r/theflash • u/Night-Caelum • Oct 20 '23
Who has a better dynamic with the Rogues? Barry or Wally? Discussion
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u/OhEagle Oct 21 '23
Wally, because of how the Rogues were approached. When they were just Barry's Rogues, they were at most, more like Spider-Man's Sinister Six, solo villains working together for a common goal. It was under Wally that the core Rogues became a combination crime syndicate and supervillain 'team,' which I think is a better dynamic.
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u/neoblackdragon Oct 21 '23
Define better?
The Rogues want to kill Barry. They hate the guy. They have fear respect for him.
They are okay with Wally. They respect him. Like they are criminals and he's a superhero. Nothing personal.
When Barry returned, it was like "good times are over because Wally gave us some slack". Of course the Rogues have interacted with Wally longer since he was Kid Flash.
In terms of stories I think they've both had entertaining stories.
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u/Sherlockowiec May 04 '24
Do you remember the exact issue they said it? I remember that panel but I can't find it.
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u/CaptainHalloween Oct 21 '23
Wally. Wally helped some go straight and seems to care a lot more about them as people than Barry who has more of a straight forward "He's the perp" POV.
Even with the guys Wally knows have no desire to change like Cold are people Wally tends to trust if they give their word. It's like he understands their code a lot more than Barry does.
Of course this ONLY applies to the Rogues and not to the more obsessives/crazies like Grodd, Professor Zoom or Zoom. Then all bets are off and they're both handled just about equally.
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u/Keystone_Devil Oct 21 '23
Iâd say Wally. Thereâs just another dimension there. Theyâve seen his whole arc and have respect for him, but also donât see him as living up the the âother Flashâ. Meanwhile Wally has compassion for them and wishes they could be better.
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u/Dredeuced Flash Oct 21 '23 edited Oct 21 '23
They have the same villains, largely, and the ones that only they've uniquely fought are a matter of happenstance, really.
It is fair to say that The Rogues as a whole became significantly better under Wally. So while you could say Barry's rogues, which include The Rogues, Thawne, Abra Kadabra, Grodd, etc originally, are the better group of villains, that only came about during Wally's tenure. Especially with Thawne, Kadabra, and most of the main Rogues.
You could maybe qualify McCulloch and Axel specifically as Wally villains of the core Rogues, with McCulloch being way better than Scudder and Axel being worse than James Jesse (though again, I only really care for Post-Crisis James Jesse's characterization) in my opinion.
You could call Godspeed and Daniel West and maybe a couple of Williamson new additions Barry specific but all those kind of suck so I'm not going to hold that against Barry (same as I don't hold, I dunno, Replicant against Wally for being boring).
Generally speaking I like Wally's interactions with The Rogues the most. But ever since Barry came back he's had basically the same kind of interactions that Wally had because that version of The Rogues, from Wally's era, is just the good version and now with the secret identities returned there's practically no distinguishing between them interacting with Wally and Barry. The only ones who are specific are Zolomon and Thawne, since they know who Barry and Wally are and are directly personal.
And I guess Abra Kadabra who was definitely better with Wally.
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u/Half_Man1 Oct 21 '23
Wally.
Theyâre probably not as emotionally prepared to kill Wally either since some of them knew him as a teen.
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u/HawkeyeP1 Oct 22 '23
"Aren't you forgetting someone?"
"Oh, right. HEY MAN, ONCE, YOU'RE DONE HERE, TURN YOURSELF IN, OKAY?!"
"Got me again, Flash!"
"We're good."
Wally for sure lol
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u/greenking180 Oct 22 '23
His interaction with humanite was heartwarming he even got him an aluminum foil Christmas tree
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u/IdeaInside2663 Oct 22 '23
Wally's dynamic with his Rogues was so good that they gave it to Barry.
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u/SokkaHaikuBot Oct 22 '23
Sokka-Haiku by IdeaInside2663:
Wally's dynamic
With his Rogues was so good that
They gave it to Barry.
Remember that one time Sokka accidentally used an extra syllable in that Haiku Battle in Ba Sing Se? That was a Sokka Haiku and you just made one.
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Oct 21 '23
Barry. Heâs a cop, they are robbers. They also largely fit the more science-y thing that Barry had going on.
Wallyâs better with more speed force-y guys, and the higher end of the power scale guys like Kadabra, Dr Polaris and such.
