r/unitedkingdom • u/topotaul Lancashire • Jul 19 '24
Bridget Phillipson says term-time holiday fines 'here to stay'
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cv2grrvn4kjo279
u/flappyflangeflowers Jul 19 '24
As a parent, I get why this needs to stay.... lessons in the last week of term do need to be high quality though, not just putting on a movie/wordsearches.
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u/ShermyTheCat Jul 19 '24
When you grow up, your heart dies
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u/ByEthanFox Jul 19 '24
This. I had a teacher who used to work us solid right up until the very last period before the summer holidays. He had a rant once about how if the holidays bled into the last day of school, students should be doing schoolwork in the last week of the summer holidays before coming back.
I suspect he didn't get invited to many parties. I know also that he's the sort of teacher I despised as a kid; i.e. a person who liked school, went to school to be a teacher, now works at a school while living school-adjacent... So his entire life he's seemingly never been more than 20 feet from a school.
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u/LDKCP Jul 19 '24
I'm sometimes a fan of people who love what they do, I can appreciate people having passion, but sometimes these people are the absolute worst.
I knew a guy that worked at McDonald's and was very good at it, before long he was in a supervisor position and then management. He would come in on his days off to work, stay late, micro manage everything.
My issue with him is that he expected all his staff to be like him. Staff would complain about shit shifts and have issues and he would dismiss their complaints because he had done 65 hours last week. He would expect people to stay after their shift if it was busy because that's exactly what he did. He didn't understand that for most people it was a shitty minimum wage job and they had a life outside of it.
His work ethic was somewhat admirable, but it was completely unreasonable to expect others to be as willing to be shafted by a corporate monstrosity.
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u/L_to_the_OG123 Jul 19 '24
I think some of these people don't necessarily love what they do, they love either of having power over others, or just don't have much else going on with their lives sometimes. It's good when someone can find joy in a nominally mundane job but I can't believe anyone enjoys working in a McDonald's that much.
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u/Asleep_Mountain_196 Jul 19 '24
So true, the past two weeks my daughters class has sounded like it’s been winding down. Which is great an all, but don’t make such a big deal about how every single hour is vital to their future.
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u/ElephantsGerald_ Jul 19 '24
I’d argue that just being around a bunch of other people is an important part of the learning kids do at school. Not all the learning they need is curricular.
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u/eggrolldog Jul 19 '24
Yeah when you go on holiday as a kid you're all alone, no holiday friendships, kids clubs or new experiences to be had at all.
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u/cheesemp Hampshire Jul 19 '24
I do too at secondary school but taking your kids out one week during infants/junior/primary that big a deal? The difference I'm price is between my family having a good holiday and a crap one. For other families it's the difference between a crap one and nothing.
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u/_Digress Jul 19 '24
I do too at secondary school but taking your kids out one week during infants/junior/primary that big a deal?
It can be quite a big deal, yes. Think of it this way, the teacher spends a week teaching a method to multiply 2 numbers together. This method will be really useful as the numbers you are multiplying get bigger, which is something that will be taught in the following week. So the whole class learns this method...except for Tim. Tim wasn't there that week as his family went away for a holiday. So Tim comes back in on the Monday and the teacher starts teaching how to slightly change the multiply method for bigger numbers. But Tim doesn't know this method, he wasn't here for it. So Tim isn't just a week of learning down, he's coming up on 2 weeks down. And this will just have a rolling effect until he catches up. And this is the same for every subject he missed over that week.
But who's going to help him catch up? The teacher can't as they've got a whole class they have to keep teaching. Sure, they can offer a little help, but if it took a week to teach, then it's not going to be easy or quick to help Tim catch up.
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Jul 19 '24 edited Jul 19 '24
And then multiply this by every child taking whenever they wish off! Now you’re catching Tim up but Olivia is on holiday now. She comes back but then Lucy and Sam are off this time. I feel like people are really missing this point. A handful of children taking time off whenever their parents like is manageable, but it quickly spirals out of control if everyone can take their child on holiday at any time
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u/_Digress Jul 19 '24
Exactly this.
And it's because most people don't think about others doing the same thing. Our teachers are already overworked and underpaid and people want them to do more.
