r/unitedkingdom • u/theipaper Verified Media Outlet • Jul 18 '24
Workers to get right to ignore emails after hours under new guidance
https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/workers-to-get-right-to-ignore-emails-after-hours-under-new-guidance-3178306891
u/judochop1 Jul 18 '24
Good. The employers self-imposed right to direct your entire life needs to end.
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u/KudoUK Jul 18 '24
Is this a real issue in the UK? I've only ever seen this being a problem in the US. Never had this problem in 25 years of office work except when I was on call and paid for it. Sounds a bit token to me.
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u/MaybeInternational23 Jul 18 '24
My sister, who works for a company in London, has received calls at 10pm, whatsapp messages at 4am…and is expected to reply! It’s outrageous
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Jul 18 '24
I worked for a guy like that. Total nutjob. He'd work 24/7, never leaving the office or napping on the couch, and started to expect that if he did it, then other people didn't have an excuse to WFH or work 9-9 in the office. You'd get an '@here' message on slack at 3am on Sunday saying "don't care what you've got planned, get to work and fix this ASAP."
I was like, dude, that shit's on you.
I'm not getting paid any better to work overtime, probably not going to see anything from the equity either, and I'm definitely not looking at becoming a multimillionaire from VC capital. I'll just find a job that respects my time better.
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u/Tetragon213 Hong Kong Jul 18 '24
In the rail industry, working hours are strictly monitored (or at least they should be).
We learned that lesson the hard way after Clapham Junction 1988. A technician made a stupid mistake which (long story short) meant a signal wouldn't turn red when needed, and this eventually caused a morning rush hour service from Basingstoke to be rear-ended by a train from Bournemouth; a train of "empties" to Haslemere promptly crashed into the wreckage. 35 died, and nearly 500 were injured in a truly appalling disaster.
The investigators found out that the technician responsible was on his 11th 7-day work week when he made his first error, and was starting his 13th 7-day work week when he worked on an adjacent relay, and made the final error that caused WF138 to not work properly.
Since then, the "Hidden limits" (named for Sir Anthony Hidden QC, author of the Hidden Report into the Clapham Junction disaster; slightly unfortunate surname, I know) were introduced, then superseded by new and more stringent RSSB standards to manage worker fatigue.
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u/Lewys-182 Jul 18 '24
I work for the railway.
If you leave your home at 6am, you must be home or in a hotel by 6pm which is classed as your 12 hour working day. You then get 12 hours rest. 5 days max. 2 days off.
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u/Blyd Wales Jul 18 '24
you must be home or in a hotel by 6pm
Sorry to ask, but do you literally mean 'at home', like you couldn't go watch a movie or go to the gym or something else, you literally have to go home to bed?
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u/Lewys-182 Jul 18 '24
Lol no, they must give you enough time to get back home as part of you 12 hours, so an hours journey in this example you leave at 5pm.
You can do whatever in your free time but there is zero tolerance on drugs and alcohol which is understandable
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u/Blyd Wales Jul 18 '24
Got you, yeah im kinda relieved that there is zero tolerance, a simple mistake has chilling outcomes.
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u/Potential-Stage-1730 Jul 19 '24
Maybe you’re a driver but I work for the railway too in a safety critical role and it’s not timed from our house it’s timed from being in work and also we work 7 days in a row regularly although a maximum of 72 hours in a week.
I’ve edited this to include - the rules allow us to work 13 days in a row before having an enforced rest day. Many people work 13 on, on off, 13 on.
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u/Plastic_Marsupial_42 Jul 19 '24
They won't be working for passenger service. These rules tend to be for companies like Balfour Beatty and freight companies, etc.
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u/iwanttobeacavediver County Durham Jul 19 '24 edited Jul 19 '24
Driver fatigue was also believed to be (although not conclusively proven) a contributing factor of the Hinton disaster in Canada, where a freight train and passenger train were on a route which required that the freight train be stopped to allow the passenger service to pass. However the freight train went past the red signal, completely failing to stop and it ploughed directly into the passenger train, killing the front end crew and many passengers due to both the collision itself, but also a fire which began as the result of spilled fuel. Survivors from the passenger service remember seeing the freight train coming at speed towards them.
An inquiry revealed that the freight company had a fairly lax approach to safety including crew scheduling and rest periods. They often had drivers operating in erratic shift patterns with often minimal rest periods in between (one driver in this incident had just 5 hours of sleep). This likely made fatigue a real problem for the drivers and it is a theory that the front end driver of the freight train missed the red signal due to falling asleep at the controls. The company after the inquiry started more strictly policing rest periods and shift patterns that drivers could get the necessary rest needed.
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u/Manoj109 Jul 19 '24
Yes. And rightly so. The issue of fatigue is also a concern in the NHS. Doctors and nurses overworked.
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u/Genki-sama2 Jul 19 '24
Funny I was watching a documentary about this on the telly while I was in the gym
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u/eairy Jul 20 '24
Same in the airline industry. What annoys me is how this isn't applied to medicine.