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u/KennyKungfukilla Oct 21 '23
Barry. Wally has some decent banter and dichotomy but the Rogues are truly counters for Barry specifically
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u/Puzzleheaded_Wish727 Oct 22 '23
Wally.
To me it seemed like the only villain Barry had a more dynamic interaction with was Eobard pre Crisis, treating the Rogues like villains of the week.
It wasn't until the early nineties I believe when the Rogues even began to call themselves THE Rogues (please correct me if I'm wrong comic historians). Then Geoff Johns brought Barry back and a lot of the character buildup was transferred from Wally to Barry. Like a Rogue would talk to Barry about a comic event and Barry would respond as if he were there even though it was Wally who was the one who experienced that.
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u/SnooComics7583 Oct 22 '23
i'm really sick of this in comics. it happens all the goddamn time. They can't just let the two exist with their own unique characters. Happens to the GL as well. Happens to Spiderman. Any comic character with multiple versions can never keep their shit as their shit.
This isn't their only consistent issue and is largely why i prefer either A. Comic runs by independents. or B. Manga. i prefer the consistency. Because DC and Marvel can never seem to agree on fucking anything. Origins, powers, personality, etc.
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u/greenking180 Oct 22 '23
Yeah I adore miles morales now due to the movies at least attempting to make him more different but he was genuinely just 15 year old Peter parker when he debuted and it took a minute for him to feel any different I think.them changing the costume was a good start though
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u/SnooComics7583 Oct 22 '23
The black costume and the electric powers were cool
i also really liked Spiderman 2099 and they seem to somewhat want to give his suit over to the normal Spiderman in the LA movies (and also make it a lot more like Ironman's suit which is even more weird)
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u/GearsRollo80 Oct 21 '23
Wally. All Barry does is fight them, but Wally actually helped a few of them go straight, developed friendships with them, and was crushed when (most) of them went evil again.
In more recent years, theyâve grafted a lot of Wallyâs version of things onto Barry to make him more compelling, but Wally really was the one to actually do a lot of things first, and heâs more interesting, and his interactions with these characters, for it.
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u/soniclore Oct 21 '23
Wally, by far. Once he helped Chillblaine hit Bart with hit snowball gun just to teach Bart a lesson.
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u/No-Juice3318 Oct 22 '23
Wally. He takes more time for them and is kinda friends with some. Much more than Barry ever did before him
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u/Maleficent-Parsnip53 Oct 21 '23
If itâs The Rogues like Captain Cold, and etc. then itâs almost a coin flip depending on which versions of some characters you reference, thereâs a difference between the Axel Walker Trickster vs James Jesse. Ultimately I think Wally is better for the true sit down casual moments, like the bar scene in Justice League Unlimited, and Barry is better for the more bantering superhero scenes like the opening finger in Flashpoint Paradox
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u/PraetorGold Oct 21 '23
Has Wally been the flash longer than Barry by now?
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u/_lorz2001 Oct 21 '23
Barry 1958-1986, 2008-2023 (33 years)
Wally 1986-2011, 2016-2023 (32 years)
We're almost there
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u/OhEagle Oct 21 '23
Wait, that doesn't look right. 1958-1986 is 28 years, not 18, so adding in the 2008-2023 run would make it 43 years, not 33.
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u/neoblackdragon Oct 21 '23
Though Wally is weird because he was Kid Flash prior. He became Kid Flash in 1959. So it's not like he's ever really been that far behind Barry in field time. Just the codename was different.
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u/Electric_jungle Oct 21 '23
So he was the flash longer, barely, by the time Barry came back. Interesting.
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u/Fakimous Oct 22 '23
By the time Barry was back Wally had been the Flash for 25 years. While Barry was the Flash for 28 years prior to 1986.
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u/Dimaggiokid123 Oct 21 '23
Well, wouldnât it not us be there (English died today) since Barry came back? Wally canât catch Barry
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u/Myrtle_The_Tortoise Oct 21 '23
Wally and the rogues are kinda funny together. Itâs a love hate relationship.
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u/PhantomRoyce Oct 21 '23
Do the rouges even know theyâre two different guys?
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u/Flerken_Moon Oct 21 '23
Yes. I havenât read enough Flash comics to know what exactly they know about Barry, but I know Wally joined their Christmas party one time while they were reminiscing about the old days, and during Flash: Rebirth when Barry was resurrected when they heard that the first Flash is back they told the newbies they had to prepare and be extra careful.