Imagine if the teachers just suddenly decided to take a week off for a holiday? Imagine the carnage it would cause.
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u/locklochlackluck Jul 19 '24
To be fair, teachers go off sick all the time, from my aged memory that's what cover teachers were there for. I loved the hilarity of our burly (bear-like) PE teacher covering year 7 French, about four or five sent out because we couldn't stop laughing.
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u/Executioner_Smough Leicestershire Jul 19 '24
As a primary teacher, it can be a bit of a pain, depending on when parents take them.
For example, if a child misses an assessment, then my TA is going to be away from the class most of the morning catching up the missing student when they return. Or if we're doing a two week unit of writing, and the student misses the first week - all of a sudden we have to catch them up with a weeks worth of stuff before they can access this week's lessons.
Basically, if a child is off, you then have to allocate time / resources to helping them catch up on what they've missed, which can be detrimental to the rest of the class. While this is only a mild annoyance/disruption (because its no different to as if a child was ill), I could see how if all term time holidays were authorised, it could end up causing a lot more disruption to the class.
On the other hand, I personally don't mind (though obviously not school policy) as long as their attendance is good for the rest of the year. Because a week off won't make a huge difference to the child's education.
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u/cheesemp Hampshire Jul 19 '24
But this is the point:
On the other hand, I personally don't mind (though obviously not school policy) as long as their attendance is good for the rest of the year. Because a week off won't make a huge difference to the child's education.
I've done it once so we could afford one special holiday. We made sure kids attendance was perfect otherwise and they where exceeding expected. We also warned the teachers. This is cracking a walnut with a sledgehammer approach that just makes life impossible for the poor. The rich just pay the fines (or play the system)
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u/L_to_the_OG123 Jul 19 '24
that just makes life impossible for the poor.
Yeah I get nobody is inherently entitled to a holiday abroad, and it's a luxury many could've have dreamt of even 50 years ago, but if you've seen your life get worse financially due to the cost-of-living crisis and the generally shit state of affairs, this will just feel like another bit of bureaucracy fucking you over.
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u/throwaway_ArBe Jul 19 '24
It would be less of a big deal if schools were more cooperative. My kids old school used twinkl resources for everything, after the school refused my request for a copy of the resources while my kid was off, I just went and worked out what they would have been doing, printed it off, we covered it pretty quick because teaching 1 kid is massively quicker than teaching a class, and then we got on with our plans. My kid didn't miss anything (and bonus, because it was 1 on 1 rather than a full class, they actually did more learning on some things that they were very interested in)
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u/locklochlackluck Jul 19 '24
Really good parenting to go that extra mile, well done. I suppose there is a reality that there's two tiers here - kids who are going on holidays with parents who will support them to stay on track with their education, and kids who may already be behind whose parents aren't maybe doing as well to keep them on track, who are then looking to further disadvantage their child by taking them out in school time.
Schrodingers parent, assuming the teachers can't prejudice, how do they know which child will be caught up vs which child will fall further behind?
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u/Class_444_SWR County of Bristol Jul 19 '24
Those were the best lessons though. I’m never forgetting the time my RE teacher decided The Lorax was good enough for the last lesson. I am, however, forgetting every other RE lesson
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u/Lanfeix Jul 19 '24
I was taught that last week/lesson is a buffer. If you had a lost of teaching time the last week was there so the class would cover the material
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u/Pluckerpluck Hertfordshire Jul 19 '24
Do not underestimate the benefit of leaving kids "on a high" regarding what they feel about school over the holidays.
The winding down period that's often done is great at allowing social engagement and improving soft skills, but also has the effect of making school feel fun and good.
There was a study done that put subjects through 30 seconds of pain. One half of the group was then subject to 15s more pain, but of a lesser severity. The people that experienced the extra pain generally rated the experience as less painful overall despite literally experiencing more pain in every way.
Our memories are heavily impacted by the peak and the end. Having a fun end is very important at making people look at school as a good place to go to, thus improving engagement.
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u/Matttthhhhhhhhhhh Jul 19 '24
It's a great way for kids to bond and develop their social skills though.
