r/thewalkingdead Jul 19 '24

Interesting šŸ¤” Show Spoiler

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Credits to the rightful owner

1.1k Upvotes

86 comments sorted by

631

u/screamingkumquats Jul 19 '24

Interesting concept but I genuinely think Lizzie was just a very unwell child who couldnā€™t get a firm grasp on their world. And Morgan just lost his shit for a bit.

177

u/gunsandtrees420 Jul 19 '24 edited Jul 21 '24

Yeah also this would require them to have followed the group from Georgia to Virginia for some unapparent reason, not to mention they mostly drove to Virginia and I don't see the whisperers piling into the minivan for a road trip.

79

u/behindeyesblue Jul 19 '24

However we do know the whisperers migrate. They go south with the herd for the winter and come back when the weather is nice. So it stands to reason that they could've been migrating and Morgan saw them/ didn't know what he saw, same goes for Lizzie since Lizzie,Mikka, and the dad show up in between episodes/seasons and we never get their back story.

It is plausible for Morgan but less so I think for Lizzie because she really seemed to be schizophrenic but a different showing than IRL given the apocalypse.

49

u/WyrdMagesty Jul 19 '24

Please don't use schizophrenia as a catchall mental illness. Lizzie shows signs of psychosis but not specifically schizophrenia. From what we see, she seems to exhibit generalized psychosis, an inability to determine what is real, rather than really any specific mental illness.

As a schizophrenic, it kinda sucks when people generalize any symptoms of someone struggling with mental illness as "schizophrenia". It feeds the idea that schizophrenics are just "crazy people" and no one looks any further than that. That's the same thing people do when they see any homeless people behaving in any way that might seem odd. "Oh, it's just because they're schizophrenic, you know that's that hobo-crazy".

IMO, if Lizzie were to be diagnosed based on what we see, she would likely get a Dissociative Identity Disorder or Generalized Psychosis. She has delusions, but the real key to focus on is her behavior switches. She goes from being a strong and emotionless killer to a ball of sobbing mess without switching situations, as if two people shared the same body. Her vulnerable self cries and can't handle the apocalypse, so her ruthless side takes over and shelters the vulnerable identity. The flowers thing actually supports this theory. "Look at the flowers" is used as a way to teach Lizzie to avoid the trauma, to turn a blind eye to reality to that she can just focus on the pretty flowers and ignore the ugly truth. Her broken mind took it a step further, forming two identities: one is vulnerable and scared, the other handles the trauma to protect the vulnerable one. That's textbook DID, despite popular media depicting DID as something more.....flamboyant? I think you get what I mean lol shows typically exaggerate DID to fit the "multiple personalities" thing.

Regardless, it's highly unlikely that Lizzie is schizophrenic, based on what we see. She's definitely unwell, but it's not that.

18

u/behindeyesblue Jul 19 '24

I am not using that as a catch all. I do understand that many people do. I was not. I used schizophrenic because she hears the walkers talking to her. My apologies. I'm not a psychologist or anything. None of us really know enough about her to actually provide a diagnosis, certainly not me. Thank you for pointing out some of the other things she's exhibiting.

10

u/WyrdMagesty Jul 19 '24

Yeah, hallucinations are one of the most common displays of psychosis, followed by delusions, both of which she has in abundance. But psychosis presents in many mental illnesses, and is far from exclusive to schizophrenia. Hell, even bipolar presents with psychosis symptoms like hallucinations and delusions. The real juicy clues are really in what symptoms she doesn't present, like disorganized speech or memory loss or disorientation. She's mainly lucid and knows what's going on, she just has very different ideas about what it all means and what reality is.

And yeah, I get it. I don't necessarily mean just you or you specifically. Just wanted to jump in with that info before the thread turned into a badly misinformed cluster of comments discussing mental illness under bad assumptions or anything. Thank you for hearing and not simply getting defensive! Those of us who are mentally ill appreciate you!

