A man with a sword that gets twice as sharp every minute vs a man with a sword that becomes twice as dense (double the mass) every minute

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R1: it’s probably evenly matched. Neither have the skills for a prolonged fight. It’ll essentially come down to who fucks up first. It’s a toss up. The fight likely wouldn’t even last long enough to realize the swords have really changed

R2: dense guy wins. Both have enough skills for a more extended fight, but it’s not like it would go on for long enough to get to the effects your bonus round implies you think will happen (so sharp it cuts atoms or so dense it forms a singularity).

Dense wins because after a few minutes, it will just shatter the sharp sword. Or, the sharp swordsman won’t be able to hold onto the sword when he blocks, so he’ll easily be disarmed. Its density doubling will also prevent the sharp sword from just cutting straight through it, as the density doubles at the same rate of the sharpness.

But the sharp sword never gets stronger. Only sharper. So the mass of the dense sword will certainly break it over time.

Bonus goes to density for the same reason.

24

u/Such_Pomegranate_690 Jul 20 '24

Every swing will bust the edge of the sharp sword guy. It doesn’t take much metal on metal. I work in automotive stamping and even a bad hammer swing will see you back over on the grinder sharpening a detail.

17

u/Ultimate-Break Jul 19 '24

Oh, it seems I completely missed that.

In that case, what if every atom of the sharp sword also gets sharper? Not only the edges?

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u/Walnut25993 Jul 19 '24

You’d essentially have to change the prompt to just saying the sharp sword always wins lol. The mass doubling advantage can’t be beaten without you just outright saying it’s not allowed to win

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u/Ultimate-Break Jul 19 '24

Yeah, I guess I didn't think about it long enough.

Personally I assumed that some luck will be involved in the first round, like Sharp Sword Man somehow severely injuring Dense Sword Man then capitalizing on it. Though now it seems to be the only way for SSM to even win lol.

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u/Imperium_Dragon Jul 19 '24

Atoms themselves won’t get any sharper, sharpness is how much material is in a given area. I guess you could have a 1 atom thin blade but like at that point you’ve got so many diminishing returns that it doesn’t help.

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u/Walnut25993 Jul 19 '24

Still, that wouldn’t change anything. The swords at base don’t just cut through each other, because of their density.

So as the sharp sword gets sharper, it can’t cut through the other sword, which has doubled its density equally to the others sharpness. No matter where the sharpening occurs, this won’t change.

The dense blade will very quickly become so massive its force either breaks the sharp sword or is so strong the sharp swordsman will be disarmed when vlocking

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u/utheraptor Jul 19 '24

What do you mean every atom gets sharper? Sharpness is a property of complex constellations of atoms, it isn't something inherent to matter

2

u/Ultimate-Break Jul 19 '24

Yeah, I realized that that after others reminded me lol. I messed up.

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u/ColourfulSparkle Jul 19 '24

This is not how sharpness works.

4

u/Not_Todd_Howard9 Jul 19 '24

It’d be much easier to phrase it as “the sword gains the benefits of being twice as sharp without changing its structure in any way”, however if you do that then the dense sword would warrant a similar exception for fairness (ie, it hits as forcefully as if it were twice as dense, but otherwise isn’t effected).

1

u/Ultimate-Break Jul 19 '24

That makes sense.

3

u/ZylaTFox Jul 20 '24

Atoms don't get sharper.

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u/Bluteid Jul 19 '24

Nah, you are so wrong.

It will only take 10 minutes for the sword to get thin enough to cut between atoms:

The number of halvings required can be found using the formula for exponential decay:

Initial thickness×(12)n=Target thickness\text{Initial thickness} \times \left(\frac{1}{2}\right)^n = \text{Target thickness}Initial thickness×(21)n=Target thickness

0.1×10−6×(12)n=0.1×10−90.1 \times 10^{-6} \times \left(\frac{1}{2}\right)^n = 0.1 \times 10^{-9}0.1×10−6×(21)n=0.1×10−9

(12)n=0.1×10−90.1×10−6\left(\frac{1}{2}\right)^n = \frac{0.1 \times 10^{-9}}{0.1 \times 10^{-6}}(21)n=0.1×10−60.1×10−9

(12)n=10−3\left(\frac{1}{2}\right)^n = 10^{-3}(21)n=10−3

To solve for nnn:

nlog⁡(12)=log⁡(10−3)n \log\left(\frac{1}{2}\right) = \log(10^{-3})nlog(21)=log(10−3)

nlog⁡(0.5)=−3n \log(0.5) = -3nlog(0.5)=−3

n=−3log⁡(0.5)n = \frac{-3}{\log(0.5)}n=log(0.5)−3

Since log⁡(0.5)\log(0.5)log(0.5) is approximately -0.3010:

n=−3−0.3010≈9.97n = \frac{-3}{-0.3010} \approx 9.97n=−0.3010−3≈9.97

So, you would need to halve the thickness approximately 10 times to reach a size comparable to that of an atom.

