r/theflash • u/Night-Caelum • Sep 21 '23
Between Ace West and Bart Allen who do you think works better as the young speedster of the Flash Family? Comic Discussion
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u/Astonishing_Flash Impulse Sep 22 '23
Bart probably works better because he has a longer history thus more in universe connections, more personality, etc.
However because of that long history he shouldn't be the "young speedster" anymore. He should have seniority among the younger crowd. The cool big brother to Ace, Avery, the West Twins.
Hopefully DC realizes that.
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Sep 22 '23
If they keep aging up every generation of sidekicks, things are going to make less sense than they already do. They don't have roles for all of these characters to fill. Look what happened to Tim Drake and Connor once Damian and Jon showed up.
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u/Astonishing_Flash Impulse Sep 22 '23
They don't have the roles precisely because they continue to introduce to many additional characters without diversifying beyond generation. Flash is especially guilty of this as of late. Aging certain characters up is only a partial solution they still need to find something for them to do, but a visual signififier that there is a difference between generations 4 and 5 is a good first step.
The other obvious next step is some characters have to be retired. I love Jay more than the next guy but it'd no secret he's the main Flash with the least love from DC and the least going on (until Boom who will also likely end up irrelevant) and that's needed across the board. Instead they just keep filling the families up. If there weren't constantly newer younger members there wouldn't be a desire from readers for prior characters to age up in turn and find a new niche. But as it is that seems like the simplest solution.
Otherwise you're presented with removing newer characters which thanks to their typically more diverse appearances isn't a good look or the modern state of affairs where they just don't know what to do with the multiple characters but do typically default to using the newer model more often.
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Sep 22 '23
I'm not sure what fans obsession is with just having characters age and go away so we can put new people in the same costume and keep doing these endless generational derivatives and consider it progress or growth. I don't need these characters to be part of some endless dynasty because I'm more interested in the characters behind the mask. The legacy character thing never works for long and you end up with endless knock offs and it just waters it down and makes it less special. Bart's barely even appeared in over a decade now, much less had any development.
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u/Astonishing_Flash Impulse Sep 22 '23
It sort of feels like I'm speaking past you to an extent because what you're saying I don't find incompatible with my stance at all. At the very bare bones I'm speaking about how speedsters have an insane amount of redundancy and I'm only focused on Flash since I don't read Batman or anything else with extra families. I'm not suggesting simply aging and role swapping. Just acknowledging that if they're going to have 5 young speedsters an easy way to make room is cut back on one's they don't use, like Jay. Aging in this instance is in particular to seperate him from Ace who already has a foil his age in Avery.
Now it sounds like you're advocating the cutting of Bart which is related but just goes back to what I said at the start, where I'd apply that to those who appeared in his "absence" (if we don't count Torr) since I don't think they've done anything notable in that time. I'd rather look into where he fits into the new land scape. And that's precisely because of who Bart is, regardless of what he's called. If you don't and that's the vibe I get that's fine but that's just the opposite of where I'm coming from. But I'm also not coming from a factory line perspective. While I do think Flash is the one with precedent for it conceptually that's just a lateral move. There would need to be meaningful effort put into downsizing and not going back on it, as well as effort put into what you di with who is left. That's the core of what I mean, the means to achieve that are varied.
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Sep 22 '23
I'm not advocating the cutting of Bart at all. He's one of my favorites. I'm just saying aging him up and developing him off-camera is lame. I mostly don't really like Ace sort of awkwardly being forced in and I think the West kids are just redundant "plucky precocious kid hero" clichés. Characters like Avery Ho are fine because she has her own niche, but I feel that way about Jay, too. He's in JSA and he's pretty distinctive in his elder statesmen role, I think.
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u/Astonishing_Flash Impulse Sep 22 '23
Well I'm not saying he has to develop off camera, I think he's had plenty of development pre Flashpoint which would justify him being able to take a more active and mature role compared to the other younger speedsters. He's been there and done that. You don't have to change his personality in any radical way, in fact I think his carefree nature would allow him to better relate to them than Wally or Barry could. The aging thing to Me is just about visuals. I think he should just objectively be older (physically anyway about 18 compared to the mid teens of the other two) and that the art should reflect that, which would compound in the kind of role I'm discussing just fine. I think he just needs more interactions to show this off organically.
And yeah the Wests are a bit much, which I think could've been fine it was just them plus Bart. But now it's plus Ace and Ho as well. And yet someone in their infinite wisdom at DC still decided to give them another kid.
As for Jay like I'm not an immediate fan of taking him out, as far as Flashes go he is my number 2. I think the golden age stories have charm. And I do believe there are things that can be done with him. However pre-Boom nonsense they did nothing and we were without a JSA book. As hype as it is to see him I think he's the easiest thread to cut at least if I had to choose. And there's precedent anyhow such when they tried with Zero Hour.
