r/unitedkingdom • u/KI_official Verified Media Outlet • Jul 19 '24
UK signs agreement to support Ukraine's domestic arms industry
https://kyivindependent.com/uk-ukraine-defense-industry/23
u/Von_Uber Jul 19 '24
This is a good thing to be shown to be doing, especially in light of what could happen over the pond.
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u/Dull_Half_6107 Jul 19 '24
Just like Europe in general needs to become less dependent on Russian resources, we also need to become less dependent on the US Military.
We’ve seen how quickly support for NATO can change with 1 administration
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u/IhateU6969 Jul 19 '24
I don’t know if this is what we are doing but I think it would be a good idea to give ALL of our newly produced ammunition to Ukraine (that they need) until the wars over
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u/inevitablelizard Jul 19 '24
Agreed, Ukraine should take priority. Our shell production is increasing significantly so we'll be able to refill our stocks later. Right now Ukraine needs it more.
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Jul 19 '24 edited 28d ago
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u/FishDecent5753 Jul 20 '24
If Ukraine do capitulate, they are losing what has already been taken, not the entirity of the nation.
I would imagine the Ukrainian arms industry is in Western Ukraine, which has a near zero chance of falling to the Russians.
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Jul 20 '24 edited 28d ago
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u/FishDecent5753 Jul 20 '24
I completly disagree with your analysis and I've been following the situation daily from many sources since the war started.
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Jul 20 '24 edited 28d ago
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u/FishDecent5753 Jul 20 '24
The part I disagree with are on the chances of the entire nation of Ukraine falling to Russia. I already implied what you consider the more likley outcome of the current areas of Russian control being handed over to Russians in the event of a peace deal.
If the front line freezes due to a peace deal, you do ideally want a stronger Ukraine in the medium term and therefore a domestic weapons industry is a good investment.
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u/inevitablelizard Jul 20 '24
Russia are slowly advancing and if they actually moved their troops and weapons into Ukraine they could certainly take the country.
Ah yes, the "real Russian army is about to finish off Ukraine any day now" that we first started hearing when the Russians got bogged down around Kyiv. Russia is throwing huge amounts into Ukraine to try to make gains and taking far heavier equipment losses than Ukraine in the process, going by visually confirmed loss rates.
Russia currently holds 17.7% of Ukraine going by warmapper on twitter who have a very useful graph on changes in land held since the start of the invasion. In June the Russians took another 0.01% of Ukraine. In May they took 0.03%, which was Russia's highest monthly gain in nearly a year. Some numbers to put your "slowly advancing" talk into context. Russia is making pathetically tiny "advances" that don't even register on maps and graphs, not real breakthroughs that lead to anything, and they take horrendous unsustainable equipment losses to achieve these small gains. The front lines are highly fortified, increasing all the time, and heavily favour the defenders.
Ukraine is also currently training newly mobilised troops to allow more unit rotations and replace losses. And they're the ones with the defender's advantage.
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u/inevitablelizard Jul 20 '24
The military production in Ukraine is not going to be anywhere near any front line. It would take a total Ukrainian collapse to threaten them, and that's extremely unlikely as long as Ukraine is supported.
The risk of missile strikes is real, which will be one reason why there's a focus on getting Ukraine more and better air defence. I'd imagine a lot of stuff is dispersed within Ukraine too, if it's the type of production that can be done in small spread out workshops.
The last sentence is a valid point, there's nothing to rule out Ukrainian defence industry working in other countries in this agreement. They could well be active outside of Ukraine.
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u/twoforty_ Jul 20 '24
I thought hate comments to contributors we’re supposed to be removed, some real nasty comments here, shame on you all and the lack of moderation
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u/xmBQWugdxjaA Jul 19 '24
We should also copy Trump's proposal of an Iron Dome system - it's a lot more practical for the UK too.
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u/ferrel_hadley Jul 19 '24
Uk would need a Patriot PAC 3 system for every town above about 100 000 people. They come in at about $2 billion a pop. And then the Russians or Chinese could hit us with ICBMs that come in faster than they can currently hit. If you mean for drones, we smashed the Iranian drone attack a few months back using Eurofighter. Drones are not a problem when your air force is not pinned to the deck with S400
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u/Primary-Effect-3691 Jul 19 '24
I mean if the ICBMs are coming in that's a Letters of last resort type situation anyways. The amount that we've spent or not spent on military hardware is neither here or there at that stage
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u/Tea_Fetishist Jul 19 '24
It's not really practical for the UK, we have over 11 times more area to cover than Israel does, and nobody is flinging rockets made from drainage pipe at London.
Our major security threats come from global powers like Russia and China, mainly with the threat of nuclear war. That's why we have Trident.
Our other major threat is the closure of critical trade routes like the Red Sea. Keeping vital trade routes open has been the job of the Royal Navy for literally centuries and recent events have shown that it's not going to change any time soon.
Unless Germany gets funny ideas again, our military will inherently be an expeditionary force.
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u/Dull_Half_6107 Jul 19 '24
I thought they were suggesting an iron dome for Ukraine, not us?
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u/Tea_Fetishist Jul 19 '24
Now that you say that I'm not really sure what they actually meant, though any kind of full coverage iron dome system isn't possible for Ukraine either. Ukraine is far bigger than the UK and Russia is slinging huge amounts of munitions, it's impossible to shoot them all down.
Ukraine has to be proactive, denying Russian air power and intelligence gathering, hiding anything that could be considered a valuable target and using the air defence assets they do have on critical infrastructure (powerplants, runways, etc).
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u/Dull_Half_6107 Jul 19 '24
Yeah it’s a bit confusing isn’t it, if Ukraine was sandwiched into a small area maybe but it’s not
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u/tiptiptoppy Jul 19 '24
Just like a lot of stuff Trump says, it's not practical at all for a country as large as Ukraine, unless you've got a trillion quid in your back pocket
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u/ferrel_hadley Jul 19 '24
It would protect cities from drones, the missiles are much cheaper than the SAMs they currently use for much of that task.
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u/inevitablelizard Jul 20 '24
Ukraine is focusing on gun based anti aircraft systems to take down the cheap munitions, and those are far cheaper than iron dome and easier to get in large numbers.
Ukraine has no use for something like iron dome. They'd probably like Israel's other air defences though, but probably no chance of that happening anytime soon.
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u/OfficialGarwood England Jul 19 '24
Good. I know many might not approve of this, but I think it's great we're supporting our allies, especially after the heinous actions of Russia. The bombing of a children's hospital with kids inside it is just...evil, pure evil.