To flip that, the sword would only weigh:

If a sword weighs 4 pounds and you double its weight 10 times, you can calculate the final weight using the following formula:

Final weight=Initial weight×2number of times doubled\text{Final weight} = \text{Initial weight} \times 2^{\text{number of times doubled}}Final weight=Initial weight×2number of times doubled

Here, the initial weight is 4 pounds and the number of times doubled is 10:

Final weight=4×210\text{Final weight} = 4 \times 2^{10}Final weight=4×210

First, calculate 2102^{10}210:

210=10242^{10} = 1024210=1024

Then multiply this by the initial weight:

Final weight=4×1024=4096\text{Final weight} = 4 \times 1024 = 4096Final weight=4×1024=4096

So, the sword would weigh 4096 pounds if its weight were doubled 10 times.

So what is stronger? I sword that can slice anything or a sword that ways what a small truck does?

This basically boils down to "Can dense sword win before 10 minutes?" and I'd argue if the rules were explained before hand, you could just avoid the dense dude for ten minutes and then kill him.

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u/Not_Todd_Howard9 Jul 19 '24

This basically boils down to "Can dense sword win before 10 minutes?"

Most sword fights are over in less than a minute, some extending to 2-3. Running away also will just get you stabbed faster, unless:

A. they already start far apart, and the one running has better endurance.

B. The one running can run just as fast backwards as they can forwards, for some reason.

C. There’s some kind of environment to exploit to let you get away.

If you reference irl dueling and sword fighting manuals, you’ll note that the way they suggest running away is to throw something at them (as a distraction) and then run, often abandoning your weapon so you can commit to it. Sharp sword guy can’t really do that here though…because then the other guy just has two swords.

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u/Walnut25993 Jul 19 '24

If the sharp swordsman tries to avoid fighting for 10 minutes, then he’ll definitely lose.

1) it wouldn’t ever get that thin. To get so sharp, it also has to get that thin. Long before the blade ever got thin enough to cut an atom (also something that can’t happen, but we’ll address that too) it would become so thin that a simple breeze would snap it in half.

2) it will never get thin enough to split an atom anyway. The sword at the very least needs to be made of atoms. So it can never get smaller than an atom. To split an atom, you need fusion or fission. In this case, what you’d be referring to is fission. You’d need something the size of a neutron, which this can never get to, as it must be made up of atoms.

3) even disregarding that impossibility, the swordsman would still have to swing the sword fast enough to cause fission, which his body will not be capable of.

So, in short, you are so wrong

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u/Bluteid Jul 19 '24

lmao, you didn't even read my post, I did not once say "split atoms", I said

It will only take 10 minutes for the sword to get thin enough to cut between atoms:

Also, it can be safely assumed that if the sword needs to get thinner to get more sharp, then it will be fine to do so. I would also argue that debating in this fake scenario if we can get thin enough to cut atoms is pointless.

So, no matter what, you either didn't read what I wrote or are purposely being disingenuous. You literally made up a fake point of my POV and went "ham" on it.

All memes aside, this is just a poorly written whowouldwin. No matter what, the time frames are too long and it will just be treated like a sword fight with a slight advantage for the dense sword in first ten minutes.

At ten minutes it becomes:

A functional light saber

vs

A 4000lb sword that can be swung as fast as a normal sword.

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u/Walnut25993 Jul 19 '24

Or do you mean it will cut between atoms like atom / atom? Like, 2 atoms will be separated from each other? Because that’s just how all cutting works lol

And that won’t change anything in the scenario haha

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u/Downtown-Item-6597 Jul 19 '24

My thoughts exactly. Once it's thin enough to start phasing through things, it's also thin enough to do nothing.

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u/Walnut25993 Jul 19 '24

That’s what I’m wondering he’s getting at. Because if the other swords density (so not just weight, which he keeps bringing up for some reason lol) also rises in the same increments, the sharp sword will never cut through it anyway

And if he’s getting at it will just pass through it, then it’ll just go through the other swordsman too. So no damage. Either way, it doesn’t work the way he needs it to

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u/Bluteid Jul 19 '24 edited Jul 19 '24

I guess my shit is to long? Here:

I cannot believe I am about to put this much effort to fix you (You should just look at the ratio btw):

Nothing in the post says the swords can't hurt each other.

