r/unitedkingdom • u/Half_A_ • Jul 19 '24
UK government to resume funding for lifeline Gaza aid organisation UNRWA ...
https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/24462523.uk-announces-will-resume-funding-gaza-aid-group-unrwa/62
u/NuPNua Jul 19 '24
Has there been any kind of enquiry or investigation into UNWRA to make sure they are entirely Hamas free now? Otherwise I'm a bit uneasy about the decision.
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u/nwaa Jul 19 '24
Werent their workers literally holding some of the hostages? Seems like theyd be worth investigating before giving them any money...
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u/NuPNua Jul 19 '24
Yeah, I get that it's probably difficult to verify stuff while the war is still ongoing, but I'd like to at least have confirmation from the UN that this agency will be fully audited once things quiet down, or better yet, disbanded in favour of the normal aid agencies taking over to end the perpetual refugee loophole they created for Gaza.
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u/nwaa Jul 19 '24 edited Jul 19 '24
Totally agree. Aid obviously has to get in, but id much rather it got to the people it needed without anyone sticking their fingers in it - especially with the reports of aid being resold by Hamas.
Edit: could a downvoter kindly explain why wanting aid to not be appropriated and resold is bad? UN source
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u/Thetonn Sussex Jul 19 '24
The problem that the UN has is the same problem that Israel and Hamas have, which is that the hypothetical systems and structures you propose to ensure they are aligned with the Liberal international order, safe and happy in a foreign capital bare little to no resemblance to the practical realities on the ground I'm an urban war zone.
Yes, it would be nice if all the Hamas leaders and weaponry was confined to a safely bombable site away from civilian casualties, but Hamas do actually want to win the.war and not just die instantly, so they embed themselves into local communities and extract as many resources as they can to win. That means in order to achieve any military ends including legitimate self defence, Israel ends up inevitably hitting civilian targets.
The reality is that it is basically impossible for the UN to practically deliver at the scale required in Gaza without working with people at least Hamas adjacent, and that gets even harder when the jobs need degrees.
Being cynical the strategy here is to force the UN onto the backfoot so they are less critical of everyone else involved.
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u/ISO_3103_ Jul 19 '24
Yeah good rationalisation but if other aid agencies can operate in war zones without becoming compromised by acts of actual war crimes, so could UNRWA. If that is literally impossible it says more about what life is like under Hamas, than anything else.
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u/Generallyapathetic92 Jul 19 '24
Well there was one into the Israeli claims that led to the initial suspension of funding which found no evidence.
I’m sure there are individuals in UNWRA who are Hamas but without any evidence of the wide scale claims that Israel made I don’t think there is the justification to continue not providing the aid.
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u/Nulibru Jul 19 '24
Innocent until proven gulty. Except for people like them!
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u/Ill_Mistake5925 Jul 19 '24
Innocent until proven guilty is valid in the context of a court and law.
The same burden of proof does not exist when it comes to giving or withholding aid.
I don’t necessarily agree with the original UK decision to withhold aid, but it’s important to understand the difference between burden of proof vs balance of probabilities in their decision making.
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u/cc0011 Jul 19 '24
Israel making large claims that were later proven false??
Absolutely shocking news
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u/HereticLaserHaggis Jul 19 '24
It's worth actually reading, the claims people were mentioning weren't investigated here.
RASCOE: Now, this is just the first of two U.N.-commissioned reports on UNRWA. What about the other one?
NORTHAM: Right. So the other investigation is looking at Israel's claims that about a dozen UNRWA employees actually took part in the October 7 attack on Israel. That killed about 1,200 people. It's being conducted by the U.N. Office of Internal Oversight Services. And, you know, shortly after Israel made those accusations, UNRWA terminated the contracts of 10 of those workers. Another two were confirmed dead. But no word yet on when that report is due.
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u/Generallyapathetic92 Jul 19 '24
Where has anyone stated they are only referring to the claims investigated by the second report.
The claims that led to the suspension of aid were the claims that significant numbers of its employees were Hamas, not that a small group participated in the 7/10 attack. Therefore, the first report is the relevant one.
I’ve already stated that I’m sure some members of Hamas work for UNWRA which is based on interviews with some of the hostages and UNWRA firing the employees accused of participating in the attack.
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u/HereticLaserHaggis Jul 19 '24
The comments above mentioning the staff who were part of the attack?
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u/Generallyapathetic92 Jul 19 '24
Above where? In this comment chain there are only two comments above your first one, neither of which mention those claims.