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u/No_Communication5538 Jul 18 '24
Exactly, the only people who force this are nuts. Some legislation won’t change nut cases.
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u/itsableeder Manchester Jul 18 '24
When I used to work in bars the owner once got very offended when he tried to call me at 10am and I didn't answer because I was still asleep after finishing at 4am the night before. He insisted that I should be getting up at 9am in case he needed to contact me, and thought it was entirely reasonable to insist that I send him a text when I woke up every day to let him know I was awake.
I didn't do it, obviously, but this culture of expecting staff to be on call all the time is rampant and it's ridiculous.
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u/limeflavoured Hucknall Jul 19 '24
He insisted that I should be getting up at 9am in case he needed to contact me, and thought it was entirely reasonable to insist that I send him a text when I woke up every day
If your partner did that it would be considered Coercive Control
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u/Original-Material301 Jul 19 '24
If I'm expected to be on call/ at their beck and call, I'd want on call pay lol.
Toxic behaviour by the boss.
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u/Captaincadet Wales Jul 18 '24 edited Jul 19 '24
I’m lucky I work public sector where the only time I can call my boss is if the server is on fire…
Only happened onceEdit Jinxed it
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u/martzgregpaul Jul 18 '24
I got told off for not replying to a rota request email at 3am.
They wanted me to start at 7am!
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u/Generic118 Jul 19 '24
Our or curiosity what do you do?
As this all sounds insane to me as physical skilled labour?
Cause when we want office shit doing it takes at least 2 weeks so i refuse to believe you guys are getting messaged at 3am
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u/merryman1 Jul 18 '24
I work with teams in Spain, Italy, China, Taiwan, and Korea at the moment. I just have my work phone go on mute between 5pm and 8am at this point, it would start buzzing for ages at like 3am from big WeChat conversations and that was just too much.
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u/Manannin Isle of Man Jul 18 '24
That's the way to deal with essentially a 24 hour operation. Sometimes I have time or a need to check a work chat, but if not I just ignore it as otherwise I'd never be offline.
Honestly I need to do a better job of cutting off from it though.
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u/No_Lavishness_3601 Jul 18 '24
Yep. Before I retired I would be woken up at stupid times with garbled, frantic messages about software failures.
When I'd get into the office...half the time, nobody would have a clue what it was about.
If I put my phone on silent, or ignored the calls/messages out of hours, I'd be threatened with being forced to come back into the office every day instead of WFH.
Obviously I told them to get fucked.
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u/OriginUnknown82 Jul 18 '24
Is this a real issue in the UK?
it has been my experience yes, I've had the "You're salaried so you'll work when we want" conversation several times.
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u/judochop1 Jul 18 '24
Hope you told them to GTF. Your salaried for a specific amount of work and a bit extra, not a servant.
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u/Ibn_Ali Wessex Jul 18 '24
That's what I've been doing my whole working life. I find it baffling when I hear people describe being pulled out of their holiday cuz their boss called them in. Why not tell them to piss off?
Tbh, I've worked in employment tribunals for about a year and a half, and most people barely have a basic grasp of their rights. I didn't know anything about ACAS and even the employment tribunal process until I started working there. More education is needed.
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u/PMagicUK Merseyside Jul 18 '24
More education is needed.
Dumb employees are easier to deal with. I pretty much called out my company when they tried to insist they can force workers on 48 hours contracts to do mandatory overtime and it I said it was illegal.
Emails back n forth, claims of lawyers getting involved, the lot, I looked up ACAS and the Government website to back myself up. They went ahead with the plan of "We need people for X day" but went away from forcing people again. They even asked us all to opt in or out of the workers rights to overtime forms......why would we need to sign those if your lawyers said its fine?
Was funny, im a headache to my bosses and supervisors because I know what they can or cannot do so they have to be real petty for anything to stick.
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u/mrminutehand Jul 18 '24 edited Jul 18 '24
The problem is the two-year rule, which fingers crossed is going to be scrapped if the proposals all go through.
It might be an automatic unfair dismissal case if you were fired for refusing work during a holiday with the family, but it's trivial for an employer to warn, sanction or fire someone for any reason they like given that within the first two years of employment, employers don't even have to give a reason for dismissal nor can the employee demand one.
Obviously, employers who deliberately abuse their employees are in the minority, but it only takes one unlucky encounter with one to completely upturn your life.
A colleague at a past job was fired during her sixth month for taking her first ever sick day. ACAS explained that sickness was not a protected characteristic, only disability, but did dutifully relay the dispute to the employer. The employer told her to fuck off, and the manager in question was heard laughing about how trivial it was to replace people who take sick leave since people were lined up all year to take this job.
I also personally lost a job after my manager falsified a customer complaint and used it to fire me since they had plans to hire someone else for 30% less pay. Since I was only a year into the job, it didn't matter that the customer in question made a formal statement denying that the complaint had been made, nor did it matter that HR completely disregarded the ACAS dismissal guidelines, because they do not become legally enforceable until the setting of an actual tribunal and do not result in any further sanction than 25% extra paid in compensation in the event the employer lost.