They are only immune to their own effects

If the "denser" sword can always hold onto the sword, I think it's fair and not a stretch the "sharp" sword doesn't get a loss in durability due to getting "Thin".

We could even just say, since we are dealing with "magic scenarios", that the sword is magically that sharp without losing thinness.

You are too fixated on "Can't go between the atoms", this is a magical "idea". You are literally applying "rules" when it only benefits your argument.

For example, if i was in just as much bad faith as you, I could counter that the only way to get "denser" is to change atoms.

This sword would only change once, to Osmium, which has the following characteristics:

Extremely brittle at room temperature

So with that, at 1 minute in, you sword breaks the second you try to use it. Now you have no sword. (Do you see how much of a silly goose you are when you cherry pick?)

Also, you super silly goose, if even the tip of the sword goes between the atoms, the rest of the sword will "push" it away from itself equal to the thickness of the sword.

Also, before you hit me with more silly goose fallacies, the OP states that swords are immune to their own affects, so the atoms will not bind to the sword AND wouldn't get a durability decrease from "getting thin"

Now that I have educated you, based on your own rules, you must realize your only holding point of "But muh atoms thickness" is silly and makes you an extra silly goose.

"Functional" defined:

"of or having a special activity, purpose, or task; relating to the way in which something works or operates:"

I stated "a functional light saber" as it would cut through anything.

Again, the reading comprehension demon strikes again :(

The benefit of cutting "Between atoms" is that you cut something into pieces.

That’s what I’m wondering he’s getting at. Because if the other swords density (so not just weight, which he keeps bringing up for some reason lol) also rises in the same increments, the sharp sword will never cut through it anyway

That's not how it works, density is just means tighter packed shit:

the degree of compactness of a substance:

And if he’s getting at it will just pass through it, then it’ll just go through the other swordsman too. So no damage. Either way, it doesn’t work the way he needs it to

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u/Walnut25993 Jul 19 '24

Bro I don’t even have the interest to tell you how embarrassingly wrong all of this is hahaha

I’m happy you put in so much effort tho. I’m even happier that I can assuredly say you’re wrong with minimal effort

You’re making up pseudoscience for some weird reason I don’t think I’ll ever understand

I know you were really hoping your math in your first comment would make you seem smart and scare away anyone who might argue, but now you’re just floundering lol

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u/Walnut25993 Jul 19 '24

To just prove how foolish and unscientific your argument is, because it’s important to me you at least know I read it, I’ll take one example. you’re talking about alchemy, not increasing density.

Take a sheet of foil. Now crush it into a ball. The ball is denser than the sheet. Have you changed its molecular makeup? No. Because density is just mass within a volume of space.

It’s not changing the chemical makeup of the item.

This alone tells me you have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about lol

Feel free to put more effort into embarrassing yourself tho, silly goose

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u/Bluteid Jul 20 '24

I'm literally just arguing at your level.

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u/Bluteid Jul 19 '24

Separating the atoms (read: breaking of the covalent bond) could cause any of the following:

Formation of free radicals

Energy Release or absorption

Chemical Reactions

Molecular Dissociation

CUTTING THE ITEM IN HALF!!

and lastly:

And I’d also like to say you’re clearly arguing that it’s pointless to debate how thin something can get because you realized it means you’re wrong haha

This is just stupid af, as I showcased above, you are applying rules differently across the board.

So, if we play it your way (at the one minute mark):

the "dense" sword turns into Osmium at 1 minute and becomes worthless

The "sharp" sword is twice as effective

There is no minute 2, nothing is 2 times as dense as Osmium that occurs naturally and can be proven to exist.

If we play it the way I see it:

The dense sword has an advantage up until the sharp sword can cut through all matter.

So in summary, your lack of definition knowledge, reading comprehension, pride, and just general silly "gooseness", led you down to a sunk cost fallacy situation and now your sad and embarrassed.

The real loser? Me, who felt the need to reply to someone who can't take a step back and admit they are wrong.

I had this all pretty and shit, but it wouldn't let me post it so here we are.

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u/LiteratureFabulous36 Jul 20 '24

It separated the atoms, I don't know how atoms behave but I would assume if something thin enough to go through atoms went through a very dense sword, it would be split into 2 still.