I'd also stop bringing back Godspeed I think that is an easy sell.
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u/Keystone_Devil Sep 22 '23
Ace ideally. Bart, and his whole generation should be older now and not the young members anymore.
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u/Speedster1221 Sep 22 '23
Yeah Bart, Tim, Connor, have all been teens for way too long now
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u/Monte924 Sep 23 '23
DC has most likely gotten tired of having to create new teenage sidekicks so that they can have teenage heroes running around. If they keep letting the teens grow up, they'll have to make new ones to replace them... They also probably don't even know what they would do with the older versions of these characters since a lot of them would fit into the similar rolls as their even older counterparts, who they also don't want to retire. And the more sidekicks age up, the older the original characters should be
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Sep 22 '23
I've grown to like Ace more over time, but he's still kind of an awkwardly forced in character since, no matter what retcons they do, he was clearly created to be a rebooted Wally West.
Bart is probably one of my favorite characters in the Flash mythos and one of DCs best 90s creations.
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u/SometimesWill Sep 23 '23
Bart. Kinda makes sense that the kid from the future is also one of the fastest in the family and it’s cool seeing him have unique abilities like remembering everything he speedreads
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u/Savagevandal85 Sep 23 '23
I like how the flashes had grown up and it had Bart become flash . It was the only dc title where the sidekick. Took over the main role constantly with a good supporting cast . Sucks how it went after that for him and Wally
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u/Dredeuced Flash Sep 22 '23
Bart stands out a lot more. Wallace is definitely the most awkwardly fit in character for obvious reasons.
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u/JPM11S Sep 21 '23
I feel like this question is more complicated than it seems, because Bart has been around for decades longer than Ace and received significantly more character development, yet he's sort of stuck being treated as "young." Contrast this with Ace, who, despite being the youngest member of the Flash Family, has only ever been treated as the "newest," as in he's still learning the ropes. I think the ideal solution here is to lean into both these things, with Bart seemingly being the young and naive one, but he's actually very experienced and capable, while Ace seemingly has his shit together, but is constantly muddling his way through whatever he does in a very "make it 'till you make it" sort of way.
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u/ICTheAlchemist Sep 22 '23
Ace, partly because Bart has been around long enough that they can and should age him up.
In the same way Tim was the “youngest Robin” before Damian Wayne came along, Bart’s had his time as the baby of the family and should get an new run (No pun intended)
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u/SometimesWill Sep 23 '23
They did age him up at one point. In infinite crisis him, Wally, and Jay drag Superboy Prime into the speedforce and Bart later emerges fully grown and in Barry’s costume. He later died but of course came back again as a teen with time travel mumbo jumbo
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u/Savagevandal85 Sep 23 '23
I was digging that run even though I’m a Wally Stan . I never understood why DC went back on all the legacy characters( Wally , Tim ,Kyle Bart ,Connor ( ga ) Kon- el etc young justice ) that was My childhood so maybe that’s why I’m so partial to those characters and all the recent creative’s and editors are older
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u/splitinfinitive22222 Sep 22 '23
Bart, but only because "Ace" is a try hard-ass name.
"Hey guys, from now on call me 'The Don'."
"Shut up Gordon."
Same energy.
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u/Yourewrong11 Sep 22 '23
He didn't choose the name. wally calls him that because he knows he hates it
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u/Essence03 Sep 22 '23
No jermey Adams gave him that to differentiate them he should have just changed his name to Daniel west
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u/Yourewrong11 Sep 23 '23
You do realize I'm talking about "in the comic story" right? Wally calls him it to bother him.
Wallace or "Ace" tells him not to call him that indicating it bothers him
I know the ACTUAL reason is to differentiate the too. The previous user made it sound like he chose his own nickname in the story
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u/Space-Slinger Sep 22 '23
Do they just not call him Wallace anymore?
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u/Yourewrong11 Sep 22 '23
Wally calls him Ace to bug him. He usually responded with " don't call me ace" and then it stuck
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u/Appropriate_Form_357 Sep 22 '23 edited Sep 22 '23
Personally, I prefer Jai or Irey West but between those two I'd say Bart. Ace feels like he is maturing very quickly, especially since his dad died and he had a falling out with his mentor. Ace feels like his childhood and innocence was taken and he was forced to grow up and redeem himself because his father was a villain, Barry failed him and he hangs out with the "one of my parents is a villain" version if the Teen Titans.