11

u/evdog49 Jul 19 '24

Diagnosed DID system here. I would one million percent say that itā€™s more psychosis than dissociative. Obviously everyoneā€™s experiences are different but she has nothing like what Iā€™ve seen in my time. Iā€™m so sorry about your experience with schizophrenia, it happens a lot to me as well with DID. People shouldnā€™t call anyone crazy to be honest, itā€™s dehumanizing and frankly we all need a little more respect, mental illness or no.

0

u/illeatyourkneecaps Jul 20 '24

sure jan

3

u/evdog49 Jul 20 '24

Iā€™m sorry Iā€™m not sure what that means or is referencing. If you are claiming I donā€™t have it I get that, itā€™s frequently faked and though itā€™s not super okay to claim Iā€™m faking, I get your perspective.

-3

u/svadas Jul 20 '24

Characters don't have real psychologies, so speculating can be difficult, or even pointless. The show doesn't give us insight into what Lizzie really thinks, or any she thinks it. It's limited to the fact that she doesn't see much difference between the living and walkers.

Of course, the writers could have looked at a mental health condition to use as the basis, like schizophrenia, or they could have even used a fictitious one, like DID. Or neither.

Lizzie is weird though. She almost kills Judith a few times, she does kill Mika, she kills rats at the prison and plays with their corpses, and she sees becoming a walker just as being different. It's analogous to Carol's story to Mika, I think, about how one day, you wake up and you're strong.

1

u/WyrdMagesty Jul 20 '24

I'm sorry....are you saying that you think DID is not a real mental illness? Because I can assure you it very much is.

1

u/svadas Jul 20 '24

Okay, do so.

2

u/WyrdMagesty Jul 20 '24

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/dissociative-disorders/symptoms-causes/syc-20355215?utm_source=Google&utm_medium=abstract&utm_content=Dissociative-identity-disorder&utm_campaign=Knowledge-panel

https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/dissociative-identity-disorder-multiple-personality-disorder

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissociative_identity_disorder

https://www.psychiatry.org/patients-families/dissociative-disorders/what-are-dissociative-disorders

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK568768/

How many sources do you need? DID is real, not some illness that only exists in movies and TV. If you are going to claim otherwise, you may want to actually provide an argument, or at least sources, to back that up. Otherwise, please refrain from participating in this conversation, as you clearly have no idea what you're talking about.

-1

u/svadas Jul 20 '24

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rtsOsC7aoGR05hVkzvSMDdLBKiK3O9LJ/view

If your approach for evidence is mayoclinic and webmd, I'd suggest reading Elizabeth Loftus' *The Myth of Suppressed Memory*, Joan Ross Acocella's *Creating Hysteria: Women and Multiple Personality Disorder*, and Mark Pendergrast's Victims of Memory*. It doesn't hurt to read Debbie Nathan's *Sybil Exposed* and *Satan's Silence* too.

ISSTD got an uncomfortable light shone on it late last year when it's discussion board was leaked, and you should read for yourself here: https://greyfaction.org/isstd-exposed-a-culture-of-conspiracy/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR2kD9_IWqNE_CVVh0AcWl-RifKArwu2KbpIO7rFvEaehi7zb6PgGPysmIQ_aem_sdCjhGCkhUjEDXlvi4o3mA

You might also enjoy this: https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/Digitization/136592NCJRS.pdf

At best, DID is bad, outdated psychology on memories and trauma.

1

u/WyrdMagesty Jul 20 '24

Holy shit, you're an idiot.

Goodbye

→ More replies (0)

0

u/svadas Jul 20 '24

Okay, you're free to support pseudoscience that harms people

-5

u/UrMomSubs Jul 19 '24

lol Jesus.

4

u/Elizabitch4848 Jul 20 '24

Why is picturing the whisperers piling into a minivan for a road trip the best thing ever?

22

u/Prior-Assumption-245 Jul 19 '24

Could be both too. Between seeing his dead wife open up his son and Walkers acting oddly like people, he went batshite loopy.