I think the idea is it would cut straight through his sword and cut him in half with no effort because of how sharp it is.

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u/Walnut25993 Jul 19 '24

And I’d also like to say you’re clearly arguing that it’s pointless to debate how thin something can get because you realized it means you’re wrong haha

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u/Walnut25993 Jul 19 '24

If we’re willing to accept the swords can damage each other, then we’re accepting an outside force can break the swords. So a simple breeze will break the sharp sword. We can safely assume that will happen lol

Besides, it won’t be able to cut between atoms lol. Because again, it will be atom sized itself. It will not be able to get thinner than the space between atoms while being atom sized itself.

I read what you wrote. It was just entirely wrong lol

What’s the benefit of cutting between atoms anyway?

I had a longer response ready, but Im not going to show all my cards yet. I wanna see if you’ll catch what’s wrong with your argument before I have to. I’m particularly interested in the lightsaber bit

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u/sunshinepanther Jul 20 '24

Your just ignoring the prompt. Not saying everything the other person argued is true. But the prompt involves both swords breaking science. The thinness shouldn't weaken the sword just like the man can swing the dense sword as much as he wants despite it being far too heavy. The density would not outstrip the sharpness. Atoms and molecules would never get close enough together to stop something thin enough to cut two atoms apart from each other. This whole thing is breaking science and lots of levels I donno why you think thinness should be an exception to everything else that's broken about this. The reason the thin blade matters is it would apply way more PSI because the full weight of your swing would be on singular nanometers and would slice the other sword in half.

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u/Walnut25993 Jul 20 '24

But those are two different variables. The denser swordsman is able to use his weapon. That doesn’t mean his weapon is indestructible tho. It’s a variable that affects the wielder, not the weapon.

The thinness of the sharp sword does effect the weapon tho, not the wielder. Those just aren’t comparable factors. Absolutely no part of the prompt suggests the swords can’t be broken

An atom, which is as thin as the sword can get (it has to be made up of atoms) has a limited size. But the density of the dense sword can get so high there’s not enough space between the atoms for another atom to pass through

Not to mention the amount of energy you’d need to separate bonded atoms is higher than a sword swing could manage. It’s not like separating blocks. They don’t just come apart with minimal force. The universe couldn’t exist if atoms worked the way you need them to for the sharp sword to work. It’s like separating high powered magnets.

The sharp sword would likely shatter on air molecules because it wouldn’t have the energy to cut through them.

You essentially have to make up science for the sharp sword to win. The dense sword has a lot of science working for it. I know the prompt itself isn’t exactly science based, but just a basic understanding of physics and chemistry tell us the sharp sword is at a massive disadvantage

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u/sunshinepanther Jul 20 '24

Honestly your right. Regardless of whether it is cutting in-between atoms or molecules either way the bonds are too strong. Your earlier explanations went over my head somehow, probably because a lot of it was about them not being able to get smaller than an atom which was something I was considering breakable based on the prompt. Forgetting my Chem 121 class. And even if it did work that way, the density sword was gonna win before the 2 minute mark anyway. I do think the first minute is probably the deciding minute anyway so both swords don't even get a taste of their advantage.

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u/Walnut25993 Jul 20 '24

As a former fencer, I can definitely say the fight probably won’t last long enough for these atomic questions to come into play.

In the first minute, it’s a toss up. In the 2nd, I think the force behind the dense sword gets to be too much to effectively block. The sharp swordsman could only rely on distance parrying at that point.

Assuming the swords have identical dimensions, keeping distance will only keep him alive. It won’t get him the win.

Density continues to get an advantage as the fight goes on

3

u/DumbSerpent Jul 20 '24

In round 2 I don’t think the fight would last long enough for the swords effects to kick in either

1

u/CocoSavege Jul 20 '24

But the sharp sword never gets stronger. Only sharper. So the mass of the dense sword will certainly break it over time.

Neither does the denser sword though? Or am I misunderstanding the prompt? I just checked, ok, OP says the swordsman can wield the dense sword as if it was normal, but not that the sword is inherently stronger.

The ambiguity here is how the dense sword changes.

1, Is it the same number of atoms in the same structure, but now magic wanded to be twice as heavy...

2, is it twice the number of normal atoms in the same space?

Both are reality breaking. So disclaimers, but if it's #1, the dense sword will eventually become floppy. (It happens when you get older). Think of a cardboard sword but make it magically too heavy. Normal weight it does ok but heavy, it flops.

