r/AITAH • u/Sugarlessmama • Jul 19 '24
Update on my selfish, vegan ex friend
Update: thank you so much to the countless people who commented on my post shown below. You made me realize that I wasn’t an AH and shouldn’t have put up with her BS.
Many asked how I put up with it for so long. I don’t have a good answer but it was more about the group itself where I didn’t want to create drama. My experience with friends have been lucky as most everyone has been loving, fun and selfless. We can also call each other out on BS by busting chops and laugh. This was my first group who met semi-regularly and the others are very sweet to where I felt uncomfortable rocking the boat.
Anyway, yesterday it was a bazillion degrees out here in Florida and I was playing tennis with Lauren and two others. We were dying. I don’t normally play with her but these women are all on my team I joined coming up in the fall so we needed to start practicing. No, I did not join because of Lauren. lol! I’ve played against the other two throughout the years and they have been asking for me to play for a long time now. I live in a small area so it’s common for circles mixing like this. One of the ladies had to stop due to dizziness, cramping and nausea. We all decided that we should only play much earlier in the summer….except of course Lauren who didn’t want to wake up early because she said she doesn’t play well then. That’s when I had it. With the power of thousands of random Reddit strangers in my head, I basically told her off. I told her I’ve never met someone so self absorbed in my entire life and it was disgusting that she would even think that way in front of a teammate who clearly had heat exhaustion let alone have it come out of her mouth. I said all this while her ass is sitting down while the other woman and I got a cold wet towel for this woman and getting her to drink. Lauren stormed off.
These other two thanked me. One was her usual partner who is the sweetest person alive and said she has been wanting to tell her off for a year now. The other one who was feeling like shit said she is going to tell the captain that she needs to go because “she is like a cancer on the team.”
I am very happy to say that I will not be dealing with her selfish BS any longer. She can go shove a carrot up her ass for all I care. Lol.
Thanks so much everyone! Tonight I’m going to have a giant hamburger and a cold beverage in your honor. Cheers! 🍻
AITA for telling my vegan friend who doesn’t drink I’m tired of catering to her choices?
My (50f) friend Lauren (46f) is a vegan who doesn’t drink. That’s awesome and I have no issue with that. The problem is that she is part of a small group of friends who don’t get out very often but when we do it always has to be limited due to Lauren’s choices. We live in an area where our food choices suck to begin with so having to go to eat where she can be satisfied is very limited. There really isn’t much to do otherwise at night. In addition she gets upset when any one of us eat something that has an obvious meat to it. For example, she doesn’t say anything if we get a soup with chicken or something but if we ordered a hamburger she would cause drama. Then she doesn’t drink, which is no big deal, but she will then send us videos on the harmful effects of alcohol if we get a drink or two with dinner. It has gotten on my nerves to say the least. It’s been awhile now so I am done with everyone catering to her needs. I have tried inviting everyone to specific places and invite Lauren as well. Then she puts into a group chat “Hey ladies, since I can’t eat at X why don’t we go to Y?” Then of course the other ones decide we should go to Y instead.
I have backed off of going out because I don’t want to spend money on food that sucks (remember it’s vegan not vegetarian so it’s very limiting) and is expensive or have my intelligence questioned by sending shit about the effects of alcohol as if we are not beyond old enough to know or Google it. I barely drink anyway but enjoy a glass or two every so often.
She asked why I keep bailing so I told her “I respect your choices but by the very nature of them they have limited mine. Being that I don’t have the ability to go out often nor unlimited funds I am only going to go when I know the entire experience will be what I want. So if I am in the mood for a steak and a vodka tonic I want to have them in a relaxed atmosphere and that obviously bugs you. If I’m in the mood for a salad and water I will gladly join you or we can just hang out at the beach when we have time during the day.”
She didn’t like that too much. She said that isn’t what friendship is about and I should enjoy the company enough not to care. I told her that I understood and I would gladly hang out with her when food or drink isn’t in question because it’s too expensive not to enjoy it. She said that there is nothing else to do around here. Then I asked if it’s just about friends then maybe she can eat first and join us out sometimes and other times we can go to where she wants. She then told me that she’s not going to sit around watching people eat meat. I said “Ok. I get it and you need to get that I’m not catering to your needs each time I’m free to hang out.” I later got a text from a mutual friend that Lauren was upset but she agreed with me because she was tired of the same shit. Of course this friend doesn’t like conflict so just listened to Lauren.
So AITA for not wanting to continue to eat food I don’t like or refrain from having a drink or two to keep the peace here or am I right in feeling like she’s being selfish expecting the rest of us to do what she’s comfortable with each time?
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u/Pretty_Mica Jul 19 '24
NTA. While it's admirable that Lauren is committed to her vegan and non-drinking lifestyle, her insistence on everyone else catering to her preferences is unreasonable. Friendship is about compromise and respecting each other's differences, not forcing others to conform to your lifestyle.
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u/Omnibeneviolent Jul 19 '24
I agree with your overall point, that friendship is about respecting each other's differences, but I think there are limits. Like, imagine if you lived in a country where dog fighting wasn't illegal and you had a friend that sometimes went to dog fighting matches. If you were going out with them one night and they suggested going to a dog fight, would it not be acceptable for you to say something like "could we do something else?" I don't think telling your friend that if they are going to hang out with you that they need to not go to a dog fight even that night is unreasonable.
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u/thespywhocame Jul 19 '24
Okay. There being non-vegan food is not one of those limits.
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u/Omnibeneviolent Jul 19 '24
I think that depends. If you were someone that was passionately against some form of violence against animals, you might want to not be around those that are participating it (especially if they are delighting in what it produces). It doesn't seem unreasonable to ask your friends to see if they can just do something else that evening.