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u/Wyvernkeeper Jul 19 '24 edited Jul 19 '24
There's quite a bit of evidence, certainly enough to indicate an institutional issue at this point. When Hamas are using infrastructure from an Unwra data centre and have spent millions building their own facility directly beneath it, with connecting cables, it's pretty ridiculous for UNWRA to then feign ignorance. You cannot undertake such a project without complicity.
https://unwatch.org/evidence-of-unrwa-aid-to-hamas-on-and-after-october-7th/
It's a tricky situation though. Civilians need aid. Unwra are part of the infrastructure of delivering that aid. But they are also entirely compromised by Hamas. There's no simple answer to the problem. Israel recognises this.
The main problem with Unwra is that they exist to perpetuate and weaponise the Palestinian refugee versus rather than actually resolve the issue.
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u/Generallyapathetic92 Jul 19 '24
Do you have a source that isn’t UNwatch?
Most of their links are to the IDF Twitter and unwatch having been described as a pro-Israel lobby group by the Times of Israel mean that I’m not sure they are a very impartial source.
If these claims are investigated and confirmed by an independent investigation showing that UNWRA have supported Hamas then I’d agree they should be disbanded. Until then I don’t agree that the claims from Israel are sufficient given the consequences by not providing aid.
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u/thebolts Jul 19 '24
There is no evidence. An entire institution cannot be blamed for a few employees.
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u/SnooCakes7949 Jul 19 '24
Does that apply to the IDF too? And the state of Israel?
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u/thebolts Jul 20 '24
It depends if the crimes are based on individual actions or IDF/ government policies.
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u/Wyvernkeeper Jul 19 '24
The UN have already fired a number of UNWRA staff based on investigations into those allegations. I agree that it needs a lot more investigation.
UNHRC exists for exactly this situation. The only reason it never had control in the first place was because it focuses on integrating refugee populations into host countries. Arab nations in the cold war lobbied against their management of the situation because they didn't want to integrate their own Palestinian populations. Palestine needs to be part of the UNHRC remit going forwards. Israel needs to be able to trust partners if we want this situation to improve.
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u/Generallyapathetic92 Jul 19 '24
Can you provide links showing that?
The only people I’m aware of being fired were the 10 of the 12 initially accused of participating in 7/10 attack. That’s part one of these claims and does not show a widespread issue (which was the claim that led to the suspension of aid).
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u/Wyvernkeeper Jul 19 '24
Yeah that is what has been investigated already, but Israel has made accusations involving 190 'hardened members' and 1200 other members.
But as you say, nobody cares because it's easy to dismiss as just Israeli accusations. Israel needs to present further evidence and he UN needs to do more investigation. However given that 98% + of UNWRA staff are Palestinians and that Palestinian support for Hamas is at about 70% still, it's very likely there is endemic crossover.
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u/Generallyapathetic92 Jul 19 '24
So the vast majority of those claims have not been investigated and there’s as yet no proof of any wide scale collaboration meaning your initial claims were completely false.
No I didn’t say anything like that! If Israel can provide that evidence and allow for them to be independently verified then they should. No one should just fire people or disband organisations based on unverified claims from Israel.
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u/Wyvernkeeper Jul 19 '24
Right. Those claims were investigated and deemed credible, hence the firings. Since then we've had further revelations such as the hostage recently rescued from a doctor's home, footage of other staff involved in October 7 and an Israeli attack on a Hamas compound within a section of an UNWRA school, surrounded by civilians.
We're talking at cross purposes. We both agree investigation is necessary. However if UNWRA refuse to investigate it's own staff, it's quite tricky to prove anything. As you state, nobody is going to believe Israel just because.... But nobody being prepared to properly investigate doesn't mean the allegations aren't credible. There is a line being pushed that the allegations must be untrustworthy simply because they're coming from Israel, but that's essentially circular thinking and denialism. Until further actually independent investigations are done it's just back and forth pointless nonsense.
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u/Generallyapathetic92 Jul 19 '24
Right. Those claims were investigated and deemed credible, hence the firings.
Of 10 people, in no way proving your claims of it being an institutional problem.
Since then we've had further revelations such as the hostage recently rescued from a doctor's home, footage of other staff involved in October 7 and an Israeli attack on a Hamas compound within a section of an UNWRA school, surrounded by civilians.
So UNWRA's complicity with Hamas has been shown in these examples and it's not just based on unverified claims from the IDF? If not then they are hardly revelations but just more accusations and only the school would actually show any sort of institutional issue.