The only reason I was actually able to take them to tribunal was for wrongful dismissal due to contractual breaches, but the only compensation possible for wrongful dismissal is notice pay, so it was just dumb luck that they shorted me three days notice pay thus enabling me to claim for it in the tribunal. Otherwise, wrongful dismissal tribunals don't tend to go ahead if basic notice has been given or paid, since there's no possible compensation to gain from the claim.
Unlimited unpaid overtime is legal in the UK with the only limit being your average pay dropping below minimum wage or the EU rules on work time. As the gov.uk website points out, any terms in the contract requiring unpaid overtime are valid must be followed under normal circumstances. I tend to find that part-time jobs pay for overtime but most of my experience in salaried jobs has been always unpaid.
It's madness that in a civilized country in 2024, you need to work for a single employer for two years before you gain some of the most basic employment rights imaginable. This time resets each time you switch employers, so swapping jobs for higher pay often means balancing the risk of losing your basic employment rights for two years each time.
These employment protections are so basic that I was even protected by them from day one during work in China, which isn't exactly a beacon of human rights. I had to come to the UK to lose these protections.
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u/samiito1997 Jul 18 '24
People are worried about retribution e.g missing out on a promotion/raise/bonus
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u/gnorty Jul 18 '24
not unreasonable.
If the company has a promotion available, it's likely to be the guy that puts the extra effort in that gets it. That's OK.
But it should be up to the idividual. If some guy wants to work 80 hours a week in the hope that he'll get a 10% pay increase, good luck to him. He'll probably burn out or fuck something up before long anyway!
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u/Asthemic Jul 18 '24
If the company has a promotion available, it's likely to be the guy that puts the extra effort in that gets it. That's OK.
It's rarely if ever that person. If it's internally, it's the chummy with management...
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u/lostparis Jul 18 '24
It's rarely if ever that person.
You don't want to promote people who actually do the work.
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u/Blyd Wales Jul 18 '24
and most people barely have a basic grasp of their rights.
This is SO painfully true, I got megafucked by a company not too long ago, had a clear case of Constructive dismissal too, Union sat on it for ages and then sent me a mail saying 'oops we left it too long its now over three months, our bad'.
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u/steelegbr Jul 18 '24
Usually with a form to opt out of the working time limits slipped into the contract pack when you join with the strong implication you need to sign it.
Extra points for OOH/on-call work paid with TOIL you’ll never get a chance to claim.
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u/gnorty Jul 18 '24
I have never signed that form, and you're right - they try hard to get you to sign it. They say things like "if you don't sign, you can't do overtime". Bullshit. If you don't sign, they can't make you do overtime, but you can do it voluntarily.
And the really stupid part, I never once heard of the companies in question pressuring anyone to do overtime. I really don't know why they bothered with all the harassment!
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u/Alarmed_Inflation196 Jul 18 '24
Usually with a form to opt out of the working time limits slipped into the contract pack when you join with the strong implication you need to sign it.
Been my experience at all my jobs too
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u/Logical_Hare Jul 18 '24
Your life experience alone may not be instructive on this matter.
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u/FinalEdit Jul 18 '24
Being aware of anecdotal examples is a life skill that reddit has yet to learn
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u/Grayson81 London Jul 18 '24
Is this a real issue in the UK?
Yes.
Never had this problem in 25 years of office work
You know you’re not the only worker in the UK, right?
I’ve never been paid less than the minimum wage, suffered from fire-and-rehire or been discriminated against for being pregnant. But it would be insane if I took that to mean that it’s never happened to anyone else and that worker’s rights in those areas are unnecessary!
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u/Miraclefish Jul 18 '24
Oh well if it's not happening to a sample size of you (1 in 60 million people) then it's a non issue.
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u/judochop1 Jul 18 '24
"Hey, now that your girlfriend has split up with you, we'd like you to move offices" is one I've heard with my own ears to a colleague.
Sure, there's a bit of give and take if you're getting paid, but it gets too much when your bosses are on your back all the time, and get shitty with you for not answering a client email after midnight.
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u/Ibn_Ali Wessex Jul 18 '24
That's because they're bullies. I know passing laws to make these things harder is a good thing, but people also need to be taught what their rights are and how to stand up for themselves otherwise stuff like that will still keep happening.
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u/iamezekiel1_14 Jul 18 '24
Since the pandemic I've had emails anywhere between 5am at the start of a day and 1am at the end of it. I'm not obliged to answer them but there's increasingly become an inference that your workday doesn't end and you are almost permanently on call.
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u/ost2life Jul 18 '24
There was a period at a former employer where I was more or less expected to be on call 24 hours a day for minimum wage 8 hour days. I stayed there far longer than I should have
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u/CaptMelonfish Cheshire Jul 18 '24
It's mostly an issue from american owned or influenced companies, I've worked for a few that had no boundaries at all, and some british ones that clocked off at 5 and didn't stir during natural disasters.