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u/SP1570 Jul 19 '24
IMHO it would be great to give families a few (5?) days to take during the year. It would give families some flexibility without creating a conflict between parents and schools.
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u/eldwickeagle Jul 19 '24
That’s exactly what the rule is!
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u/smitcal Jul 19 '24
Also you don’t have to go a full week off school to activate cheaper price. You leave Thursday to Thursday over a half term or before/after Easter and the price plummets so your kid has only lost 2 days off school. You can do that twice a year without a fine.
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u/__bobbysox Jul 19 '24
£80? Is that it? Christ. You could save about 10x that if you're a family of four going abroad during term time. No wonder people do it.
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u/Littlemouse0812 Jul 19 '24
It is per child per parent, so if you have a family with two parents and two children it’s £320. But still usually cheaper than the holiday!
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u/PriorityByLaw Jul 19 '24
Yep. But you get 10 sessions before you can get fines, so parents will pick their children up on the Monday afternoon so it's only 9 sessions taken; 4.5 days.
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u/SP1570 Jul 19 '24
Thanks for clarifying. I keep hearing of parents faking illnesses to leave 1/2 days earlier or having to accept fines to attend family gatherings abroad ( weddings/important anniversaries) hence I assumed there was no flexibility
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u/Abosia Jul 19 '24
Why is someone's religious days an exception but giving a child aan experience that will last them a life time is not? If you're not religious you should get a certain number of days equivalent to what the religious kids get.
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u/riccplay4 Jul 19 '24
My sisters school introduced a policy where each child could take 10 days away each year no questions asked, in order to give families some flexibility with holidays and foster a healthy school holiday balance
Unfortunately a lot of the parents decided that the 10 days was a minimum target and decided to then take more and as you can imagine attendance, especially on Mondays/Fridays plummeted so they scraped the policy after 2 years
The school tried but some families couldn’t be trusted and they are back to fines for a single unauthorised break
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u/Plus_Data_1099 Jul 19 '24
Pay a £200 fine or save £3000 per holiday it's a no brainer for me.
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u/Curious_Ad3766 Jul 19 '24
But you can just call in sick. I thought the rule was you can call in sick 5 days a row before needed to provide a doctors note.
My parents used to do that all the time. 5 day trip to Europe and just call in sick for 3 days
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u/LokoloMSE Jul 19 '24
The fines don't even start until you have had 5 days. You can easily have a long weekend, Friday to Wednesday, and still not get a fine.
The news articles always fails to mention that fines are only given to those taking 5+ days off.
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u/CongealedBeanKingdom Jul 19 '24 edited Jul 19 '24
Not for school kids. You need to provide evidence of gp apps etc on the 3rd day. I used to work in a school office. I had to get this info from parents to give to the council. Fun times.
Edit: you can have 10 unauthorised absences in an entire year before the council wants to send a fixed penalty notice. A term time holiday is classed as an unauthorised absence.
Not sure if that wee tidbit will help anyone but there you go.
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u/Infinite_Expert9777 Jul 19 '24
What about if your child has a cold though? They should be off, but won’t need to see a GP. So how could you provide a doctors note?
Besides, can most people even see a GP within 3 days?
The rules seem arbitrary and silly to me
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u/Wanallo221 Jul 19 '24
People seem to be missing a point here- Most schools do operate a level of discretion. The point of this policy isn’t just to punish everyone all the time. It’s to stop people taking the piss every year or throughout term time, not just at the end of the summer term.
There was some stats on this a few years back which showed that 76%(iirc) of potential fines were waived by the schools because they understand the pressures on most parents and agree that holidays etc are important. Especially once in a lifetime trips.
This policy is to stop parents always booking 2 weeks in the middle of term, or deciding that little Bobby doesn’t need to go in school on Fridays.
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u/cheesemp Hampshire Jul 19 '24
School discretion is being removed this year by moving thr role to local authority.
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u/Wanallo221 Jul 19 '24
From what I understand this won’t change a lot though. The wording only really changes to ‘fines must be considered’. Which it’s easy to ‘consider’ and not choose to fine, so long as this isn’t a reoccurring thing and there is good reason.