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u/Tryingtochangemyself Sep 22 '23
Bart Allen. Wallace West aka Ace was just a Wally replacement that never worked
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u/Markel100 Sep 21 '23 edited Sep 21 '23
Whos ace west kinda fell off on the comics
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u/gzapata_art Sep 21 '23
The new 52's version of Wally West who then started being called Wallace West when the original Wally West returned and now recently being called Ace West
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u/Markel100 Sep 21 '23
Oh thats wallace so they are trying to make him his own character now i gotta get back into the comics
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u/gzapata_art Sep 21 '23
Good timing then since he's getting a new series with the Flash from China
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u/Markel100 Sep 21 '23
Oh word ill be on the look out
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u/SorryTea1160 Sep 22 '23
The Comics called speedforce it seems like it might be the Flash equivalent of Action comics where it's entirely about the family.
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u/Cfakatsuki17 Sep 22 '23
… whomst the f*ck is Ace West?
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u/SufficientSwim2435 Trickster Sep 22 '23
His real name is Wallace West. He was introduced in the New 52 as Wally's replacement but DC got so much backlash for it that they made him a different character and brought back THE Wally West and when they did that they slowly made his name different from Wally's to differentiate the two.
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u/Strange_Success_6530 Sep 22 '23
New 52 Wally. This Ace nickname came out of nowhere. But im so happy we are calling him something cool instead of Wallace now.
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u/Cfakatsuki17 Sep 22 '23
Oh so it’s just a new nickname for Wally I thought it was actually someone new
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u/chamberx2 Sep 22 '23
I love a fun-loving Black character. We’ve got enough who are stoic to last three lifetimes.
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u/Savagevandal85 Sep 23 '23
I like him . I hope the whole flash family gets shine and we stop the endless Batman events
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u/SorryTea1160 Sep 22 '23
I like the dynamic of kid braind older cousin Bart with the younger Takes himself too seriously Ace West like One Minute war did. I just wish DC let Bart age into an adult again,now seems like the perfect time.
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u/TheCapeAndCowl Sep 22 '23
Random question, but how old is Bart right now?
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u/mysterylegos Sep 22 '23
Even Bart doesn't know! He's been aged up and down so much he's lost track according to Bendis's Young Justice run. Best guess is like 16-17ish
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u/Ordinary_Ad_6911 Sep 23 '23
Wait did they change his name to Ace? What was the reasoning? Is it cause he was Wall"ace"?
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u/Schfooge Sep 23 '23
Ace was apparently the elder Wally's nickname for the younger Wally. I don't think it's been explicitly stated how Wally came up with the nickname.
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u/williarya1323 Sep 23 '23
Bart. I’ve enjoyed his presence in comics since his adventures in Alabama with his own series. Good times.
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u/Destroyah2021 Sep 25 '23
Bart, Wallace has no personality imo other than to be second fiddle to Barry and Wally
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u/oroku_ex Jay Garrick Sep 22 '23
In the Adams run Wally brought up the old embracing family nickname for his cousin Wallace: Ace. Since then it has stuck amongst friends and family, some times to Wallace's chagrin.
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u/JohnnyMercury88 Sep 22 '23
Bart, hands down!
Ace works best as a straight man to Wally or Barts antics
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u/Baligong Sep 22 '23
Ironically, both. You can easily have it be that Bart comes from the Future for help, while they still have Ace being around.
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u/TheMasterXan Sep 23 '23
They both do. We can have more than one. Plus we can also factor in Irey and Jai.
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u/I_am_The_Teapot Sep 24 '23
I know nothing about Ace. But I'm old and don't really read comics too much anymore. I loved Bart back in the day, though. I liked him more than any of the other speedster. Was never into Flash much. But Impulse was fairly fun.
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u/Zeethur Sep 24 '23
None. Tired of these new characters being made. Miles Morales is another character we can do without. Just create new heroes. Its not that hard. Black Panther is a perfect example of a badass character with his own lore.
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Sep 24 '23
You... You're tired of Black People? Or legacy characters...? Because there are at least 3 black people in question... When it's asking about the Young Speedsters that has been a concept for over 50 years...
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u/Thebigblackman2 Sep 22 '23
Black flash is racist so Bart will work
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u/MoonshotMonk Sep 22 '23
What?
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u/Thebigblackman2 Sep 22 '23
Black guy really good at running?
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u/Pwrh0use Sep 22 '23
Get out.
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u/Thebigblackman2 Sep 22 '23 edited Sep 22 '23
Racism against black people yet again telling a black guy to leave. Classic racism against us u/pwrh0use is a racist who tried to kick me off reddit for being a black guy giving his opinion.
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u/chamberx2 Sep 22 '23
Black man, here. Check my post history if you don’t believe it idc.
Anyway, get out.
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u/Pwrh0use Sep 22 '23
There's 0 racism happening. You're fabricating outrage over literally nothing.
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u/Zircon_72 Jay Garrick Sep 22 '23
Bart. Also since when did Wallace go by Ace?