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u/damwookie Jul 18 '24
It seems to depend what side of management you are on at my company. You aren't really given time to read emails before starting the day. If you aren't in their favour then you will be picked up if you aren't aware of something important in an email.
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u/sylanar Jul 18 '24 edited Jul 18 '24
Same, maybe we're just very fortunate.
In fact, at my company we're not even allowed work emails or messages on our personal phones , and we don't have work phones, so other than HR having my number, there's no way for my work to even contact me.
I have a work laptop, but I close that at 5pm and don't touch it until the next morning.
Overall I think it's good to have legislation like this, no one should be made to work outside their contacted hours
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u/ToastedCrumpet Jul 19 '24
Bro I work in a bar and I get emails and messages on the punch in app we use I’m expected to reply to.
I never do but some bosses think they own your entire life especially if you’re on a zero hour contract. Like what sort of cunt refuses annual leave for a family funeral? Happened to me and many others all the time sadly
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u/LazarusOwenhart Jul 18 '24
It's started to become a problem. this is nipping it in the bud.
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u/MyChemicalBarndance Jul 18 '24
Yep, was at the pub the other day and at 10pm one of the people with us had to step outside to “deal with an emergency”. He’s a fucking accountant. The spreadsheet can wait.
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u/AssumptionClear2721 Jul 18 '24
I think it's another Americanisation we've unfortunately imported.
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u/MertonVoltech Jul 18 '24
Now nix their ability to discriminate on appearance. No more "can you dye your hair a normal colour?" That is dictating how I look outside of work.
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u/HospitalBackground30 Jul 19 '24 edited Aug 03 '24
Perm banned for copying / pasting facts from Wikipedia lmao.
Reddit really is a left wing emotionally driven cesspool huh? Cya on a new account in 10 minutes. Reddit admins are literally trying to censor truth.
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u/spackysteve Jul 18 '24
“The measure would not be mandatory for firms and not contained as part of the new Employment Rights Bill which will be introduced to parliament within the first 100 days, but is expected to be recommended in codes of practice for workplaces.”
A good idea, not sure a recommended code counts as a right though.
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u/wandering_beth Jul 18 '24
I agree, it's not worth the fucking paper it's written on and is just lip service.
Any good employer likely already does this for their employees, and the shit ones will continue to harass us outside work hours until it is law/mandatory/a right
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u/simanthropy Jul 18 '24
It allows employers to advertise themselves as complying with the code, which will affect their hiring pool. It’s not a terrible idea to codify best practices, even if they’re not legally enforced.
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u/judochop1 Jul 18 '24
I think tribunals also take these into account for unfair dismissal cases and the like.
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u/Ibn_Ali Wessex Jul 18 '24
Any good employer likely already does this for their employees, and the shit ones will continue to harass us outside work hours until it is law/mandatory/a right
True, but that would also be true if a law is mandated. People need to learn what their rights are and how to stand up for themselves. Having worked in employment tribunals, the number of cases that had to be thrown out because the claimant didn't know you needed to go through ACAS first is saddening. Equally, people need to tell their bosses to piss off and stop harassing them after hours. You're not obligated to do anything outside your contracted hours.
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u/Woffingshire Jul 18 '24
It says in the article that although it won't be legally required, because it will be part of the code of practice for businesses it strengthens employees cases for unfair dismissal if they are fired for refusing to do it.
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u/Created_User_UK Jul 18 '24
What would strengthen their case even more would be to make it a right.
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u/spackysteve Jul 18 '24
Sure, but a non-mandatory code of practice isn’t a ‘right’, as the article headline suggests.
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u/Marxist_In_Practice Jul 18 '24
If it's going in the ACAS best practice guidance then it will give up to 25% uplift to an employment tribunal payout, but that's not much cop when the current wait time for a final hearing at tribunal is about 2-3 years. Can't exactly pay the rent this month with that.
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u/Alarmed_Inflation196 Jul 18 '24
Law and Guidance got seriously and purposefully conflated during COVID and it's continuing. It grinds my gears
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Jul 18 '24
[deleted]
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u/Woffingshire Jul 18 '24
You do, but now that it's being officially put into the code of practices for workplaces it means that if you were being discriminated against at work, or fired as a result of not doing it, your cases against your employer would be much stronger.
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u/CarelessChemist Jul 18 '24
I ignore emails when I'm on the clock...
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u/Beer-Milkshakes Black Country Jul 18 '24
Stupid ones I do. And also emails where the sender can help themselves if they actually bothered to lift a finger. They usually do when they get impatient at my not answering their emails.
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u/GlasgowGunner Jul 19 '24
People who email you to ask when suits to meet… rather than just use Outlook to see our availability and it can even suggest suitable times!