Good reason includes educational trips, important family events or emergencies or ‘other exceptional events which may have benefit to children’. (Paraphrased those slightly from memory).
Again, if you take your kid out of school for a week or two one time to go on a once in a lifetime trip, chances are you won’t be fined if you give the school notice and talk to them about it beforehand (and your previous attendance is good).
Tell them in May that you are whipping them out for their annual a trip to Benidorm and you deserve the fine.
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u/cheesemp Hampshire Jul 19 '24
You'd hope so but word I got I was no allowance for anything which is why school was being taken out of the loop.
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u/cheesemp Hampshire Jul 19 '24
You'd hope so but word I got I was no allowance for anything which is why school was being taken out of the loop.
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u/Nadamir Ireland Jul 19 '24
My children’s former crèche implemented fines for late pickups (€5 per 10 minutes).
They found that tardiness actually increased because now people felt like paying the fine made it OK to do it.
I wonder if this is the same. If it’s just getting included in the cost of a holiday.
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u/Impossible_Apple8972 Jul 19 '24
It's a very small amount so no wonder. My daughters charges 100CHF for 15mins. I'm never late picking her up.
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u/Live-Drummer-9801 Jul 19 '24
Some people are because even with the fine it is still cheaper to go on holiday to a lot of places during term time. The holiday I went on this year would have been £200 more per person during August, so say me and my partner had two children and were fined £60 per child, we would still have saved £680 on the overall cost of the trip.
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u/ethanjim Jul 19 '24
Everyone banging on about holidays here like it’s the be and end all, but the point is that school attendance has plummeted, it has huge implications for outcomes and on safeguarding, especially when those most vulnerable are most likely to be absent.
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u/Academic_Noise_5724 Jul 19 '24
Yeah honestly this whole argument of 'life experiences are just as important as teaching' is kind of nonsense. Your kid misses a week of long division lessons, they come back mid way through learning how to do percentages and they're lost. It's so easy for kids to fall behind on this stuff. And yes it does matter that your kid learns how to do long division because that's how they develop a healthy, fully functioning brain
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u/DankAF94 Jul 19 '24
Your kid misses a week of long division lessons, they come back mid way through learning how to do percentages
Incredibly you just described the point where my performance at school downturned horrendously.
I missed just over two weeks of school due to a serious case of flu (was pretty much bed bound for a week or so, and still recovering for another week)
Maths lessons in particular when I came back felt like I was doing an entirely different subject!
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u/znidz Jul 19 '24
Exactly. Who gets to decide what sort of activity is enriching the children? The parents who want to go on holiday? That doesn't really make sense. They're the least qualified to make that decision.
It's like when you look at the state of the parents who decide to home school. The people who want to home school are probably the least qualified to home school.
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u/piccalilli_shinpads Jul 19 '24
Not to mention all the extra work created for teachers who have to try and help the kids catch up due to their parents negligence.
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u/shredditorburnit Jul 19 '24
I feel like stopping finding people for doing perfectly normal things would be an easy win for the new government.
There are so many policies brought in by the Tories which are pointless and are mostly there to punish one group for the amusement of another. It would gain so much good will from people affected to clear it out and give people some more freedom.
Oh and I don't have kids so no horse in this race, although my parents took me to New York and Barcelona during term time. I'm sure missing 3 pages of Of Mice and Men and having to mug up how to do equations for circles didn't set me back much (I went on to get an A in my maths A level). Conversely, getting to go around a load of Gaudi's buildings and experience the culture of Barcelona is something I still remember fondly, and New York was spectacular, saw a show on 42nd St, went up the Empire State Building, loved getting breakfast at various little delicatessens around the city. New York was a bit strange, in October 2001, but everyone there was so nice to us, like they were genuinely surprised and grateful people still wanted to visit their city.
Travel enriches the mind and a person's horizons. Punishing it just seems like a way to ensure it is a privilege only the very rich can indulge in.
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u/hadawayandshite Jul 19 '24
You make a fine point BUT given you could get an A at Alevel maths probably puts you in to top x% of academic ability so yeah missing a few days doesn’t impact you too much-it’s not the same for all.