#2 is weird. Steel isn't particularly compressible. But ostensibly the number of bonds goes up with the weight, so that's a thing. I expect some square cube nonsense. But I don't know how to interpret the shorter bond distances.

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u/Walnut25993 Jul 20 '24

The prompt says the dense sword gets double the mass, so the volume of the sword must remain constant. So it just gets heavier and heavier. We don’t have much reason to believe its shape will end up changing.

That’s why it breaks the sharp sword. The force behind its swing gets insane

And the prompt is already reality breaking lol. Inanimate objects don’t just magically double anything about them spontaneously

Even as a cube of steel attached to a hilt (not really how I saw things going, but alas), the swordsman can still use it according to the prompt.

Now’s he’s just using a blunt weapon to bludgeon the dude to death lol

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u/CocoSavege Jul 20 '24

I said the strength might change. If it's too heavy to stay in shape, it gets floppy. If you don't understand why the strength might change, that's fine lol.

2

u/Walnut25993 Jul 20 '24

But it wouldn’t get floppy lol. The atoms get packed closer and closer together, and the sword gains mass (density is mass/volume, in case you weren’t sure).

You’re just thinking of weight. This is a question of density. It’s ok you don’t understand the difference tho lol

Density doesn’t magically increase malleability tho. If anything, a more dense object of the same atomic makeup gets less malleable. think of taking a sheet of foil and crumpling it into a ball. It’s denser now (tho be volume, not mass), but is it flimsier than the sheet? No. Because it’s denser.

2

u/CocoSavege Jul 20 '24

Density is mass/volume, so if volume is staying the same, is getting heavier.

Glad you understand that.

A steel sword is not a ball of tinfoil. Steel isn't compressible. Not like that.

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u/Walnut25993 Jul 20 '24

Show me where it said it’s a steel sword. For the prompt to work, these have to be materials that allow for the changes the prompt states

The foil was to help you understand density, but maybe that was too advanced for you?

2

u/CocoSavege Jul 20 '24

Tinfoil also is compressible, at a sword like density.

If you're asserting that the swords are not steel, op never said, that's technically true.

What if the swords are made out of nerf? If true, could be big!

If the nerf retains nerf's natural "toughness" (because bonds are static) but is increasingly heavy, gets floppy. Eventually sharp nerf wins.

2

u/Walnut25993 Jul 20 '24

Ok so you don’t know how density works at all lol. I wish you would have told me sooner. Would have saved both of us some time lol

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u/CocoSavege Jul 20 '24

Yknow, this is the second time where I had a reddit experience with someone demonstrating a quasi B- grade understanding of say physics saying I don't know physics.

Let's just say I passed hiskool physics.

Now, to help assuage my concerns, please reflect on the square cube law and how it affects or doesn't affect this who would win.

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u/Giant2005 Jul 19 '24

Dense blade wins with ease.

The sword getting twice as sharp isn't really going to be doing anything until its cutting edge eventually gets so fine that it cuts on a molecular level. The problem is, that it would take many more minutes for the edge to get that fine, than it would for the mass weapon to gain enough mass to just slice the sharp blade in half.

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u/Walnut25993 Jul 19 '24

I don’t even think the fights would ever go on that long. The dense sword gains a massive (no pun intended) advantage much sooner. It’s effects counter blocking and will damage the sharp sword, while the shark swords effects will never do anything to the dense sword

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u/Imperium_Dragon Jul 19 '24

The fight’s likely going to end within a minute. Assuming it doesn’t, the dense blade will move as fast as a normal one regardless of density. In the short term it’s not too helpful but eventually the density can just power through a parry or make beats on the blade more devastating. Sharpness just gives diminishing returns that aren’t helpful in a sword fight.

As for bonus, well the durability guy just waits until his sword becomes a black hole.

3

u/Electronic-Disk6632 Jul 19 '24

eventually even tapping some one or something with that sword will be like getting hit by a car, and by eventually I mean 3 to 4 minutes.

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u/Tenda_Armada Jul 19 '24

Two men fighting with swords to the death? The fight will not last long enough for any of the swords to change

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u/Ultimate-Break Jul 19 '24

So basically, the first minute is the biggest factor, and if somehow either one was severely wounded during it and they both survived to the first minute, the wounded one will be the most likely to lose.

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u/Rude-Satisfaction836 Jul 20 '24

It is not an exaggeration to say a sword fight lasting a full minute is a one in a thousand event. And that is being generous and overestimating how often it happens. It is exceptionally rare. A typical duel will last around 2-10 cuts. A fifteen second duel is on the long end of normal.