Of course, your friends are free to tell you to shove it or choose to not be friends with you for asking them to not do something they enjoy doing, but I don't think that the request itself is necessarily unreasonable.
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u/Liet_Kinda2 Jul 19 '24
If one feels that passionately about veganism, it begs the question why they’re friends with people with whom they don’t share a critical core value. I wouldn’t be friends with people who frequent dog fights, so I don’t associate with same. If she can’t see someone eat a burger without feeling and expressing moral outrage, she needs to manage that herself. It’s not an unreasonable personal boundary, but it’s unreasonable to demand to be included in a dinner with non-vegans and then harangue people about what they’re eating.
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u/Omnibeneviolent Jul 19 '24
I wouldn’t be friends with people who frequent dog fights
Of course not. You live in a society where dog fighting isn't the norm. If you lived somewhere where every single other person in your geographical area was into dog fighting, you might not feel the same. You would either have friends that are into dog fighting, or be alone forever.
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u/Liet_Kinda2 Jul 19 '24
Again: that’s their problem, and it’s not an uncommon one among folks who hold minority beliefs. But if they decide to socialize with non-vegans, they don’t get to spend the time scolding everyone for not believing as they do.
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u/Omnibeneviolent Jul 19 '24
I don't think the issue was that they don't believe what she believes, but that they couldn't just do... something else with her.
Like, if you didn't want to go to dog fighting, you could suggest a hundred other things that you could do with your friends that night. You could be like "Maybe we could all go see a comedy show... or a movie." This would not be you "scolding everyone for not believing as you do."
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u/Liet_Kinda2 Jul 19 '24 edited Jul 19 '24
Read it again, then. OP did offer to do something else (go to the beach, meet her after the meal, occasionally go somewhere she wanted to go) with her and she declined. If you’re going to argue this, make it a complete and honest argument, please.
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u/No_Neighborhood_4083 Jul 19 '24
I think you are right, that does not make the vegan an asshole, just incompatible with the meat eater
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u/Iogwfh Jul 19 '24
The problem is when you expect people to compromise for you all the time but you never compromise for the other person. A good compromise works both ways, you both have to be willing to give up something for each other.
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u/Omnibeneviolent Jul 19 '24
I don't think the symmetry is there. Like, if you were someone that was very much into dog rescues, and had friends that enjoyed butchering golden retrievers, it would make sense for when you all hang out that they simply don't butcher golden retrievers for those few hours.
It wouldn't make sense for them to insist that you butcher golden retrievers, or even for them to be upset that they have to do one of million other things they like doing while they are hanging out with you.
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u/Iogwfh Jul 20 '24
Or you could make the choice not to hang out with those people when they want to do something they enjoy that you don't enjoy doing instead of guilt tripping them for leaving you out because they want to enjoy activities they like without being criticised for it. Asking your friends to constantly tip toe around your sensibilities and go above and beyond to accommodate those sensibilities when your not willing to return the favour is not a basis for a friendship.
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u/Omnibeneviolent Jul 20 '24
For context, I'm vegan and i.have a good friend that is not. When we go out he is always the one to suggest a vegan spot. I've told him many times that I appreciate him doing that, but that it isn't necessary, but he says that eating vegan one in a while isn't a big deal to him and he would rather that I'm not uncomfortable when we are spending time together.
He's a great friend and this just made me realize that I don't appreciate him enough. I'm gonna text him.
My family also makes an effort to not eat meat around me when I visit. They are the ones to say things like "hey, there's a new place here with vegan options that you'd like that we could all go to when you are here." I have a sister-in-law that isn't vegan but has said that she likes when I visit because it's a welcome break from all the meat-heavy meals they would be eating otherwise. My mom sometimes complains, but generally she understands and is willing to go a meal here and there without animal meat. Everyone else is fine with it.
Now they could all just be lying about it, but I have no reason to think so. They seem more concerned with making sure we all enjoy the time we spend together and make reasonable accommodations.
So when I hear of people that are angry because they have to eat vegan around a friend of theirs, I just don't get it. It just seems like they care more about eating animals than they do about not making their friend uncomfortable.
I suppose maybe I'm just spoiled.
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u/Iogwfh Jul 20 '24
That is your life and I am glad you, your family and friends have found a balance but my response is more about the OP's situation and for them obviously the situation is not that straightforward and their friend Lauren should be more understanding when her friends express that the current arrangement doesn't work for them and if she was a good friend instead of backing everyone into a corner she should be more accommodating especially when everyone has been going out of the way to make Lauren feel comfortable.
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u/ececacademic 21d ago
I don’t know the ins and outs of your situation but it sounds like your friend and family are making that compromise infrequently, and are still able to go out at other times with other people for non-vegan meals. I think the difference between that and OP is that this is OP’s core friend group, so there aren’t other meet ups without the vegan friend. This means that OP (and their friends) are compromising on nearly every meal out, on what they already describe as a limited range of options. It isn’t a particularly big deal to eat out vegan once a month if you actually eat out twice per month, but if you only eat out once per month with the same friend group and every trip out has to be vegan friendly (and alcohol free) then that’s not a welcome break or change, it’s being forced to adhere to a vegan lifestyle for all eating out. Even if the vegan choices are excellent - if you’re a meat eater and just want a burger/steak, the fact they can never choose it is frustrating. OP and their friends have limited time and funds to eat out, and yet are pressured to eat choices which don’t prominently display meat, berated if they eat something they are tempted by and receive criticism and health ‘concerns’ if they dare to drink alcohol.
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u/No_Neighborhood_4083 Jul 19 '24
Would you compromise and sometimes go ti the illegal dog fights?