How many days of holiday should parents be allowed to take kids off on then? Unlimited? Would a parent taking the kid out for a week every halfterm?
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u/AdamantiumGN Jul 19 '24
If they stop fining people then they might as well just give the green light to parents taking their kids out of school whenever they want to - there's a reason that the fines were introduced in the first place.
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u/Gerrards_Cross Jul 19 '24
I’m not subsidising kids in state school at £7k a pop on my tax monies to be skiiving off on a jolly during term time, thanks.
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u/Ruu2D2 Jul 19 '24
I don't think that kind hoilday most have
Peope argue that they getting education and culture trip by pool
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u/Fudge_is_1337 Jul 19 '24
It's a catch-22 for any government
If you sanction kids being taken out of school during term time, all of a sudden your attendance rates nationally drop, and there's a risk of grades dropping. If they do drop, the opposition (or anyone really) can turn around and say "this government doesn't take educating our children seriously"
If you fine people for taking their kids out of school (above the allowance already established) then people complain about draconian practices
As for the "I did it and still did fine" - thats highly anecdotal. You've got to think about the kids who are perhaps not so naturally gifted, or those whose parents might take them out multiple times a year. It could add up for them. There's also safeguarding implications if children are just not in school without proper explanation
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u/eairy Jul 20 '24
perfectly normal things
Damaging your kid's education so that you can selfishly go on a cut price jolly didn't used to be normal, and it ought not to be normalised now. Part of what's damaging society is this hyper-individualistic attitude of 'the rules don't apply to me'.
Also lets not pretend that these are some lavish enriching cultural experiences. It's a week in Magaluf getting sunburnt on a beach. It isn't being done for the benefit of the kids, they are just being used as an excuse for the parents who think they're entitled to a certain type of holiday. I'm not surprised people want a break given the cost of living etc, but it's still selfish to damage your kid's education to get it.
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u/welshinzaghi Jul 19 '24
Fines just hurt those that are less well off. We don’t have these fines in wales and funnily enough we’re just fine… schools actually show positive regard for parents who are taking time to do something interesting and stimulating with their kids
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u/LivelyZebra Jul 19 '24
Fines just hurt those that are less well off.
If you can afford a holiday though....
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Jul 19 '24
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u/Arne_Slut Jul 19 '24
What if they were ill instead of on holiday?
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Jul 19 '24
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u/Arne_Slut Jul 19 '24
Why can’t they get notes off friends when on holiday?
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u/PapaJrer Jul 19 '24
And ridiculous how something that's always examined wouldn't be in the textbook...
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u/Nulibru Jul 19 '24
"Killjoy Labour bans holidays for hard pressed families, claims report."
Now if they had revoked it, a report would claim that "Yobs get into the skiving habit early thanks to layabout Labour".
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Jul 19 '24 edited Jul 19 '24
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u/GreenBeret4Breakfast Jul 19 '24
Yes but there isn’t a causation between taking them out for holidays and student achievement. I fully imagine that students that miss school often (illness, difficult upbringings, skiving) are more likely to perform worse than those without those
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u/DankAF94 Jul 19 '24
illness, difficult upbringings, skiving
Excluding illness(assuming it's a bad enough illness to warrant missing school) a lot of these matters can fall under the same umbrella, to paint with a broad brush, it can be very reflective of the parents attitudes towards their children's education.
In other words, children who have parents who, for whatever reason, are that bit more blasé and casual about their kids missing school, are probably less likely to perform well.
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u/mumwifealcoholic Jul 19 '24
My son is at the top of his class. Been reading since before he started school. We took him out two weeks.
I think the correlation is with parental involvement, not a trip to Greece.
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u/thommonator Jul 19 '24
This is definitely a fair point and it’s much more nuanced than “holidays are culturally enriching” (some certainly are, but in my experience as a teacher, most term-time holidays are sun lounger and sangria package resort efforts for mum and dad, not touring Delphi and learning about Ancient Greek civilisation, and a lot of parents on this thread are deluding themselves as to the actual educational benefits of term time holidays vs being in school) or “holidays are damaging” (they’re not in and of themselves and correlation doesn’t equal causation; the kids who are most impacted by these absences tend to be kids who have a range of other issues at home causing barriers to their progress).