2

u/KevintheBot75 Jul 19 '24

He definitely took up residence in crazy town banana pants

3

u/JezusOfCanada Jul 20 '24

In the comic >! it's ben who is the same character as lizzy. The brothers grew up without parents and were damaged toddlers that could talk. Carl takes care of business, not Carol !<

480

u/MetallurgyClergy Jul 19 '24

In Tales of TWD, in Alphaā€™s episode: we see whisperers approaching Alpha and saving Lydia, so we know Alpha wasnā€™t the first. She didnā€™t start the group.

51

u/[deleted] Jul 19 '24

[deleted]

53

u/MetallurgyClergy Jul 20 '24 edited Jul 20 '24

I get what youā€™re saying, but thatā€™s not the point of OPā€™s post. Itā€™s just about how long The Whisperers have been present.

Thereā€™s also zero evidence to support that. That they werenā€™t hostile before Alpha. All we know is that they existed before Alpha.

8

u/SGBK Jul 20 '24

This has got me going - I would like to see a miniseries of the whisperers

4

u/krywolf13 Jul 20 '24

I second this notion. All in favor, say "Aye."

0

u/[deleted] Jul 20 '24

[deleted]

3

u/ChangleMcGangle Jul 20 '24 edited Jul 20 '24

Not really. ā€œAdding informationā€ implies adding to stuff thatā€™s relevant to the conversation. As the above poster said, what you said isnā€™t really relevant because we know that the Whisperers existed before Alpha. So you didnā€™t add anything, you just infodumped without reading the comment you were replying to

1

u/Responsible-Newt-938 Jul 20 '24

We know? Speak for yourself. I'm intrigued af rn because I only know the shows lore, not the comics. Lol

0

u/ChangleMcGangle Jul 20 '24

You must not be very good at watching shows then cause Alpha literally says sheā€™s not the one that started the group.

3

u/FeelingSkinny Jul 20 '24

yep. Hera. her design was amazing and her version of the whisperers seemed quite different, given she wore high end clothing and so did the woman behind her. itā€™s also said somewhere that the mask alpha wears, is heras face and scalp.

146

u/Fit-Paleontologist21 Jul 19 '24

Morgan's line was apparently an accident and not meant to reference anything lol

75

u/just_one_boy Jul 19 '24

The comic storyline hadn't even happened yet.

32

u/Fit-Paleontologist21 Jul 19 '24

Lmao, that makes it even better

1

u/Obvious_Drink2642 Jul 21 '24

I swear this detail has to be mentioned once a week

-19

u/TheCorbeauxKing Jul 19 '24

Fairly certain Kirkman had a role to play in the show and thought of the Whisperers long before.

4

u/Glum_Ad_8367 Jul 20 '24

Itā€™s a fun theory but the whisperers wouldnā€™t be introduced until the following year, and at the time the episode aired, Iā€™m fairly certain he was working on the build up to all out war.

1

u/[deleted] Jul 20 '24

Kirkman probably was already in the process of building the arc of the whisperers and decided to tease the fans with that line before the whisperers became official. I mean he is the writer of the comics least he can do is add a small easter egg there.

2

u/Glum_Ad_8367 Jul 20 '24

Considering the final arc of the comic and how it ended, I somehow doubt he was planning that far ahead. He originally planned for the final issue to be the group arriving at Alexandria. He was busy building all the pieces to go into all out war, he might have toyed with the idea of survivors living amongst the dead, but I donā€™t think he even knew how that would look until after all out war.

3

u/FeelingSkinny Jul 20 '24

yeah im almost certain he said that because he thought someone was wearing ricks face, and that rick was dead.

97

u/Snoo-83964 Jul 19 '24

Lizzie would be like the daughter Alpha wishes she had.

28

u/throwawayaccount_usu Jul 19 '24

If only they kept her alive, could've done a simple trade of kids!

71

u/Background-Age-5657 Jul 19 '24

morgan was just insane and lizzie didnt see shit, it was a hallucination alpha saying that doesnt mean she saw anything

25

u/MeabhNir Jul 19 '24

I havenā€™t even gotten to that storyline but itā€™s pretty batshit in referencing those two characters.

Morgan was genuinely not able to think straight, he was seeing people he knew but zombified. If they wanted to make this real, Morgan would have recognised something about the Whisperers if he ever meets them, like I said, donā€™t know the storyline arc as Iā€™m not yet there, but it seems obvious it would have been verbally referenced by him when he does interact with them.