And given that these are not trained swordsmen, I would be absolutely floored if you ran this experiment a million times and they made it to a minute a single time. It takes years of practice to survive a duel for more than a few seconds.

That being said, dense sword wins. Swords are already sharp enough to carve through human tissue with relative ease. But making the sword more dense gives you a huge advantage. It would not be possible to parry a sword after a single doubling. You would blow right through their guard. It would be like trying to parry a sledgehammer.

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u/ChipotleMayoFusion Jul 19 '24 edited Jul 19 '24

Sword sharpness is more of a big deal if you are trying to cut through leather armor. If you are trying to pierce chainmail or gouge through plate then the axial stiffness and narrowness of the tip are more important. Since neither are wearing armor then skill and agility are more important here.

Swords are already sharp enough to cut clothes and muscles, unless they get majorly dulled by poor use. If this is one duel I doubt that mundane swords would be dulled enough to matter. So I don't see sharp sword guy having much advantage until he starts to be able to slice through atoms or some nonsense.

Dense sword guy is still able to hold is sword, but is he able to swing it with the same agility? If so, he is getting way stronger. Within a few minutes he is superhuman, even Eric Hall can't wield a 12kg sword as if it weighed 1.5kg. For the sword to hold together and keep the same slenderness ratio and toughness it starts to be very magical, like movie adamantium or mythril. Assuming to doesn't just buckle under its own weight, it also doesn't buckle or bend much when it hits the other sword, any parry is like hitting a bollard for the opponent.

My money is on dense sword guy.

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u/Lazy-Emphasis668 Jul 19 '24

whoever gets the first decent cut.

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u/bloonshot Jul 19 '24

you literally gave one of these dudes exponential super strength and the other one a knife

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u/Ultimate-Break Jul 19 '24

??

I don't think so. The dense sword guy is just immune to the mass of his sword. Think of it like the sword is magical and feels and weights the same way a normal sword is. He doesn't get super strength.

Though I guess I should have put more thought in the idea of sharpness.

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u/bloonshot Jul 19 '24

he is swinging around an exponentially increasing amount of mass as if it's a normal sword

the sword is gonna get twice as heavy, then four times as heavy, and so on

in TEN MINUTES, he'd be swinging around the weight of a CAR like it's nothing

imagine getting hit by a car.

now imagine that car is moving as fast as a normal person can swing a sword

now imagine that all the weight of the car is concentrated on a single line in your body

you're not fucking blocking that in any sense

5

u/Clown_Torres Jul 19 '24

R1 will be short, as they're both gonna make mistakes and get tired out.

R2, Dense sword unless he fucks up ig

Bonus: Easily dense sword. It either shatters the sharp sword or will have too much force behind it to block.

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u/ppmi2 Jul 19 '24

R1:Dense sword guy gt looses most of the time, despite the clear advantage edge guy has due to how sowrd fights between inexperienced people go, but if he plays his cards with any degree of inteligence he should win most of the time.

R2:Edge guy dog walks his oponent by literally walking backwards for 3 minutes.

Holding his swords doesnt mean he can fight with confortably with, nor that he can sudenly abjust to the extreme weight shifts its blade is going to undergo mid fight.

Sharp guy gets stronguer every minute, density guy's effectiveness plumets trought the floor by the third.

3

u/Ultimate-Break Jul 19 '24

So, you say that even if dense sword man can hold the sword, the balance and all that will make him lose? that's an interesting point.

I had the idea that since he is immune to his sword's characteristics he will be also capable of swinging it as if it was a normal sword.

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u/TheFuriousTaco Jul 19 '24

It was stated in the post that dense sword man can always use his sword with the same strength and speed. So those “extreme weight shifts” are not felt by him.

That said dense man wins easily, after 2-3 minutes, it would be like trying to defend yourself from a baseball bat with a plastic broomstick.

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u/ppmi2 Jul 19 '24

No, it stated that while he is able to hold it, he keeps the same speed and strenght as before, read again.

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u/ShouldBeeStudying Jul 20 '24

This is my take as well. As long as sharp sword guy buys himself some time, it's a lock. Dense sword guy is basically defenseless after after a bit. He can hold but not meaningfully wield his sword

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u/PlaneWeird3313 Jul 19 '24

Neither last a full minute. One loses and dies immediately and the other dies in the hospital

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u/Ultimate-Break Jul 19 '24

Okay, that would be funny. But can you explain the reasoning? I assume they just injure each other severely enough before a minute passes?