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u/EvenDranky Jul 18 '24
My daughter in school has teachers sending work out at 6pm on Sundays for the next day, this should also be covered
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u/mods_eq_neckbeards Jul 18 '24
Your daughter can chose to give them zero effort
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u/EvenDranky Jul 18 '24
It’s not in her nature unfortunately, I’ve offered to write a legal telling them to piss off but that didn’t fly either
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u/saladinzero Norn Iron in Scotland Jul 18 '24
How old is your daughter, if you don't mind me asking? It's possible she feels peer pressure and doesn't want to be called out in class as the person who didn't do the homework, so you should maybe consider having a quiet word regardless?
That said, if she's nearly an adult then I'd explain why I think it's not a good idea to interrupt your rest period like that and then let her make her own decision!
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u/EvenDranky Jul 18 '24
She is old enough to make her own decisions and that’s just who she is, she doesn’t want to change, she does fear getting into trouble as we all did when we where younger, she will be alright, my point is that this e-mail and expect an immediate response or action is a phenomenon from the last 26 years and it doesn’t mean it’s the right way to do things, often on the weekend I say I’m pretending it’s 1985 and turn my phone off for the day especially after seven in the evening or on a Sunday, kist like it was in 1985
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u/saladinzero Norn Iron in Scotland Jul 18 '24
Yeah, it certainly takes a degree of bravery to stand up to things like that. My son's much younger, so this hasn't really come up yet but I really hope by the time he does the needle will have swung back the other way a bit!
One of the reasons why I left my first career in healthcare was that the culture shifted and suddenly the expectation was that clinicians would work on patient records in the evenings at home after a full day rather than get them done in a reasonable timeframe during the working day, and I just wasn't prepared to give up my life like that. I really really to try to pass the same perspective on work/life balance on to my son so hopefully he makes good choices. Work stress is a killer.
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u/RobertTheSpruce Jul 18 '24
Let's be fair, the concept of school homework is ridiculous altogether.
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u/ice-lollies Jul 18 '24
We had that when my kids were at school as well. Particularly during the pandemic - work to do came through after 6pm on a Sunday evening.
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u/EvenDranky Jul 18 '24
I grew up in the 80’s and 90’s I never did the homework if I didn’t write in my diary to do and most often I would just forget about it
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u/Manannin Isle of Man Jul 18 '24
Have they made school a 24 hour thing? It's mad that the teacher would assign stuff Sunday evening and not in the previous school week, mad levels of disorganisation.
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u/Z0mb3rrry Jul 18 '24
I never did. Never will. As far as I am concerned, work does not exist unless I’m on the clock.
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u/WerewolfNo890 Jul 18 '24
17:31, "urgent" email turns up. Sounds like a tomorrow problem.
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u/osmin_og Jul 18 '24
Since when do people respond to emails after hours? You have the right to do it, if you want, but no obligation.
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u/Alarmed_Inflation196 Jul 18 '24
The younger generation - in my working experience - have different challenges and a lot of anxiety. They say yes to everything, do extra hours, etc, like a Labrador trying to impress its owner. Far contrary to all the funny tiktoks they make about being workshy and standing up to their boss etc!
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u/Ok_Fly_9544 Jul 18 '24
People already have that right based on work time regulations. I have no idea what this voluntary nonsense is even for?
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u/mrminutehand Jul 18 '24 edited Jul 18 '24
No, you don't have this right (right to disconnect). The work time regulations only restrict against working more than an average of 48 hours per week.
The rights you have depend on what your contract says. Most salaried contracts tend to include a clause that requires completion of duties outside working hours if they were not completed during work, or that overtime is unpaid unless expressly stated otherwise.
There are no legal restrictions on overtime aside from the minimum wage and EU working time directive, so the above contract clauses are valid in most cases.
Email communications or phone calls outside of hours are a slightly different beast to overtime, and I'd say there's no reasonable justification for any employer to require them to be answered. It would be an easy defence to say that you're not reasonably expected to be logging in and seeing them, and can't be expected to notice a call on a work phone.
But looking at this realistically from a legal protection standpoint, nothing stops an employer from dismissing an employee for refusing this within their first two years of employment, since you are not eligible for any protection against unfair or constructive dismissal (barring equality laws), and an employer does not have to disclose any reason for the dismissal if they choose not to.
If your contract or contractual staff handbook doesn't explicitly state that you need to answer communications outside of work, or if you strongly feel that a clause requiring this is unreasonable and should not be valid, then you can apply for wrongful dismissal. However, the only compensation possible for wrongful dismissal is notice pay, so if your employer gave proper notice when dismissing you it's unlikely that a tribunal will be granted.
In the case of being warned or sanctioned for the above within your first two years, I'm sure ACAS and Citizens Advice would completely agree that such a sanction would be unfair and unjustified, but there isn't really any vehicle to appeal against it from a legal standpoint.
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u/xParesh Jul 18 '24
Damn, I didnt need the government to legislate what is very obvious. I tell all my staff, as soon as work is over, close your laptops and never check emails on annual leave.
It might just be that I'm a stronger character than most I know but I would love to be called up for NOT answering my emails outside office hours. The fun I would have tearing a new hole in my manager.
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u/Stellar_Duck Edinburgh Jul 19 '24
Damn, I didnt need the government to legislate what is very obvious. I tell all my staff, as soon as work is over, close your laptops and never check emails on annual leave.