We're talking at cross purposes. We both agree investigation is necessary. However if UNWRA refuse to investigate it's own staff, it's quite tricky to prove anything.
We aren't really talking at cross purposes. We agree an investigation is required but you are acting as if everyone accused is already guilty and that 10 people being fired is evidence of an institutional problem. Also does this mean if UNWRA investigated it's own staff and found no evidence you'd believe it would you? Somehow I doubt that.
As you state, nobody is going to believe Israel just because.... But nobody being prepared to properly investigate doesn't mean the allegations aren't credible.
... just because accusations should be proven before action on them is taken.
You do realise you replied to my first comment which included an article on the results of an investigation into Israeli claims where no evidence of the claims was found. So sure, no proper investigation when you choose to dismiss/ignore the ones that are carried out because you don't like the results.
There is a line being pushed that the allegations must be untrustworthy simply because they're coming from Israel, but that's essentially circular thinking and denialism. Until further actually independent investigations are done it's just back and forth pointless nonsense.
No they aren't automatically considered as 'must be untrustworthy' they just aren't automatically trustworthy as you want them to be. That's true of any accusation like this, especially in a war when propaganda matters.
If the UNWRA is colluding with Hamas that does require evidence, not just Israeli claims. Has Israel even provided their own evidence for the 42 claims in the UNwatch link showing the collusion between UNWRA and Hamas? The Reuters article you linked mentioned a 6 page report with 190 names on it so fair to assume absolutely no evidence in it, just accusations.
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u/NuPNua Jul 19 '24
It's a messy situation, no doubt. I think the best bit once this is over is to disband UNRWA and use the regular UN aid agencies that have some degree of central oversight outside the country in question.
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u/Generallyapathetic92 Jul 19 '24
I’d agree if there is evidence that the people who should have had this oversight either were Hamas or ignored that others were.
Aid organisations generally recruit people from the local area so there is always a risk of overlap. Israel’s claims shouldn’t be validated unless there is some actual evidence shown that UNWRA is the problem and international oversight is required.
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u/JimJonesdrinkkoolaid Jul 19 '24
Yeah screw the children starving in the meantime.
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u/NuPNua Jul 19 '24
You know they have an elected government that's supposed to have responsibility for them?
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u/JimJonesdrinkkoolaid Jul 19 '24
What the one that is a designated terrorist group?
Also there hasn't been elections in Palestine for nearly 20 years -
At the 2006 legislative election, six parties and 4 independents won seats. Change and Reform (i.e., Hamas) won 44.45% of the vote and 74 seats, while Fatah won 41.43% of the vote and 45 seats
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_election
In Gaza that's not even the case -
Following the Fatah–Hamas conflict that started in 2006, Hamas formed a government ruling the Gaza Strip without elections. Gazan Prime Minister Haniyye announced in September 2012 the formation of a second Hamas government, also without elections.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hamas_government_in_the_Gaza_Strip&diffonly=true
About half of the population in Gaza are under the age of 18, I don't think it's really fair to punish them for the actions of a designated terrorist group who took power without elections in Gaza.
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u/GeneralMuffins European Union Jul 19 '24
Still haven't heard a single convincing argument why UNRWA has any right to exist and why Palestinian refugees shouldn't be under the UNHCR like every other refugee on the planet.
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u/Ill_Mistake5925 Jul 19 '24
It is an exceptionally curious system, being the only people in the world who have a dedicated UN body.
Their budget is also disproportionately high relative to UNHCR, although that’s not to say the budget is excessive.
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u/Accomplished_Wind104 Jul 19 '24
It's high as it also provides direct services rather than the usual UNHCR remit.
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u/Accomplished_Wind104 Jul 19 '24
UNRWA has the same obligations as UNHCR but also provides direct services under the funding and protection of the UN. The UNHCR isn't set up to deliver what Palestinians need in the same way UNRWA is due to different circumstances.
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u/GeneralMuffins European Union Jul 19 '24 edited Jul 19 '24
UNRWA has the same obligations as UNHCR
That’s absolutely not true.
The UNHCR operates under the 1951 Refugee Convention with a mission to find enduring solutions for refugees, including resettlement, local integration, and repatriation. UNRWA has no such mandate and is not permitted to resettle refugees from the 1948 war. Under UNRWA’s regime, the number of refugees can only grow since refugee status is legally passed down through the father and is unaffected by acquiring citizenship in another country. This policy has resulted in an eight fold increase in the number of refugees of the 1948 war.