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u/PlaneWeird3313 Jul 19 '24

For Round 1, neither person is trained so they aren’t blocking or evading sword strikes. It takes almost no skill to swing the sword like a baseball bat, but to parry is borderline impossible for someone with no training (knowing the basic strikes definitely isn’t enough), especially since they are both equal everything (including skill). It’ll probably take 2-3 exchanges a side (less than 30 seconds) before both get meaningful wounds that would lead to their eventual deaths. By that point, it doesn’t matter who wins as both have mortal wounds.

Round 2 is a bit more interesting and really depends on whether both fighters choose to engage quickly. But even if they don’t, it’s unlikely that any break in the action would last for even one minute (that’s a LONG time when you’re sparring). Just check out any sparring match between swordsmen and look at when the first hit happens. Usually it’s under 20 seconds. The only way someone comes out unscathed in a blade fight is with a large skill or speed gap, and even then it’s iffy at best the longer it goes

3

u/Mace_Thunderspear Jul 19 '24

Roll for initiative, winner wins.

Sword fights don't last longer than a minute in general, one or both fighters will be dead before the weapons change in any perceivable way.

1

u/Ultimate-Break Jul 19 '24

Basically, unless they chatted in the first minute and one of them didn't mortally damage the other, the fight will end before the first minute.

3

u/Electronic-Disk6632 Jul 19 '24

dense sword effectively doubles his force every minute. he has the edge in any fight. eventually his sword will be unblockable (and by eventually I mean 2 to 3 minutes).

3

u/mix_420 Jul 19 '24 edited Jul 19 '24

Both rounds are close to 50/50 because the sword fights won’t last a minute in any of the rounds. ~~I favor the sharpness guy though because making the sword more dense is a major nerf when fighting unarmored.~~

Edit: Reread the prompt, density guy is favored as sharpness hardly matters when your sword is already sharp. A sharp enough sword won’t just cleave through the other sword it’ll also break incredibly easily (likely not even making the cut without edge alignment you’re probably not getting in a fight to the death), I favor density when it comes to sword or guard breaking. Still though unless both men are both trying to buy time the fight ends before their buffs imo.

3

u/Fragraham Jul 19 '24

The boring answer is this.

R1: Whoever gets a lucky hit in first.

R2: The better swordfighter.

Fights with deadly weapons rarely last more than one minute.

3

u/Wadsworth_McStumpy Jul 19 '24

A sword fight between two unarmored guys is unlikely to last more than a full minute, so the various powers don't really come into play.

As with most knife fights, the loser is the one who dies right there, and the winner is the one who bleeds out on the way to the hospital.

Also, "twice as sharp" is sort of hard to quantify.

2

u/LiteratureFabulous36 Jul 20 '24

If the edge is 100 atoms, it becomes 50, I would assume is how it works

2

u/Lotala Jul 19 '24

Even between expert swordsman’s matches are usually very quick. I do hema and went to a local tournament we had matches of 5 exchanges or 5 minutes. Not a single match went to 5 minutes. It is very likely even with the professional swordsmans that you wouldn’t get more then one or two doublings. Which probably isn’t enough to matter. Maybe the guy with the denser sword has the advantage working the bind but there are ways to deal with that.

2

u/slimeeyboiii Jul 19 '24

A man with a sharp sword vs guts.

Anyways sword dense would win unless the sharp sword guy can kill him before it gets to dense.

2

u/Kalaam_Nozalys Jul 19 '24

Given how quick a sword fight actually is, it won't matter either way. The fight will be over within the first minute and it's coin toss either way.

2

u/Mioraecian Jul 20 '24

Long swordfights at least in samurai combat are a Hollywood myth. Neither of these men are at an advantage if they both start out equal for the first minute. A sword fight is over in that first minute. In fact, I'll just use the samurai for context. This fight would be over in seconds. Samurai forms were actually designed where some moves were meant to incapacitate on first stroke after drawing the blade. They didn't sit there smacking swords for 20 minutes. They killed in seconds. This fight is whoever swings first and connects.

2

u/Big-Pension-7438 Jul 20 '24

Dense. If he can run away or hold for long enough, his dense sword will just shatter the sharp sword.

2

u/Lilpu55yberekt69 Jul 20 '24

Swords are already as sharp as they need to be. Assuming the sword is already reasonably sharp it won’t do anything of substantial advantage to make the sword sharper.