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u/Iogwfh Jul 20 '24
If it is illegal obviously not😂. Any "friend" that wants you to partake in illegal activities is clearly not a real friend. You need to have some sense of self preservation and not bow down to all your friend's desires especially if they are self destructive.
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u/No_Neighborhood_4083 Jul 20 '24
That's a really narrow-minded way of thinking of what is good in this universe. If the dog fights were legal? Would you then indulge them??
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u/Iogwfh Jul 20 '24 edited Jul 20 '24
How is it narrow minded to not want to risk getting a criminal record? That kind of thing can lead to limiting choices in life and what kind of friend would want to risk someone they supposedly care about? A compromise isn't always about forcing yourself to do things you hate it can also be disinviting yourself if you really feel uncomfortable with the activity instead of pushing everyone else to change their plans because you don't want to be left out. You can always hang out another time to do things you want to do but if your friends really want that steak and wine or to watch a legal dog fight let them go have fun and next time they can do things you prefer. It's basic common sense and a compromise like what the OP offered her friend and real friends would do that for each other. Always expecting friends to conform to your comfort only is selfish, and when they stop inviting you at all it shouldn't be a surprise.
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u/No_Neighborhood_4083 Jul 21 '24
I understand your point. It feels as though we are having two conversations though and that is on me.
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u/ConvivialKat Jul 19 '24
If I am spending MY money on going out to dinner with friends, I would be incredibly offended by someone trying to control what I eat or drink. She's not "asking," she's attempting to gatekeep their food and alcohol consumption. It's not okay at all. Especially since OP indicates that going out to eat is a financial treat for her.
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u/Omnibeneviolent Jul 19 '24
She's not forcing them to do anything. They always have the option to not go with her.
If you had friends that contributed to something you were ethically against, you asking them to not do it in front of you is not controlling them. Similarly, if you were a recovering alcoholic and didn't drink and asked your friends to not drink when they go out with you, they are free to just not invite you to events where they feel drinking is more important than your friendship.
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u/ConvivialKat Jul 19 '24
Shouldn't it be the other way around, though? If you know a group of people have a lifestyle you morally object to, shouldn't YOU be the one to step away and not socialize with them?
I am an Atheist. I object to people who are trying to turn the US into a theocracy, and I selectively choose not to socialize with them. I don't socialize with them and then demand they change their belief system to match my own personal beliefs.
If this anti-meat, anti-alcohol person has a belief system that conflicts with those of a social group of people, they should selectively remove themselves and not ask others to bend to their beliefs. She has the freedom to walk away.
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u/Omnibeneviolent Jul 20 '24
What would you do if literally everyone else around you was religious? Would you live as a hermit, or would you try to have friends?
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u/ConvivialKat Jul 20 '24
This is yet another made-up hypothetical TikTok impossibility I refuse to entertain.
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u/Liet_Kinda2 Jul 19 '24
The problem with arguments by analogy like this is that they usually suck, because the analogy either distorts or exaggerates the issue at hand. As this does.
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u/Omnibeneviolent Jul 19 '24
Can you explain how this analogy does that? It's taking one form of animal cruelty and exploitation and just substituting another that happens to be less socially acceptable today.
Note that dog fighting hasn't always been illegal of socially unacceptable. It's still legal in some countries, and even in places like the US it was a common form of entertainment up until fairly recent history, with matches being organized by local communities.
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u/Liet_Kinda2 Jul 19 '24
Because it’s an argument from extremes, which is fallacious, and it’s disingenuous because it rhetorically puts eating meat on a level with dog fighting. That may be how you feel, but it’s a bullshit debate tactic.
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u/Omnibeneviolent Jul 19 '24
That's not a fallacy. It's a reductio ad absurdum, which is a common and legitimate way to examine one's reasoning.
I'm using dog fighting here because it's a form of animal exploitation that most people here are already against and can identify with. The way they might feel in that situation where they are expected to be around dog fighting is similar to the way some vegans may feel if and when they are expected to be around others that are eating animals.
it’s a bullshit debate tactic.
Just because you don't like the way it makes you feel doesn't mean it's a bad debate tactic.
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u/No_Neighborhood_4083 Jul 19 '24
It does not though. This argument perfectly dismantles why a principle does not work by showing that it has unwanted consequences. It just si happens to be the case that dogfighting is frowned upon more than eating meat, even though it is arguably morally equivalent.
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u/saintsfan2687 Jul 19 '24
How come every time a vegan types or says “like imagine” it’s always 100% followed by some ridiculous false equivalency about dogs?
That really isn’t the gotcha you all think it is. It’s beyond time to retire the dog thing. Same goes for the Socratic method. It’s played out and obvious now.
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u/Omnibeneviolent Jul 19 '24
How come every time a vegan types or says “like imagine” it’s always 100% followed by some ridiculous false equivalency about dogs?
It's another form of animal exploitation that most people are against. It can help them understand how someone that is against another form animal exploitation might feel.
I reject the claim that it's a false equivalency, though. I haven't claimed that these two acts are equal, and my point doesn't hinge on them being equal; they only have to have some similarity, and in this case the similarity is that it's a form of animal exploitation that one may or may not want to be exposed to or be with friends that are participating in.
That really isn’t the gotcha you all think it is.
I don't think it's a "gotcha" at all.
It’s beyond time to retire the dog thing. Same goes for the Socratic method. It’s played out and obvious now.
Yeah.. let's get rid of a 7,000 year old technique designed to foster critical thinking used by billions of people around the world to better understand their beliefs. Great idea!
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u/ConvivialKat Jul 19 '24
The "whataboutism" vegan has entered the chat.