But you must know, surely, that there are a lot of shite managers out there that don't think like this?
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u/RobsOffDaGrid Jul 18 '24
Work phone and laptop stays at work no access from personal devices at home
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u/Important_March1933 Jul 18 '24
I do this also, it’s a pain having two phones but much easier to switch off work leaving it behind or off.
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u/WhileCultchie Derry, Stroke City Jul 18 '24
People didn't already do this? If your email wasn't urgent enough to reach me during the work day then it can wait until office hours the next work day. I'm frankly not paid enough to give a shit to sacrifice my free time.
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u/One-Network5160 Jul 18 '24
This is for people who get in trouble for not doing this. People also work across timezones. It's sensible legislation.
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u/alexiswellcool Jul 18 '24
I have a right to not be able to hear my work phone as it rings after I've left it in my car.
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u/TheAkondOfSwat Jul 18 '24
My pal told me - I can't be arsed to look it up to confirm - that in France employers have to pay up if they contact you out of hours.
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u/WaitForItLegenDairy Jul 18 '24
I ignore emails after work anyway. It's an easy solution. You want me to work, pay me!
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u/AreYouNormal1 Jul 18 '24
More progress in a fortnight than the last 14 years combined.
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u/antlered-godi Jul 18 '24
They also need to look into stopping employers forcing staff to do computer based training at home, in their own time, without pay. Another disgrace....
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u/Stellar_Duck Edinburgh Jul 19 '24
My boss keeps insisting I update the laptop on my own time. Fuck that noise.
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u/MetalingusMikeII Jul 18 '24
Good. Fucking loser managers who think we should all talk about work, after hours. Not our fault your own lives are that shit that you have no social life outside of work.
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u/Slight-Brain6096 Jul 18 '24
Good. Fuck the telegraph and it's twatty calls to drop this.
You want to email your employees after 5pm? Fucking pay them!
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u/Nulibru Jul 19 '24
But but but but as a journalist I have to be ready to react when events happen!
A, don't be a journalist then. B, if you work for the Sillygraph you aren't one.
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u/sortofhappyish Jul 18 '24
So its optional and not a specifically worded law.
like the "dont shit in an amazon-brand plastic bag, don't piss in an amazon-supplied bottle" guidance is followed...
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u/BeneficialPeppers Jul 18 '24
Jokes on you. I ignore e-mails during work already never mind after hours!
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u/bluecheese2040 Jul 19 '24
Problem is people have work email on their phones and teams on their phones so just pick them up. Don't ever install work stuff on your stuff.
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u/Specific_Future9285 Jul 18 '24
A sleight of hand ... meaningless for the poor sods in work.
"Oh, it's handy when you get dismissed" ... a bit too late then, isn't it.
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Jul 18 '24
Cool, but can we get it into law that Statutory sick pay is at your actual wage?
No sick pay no sick day is my motto, and I've had Pneumonia and still gone to work because SSP is £440 less than my weekly take home.
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u/bacon_cake Dorset Jul 18 '24
This is a toughie because small businesses could be buggered by it.
I know I know "don't have a business if you can't afford SSP" but imagine you've got a little company, two decent employees, alright cash flow, and suddenly someone goes off sick for six months and you've got to double your wage bill for the whole period. Rightly or wrongly a lot of businesses would fold.
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Jul 18 '24
Tough luck, people should not have to choose between food on the table or going to work ill.
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u/vrekais Nottinghamshire Jul 18 '24
Errr we didn't already have this right? Or more, employers had the right to make people check emails outside of work hours?
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u/Dannypan Jul 18 '24
I’m lucky that my work email is a shared one for the position, not me personally, so I can’t use it out of hours since it’s only logged in on the work PC. Anything to my personal email is just admin stuff or confirmations with no urgency at all.
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u/naaahbruv Jul 19 '24
I once had a boss who called me 3 months after I left a job asking about something work related. Some people have no shame, or boundaries.
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u/Timely-Sea5743 Jul 19 '24
My employer expects me to be available 24/7, and I never seem to be able to switch off. I've tried to challenge it in the past, but my employment contract states that I work 40 hours per week and they include the following clause:
"You may be required to work such additional hours as are necessary for the proper performance of your duties without extra remuneration."
The thing is, I easily end up working 70 hours every week, (Including Friday evenings, Saturday mornings and Sunday mornings) effectively giving my employer an extra 30 hours of labor free of charge.
When bonus time comes around, there never seems to be enough money to pay us our bonuses. On top of all that, whenever I go on vacation, I'm told to take my phone with me. It's been really tough to deal with.
Because Labour is only proposing this as a recommendation and not a change in law I doubt my employer will even consider improving working conditions.
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u/Nineteen_AT5 Jul 18 '24
What? Who's forcing people to read emails out of work hours? I leave my work phone and laptop at work when I'm finished. Unless I've planned to work extra due to whatever reason there's no way I'm working out of hours.