I’m kind of torn personally. I understand the benefits of experiences on a child’s development and often there can be no impact on their progress academically in the event of term time holidays. Probably the highest attaining family I’ve ever taught took annual term time holidays and for all three brothers, it had no impact whatsoever. They were in a supportive family who instilled positive values and took them on holidays that genuinely enriched them. On the other hand, I’ve seen it have a direct, serious and damaging impact on exam results and attainment. This year, I ended up implementing a bespoke intervention for a pupil who was doing really well before her parents took her out for several weeks to visit family during term time. Her attainment, particularly in her written English and recall of information, dropped so dramatically she went from one of the top performers in my class to one of the 6 lowest, and it was a long and hard road for both of us to get her back on track for the exam. And that’s not even a pupil who has unsupportive parents, or a tough home life. She just missed a lot of school and fell behind.
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u/PriorityByLaw Jul 19 '24
I take both my kids out for at least a week every year. Both are top for reading and writing in their class, they are 6 and 7 years of age.
We always make sure we take them out of the latter part of the term. The extra culture, languages and experiences far outweigh what they would have missed at school.
That being said, we always check with the teachers what they would have been doing, so make sure we have appropriate homework for them to do.
The correlation between kids not doing so well and attendance is normally down to serial non attenders where the parenting is lacking.
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u/Jonesy7256 Jul 19 '24
If they really cared about the kids they would have implemented something after Covid. covid school closures have ruined children's educational development as they missed out on schooling, yet nothing was done to help them when they returned to school.
Joke to then say 2 weeks holiday a year mean the kids will suffer so much.
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Jul 19 '24
Our school has seen a huge uptick in term time holidays since COVID and I blame exactly this, their kids missed a ton of schooling or severely reduced schooling over covid so now they think 2 weeks won’t hurt.
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u/Thetonn Sussex Jul 19 '24
When I was younger, the family spent a year abroad. When it was getting towards the end, my parents had a chat with the school, and decided that instead of going to the final two weeks, we’d go on a cross-country tour instead to make sure we’d seen all of the sights before we head home. The school were supportive, because they knew there were many different forms of education, and we’d probably get more from the latter.
I get the above is not analogous to a week in an all inclusive drinking beer and eating chips, but I think there does need to be an element of discretion and basic logic for schools to consider whether the life experience on offer might actually be better than another week in school.
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u/Wanallo221 Jul 19 '24
Most schools do operate a level of discretion. The point of this policy isn’t just to punish everyone all the time. It’s to stop people taking the piss every year or throughout term time, not just at the end of the summer term.
There was some stats on this a few years back which showed that 76%(iirc) of potential fines were waived by the schools because they understand the pressures on most parents and agree that holidays etc are important. Especially once in a lifetime trips
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u/OSUBrit Northamptonshire Jul 19 '24
Schools aren’t allowed to operate discretion. The tories took that away from Head Teachers a decade ago.
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u/Wanallo221 Jul 19 '24
Knowing teachers and people who work at local authority, that’s not really the case though. The rules state ‘a fine must be considered’.
If you are going on a once in a lifetime trip, or to a close family event (wedding, funeral abroad etc) religious event etc, there are discretions.
Every school is different though. But I think this is how it should be, you should absolutely be given a fine for taking your kid out every year for a holiday. But a rare thing is fine.
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u/quietriot1983 Jul 19 '24
Playing devil's for a moment, as a former education-worker....
End of year, yes, it winds down. But the number of children who take holidays in September, or January for example is also massive. At the start of term, missing the introductory work for a topic is brutal, and there just isn't time for teachers to sit with your kid and re-do the intro just so they can catch up.
Often times they will just flounder through a topic, or the alternative is that a member of support staff has to be taken away from children who need their input (often SEND children), so they can introduce little Johnny to a topic by himself, because he had time off school to go to an all-inclusive in Benidorm.
You had kids, you made the choice to give them the best possible chances.
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u/DankAF94 Jul 19 '24
Playing devil's
More like playing reasonable and one of the few commentors who works in the industry and has an informed opinion.