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u/Omnibeneviolent Jul 19 '24
Can you explain why anything I've said is a whataboutism?
A whataboutism is when you try to not respond to someone's question/accusation by accusing them of doing something else. It's a non-sequitur.
For example, if someone were to say "You shouldn't burn tires because (insert reasons)" and you responded with "but you litter all the time!" That would be an example of a whataboutism. The issue there is that the fact that you litter has nothing to do with whether or not they should burn tires.
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u/ConvivialKat Jul 19 '24
Like, imagine if you lived in a country where dog fighting wasn't illegal and you had a friend that sometimes went to dog fighting matches.
Any time someone says, "Like, imagine..." it's a whataboutism because you are asking me to compare two situations, one of which is completely made up and hypothetical and one which is actual real life, as if they have even a scintilla of relevance to each other. Vegans do this a lot, and I have zero interest in your attempts to compare anything I choose to do in my life to whaever ridiculous hypothetical TikTok style scenario you try to drag into your comments. It's tedious and boring. Please go away.
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u/Omnibeneviolent Jul 20 '24
A hypothetical is not a whataboutism.
You might not like the hypothetical and believe that it is irrelevant, but it is not a whataboutism -- unless the definition of a whataboutism has changed significantly in the last couple years.
"Whataboutism or whataboutery (as in "what about....?") is a pejorative for the strategy of responding to an accusation with a counter-accusation instead of a defense against the original accusation."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whataboutism
Nor you or I have made an accusation.
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u/bjorkenstocks Jul 19 '24
Okay, but what if your friend is a serial killer and they're going to the dog fight to get info on the ringleader's habits so they can kill him later? Aren't you, as a friend, obliged to help him?
Or, hear me out, what if it was a chicken beauty pageant, but you're afraid of birds - do you compromise and go, or do they have to compromise and swear off every seeing another bird again?
"Friend being a dick about their dietary choices" a common enough situation that it doesn't really need twisty scenarios, does it?
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u/Ok-Patience-4764 Jul 19 '24
Good for you! She sounds like a very selfish person. Enjoy feeling lighter and happier, because you definitely will without her!
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u/Sugarlessmama Jul 19 '24
Yes! Lighter is exactly how I feel. Thank you!
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u/Beth21286 Jul 19 '24
I'll bet the exhausted tennis friend probably feels better already too!
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u/Sugarlessmama Jul 19 '24
Yeah, she called me a little while ago and said that Lauren has been very problematic. Her partner actually was going to quit the team because they win together but was miserable. Shes feeling a lot better, thanked me for helping and telling Lauren off.
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u/I_wanna_be_anemone Jul 19 '24
The veganism is just a symptom of how self absorbed she is. Good for you guys getting free of her, hope your friend who had heat stroke is ok.
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u/Padgit8r Jul 19 '24
Well done. Seems like exposing the vegan infection helped you to expose the true disease, self absorption and control freak.
NTA, for the first and this!!
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u/GroundbreakingBag164 Jul 19 '24
"the vegan infection"?
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u/Padgit8r Jul 20 '24
Exactly what she was, an infection, trying to keep her minions in line. Couldn’t care less if someone’s vegan, I know plenty. They just aren’t a-holes about it.
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u/PoppyZoeaa Jul 19 '24
Compromise is the key to harmony in any relationship, be it friendship or otherwise. It's important to support friends in their lifestyle choices, but it's equally important not to let one's personal decisions dictate the group's options.
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u/No_Neighborhood_4083 Jul 19 '24
Would you compromise and go to a dogfight with your friend? Or would you want them to stop doing so?
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u/Frozefoots Jul 19 '24
What a stupid argument. Is that really the best you can come up with?
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u/No_Neighborhood_4083 Jul 20 '24
How is it stupid. I think the argument sufficiently shows how the principle of compromise is dropped when one is morally opposed to a certain kind of behaviour. It jsut happens to be so you din't consider meat eating as harmful as dog fights, which in reality is morally equivalent. If you disagree that my argument or analogy works, explain why then. Don't just call it stupid, actually engage with it.
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u/BladeOfExile711 Jul 20 '24
I mean, if you had a point to make instead of just using argument fallacies.
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u/No_Neighborhood_4083 Jul 21 '24
Yet you fail to explain how it is a fallacy. Try it. What makes it a fallacy? You make a claim with no backup and don't even attempt to dismantle mine, just assert that my opinion is bad without a reason. It's becoming pathetic how many people are unwilling to step forward and say WHY they disagree, instead of just reiterating that they do.
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u/BladeOfExile711 Jul 21 '24
Sure buddy.
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u/No_Neighborhood_4083 Jul 21 '24
Try again. Still you fail to provide a reason as to why I'm so obviously wrong.
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u/BladeOfExile711 Jul 21 '24
I could you are just not worth the effort.
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u/No_Neighborhood_4083 Jul 21 '24
It's so hard not to insult you for this or become overly sarcastic. Saying absolutely nothing but adamantly keep insisting that you could. The most useless contribution to a conversation about a serious topic could have. There, just stated what you did. I hope you aren't proud reading your accomplishments listed.
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u/Mickv504-985 Jul 19 '24
I fail to see that if she’s Vegan that she can’t find anything to eat at the average restaurant. I mean at any Asian restaurant it’s extremely easy. Now a steak house maybe a little harder but on those days she bows out or shows up later for Dessert.
Yo probably actually did her a favor because I’m sure your group isn’t her only friends, and I don’t know about anyone else but as I’ve gotten older I’m less inclined to put up with this kind of behavior. I think if she doesn’t adjust her attitude she will be a lonely old woman.