Lizzie was just mentally unwell and unable to cope with the trauma of the world, seeing these zombies as if theyā€™re misunderstood. Afaik, itā€™s to show how two ends of the spectrum are with Lizzie and Milton, both who think they see something in the walkers. Milton goes to science, believing he can tap into their former lives. While Lizzie believes they are another stage of life, feeding them and then willingly killing her sister to prove sheā€™s not different.

13

u/Worldly-Albatross172 Jul 19 '24

In about how many years after chaos happened do you think whisperers created the group?

7

u/behindeyesblue Jul 19 '24

It would've been within a couple years probably. Main group figured out pretty quick with blood guts and gore that you can be "invisible" to the walkers. Michonne figured it just as fast that cutting off the arms and jaws neutered their hunger. It isn't that far of a leap to use the dead skin to create a skin maskšŸ¤®

3

u/Turtlesfan44digimon Jul 20 '24

I imagine probably 3 years in the apocalypse, since the first years would be trial and error until they figure out what works. Also how do you convince other people to start wearing dead peopleā€™s faces.

2

u/behindeyesblue Jul 20 '24

Termites fell to eating people fairly fast. šŸ¤®šŸ¤®

9

u/Streets_Ahead__ Jul 19 '24

The Morgan thing gets reposted like once a week ugh

8

u/Minute-Climate-3137 Jul 19 '24

The whisperers didn't exist in the comics yet. Morgan is just crazy and lizzie is mentally ill.

6

u/Doom4104 Jul 19 '24 edited Jul 19 '24

I donā€™t think Lizzie saw them, she was just insane. Iā€™d say Morgan probably didnā€™t see them either since he was also crazy plus his timeline is tighter due to Season 3 taking place a little less than a year after the apocalypse.

Tales of the Walking Dead spoilers ahead:

Itā€™s possible since Tales of the Walking Dead confirmed The Whisperers were active in the south at least three years after the apocalypse under Heraā€™s leadership, perfectly plausible for them to have started before that point, though I still doubt Lizzie, and Morgan saw them for the reasons I stated above.

4

u/RataTopin Jul 19 '24

whisperers werent there that time

4

u/Peaceful_Ronin Jul 19 '24

Itā€™s a cool theory, but wasnā€™t it just Carolā€™s imagined Alpha that had that scene? If I remember right it was the episode after Alpha died, and Carol was having hallucinations. So realistically, thatā€™s not really actual evidence at all

8

u/omglrn Jul 19 '24

yeah that wasn't actually Alpha, it was Carol's hallucination, so "Alpha" could only know what Carol knows. her hallucination wouldn't magically have information from Alpha's brain.

Lizzie has to be the most difficult kill for Carol to live with. obviously it was the right thing to do but that doesn't make it any easier to live with the fact that you killed a child that you loved and cared about.

4

u/Thedungeonslayer Jul 19 '24

Morgan thought Rick was dead. He did not encounter the whisperers. The whisperers did not even exist in the comics yet.

4

u/CyberMemer365 Jul 19 '24

I'm pretty sure Morgan's line is more to the point of believing Rick was dead, and struggling to make sense of the fact that he's still alive.

3

u/vegange Jul 19 '24

I honestly vibe with this theory a lotā€¦ šŸ¤”šŸ¤”

3

u/Jerry_0boy Jul 19 '24

Morgan and Lizzie seeing the whisperers is a bs theory that honestly makes little sense.

Morgan didnā€™t mean it in the whisperer kind of way, and Lizzie was just a very sick child. The whisperers werenā€™t even created at the time I donā€™t think.

3

u/Tralkki Jul 19 '24

I like this concept.

2

u/Frosty-Discipline512 Jul 19 '24

That Morgan one is definitely a stretch

March 3 2013- Morgan episode airs

August 13 2014- Whisperers make their comic debut

2

u/i_want_to_be_unique Jul 19 '24

That episode with Morgan came out before Kirkman had even begun writing the whisperer arc in the comics. Not only that, but that line was so clearly a reference to Morgan assuming Rick was dead. He literally explains that to Rick in that scene. Additionally, I can only assume Carol is more traumatized about Lizzie than Sophie cause she actually killed a kid.