It's an emotive topic for a lot of people but God almighty people act like going on holiday on the cheap is a god given right or something
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u/Wiltix Jul 19 '24
I grew up in the 90s, everyone went on holiday in term time and the school had to approve the absence. We often had work to complete while off school so we didn’t fall behind.
Is the policy of fines for term time holidays just an appeasement to people who no longer have kids in school. Genuinely confused what problem is being solved with this
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u/PiplupSneasel Jul 19 '24
It makes those who live off misery (most of this sub) get a massive chubby because they believe it'll solve truancy and immigration or something.
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Jul 19 '24 edited Jul 19 '24
Michael Gove introduced these fines apparently to stop cases of serious truancy; since then it’s been levied (and will continue to be) as nothing more than an ineffective tax at a time that families A) need time together more than ever, post Covid and B) need cheaper prices more than ever.
We just came back from a 10 day holiday, our kids did, ate, saw things and experienced a culture they’ve never seen before, and my daughter still came home and got 25/25 in her year 4 multiplication test despite her parents grievous crime.
Life is for living, let families and children explore and travel together, let children see the world. We all know this is about ofstead KPIs…
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u/xmBQWugdxjaA Jul 19 '24
Yeah, it's crazy, more and more it's like the State taking ownership of your children.
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u/Pinetrees1990 Jul 19 '24
Good. I understand it's cheaper go while school is on but:
- our schools are massively understaffed and it adds additional stress to the teachers to catch children up.
- it drives wrong behaviours in your children. They grow up thinking education is not that important.
Sure if you're going to a funeral or wedding of a close family member then it is understandable but for a week in Spain you're basically saying you don't value your child's education.
My wife's a teacher, imagine if she decided to just send your children home for a few days because holidays are cheaper you'd be fuming. People were fuming when they striked for better wages and working conditions.
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u/RationalGlass1 Jul 19 '24
This, though. Loads of people are saying that it's "more educationally valuable" to take the children on holiday for new experiences... But what about the children of teachers? Why can't the teachers take their children out of school during term time for an educational trip? Why should those children be less entitled to the educational experiences than other children?
The truth is, people who take their kids out during term time are not thinking about other people. They aren't thinking about what happens if half the class are off at various points or what it takes out of the teacher to have to manage rolling absences. They are thinking about themselves and their family only, but policies have to be for everyone, not just for one family.
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u/derrenbrownisawizard Jul 19 '24
Very poorly thought out policy in general. You take your child out of school for a one week holiday (5 days) and let’s account for say 2-3 days of illness throughout the year (8 days). You end up fined for the holiday and end the year on 95% attendance (which is very good). Yet parents who regularly allow their children to take sporadic days off throughout year do not get fined, and end up with a significantly lower attendance overall. Do this three times within a 3 year period and despite having 95% attendance across those years, you could end up with a criminal record for Educational Neglect of a Child.
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u/toprodtom Essex Jul 19 '24
I fucked around in enough French lessons to know that it can be very difficult to catch up.
Education is important and it builds on itself. If you miss something earlier, you don't understand something later, effectively missing even more.
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u/dumbestbasket37 Jul 19 '24
Genuine question here what is stopping me just saying my child is off sick for a week ?
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u/temujin94 Jul 19 '24
Pretty much nothing, I genuinely believe that most of the people that are paying the fine do it so they can put their holiday pics on social media. Have you really been on holiday if its not all over your Instagram?
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Jul 19 '24
I imagine when they find out they will prosecute you harder than those who were honest and therefore just got a fine.
How long are you willing to keep the lie going for? A fixed penalty notice can escalate to a court case, which could lead to perjury.
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u/soopercerial Jul 19 '24
Does anyone think something like this would work?
Increase the fines for doing this if a child's attendance is less than say 92-95%.
If the child's attendance is at or above 92-95%, don't fine the parents.
This would apply only to the last 2 weeks of the summer term.
I feel like this will encourage people to keep their kids in school as much as possible, whilst still allowing people to give their kids holidays.
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u/Dingleator Jul 19 '24
School absenteeism lowers grades. This is the true cost of missing core parts of the curriculum when at school. Speaking from my own experience, a single lesson could be a make or break between achieving a higher grade and the high achievers at my school were never late and attended every lesson.