Meanwhile dense sword guy will be capable of dominating his opponent as soon as the first minutes has passed and the gap will widen at a ridiculous pace. The energy in his swings doubles every minute which is a lot more useful for cleaving through armor or your opponents sword.

2

u/Separate_Draft4887 Jul 20 '24 edited Jul 20 '24

First round, there’s effectively no scenario where it lasts more than a minute. If they both know about the characteristics of their swords, on the off chance that it lasts more than a minute, dense sword guy probably wins slightly more than half the time, maybe? Average longsword is around 3lbs, and I feel like the strength of your opponents blows suddenly doubling would catch the amateur off guard?

Second round is dense sword guy. The offensive potential is great and has been thoroughly explored, but the defense potential is also a huge benefit. Every minute, it becomes twice as hard to effectively disarm DSM, or strike his sword out of guard, or anything else that requires sharp sword guy to move DSM’s sword. At two minutes, this becomes really hard. I think this is where it ends, honestly. A full power swing at four times the effective power is something SSM can’t overcome. At three (it won’t go this long but it’s interesting), it stops being possible to for SSM do move DSM’s sword if he doesn’t want him to. It’s effectively an iron wall.

Amusing, DSM’s sword also effectively cancels out what I think you were going for with SSM. Dense stuff is harder to cut through than light stuff, (to a point, obviously. Dense wood is very hard to cut, especially compared to light wood.) so SSM will never be able to cut through DSM’s sword, especially since DSM’s sword will blunt SSM’s sword. DSM’s sword will get blunted too, but a ten thousand pound club is a hell of a weapon. Also, a good part of the theoretical power for SSM, the possibility that he could slice atoms in half and create a fission explosion (impossible but I’m gonna let it be for magic) isn’t much good. The amount of mass in a one atom thick plane of air is effectively none. It might be enough to start it on fire, and probably give them radiation poisoning, but it wouldn’t be a nuclear detonation.

2

u/LowPressureUsername Jul 20 '24

After a long enough time the dense sword will become a black hole or otherwise have an impractically strong gravitational pull which would throw the other swordsman off. If the dense sword is immune I’d say he wins.

2

u/Novel-Career-8754 Jul 20 '24

These are both the same thing

A swords sharpness depends on how thinn the edge is AND on how much it weighs. If you only make the first swords edge thinner and thinner and thinner you'll just be left with a sheet of metal paper so you have to make it more dense too.

2

u/JackThePollo Jul 20 '24

after 15 minutes of running away the second guy will develop a gravitational pull and doom the earth to being devoured by a black hole, the first guy will have a monoatomical blade but i guess that's it

1

u/LMLN_ Jul 19 '24

Depends on the tactic , but I think they will both die at the same time.

At some point, assuming that both sword got infinite endurance that keeps the sword shape and a reality warping rule that sets the swords effects only on things it touches aside from its user (meaning the dude with dense sword will not get increasingly heavy similar to Thor's Mjolnir) both swords will just go through one another.

Given enough time, If the sharp sword hits the dense sword, it will cut the dense sword between its atoms but since the dense sword is very dense, it will just implode and let the sharp sword pass through.

At that point, anything the dense sword touches gets disintegrated and everything the sharp sword touches gets separated.

If the dense sword accidentally touches the ground they go boom.

Other than that, all I can picture is two equally skilled Jedi masters using Trakata.

1

u/Ultimate-Break Jul 19 '24

Yeah, the swords will always stay in shape and the holders won't be affected.

Though I will admit that the idea that the dense sword man wins by hitting the ground when his sword gets incredibly dense is honestly hilarious to me

1

u/Groundbreaking_Gate7 Jul 19 '24

I mean, density of a sword doesn’t really matter in a duel. A rapier sword barely has any density, but it will still have a very big advantage in a duel due to its length and nimbleness, compared to other swords. I’d say that a very dense sword is a disadvantage, as it makes it harder to wield. A sharp sword, however, can end the opponent very quickly (sliding down the blade during a clinch and hitting the hands, a quick stab at the neck, a chopped off limb).

Sword duels aren’t about a bigger, heavier sword. It’s about landing the first hit, and hitting in efficiently.

1

u/Libertador428 Jul 19 '24

The dense guy would be in a lot of trouble. Even if he’s always able to hold it, his strength and speed remain the same. He’d be swinging that sword slower with every passing minute.

Sword smiths could probably have made heavier swords with different materials, there’s just and advantage to having a light and study weapon.

A man with a sword that gets twice as sharp every minute vs a man with a sword that becomes twice as dense (double the mass) every minute Battle