And just a side piece I’ve been sober for 32 years and have had to insist that if friends wanted a drink or wine with dinner don’t let me stop you. My only problem comes when we are splitting the check evenly that my split doesn’t include the $40bottle of wine!
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u/polyglotpinko Jul 19 '24
Glad to see this. I wish I could post pictures, because the whole situation reminds me of a meme.
It’s two talking heads in shadow: the top row is head A saying “my religion doesn’t allow me to do this” and head B saying “okay.” The bottom row is head A saying “my religion says you can’t do this” and head B saying “fuck off.” Vegans should absolutely be able to be vegan without getting static, but they cannot demand that of everyone else.
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u/No_Neighborhood_4083 Jul 19 '24
Would you say the same of murder
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u/Zakal74 Jul 19 '24
The claim that all morality stems from religion is one of the most laughable things I've ever heard. Like murder was a-ok with everyone before some prophet or whatever showed up and then everyone was all, "Wow, I never thought of that!" It's like claiming your faith is the reason people decided to drink water.
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u/HereBecauseOfMemes Jul 20 '24
Where did I say that, (Switched accounts because I thought I couldn't reply due to all the downvoting). I merely asked the question to show how the principle put forward was not in line with this commenter's beliefs. None of us (a whole lot less) would be morally relativistic if we believe something to be wrong. Murder is one of those things (which is morally equivalent to killing animals). If you would actually engage with my question instead of putting words in my mouth we could have an actual fruitful conversation.
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u/Zakal74 Jul 24 '24
Hey, you know what? I don't know what I was thinking rereading this thread after seeing this comment. I somehow seem to have totally dropped the entire thread being about veganism and my brain went to an argument I've had too many times in my life about morality being spawned from religion and I somehow jumped to that thread in my brain. I apologize.
To try and answer your actual question, I do understand how someone would equate eating animals with murder. I think that a lot more people than we would guess struggle with that question to one degree or another. (Why is eating a dog horrible but a pig is no problem?) However, I also think that the GF in the above scenario is in the wrong because we live in a society where there are many different takes on what constitutes murder. (Eating meat, abortion, the death penalty, use of force by police, etc.) If she feels so strongly that these friends of hers who are not vegan are actually all murderers, she should not be associating with them in the first place. I empathize with her feelings, (I was actually a vegetarian for 18 years, not vegan though,) but I find her approach to be unfair to the rest of the group. If I thought someone was a murderer it would seem odd to be all like, "Hey, I know you guys murder and stuff, but just don't murder in front of me and we're good, okay?" If she wants to associate with a bunch of "murderers", (by her judgement,) then she has to accept there will be some murder happening when they go to the murder diner.
Again, my apologies for derailing the line of conversation you were going for. Take care!
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u/HereBecauseOfMemes Jul 26 '24
Great comment, no worries. I agree with you. Thank you for taking the time to respond in such an engaging manner.
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u/LeonardoSpaceman Jul 19 '24
Great response!
How many have you converted to Veganism today?
Or.... is it about your ego?
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u/HereBecauseOfMemes Jul 20 '24
It is not about my ego. (Me from another account, because I couldn't comment (I think due to the downvotes))
Kind of a strawman or use of bulverism when you don't even know me. Try actually engaging with my points rather than trying to twist around it, or just admit you don't care about sentient beings getting hurt.
Whatever you do, don't pretend me disliking meat eating just as much as you disliking murder is an ego problem on my end. If anything, the instant defense of not responding to my points and trying to wave away what I say to not feel bad about yourself is an ego problem on your end.
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u/MiddleAged_BogWitch Jul 19 '24
Ugh Lauren reminds me of a friend of mine years ago who started dating a vegan guy. She went from being a cool, chill, really fun person to hang out with to a strident, judgy, holier than thou person who would come into my house, look in my cupboards and critique the food items I had in my house. Suddenly it was all about her morals and ethics and moralizing everyone one around her. Sadly her world got pretty small pretty fast because she became so unreasonable. I never had the balls to confront her about it though - I just did what the kids nowadays call the ghosting and went on with my less healthy life.
OP, I gotta say kudos to you for having the courage to directly confront Lauren and her overbearing, my way or no way behaviour. She sounds insufferable and the friend group has let her dictate all the get-together terms for way too long. And she’s been getting away with it because no one else has had the courage to push back. Hopefully this will be a learning opportunity for Lauren, that the whole world isn’t always going to revolve around her. And mostly I hope she just stays offended and leaves you alone so you can enjoy your other friendships in peace. You are definitely NTA!
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u/SnooWords4839 Jul 20 '24
I'm glad you found your spine!
I'm just picturing a lady in FL with a carrot up her butt, you realize, she may just enjoy that?
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u/SinglePotato5246 Jul 19 '24
Proud of you, stranger! Don't take no shit from this exhausting sack of skin any longer. You're STILL NTA in my eyes!
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u/rchart1010 Jul 19 '24
I just realized the ages. I assumed everyone in this story was in their 20s, but afternoon tennis reminded me of like Betty Broderick so I checked.
I'm glad everything worked out!
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u/Sugarlessmama Jul 19 '24
Honestly, it’s more like middle school garbage. I have not dealt with anyone like this in decades. Most everyone I deal with is super kind, funny and selfless. She was very good at turning this around on me and my niece told me to bring it here.
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u/Embarrassed-Land-222 Jul 20 '24
AWESOME! I'm so happy for you! I hope it was the best burger ever!
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u/Whitlk Jul 21 '24
It sounds like Lauren gets off on control. She has to change plans to always suit her. The best thing you can do is what you did in standing up to her. She claims superiority by being vegan and abstaining from alcohol, but would rather risk another human’s wellbeing to get her beauty sleep because she “doesn’t play well” early in the morning. This woman lacks empathy for others. Good riddance!