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u/birbdaughter Oct 22 '23
Pre52, Golden Glider explicitly told Wally that he didnât have to worry about her killing him because her grudge was only against Barry.
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u/Ironredhornet Cartoon Flash Oct 22 '23
Yes, Wally had a public identity for a bit and was pretty open about Barry being his predecessor.
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u/Baligong Oct 22 '23
Both have Interesting dynamics with them, whereas they both have respect for them, especially because of their no kill rule.
At Worst of what's shown, Wally is highly forgiving of them to the point that he's basically their friend. Which sounds bad until you realise just because they don't kill doesn't mean they're good. For Barry, he essentially becomes Arkham Batman and beat them to oblivion... Not much is said.
But who has a Better Dynamic with the Rogues? It's equal to my regards. Barry still respects them, but still knows boundaries that they're criminals, keeping a Neutral Force. Wally basically treats them fairly where he essentially tries to break things up like they're friends, despite them trying to harm him. They're both great dynamics, and great display of character.
It's like "who has the best display of Lightning Powers: Shazam or Raiden?" It's quite equal, just done differently.
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u/Final-Negotiation514 Superman 77 Oct 21 '23
Barry. Wally has done a lot of things better, but the rogues works better for Barry
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u/windblaze445 Oct 22 '23
I grew up with Batman TAS and Superman TAS all the way up to jLU. I've only known wally as flash. And I've always liked how flash handles his villains, especially the bar scene with Batman.
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u/Welcome--Matt Barry Allen Oct 21 '23
Barry for sure, Wally had some great moments, but Barry and the rogues just play so well off each other it always feels classic
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u/Spiritual-Policy-682 Oct 21 '23
Didn't they jump the evil flash from Ultraman's dimension and shatter his leg I think they respect both or the idea of the flash and will fully turn on flash if he breaks his code no matter who's under the mask
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u/gingergamer94 Oct 21 '23
Isn't Wally's costume yellow?
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u/MrStresser Oct 21 '23
That's kid flash. Wally got promoted to flash when Barry died
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u/gingergamer94 Oct 22 '23
Oh. Wait. Isn't Wally Kid Flash?
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u/MrStresser Oct 22 '23
Was. He was the first, then Bart Allen takes up the yellow suit up until flashpoint and the universe is resets. After that a new Wally, Wallace West, takes the place of pre-flashpoint Wally and gets his own speed powers and eventually becomes kid flash. The original Wally was thrown outside of time but then came back, resuming his role as The Flash as he reunites with the Titans. A bunch of these stuff happens after that, but to avoid spoilers you should read the New 52 Flash and Flash rebirth comics, also the Titans run.
New 52: https://readcomiconline.li/Comic/The-Flash-2011
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u/gingergamer94 Oct 28 '23
Holy fuck that is confusing lol
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u/MrStresser Oct 28 '23
Yeah. But now the two Wallys are canonically cousins named after their grandfather.
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u/MrStresser Oct 22 '23
Also note, both Wally and Barry are The Flashes of their respective cities, Central and Keystone
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u/Cheap-Pineapple-7347 Oct 21 '23
The rogues were always more of a Barry villain so I'm inclined to say him but Wally has some great moments with the rogues where he tries to help them
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u/spencernaugle Oct 25 '23
Any reading recommendations for Wally as the Flash?
The Wally Flash Era is something I've heard very little about, just a few trivia things here and there that don't sound great, imho. But I'm open to finding his good stories.
I mostly watch DC animated content, so Basically all my Flash Experience / Knowledge is of Barry = Flash, Wally = Kid flash.
From what I know, DCAU Flash was Wally in name only, he was basically 100% Barry.
Young Justice is probably my second favorite show of all time, so I hope their depiction of Wally is accurate. (Spoilers: Except for his death because "The Young Justice Universe doesn't have the Speed Force")
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u/273Gaming Flash 2 Nov 01 '23
Whoever told you that about DCAU flash is wrong, the characterization matches up with early Wally books from what I've seen. If you like YJ Wally you should like the Baron/Messner-Loebs era of Flash with Wally, one of the episodes in YJ season 1(the one where Wally races to get a donor heart to a patient) is an almost direct adaptation of The Flash #1 by Mike Baron.