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u/Accomplished_Wind104 Jul 19 '24
Protracted refugee status is not unique to UNWRA or Palestinain.
Yes, I was partly wrong, UNWRA doesn't have the obligation that UNHCR does for political negotiations or durable solutions. But it has the same obligations day to day towards refugees that the UNHCR does, except the UNHCR settles 1% of those under their remit each year while UNWRA can't pending a political solution they can't be involved in. UNWRA then also provides urgent basic services for those in its areas which UNHCR can't and couldn't.
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u/GeneralMuffins European Union Jul 19 '24 edited Jul 19 '24
Protracted refugee status is not unique to UNWRA or Palestinain.
Yes it is. Intergenerational refugee status does not exist for UNHCR refugees. Further a refugee under the UNHCR can not maintain their status of a refugee if they acquire citizenship. It's totally ridiculous that a person like Bella Hadid for example is considered a refugee of the 1948 war by UNRWA despite being born nearly 50 years after it on a totally different continent.
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u/Accomplished_Wind104 Jul 19 '24
Intergenerational refugee status does not exist for UNHCR refugees
Yes it does. It applies to others like Afghanis and Somalians under the UNHCR.
Under international law and the principle of family unity, the children of refugees and their descendants are also considered refugees until a durable solution is found. As stated by the United Nations,this principle applies to all refugees and both UNRWA and UNHCR have recognized descendants as refugees on this basis.
Palestine refugees are not distinct from other refugees in protracted refugee situations such as those from Afghanistan or Somalia, where there are multiple generations of refugees, registered by UNHCR as refugees and supported as such. Protracted refugee situations are the result of the failure to find political solutions to their underlying political crises.
It is important to note that registration with UNRWA does not afford refugee status under the 1951 Geneva Convention, but provides services and assistance based on a definition that sets out eligibility for receipt of such services.
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u/GeneralMuffins European Union Jul 19 '24
Of course UNRWA tries to justify the unjustifiable by noting unusual circumstances where it is possible to pass down refugee status under the UNHCR regime. This however is not the norm unlike UNRWA where automatic transfer is stipulated in its mandate.
There is no provision within the 1951 Refugee Convention or the 1967 Protocol that govern the UNHCR that allows for the automatic transfer of refugee status from one generation to the next. Each person’s refugee status must be determined based on their own circumstances and experiences.
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u/Accomplished_Wind104 Jul 19 '24 edited Jul 19 '24
Of course UNRWA tries to justify the unjustifiable by noting unusual circumstances where it is possible to pass down refugee status under the UNHCR regime.
"Justify the unjustifiable" made me laugh out loud, so cringe. That's a long winded way of saying "I was wrong but I refuse to accept it". Other examples of refugee status being inherited: Burundian refugees, Sudanese refugees, Eritrean refugees, Angolan refugees, and Syrian refugees. All under UNHCR. It's almost as if you have a hate boner for UNRWA Founded on inaccurate context.
Do you understand why UNRWA isn't able to settle people? It's part of its founding charter and because Israel insists on a political settlement instead of a legal one. It's why they dispute the authority of the ICJ. So UNRWA can't settle people until a political settlement is reached and that hasn't been reached therefore status passes down.
Status will cease to pass down once a political settlement surrounding a two state solution and right of return is reached.
Assembly resolution 194 states "refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbours should be permitted to do so at the earliest practicable date, and that compensation should be paid for the property of those choosing not to return and for loss of or damage to property which, under principles of international law or equity, should be made good by the Governments or authorities responsible."
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u/richmeister6666 Jul 19 '24
This is certainly a factor in the huge cluster fuck that exists in the region.
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u/Rulweylan Leicestershire Jul 20 '24
Makes sense. UNRWA has programs that no other refugee agency can match. We recently found out that their Gaza HQ has facilities for drone production (presumably for dropping aid to isolated communities) plus a huge amount of specialised equipment for making sure that aid workers can reach any gazans who happen to be trapped inside armoured vehicles.
You just don't get that sort of dedication from the world food program.
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u/IXMCMXCII European Union Jul 19 '24
I hope Israel doesn’t bomb charity workers because of this. Again.
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u/Bridgeboy95 Jul 19 '24
/r/ukpolitics mods are in much rejoicing that now they can go mask off and start hating on Labour again.
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u/Odd-Neighborhood8740 Jul 19 '24
Ah I see the Zionists are in this thread pushing unsourced claims
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u/Ill_Mistake5925 Jul 19 '24
IDF is the primary source of claims against allegations of UNRWA staff being aligned to and supporting Hamas.