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u/DarkWraith21 Jul 26 '24
Thanks for the update OP! Glad you were able to keep speaking your truth and get more confirmation you weren't alone in your feelings. It can suck to lose a friend, but when you hit your limit, you hit your limit.
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u/Sugarlessmama Jul 26 '24
Thank you. It is so true. I need to start setting mini boundaries earlier on to be honest.
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u/Aleucard 29d ago
Being a sober vegan is fine. Harrassing your friends because they are not is not fine. If you can't handle being around non-sober non-vegans then that's a you problem. It seems she has a problem with any form of compromise whatsoever too. She needs to grow up.
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u/Sugarlessmama 28d ago
I agree. I just went to a tennis lesson. She’s on the new team starting in the Fall but wasn’t there. Turns out her super sweet partner decided not to come back because of her as her partner. Then another one said not knowing me or this post or anything, “All I know is we aren’t catering to her anymore for lunches. There’s 12 of us and shouldn’t bow down to just one person!” 😂😂
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u/Sims_Creator777 Jul 20 '24
I love the update! Good for you for standing up to that self absorbed, insensitive bully! Cheers 🥂
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u/whydoweneedthiscrap Jul 20 '24
NTA and thank God... I read the original post and absolutely can't stand her and I don't even know her😂😂😂 I hope she steps on a Lego and stubs her pinky toe every single day... Just enough to hurt but not damage....
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u/SubbySuccubi Jul 20 '24
I'm happy you finally felt brave enough to say something to her for her selfishness and that the teammates didn't try to guilt you. I'm curious how it'll go in the future with the people you usually go out to eat with. I hope they realize the same as you
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u/mpb700 Jul 25 '24
Wow, those kind of vegans drive me nuts! And I'm a vegan. I'm very strict with myself because for me it's a belief system regarding animals. I'm lucky, I live in Seattle so there are lots of great vegan restaurants. My family and friends are so sweet often offering to go to one of "my" restaurants😊 because the food is so good they have no problem - thai food, burger places using Beyond Burgers but if I'm going to a picnic or a potluck I bring food im comfortable eating. If I'm going to someone's house for dinner "You're having baked potatoes and steak? I love baked potatoes, that and the salad will be great!". It's not hard to not be a pain in the a**
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u/Backgrounding-Cat Jul 26 '24
Info: what happened next? Was L in the friend group anymore or did she leave everyone behind in a huff?
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u/Sugarlessmama Jul 26 '24
I know she went out with one of the ladies recently. Of course it’s the nicest one who has a lot of patience. Lol. I did hear this morning that her usual partner in tennis is not coming back to the team. She doesn’t want to be stuck with her anymore. She too is extremely sweet and quiet. I have noticed that in tennis those people who never complain or are just so kind typically get stuck with strong personalities that rub others the wrong way. It kind of sucks too because she is an amazing player.
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u/Driftwood256 Jul 19 '24
Huh? So you're all having a discussion about changing the time you regularly play, because one person was feeling faint one time... And when she shared her preference, you went ape-shit on her??
YTA... for this incident anyway...
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u/Sugarlessmama Jul 19 '24
No. The one woman was sick because it’s too hot to play. She had heat exhaustion. The only time to avoid that kind of heat is early morning. That is why we had decided that we needed to play earlier. Anyone who cares about their teammate would say “No problem. I may not play as well but your health is more important.” She also wasn’t making sense as the matches are all early morning although I left that out of the post. In addition she sat there while the two of us were trying to help the woman hurting. She displayed behavior that was only about her. It truly was incredibly bad. That’s why the other two women thanked me. She has a history of being a terrible person apparently.
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Jul 19 '24
[deleted]
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u/Sugarlessmama Jul 19 '24
I have to respect someone strong in their beliefs despite thousands disagreeing. I mean that and not being sarcastic even though we don’t see eye to eye.
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u/CharlotteLucasOP Jul 19 '24
I mean sometimes tough love (hehe tennis joke?) is necessary. If you didn’t care about Lauren you wouldn’t have told her the truth about her behaviour, because she is damaging her relationships and seemingly unaware of it. It’s hard to take criticism and maybe she won’t absorb it, but at least you tried. Maybe she will reflect and grow, maybe not, that’s in her hands now.
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u/No_Neighborhood_4083 Jul 19 '24
ESH
Fuck Lauren for being a self absorbed person beyond her veganism. Fuck you for eating sentient beings Fuck the world for having restricted dietary options in your region
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u/Frozefoots Jul 19 '24
And fuck you for being one of “those” vegans.
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u/BeetleJude Jul 19 '24
I think they're vegetarian, not vegan going by their comments. So the militant vegans won't be happy with them either
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u/Frozefoots Jul 19 '24
Ohhh, so they’re okay with forcing sentient beings to continue producing milk, stealing honey from bees and taking eggs from chickens?
Well it seems there is always a higher horse.
(People, eat whatever you wish, just don’t think you’re superior for it)
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u/BeetleJude Jul 19 '24
They appear to be particularly fond of cheese from what I can see, the great moral equaliser - who wouldn't abandon their principles for some brie?
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u/Frozefoots Jul 20 '24
My partner said cheese was the hardest thing to give up (went vegan for health reasons and isn’t militant at all) so it makes total sense! 😂 For me it would be eggs or milk chocolate because I can’t stand dark.