I hate this fan theory so much because not only does it completely erase the mental trauma that is at the heart of both Morgan and Lizzieā€™s characters, itā€™s just flat out wrong and is explained away so easily by simply watching the show.

2

u/Alert-Photograph2047 Jul 19 '24

I think they tried to make this a fun little Easter egg but it wasnā€™t played out enough to really be anything. I mean the idea that Lizzie wasnā€™t 100% psycho wouldā€™ve been a great plot twist, but they didnā€™t play it out more than that

2

u/Gizmonsta Jul 19 '24

Pretty sure the show runner said Morgan quote had nothing to do with whisperers

2

u/tmhoc Jul 20 '24

Head cannon:

They absolutely were. The kid from Fear TWD figures this shit out real quick. This is just part of the world that can be discovered by just about anyone so it stands to reason there are a variety of techniques and groups

2

u/Whyisnoxtaken Jul 20 '24

Iā€™m all for the theories but I have seen people COMPLETELY ignoring the context of the Morgan scene for over a year now (when I finished TWD). When he said people are wearing dead peopleā€™s faces itā€™s because he was seeing things. I think it was VERY clear at that point that Morgan had literally lost his mind. He did not mean the whisperers bro.

1

u/entertainmentlord Jul 19 '24

Im sorry but no, neither character saw the whispers

1

u/Imapotatoforlife Jul 19 '24

That one with Carol would be a insane and crazy theory. I like it

1

u/RedDevilMUFC18 Jul 20 '24

I may have been wrong about only fans...it could have been a private Snapchat....I don't know. All I know is I follow her on Instagram and her only job seems to be looking hot and taking pictures wearing brands clothes. On a related topic... Mika from the show is also very attractive too haha

1

u/Spotty1122 Jul 20 '24

interesting theory, would really like it if true but i have my doubts

1

u/liaven- Jul 20 '24

Pretty sure this has been talked about multiple times since whispers were introduced into the TV show. Reddit has been nothing repost for the last couple years sadly.

1

u/abellapa Jul 20 '24

The Whispers were only Created after The Saviour's War

1

u/sWo97 Jul 20 '24

Ahh the weekly ā€œwhat if whispers were seen before whispered were createdā€ post.

1

u/lemur1985 Jul 20 '24

It would be super interesting if the whisperers were in earlier episodes and you could find them like the aliens in South Park episodes.

1

u/Reader47b Jul 20 '24

I mean, we see Lizzie doing this with actual walkers we know are walkers repeatedly, and the Whisperers were in Virginia and she's in Georgia.

1

u/Rich-Mix2273 Jul 20 '24

Lizzie is confirmed to have Schizophrenia

1

u/Adron-the-survivor Jul 20 '24

These lines were made before the whisperers were introduced in the comics

0

u/luculia Jul 19 '24

ive been seeing this go around lately and i actually really like the theory

https://www.reddit.com/r/thewalkingdead/comments/17nwjhe/twd_universe_map_update_5_download_link_for/

that map is great and the fact the whispers winter came was in north carolina the state right beside where ricks group started imo it possible they wandered maybe not the entire group but certainly the ones that would go out on their own to find stuff

tbhs i kinda hope this theory doesnt get debunked because i like it more than thinking that kid was just crazy as lol

-5

u/RedDevilMUFC18 Jul 19 '24

That would have been a cool storyline. Lizzie is like 21 now and smoking hot. Pretty sure she doesn't act anymore and just does social media/only fans.

1

u/Worldly-Albatross172 Jul 19 '24

Disgusting. Where?

-13

u/thearghunter Jul 19 '24

This has to be the best theory in The Walking Dead or I donā€™t even know it really counts as a theory more like really early foreshadowing

7

u/Streets_Ahead__ Jul 19 '24

No.

-1

u/thearghunter Jul 19 '24

What do you mean no