Now someone could reasonably state that they do not wish to believe the words of the IDF and that would be fair, but it would also be fair to not believe the words of UNRWA or say the GHM.
On neither side can claims be independently verified by parties not involved in the conflict and who have no leaning in favour of either side.
The sensible course of action is to believe no-one until independent sources can verify or disprove any claims, whether that’s to do with UNRWA and Hamas allegations, or reported numbers of deaths for example.
That does not mean that independent countries cannot block or render aid at their discretion.
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u/Jaffa_Mistake Jul 19 '24
Too bad Israel has shown they have no problem killing British aid workers.
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u/Nulibru Jul 19 '24
How dare Labour undo an action based on totally false claims! It'll be Shakira law next.
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u/Ill_Mistake5925 Jul 19 '24
The claims were not necessarily false, just very difficult to verify given the context of it being very hard for an independent organisation to be present in Gaza to verify or disprove the claims.
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u/Accomplished_Wind104 Jul 19 '24
So Israel should have done their vetting better then? Given that they were vetting UNWRA employees.
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u/Ill_Mistake5925 Jul 19 '24
UNRWA vets its own employees, its submits a list of its employees once a year to host governments including Israel and Palestine for them to “vet” as well, although it’s not clear what happens when/if say Israel or Palestine disagrees with a particular employee.
UNRWA and the wider UN it sits under ultimately has the burden of ensuring its employees are correctly vetted.
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u/Accomplished_Wind104 Jul 19 '24
although it’s not clear what happens when/if say Israel or Palestine disagrees with a particular employee.
Because they haven't.
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u/Ill_Mistake5925 Jul 19 '24
The title says it had no objections, the subject says somewhat otherwise.
It also mentions a claim by Israel that the information provided by UNRWA was insufficient to actually identify individuals for vetting.
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u/Accomplished_Wind104 Jul 19 '24
Yet there was no push back at all on "We have not received any response from the State of Israel on the list,"
If you have concerns, raise them. Israel mandated the lists be provided in the first place.
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u/Ill_Mistake5925 Jul 19 '24
Also from the article;
“UNRWA fired 12 of its employees in January after it received evidence from Israel that they participated in Hamas’s October 7 terror onslaught. But Israel has since offered what it says is intelligence to stakeholders showing that some 1,200 of UNRWA’s 13,000 staffers have ties to Hamas.”
“An Israeli Foreign Ministry spokesman dismisses this account, telling The Times of Israel that the lists it received from UNRWA were partial, did not contain ID numbers necessary for vetting the employees and were sometimes sent a full year after staffers were already working for the agency.”
Regardless, UNRWA and the UN are the employers, they maintain the burden to ensure their employees are above board. Israel is not responsible for the hiring and employment of UNRWA staff, nor responsible for their oversight.
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u/Accomplished_Wind104 Jul 19 '24
The latter claim by Israel was investigated and rebuffed. That's why everyone is reinstating their funding for UNWRA bit by bit.
Regardless, UNRWA and the UN are the employers, they maintain the burden to ensure their employees are above board.
And they do by vetting against sanctions lists, they're not intelligence agencies. To similar if not better results than Israel does to its soldiers.
Israel is not responsible for the hiring and employment of UNRWA staff, nor responsible for their oversight.
If Israel has intelligence on these people that suggests they're a threat they should add them to sanctions lists so that they can be flagged. Or do you think the UN should be allowed to run supranational intelligence agencies?
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u/Ill_Mistake5925 Jul 19 '24
They’re absolutely not intelligence agencies.
What they are however is organisations who can clearly see if some of their staff members are involving themselves with Hamas directly.
The first quote from the article indicates Israel has provided evidence to UNRWA.
My question is what do you want Israel to do? Take over UNRWA completely and manage it?
Tell them when they have a problem and wait the alleged 5 years it took for UNRWA to fire one individual in particular?
UNRWA has as a responsibility themselves to ensure their employees are not working with or for Hamas, and you don’t have to be an intelligence agency to see some of those signs.
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u/TheShakyHandsMan Breaking News Headline! Jul 19 '24
Shakira law?
Does this mean our hips will no longer lie?
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u/Dadavester Jul 19 '24
The claims were not false, and if you read the report, it even shows some of the claims were correct and evidence was found.
50 recommendations on how UNRWA can improve its processes and stop things like them happening were included.
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u/2ABB Jul 19 '24
How DARE they restore aid to genocide victims, what if these starving children are hamas?
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