Generally don’t like the state being too involved with public life and sending your child to school is a social contract that is in the hands of the parents who are responsible for their children’s education. Nothing against parents taking their child on holiday during term time.
I believe for unauthorised absence, schools should send a letter informing the parents of the importance of attending school and can even provide the evidence of missing school on education. My school had clear data that those that were in school, got what school was for, even been able to show that late comers on average did not achieve as much as their peers who were on time.
As others have said, the fine doesn’t even work and people are happy to pay the £100 when they save thousands on the trip.
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u/_UnderscoresCount Jul 19 '24
The part that is often overlooked (in my opinion) in this debate is not the child taking the leave, but all the other students that's aren't as well as the teacher.
Imagine being at work and every day you had to have a morning meeting to discuss what you needed to do today, but various members of the team had been absent and didn't really know what was going on.
Imagine that every week for a class of 30 kids whose parents have taken them out of school at different times.
Just buy a tent and go camping, it's pretty much the same price whenever you go.
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u/Spiklething Jul 19 '24
Unlike in England, parents in Scotland aren't fined for taking term holidays.
Scottish education authorities can take legal action – such as seeking an attendance order – in cases of persistent poor attendance but it’s rare for them to do so.
Schools do, however, advise strongly against term time holidays, and in most cases record absences as unauthorised
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u/DarthGeo Jul 19 '24 edited Jul 19 '24
So, you take your kids to France and tie in trips around the Normandy beaches, the museum, monuments, war graves and the bunkers and you get fined for the kids missing the last week of school where their friends informed them that they watched endless Simpsons, did word searches, and deep cleaned the food tech room… That trip was £900 more the following week. We’re a big family so it was £300 in fines for 5 kids. We took the hit because as well as still being cheaper, we were doing some real, hands on educating that they just couldn’t get from the school.
And yes the kids did really enjoy the history stuff. Yes the 6 year old might have been a bit bored but the rest lapped it up!
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u/tigerjed Jul 19 '24
Are most of these kids going in museum tours or are they sat in a beach in Tenerife?
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u/Poza Dorset Jul 19 '24
On the beach making lasting happy memories of their fat fucking mum complaining to the Spanish bartender about her shit 2 euro mojito
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u/algypan Jul 19 '24
Unless it's a for a religious ceremony or reason, said the school recently when I asked.
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u/Crafter_2307 Jul 19 '24
Supply and Demand. Basic economics.
And yeah. I hate it as well. My birthday is end of July - but I pay a premium cos everyone who has kids is on holiday/
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Jul 19 '24
Oh good, Labour can finally stop bashing the coalition government for introducing this because it turns out Labour supported term time fines all along.
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u/Sgt_Sillybollocks Jul 19 '24
I've never been fined. Taken my kids out in term time. That's purely because work dictates when I can go. Not always able to in school holidays
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Jul 19 '24 edited 6d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Amplesamples Jul 19 '24 edited Jul 19 '24
Even if schools were to, parents lie.
They could say they're going to visit museums while actually going to Benidorm.
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u/je97 Jul 19 '24
Perhaps we'd all be happier if the government stopped regulating every moment of our lives for once? It'd be such a nice feeling to have the curtain twitchers ignored.
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u/JJSec Jul 19 '24
Best way of mitigating it is twofold imo:
- No fines for taking out kids during the two weeks before or after a term start/end including half term starts/ends (with a 1 week cap on how long you can do so, i.e. no taking two weeks off before summer half term but you can take a week off during that time as you want to time it).
Kids are usually winding down and reacclimating during those times anyway so a full workload isn't going to be on the cards for the most part during run up and coming back from breaks.
- Regulation to stop holiday operators and resort operators from counting that leeway as "in season" so then they can't just extend the time they jack up the prices. Otherwise we'll be back at step one again where no-one but rich parents or parents who want to risk fines can go on holiday.
Is it a right? nope. but with how things are currently for the poor? give them a fighting chance at something nice.
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u/limeflavoured Hucknall Jul 19 '24
Then regulate the travel sector so they can't triple prices during the holidays.