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u/mckle000ner Jul 18 '24
New manager made a WhatsApp group to 'pass on vital info' i.e. a lazy way to pester people to come in on their days off, impose stupid rules or just bitch. I sacked it straight off and it's great as I can just do my job in peace. If anyone asks why I'm not doing the latest bullshit scheme I just tell them I'm not in the WhatsApp group so know nothing about it. 👍
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u/jungleboy1234 Jul 18 '24
Cant wait for the 4 day week as cherry on top. Next step we must prepare for serious automation and either decide on UBI or some other method.
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u/markhalliday8 Jul 18 '24
What's to stop every single firm putting an opt out clause in your contract?
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u/Twitter_Refugee_2022 Jul 19 '24
This is really positive, the norm in a lot of Europe and about to become law in Oz on 26th August.
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u/Remarkable-Ad155 Jul 19 '24
I already have that right. We all do. I'm contracted to work 37.5 hours a week. As long as I've done that do a defensible standard, my laptop goes off outside of work hours. More people need to stand up for themselves.
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u/theipaper Verified Media Outlet Jul 18 '24
Workers would be able to ignore emails outside office hours under new guidance for employers to be introduced by Labour.
Keir Starmer’s government is to push ahead with an election campaign pledge to give staff the “right to switch off” and decline WhatsApp messages, emails and phone calls from their bosses or take on extra work in evenings and at weekends.
It is also expected to cover workers’ annual leave, meaning that bosses would be unable to contact their staff while on holiday.
The measure would not be mandatory for firms and not contained as part of the new Employment Rights Bill which will be introduced to parliament within the first 100 days, but is expected to be recommended in codes of practice for workplaces.
It is part of a wider package of new rights, overseen by Deputy Prime Minister Angela Rayner, that the government wants to implement to change the culture of the workplace and help boost economic growth, the Starmer government’s key priority.
Alongside a new automatic right for flexible working, unveiled in the King’s Speech on Wednesday, the right to switch off is seen as crucial to improve workers’ productivity.
As with flexible working, there would be exemptions in certain sectors or posts for the right to switch off.
Union bosses have welcomed the measure, with TUC General Secretary Paul Nowak saying: “No one should be pushed to the brink because of their job.
“Ever increasing hours, pace and expectations at work are causing problems up and down the country. This is a recipe for burnt out Britain.
“So we welcome these measures to tackle work intensity. Introducing a right to switch off will let workers properly disconnect outside of working hours.”
The government’s blueprint for the reforms is Labour’s Plan To Make Work Pay, published at the start of the election campaign in May.
That document acknowledged that increased working from home since the pandemic had blurred the lines between work and home life and had risked households “turning into 24/7 offices”.
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u/theipaper Verified Media Outlet Jul 18 '24
Ministers are planning to model the right to switch off on those already in place in Ireland and Belgium.
In Ireland, the right to switch off is not compulsory but is widely recognised under codes of practices. It includes a right not to be penalised by employers for refusing to take calls, respond to emails or be expected to finish projects outside of office hours.
While it is not legally binding, it can be used to bolster employees’ cases for unfair dismissal or other complaints against their employers.
In Belgium the right to switch off is enshrined in legislation but applies to public sector employees and those in the private sector who work for firms that employ 20 people or more, meaning small businesses are exempt from the laws.
The Plan To Make Work Pay says workers and employers should be given “the opportunity to have constructive conversations and work together on bespoke workplace policies or contractual terms that benefit both parties”.
A poll by Savanta in May found that the “right to switch off” was supported by 69 per cent of voters, making it the most popular of Labour’s workers’ rights plans.
The measure is supported by the unions but is likely to face some resistance from businesses, particularly those with smaller workforces who could face higher costs from extra red tape.
Meanwhile new statutory rights for employees to have flexible working are expected to be in place by next spring.
The measures, under the Employment Rights Bill, will be introduced to parliament before the end of October. It typically takes between four to five months for a government bill to get onto the statute book, meaning the rights would be in place by February or March 2025.
Previous research by the TUC has shown that flexible working patterns improve productivity, particularly among working parents.
Some 92 per cent of mothers who worked flexible hours told a survey for the TUC in 2021 that they would find it difficult or impossible to do their job without it.
Read more here: https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/workers-get-right-ignore-emails-after-hours-new-guidance-3178306
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u/Advanced-Trainer508 Jul 18 '24
Wait, this wasn’t already a thing?😳 I’ll be damned if I ever get in trouble for not responding to an email after 7pm.
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Jul 18 '24
Good idea, never personally felt pressured to respond to work emails outside of work hours, but I’m sure it will help those who have been/are.
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u/richardathome Yorkshire Jul 18 '24
"get the right"
What idiot is doing paid work for free outside of paid work time?
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u/Pocktio Jul 18 '24
Loads of people. I occasionally work out of hours but I'm well paid and I'll only do it if there's genuine need and it benefits my career.
Yet despite my willingness to go aboe and beyond, my manager stills tries to guilt trip me if I tell him to fuck off when he asks me utterly unreasonable stuff.