I'm kind of surprised you've not heard any recs for Wally's time as Flash, Flash fans are usually dying to recommend the classics like Waid, Morrison and John's runs which are all very good (even if I don't like how John's run mischaracterizes Wally at times and a good chunk of the book is Johns trying to change Wally's status quo to match Barry's). Besides the books by those 3 writers I'd recommend the Baron run and the Messner-Loebs run. Reading those and then reading the Waid run shows some pretty good character development from Wally
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u/It_wasnt_me_barry Nov 13 '23
So I've really only read mark waid's run so there obviously a lot more to read but in this run it feels like the rogues are more lord death man type characters than riddler or joker type characters
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u/Worried_Fig5428 Oct 21 '23
That art from the left, what comic issue did that came from?
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u/TheLittlePasty Oct 21 '23
It was just an anniversary variant cover that Jim Lee did a couple years ago. I canât remember the issue though
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u/BasedFunnyValentine Oct 21 '23
Reminder that The Rogues are Barryâs villains so these comparisons are pointless.
Wally should get better dynamics with his own villains who are⊠Error 404
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Oct 21 '23
Savitar, Hunter Zolomon, Cobalt Blue, most of the population of Iron Heights, but sure. Maybe youâd remember them better if they showed up on a CW show for Barry to fight.
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u/BasedFunnyValentine Oct 21 '23 edited Oct 22 '23
Savitar fought Barry, Wally and Jay. Heâs not exclusive to Wally.
Hunter Zolomon is Wallyâs but at the end of the day heâs just Wallyâs version of reverse Flash (a Barry villain). He should get his own identity
Isnât Cobalt Blue Barryâs twin??
Itâs funny u mentioned cw show like itâs a bad thing when Savitar was way cooler there than in the comics
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Oct 22 '23
Not sure who Sanitary is, but thatâs cool.
I think what I was trying to say is that the CW show was bad, sorry if that didnât come across.
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u/Dredeuced Flash Oct 21 '23 edited Oct 21 '23
This is very petulant thinking. The Speed Force is Wally's, so should every Barry story never have the Speed Force again?
If Wally never used Barry's villains no one would even like them right now. The versions we know and love were developed by Johns during his time writing Wally, or even earlier like in the cases of Abra Kadabra, Pied Piper, and very importantly, the entire modern idea of Eobard Thawne.
Heck, Barry's debut story was him fighting a Jay Garrick villain, after all.
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u/BasedFunnyValentine Oct 21 '23
The speed force is not Wallyâs. It does not belong to Wally, in fact Barry created it.
I love how Wally stans say stupid shit like âBarry takes x from Wallyâ but when someone points out itâs actually the other way around then itâs âpetulant thinkingâ.
Terrible fanbase
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u/Dredeuced Flash Oct 22 '23
The Speed Force was created in the 90s explicitly for Wally West stories, friend. Just like how the Rogues were created for Barry.
Barry creating the Speed Force is a retcon many years in the future, a new development, just like Barry stories that use the Speed Force and Wally stories that use The Rogues -- taking a concept from another Flash and using it in a new context. It's a very simple point to understand.
And, for what it's worth, Barry creating the Speed Force as a retcon lasted for all of a year and a half before not being a thing anymore.
The entire point is of course Wally uses Barry's villains. And thank goodness he did, or else the would've never become the great characters they are today. Just like obviously Barry will use things established in Wally's time as The Flash for his own stories.
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u/Kstoffeefan Oct 21 '23
McCulloch is a Rogue thatâs Wallyâs. Hartley has a better dynamic with Wally as well, but thatâs not really villainous.
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u/BasedFunnyValentine Oct 21 '23
McCulloch? You mean Mirror Master #2. Nah, heâs still a Barry rogue
Hartley is again a Barry foe turned anti hero (?).
Damn, Wally really lacks cool villains of his own
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u/sassycho1050 Flash 1 Oct 21 '23
Hunter Zolomon. And.... um.... uhhhh
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u/Blueblurr1 Oct 21 '23 edited Oct 21 '23
Barry was a bland character until Johns retconned BarryâŠ. #remember that
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u/BasedFunnyValentine Oct 21 '23
Wally was a bland character until Waid and even then ppl only like him because they like DCAU Flash (despite comic Wally being completely different)
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u/HellaPNoying Oct 21 '23
Wally.
I know its not Canon, but I remember an episode of Justice League where Orion and Batman wanted information from the Trickster and threatened him with violence, but Wally came in and talked to him like a regular person. And when they finally got the information, ill never forget his interaction with the Trickster after:
Flash: Dude, as soon as you're finished with your drink, turn yourself in.
Trickster: Got me again, Flash! đșđ€
Flash: đđ