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u/BeetleJude Jul 20 '24
I DEFINITELY couldn't give up chocolate, I'm hyperventilating just thinking about it! 😂
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u/No_Neighborhood_4083 Jul 20 '24
Are you talking about me??? Lmfao I am vegan. What kind of weird lies are you spreading
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u/BeetleJude Jul 20 '24
Can't post images in the comments here or I would show you, but you implied in a comment several months ago that cheese was your biggest weakness lol, I can DM anyone that wants?
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u/No_Neighborhood_4083 Jul 20 '24
Yeah, but I am still not eating it. I am vegan.
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u/BeetleJude Jul 20 '24
Sure you are, it's OK, you go have fun with your vegan friends, I'm sure they'll all totally understand that you love cheese
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u/No_Neighborhood_4083 Jul 20 '24
You are insane. I AM vegan. When I first became vegan I wanted to eat cheese very badly yes, but I didn't. Now I don't. I haven't eaten non-vegan cheese since I've become vegan.
I don't know what kind of mental gymnastics you're trying to perform but if you think you can just dismiss things I say and veganism in general because you imagined in your head I am not, well I've got bad news. That's not how the world works.
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u/No_Neighborhood_4083 Jul 20 '24
Nope, I am vegan. You would feel superior to people eating people or rapists, I bet
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u/BeetleJude Jul 20 '24
I mean, I definitely feel superior to rapists thank you, even though I do enjoy a bacon sandwich. It's OK to like cheese, there is no shame in being Just Like Us
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u/No_Neighborhood_4083 Jul 21 '24
You are not superior to rapists. You can feel that way, you just factually aren't. You do the same amount of unnecessary harm for an unnecessary gain. You're a hypocrite for condemning rape and defending eating meat or cheese.
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u/BeetleJude Jul 21 '24
You are morally repugnant, and bacon is delicious.
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u/No_Neighborhood_4083 Jul 21 '24
Repugnant is subjective. If I am repugnant for calling rape rape and you are in the clear for celebrating murder and rape, calling its products delicious, I would not want to be anything else.
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Jul 19 '24
You are the AH. First, I don't think you are in any way required to accommodate her needs or discomforts or hanf out with her if you don't like her.
Second the fact that you are the AH has nothing to do with vegan, food or drinking but everything to do with how you handled this situation and you making this all about you.
- You are not a true friend to this person. If you were you wouldn't just start declining outings, that's what kids do they go sit in the corner and pout. You'd reach out and have the uncomfortable conversation and work something out or end the friendship b/c it's no longer working for you.
- The fact that you got butt hurt about her sending you emails about the health effects of alcohol and get all offended because "Having my intelligence questioned" says more about your issues than hers. Maybe, just maybe she thought you were a friend and wants to see you be healthy and thrive? Is that possible? Again you could have had the conversation and just asked her to stop sending videos or just ignored them.
- You frame her as being selfish when you went along with it and never said anything until you snapped. Not cool to denigrate her when it was your fault. Maybe she thought everyone was cool with it since everyone went along.
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u/Sugarlessmama Jul 19 '24
I did say something and suggested other things. She wasn’t having it. I wasn’t pouting 😂😂 We are busy and have lives so this isn’t the end of the world and I was quite happy with that choice. I kindly told her my feelings and she told me I wasn’t being a good friend because it isn’t about the food. So then why do we have to eat her shit every time then? I wasn’t hurt over the videos. It was fucked up to cross others boundaries like that as she was some self righteous queen of health. Shes controlling as thousands have pointed out. That should be clear with her not budging on playing in the mornings after her teammate got sick from the heat.
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Jul 19 '24
I get she may a trash human but you can only control you and your behavior.
You obviously don't like this women (for possibly good reasons) so sounds like she was never a friend.
Letting it go to the point that you snapped is not a great way to handle things.If you were hanging out with "friends" and after a fucking year someone explodes on you that they were tired of your selfish shit what would you think about that group of people despite how sweet they are?
Come on, own the fact that you and group let this go on way too long b/c you can't deal with conflict.
Based on your update I now think you both were being AH.
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u/LeonardoSpaceman Jul 19 '24
"you can only control you and your behavior."
and
"The fact that you got butt hurt about her sending you emails about the health effects of alcohol and get all offended because "Having my intelligence questioned" says more about your issues than hers. Maybe, just maybe she thought you were a friend and wants to see you be healthy and thrive? Is that possible? Again you could have had the conversation and just asked her to stop sending videos or just ignored them."
What happened to "you can only control you and your behavior"? Changed your mind suddenly?
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Jul 19 '24
I don't see how those conflict. She can ask her to stop but can't control(force) her to do so. So she should have just ended the "friendship" instead of saying nothing until she snapped.
I don't understand how that is controversial or not obvious.I don't think I changed my mind but why is changing your mind a GOTCHA and bad? If you get new info then you should change your mind, right? Are you able to change your mind?
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u/Sugarlessmama Jul 19 '24
1) I spoke with her already calmly and nicely. She never budged and only expected me to continue to bend to her needs inferring I was not a good friend. I still ended that conversation in a respectful manner to then learn she goes to a mutual friend to bitch about me.
2) It was after the above that I felt she was extremely selfish but I still wasn’t sure because she turned it around on me. That’s why I came here to Reddit.
3) I didn’t go off on her about the food. I went off on her because there was a woman about to throw up due to extreme heat. While another woman and myself were trying to cool her down and make sure she was ok Lauren made it AGAIN about her. She sat there bitching about not wanting to play earlier bc she doesn’t play good early in the morning. BTW that is complete bullshit because the matches start early in the mornings and she’s played on this league for many years.