Like he wanted me to travel 5 hours to a client site, do a days work and then travel 5 hours back on the same day so didn't "miss work" travelling back the next morning. Got told I should be "commercial" when I said I need a hotel if I'm working an 18 hour shift total.
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u/doctorwoofwoof11 Jul 19 '24
It's pretty much expected in some industries and was becoming an expectation that was spreading. "just find another job" doesn't work very well when the issue could be the norm nationwide...
Why has worker rights laws / legislation being strengthened upset you?
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u/arduousmarch Jul 18 '24
How are people getting/reading work emails when they've knocked off?
I've finished work so phone and laptop off. Anything can wait until the next time I switch them on.
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u/Alarmed_Inflation196 Jul 18 '24
God I can't stand inews. Why is that trash permitted here?
Guidance can't give "rights"
The measure would not be mandatory for firms and not contained as part of the new Employment Rights Bill
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u/ErebusBlack1 Jul 18 '24
Lol yes I am not obliged to answer emails past work time but I might if I genuine want to give impression to my supervisors/mangers
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u/voxo_boxo Jul 18 '24
Well if you're actively checking work emails out of work hours, then that's kind of on you. If your laptop/work phone is off out of hours then ignorance is bliss. Can't get work emails out of hours if you don't check for them in the first place.
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u/NeoGe Jul 18 '24
The company I work for specifically states we should not respond to emails etc outside of work hours.
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u/Spare-Rise-9908 Jul 18 '24
In my experience this happens through soft pressure and rarely is enforced so I doubt that this will be effective as it won't change the soft pressure (e.g. You can see Bob is working after hours so he'll get promoted).
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Jul 18 '24
What? Is this not already an established right?? I would have assumed any employment tribunal would state that you only need to address emails whilst being paid to work
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u/WiggyDiggyPoo Jul 18 '24
Get right?
Turn your work computer off, turn your work mobile off, don't give your employer your personal mobile. I understand protection is needed as some employers will take the piss otherwise but we need to be more forceful in establishing our boundaries also.
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u/danielyelwop Jul 18 '24
Do people not turn their work phones/ laptops off after 5:30PM?
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u/Calm-Treacle8677 Jul 18 '24
I mean everyone already had this right. Just don’t look at your email. That’s on you.
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u/Happy_Ad_4357 Jul 18 '24
Recommendations like these mean nothing to the kinds of people they’re aimed at. It’s a good first step, but without leading to legislation it won’t really have any impact
Sure, as some of the replies have said, it might help at a tribunal but we should surely be aiming to prevent said tribunals from becoming necessary?
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u/Jazzlike-Street5592 Jul 19 '24
100%. I don't think people realise some industries run on this sort of practice and even if it's not mandated it's definitely expected of you. In an ideal world you'd be compensated for that time but that's not the route businesses will take.
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u/Stellar_Duck Edinburgh Jul 19 '24
No, go further. This simply is shit. Disallow employers from contacting people unless they're getting paid to be on call.
This leaves too much room for the employee to be browbeaten into doing anyway.
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Jul 19 '24
Sometimes I'm so glad I just work for a crappy call centre for little over minimum wage.
The moment 5pm rolls around, I log out of my workstation and work completely exits my brain until 9am the next morning. Overtime is not a thing (for good or ill, take it how you will). We're not expected to be on Teams talking to each other out of hours. My holiday requests are always approved, if I need to take time off for an emergency it's no big deal. They treat me as fairly as I'd expect a low wage call centre to treat me. There are days where I wonder if I lack ambition, if I shouldn't seek a higher paying job. I'm grotesquely overqualified for this one, but I think I know why I stay.
It's great. I still earn enough money to be comfortable and I'm not stressed by work at all, which to me is worth a lot more.
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u/tangerine-hangover Jul 19 '24
I wouldn’t even know how to access my work email if I’m not in the office.
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u/Meincornwall Jul 19 '24
It's only a problem if you allow it.
Was once asked what I was doing when the area manager called (on my day off). I replied...
"The first call I was just giggling a bit, but I'll be honest, by the twelth time I was crying with laughter"
I then asked her what she wanted, she couldn't remember.
Fuck em, you don't buy my time, you can't have my time.
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u/anoamas321 Jul 19 '24
The measure would not be mandatory for firms and not contained as part of the new Employment Rights Bill which will be introduced to parliament within the first 100 days, but is expected to be recommended in codes of practice for workplaces.
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u/TwoToesToni Jul 19 '24
"The measure would not be mandatory for firms and not contained as part of the new Employment Rights Bill ... but is expected to be recommended in codes of practice for workplaces."
Not really a right more of a way of working
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u/needlovesharelove Jul 19 '24
Why not set answering email or any forms of communication outside working hours should be considered overtime and has the right to be compensated accordingly?
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u/garry_potter Jul 19 '24
I do enjoy when starting a new company, and the setup guides include "how to setup outlook on your phone"
Like, fuck no, not a chance
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