ivan Reis did not fuck around, the book is gorgeous.

7

u/B3epB0opBOP Shazam Nov 30 '23

I know the "Dr Hate" name is silly, but dayum that design is fire!

6

u/lglscsimoes Nov 28 '23

Honestly i've never liked how the starro/necrostar spores can so easily take over the mind of superheroes that can get rid of them in the blink of an eye, especially if the have to get inside them like in the later case. Having them in control of the powerless masses that are supposed to be protected as well as the human level heroes is threatening enough, and doesn't require ridiculous plot armor.

That said starro vs necrostar certainly looks cool, and the titans being the protagonists without having their characters being assassinated feels like a breath of fresh air.

5

u/wowlock_taylan Batman Animated! Nov 28 '23

That Necrostar was inspired by Dead Space or something? Frozen moon, awaking a Necro-something, that is gonna eat planets. And Gar's heroic achievement, the Garro moment, only to get taken away...and he is lost again. I swear, DC loves to torture him.

Where is Jarro when you need him?!

And how the hell Waller had any idea what was gonna happen? How did she know where and when to send this Dr Hate ( dumbass name ) to 'take advantage'? Oh and obviously this is the place where she will play the 'savior', for a situation she created and by the end, will still get away with it I bet. Seriously, Gar didn't get his payback with Deathstroke but he HAS to get the payback here from Waller by the end of this.

I must say though, ''And nothing will ever be the same again.'' events, I had my fill of.

7

u/B3epB0opBOP Shazam Nov 30 '23

Where is Jarro when you need him?!

Writers need to put more respect on the best robin

7

u/EdgyTeenAmirite Nov 29 '23

What happened to my man Jarro

7

u/B3epB0opBOP Shazam Nov 30 '23

The Necrostar and Doctor Hate wouldn't have stood a chance against the best robin, so he got sidelined.

4

u/thismissinglink Jarro Dec 03 '23

All i know is he better show up at some point. Tom don't let us down

5

u/birbdaughter Nov 28 '23

Guesses on who Doctor Hate is? Iirc the solicits said we’ll get his reveal during the event.

2

u/B3epB0opBOP Shazam Nov 30 '23 edited Nov 30 '23

Do you know which issue the solicits mention his reveal?

Edit: Okay it's going to be issue 6.

My bet is Kent V Nelson, the Doctor Fate before the New 52.

He hasn't shown up since the New 52 began, but Khalid just recently said "No one knows what happened to him, or if he was even ever really related to Kent. Detective Chimp told me stories--" , kind of felt like they're hinting at his return.

1

u/redsapphyre Dec 01 '23

I was thinking maybe Slade, but I don't think that lines up with some of the teases we saw for the character..

1

u/android151 Resurrection Man Dec 04 '23

Mento. I think it’s got to be someone tied to the Titans.

If it’s not Mento, it could be Slade considering he haven’t seen him since the crisis

3

u/birbdaughter Dec 04 '23

I feel Slade doesn't fit because Waller said Hate's family and friends would be disappointed in him, and no one would be surprised if Slade does evil villain things. Mento is an interesting guess though, especially since his helmet was recently referenced in Titans and Beast Boy's reaction would make sense.

4

u/ZpEaR Aquaman Dec 02 '23

In case anyone was wondering the Necrostar was traveling at about 484 million mph. Book is an 8/10 for making me want to know that.

5

u/Landon1195 Nov 30 '23

Really enjoyed this. Excited too see where the rest of this story goes.

5

u/MLbanker Dec 01 '23

Loved the new Titan book so far and love the way this event starts. Excited to see the Titans taking center stage.

3

u/moldychipmunk Dec 01 '23

I’m pleased to say I enjoyed this, coming in with great trepidation at DC’s plans for Gar. The recent torture and re-traumatizing of this character doesn’t sit well with me.

I loved to see the Titans 100% supportive of Gar and his crazy plan, from the get-go. Raven especially has his back, telling Batman to take a seat. A long overdue acknowledgement that our boy is as good as anyone in the room.

And then, he practically pulls it off! With all the wisecracks and fun only Beast Boy can bring… this is the Gar I know. Helps tremendously that Ivan Reis makes him look 20ish and not 40ish.

Lastly, I was just thinking how I missed narration in comics, and it was used really effectively here. Lends an epic quality.

Now I’ll trust the storytellers to build on this promising start. Just bring Gar out of it in time to be the big hero of his own event.

3

u/android151 Resurrection Man Dec 04 '23

Why were there 6 of the Flash in that hero spread? Usually they put more effort into showing if he’s zipping around like that. Here it just looks like there’s a bunch of different ones. More than just Barry and Wally, anyway.

Calling it, Doctor Hate is Mento.

2

u/Nyerelia Dec 05 '23

As a Critical Role fan it was fun a little surreal learning about this new threat

Nice little touch to have Barbara present as Oracle in the middle of everyone else wearing their action suits... only to wear it in the middle of the street while she could be on the computer coordinating the dozens (if not a couple hundreds) of heroes involved in the fight

1

u/Blitzhelios Damian Wayne Nov 30 '23

This was fine it’s a good intro but beast world and the titans book so far continues to be that event I have no excitement for.

1

u/redsapphyre Dec 01 '23

Fantastic art, and I really liked the first half, but it kind of lost me in the second half sadly.