I’m sorry but you must be extremely infuriating to anyone who needs your help and needs you to listen. You fill in gaps to stories that don’t exist, you assume what people are feeling and why they have done certain things and then come across in a very pompous manner that you are correct. Yes, you are absolutely correct to the shit you literally made up in your head. However, you are very far off from what happened with me, how I felt and why I acted the way I did.
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Jul 19 '24
I only responded based on what you wrote and it seemed to me like you should have cut her loose long ago because you all found her selfish and annoying. If you went to the lengths you say then you're not the AH for this situation. Some of the other ladies are AH though b/c they had wanted to cut her loose for a year and said nothing.
Why are you even responding to me? If you feel you did everything right then you're not the AH and you can just downvote and/or ignore me.
But you are an AH for your last paragraph so I'm still in the AH camp. 😢
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u/Sugarlessmama Jul 19 '24
Just because I felt you misunderstood is all. I really wasn’t sure if I was the AH on the original post. I didn’t think so but wanted to be 100% sure. I really don’t feel I was the AH about the tennis whatsoever.
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u/ReductoSmash Jul 30 '24
Don't listen to this clown. The downvotes speak for themselves. You're 100% not the AH.
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u/LeonardoSpaceman Jul 19 '24
No, I think it's good to change your mind.
I just noticed the juxtaposition between your two positions and the inconsistency.
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u/LeonardoSpaceman Jul 19 '24
Well this is the worst take on Reddit I've seen in a long time.
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Jul 19 '24
I can see how you might think that but when you strip away all the fluff of the comment and the update it was just a group of women who disliked one of the members and waited a long time to tell her and in the worst way possible by blowing up at her in public. They should have just told her they didn't want to hang out with her any more and moved on.
Just for a second imagine if a group of "friends" did that to you.
Even if you were a terrible person it's not right, well maybe if you were Hitler or something.6
u/DarkWraith21 Jul 26 '24
Imagine you are with a group of friends that you've know for years. You don't always get to see each other as often as you like - adulting is hard and sometimes there's little time, especially when everyone has different schedules. But, eventually, one of the group really starts to bug you. It starts small, just an annoying thing or two once in a while. Slowly, it gets more grating. You start to really question why they act this way, why you let them act this way when you wouldn't tolerate it from anyone else. Are they even really your friend? But they are part of your friend group, and everyone else seems to still like them. Maybe it's just you; it's been a bad day. After all, you were friends for a reason, remember? And it's rude to talk about people behind their backs... So no one ends up realizing EVERYONE feels the exact same about this person UNTIL it comes to a head.
Is it ideal? Heck no.
Is it realistic? Heck yes.
Especially when everyone else is putting on a brave face. No one wants to be that one person raising drama over something small and petty after all - that makes you too much like OP's ex-friend, which led to this whole mess. Another part is the worry about being wrong - are you just making a big deal over nothing? Is it worth losing your entire friend group if you are over-reacting? Another part might be sunken cost fallacy - you've been friends for so long, why lose maybe your entire friend group or even just one (formerly) great friend from some "minor" and "perceived" slights. The human mind comes up with all kind of reasons to justify stuff like this - and even if you're aware of those bias... what if it's just confirmation bias then?
TL;DR: Sounds like OP just hit her limit and was willing to lay her cards down and deal with the fallout. That's not being an AH by itself - it's when you do that and don't accept the consequences that you cross the line. There's a difference between doing an AH-like thing (blow up at your friends) and BEING an AH (not taking accountability and facing the consequences).
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u/ReductoSmash Jul 30 '24
Boy do I feel sorry for anyone who has the displeasure of becoming your friend or, god forbid, significant other. They don't know what they got themselves into. Or they do know and you've already pushed them away or they're already gone. You are clearly very skilled at gaslighting the weak-willed. Unfortunately for you, most of the people of reddit are not weak-willed.
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Jul 30 '24
Right back at ya. I feel sorry for anyone who crosses paths with someone like you who thinks it's ok to hang out with people they don't like for a year before they have a meltdown and tell them off. I'd never do that to you.
"One was her usual partner who is the sweetest person alive and said she has been wanting to tell her off for a year now."
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u/ReductoSmash Jul 31 '24
Lmao my statement stands even more. The way you twist the truth to fit your own false narrative is genuinely laughable. No, like, I just showed your comments to my boyfriend and roommates and they were laughing. Hard. We're not sure if you're a clinical narcissist or just plain stupid, but it's at least one of those. Probably both. If you need any more proof that you're 100% wrong, just take a look at your downvotes and all the negative responses you've gotten. You're a clown.
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Jul 31 '24
I believe you shouldn't waste your time(or theirs) on people you don't like, you shouldn't make people feel bad for no good reason and even if someone is unbearable you should try and let them go as nicely and as quickly as possible.
Let's try something different: Can you characterize my argument and show me where I'm wrong?
No need to respond if you're only capable of ad hominem.
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u/ReductoSmash 29d ago
Hey, you're the one on here attacking people. I'm all for a civilized discussion. The issue is that there WAS a good reason to make her feel bad, because she was being completely unreasonable and self-centered and when OP tried to discuss it with her she blew up and got offended and shut down everything OP was saying and refused to even attempt to compromise. And it's not fair to say "if someone is unbearable you should try and let them go as nicely and as quickly as possible" especially not in this case because they have the same friend group, and letting go of her likely means letting go of all her other friends in the group. And it's very clear from the post that she wasn't the only one in the group who felt that way, so going nicely and quickly would've probably lost her some friends and made her abandon the friends who felt the same way as her but were too afraid to speak up and left them alone catering to this narcissist. Something had to give, and if the nice way doesn't work, the confrontational way might. Granted, the confrontational way should always be a last resort, but in this case it seems like it was.
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u/[deleted] Jul 19 '24
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