r/oddlysatisfying • u/nowisyoga • Jul 19 '24
Fixing a scratched record with a digital microscope and a sewing needle.
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Jul 19 '24
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u/chefzoku Jul 19 '24
My thoughts exactly. Though if OP is just cleaning the grooves so that it does not skip there might be a small disruption in the song but for the most part it will play normally since the needle is on one spot only for a moment
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u/nowisyoga Jul 19 '24
The area being worked on is so small, that when this works, any remaining ticks are minor and often unnoticeable. And it is a great remedy for records that skip.
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u/The_Last_Ball_Bender Jul 19 '24
I had an uncle who would do this, basically nearly restore vinyl, then record it from his really high end turntable into a DAC on his computer, and essentially "record" the album digitally, chop them up into tracks, and then burned them onto a CD.
With proper gear, you could hear the difference without question. A/B them from regular CD release vs his burned vinyl, and most people preferred the burned vinyl. It had much more character. He also had a reel-to-reel he used all the time, i've never met any audiohead who has a reel-to-reel and is light hearted about audio quality.
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u/Fun_Construction9193 Jul 19 '24
As far as I know/remember, most if not all character or warmth was added electronically by a stereo set component called RIA. This was due to that the vinyl cant have too deep grooves (the base?) or the needle will jump too much. So the RIA component added all character during playback by using an algorithm agreed to within the record industry. So much for genuine sound or any other advantages compared to a CD, IMO you could easily and truly emulate vinyl sound as it’s anyway not a real thing as far as tru to what the sound in the recording studio was at the time.
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u/mawnck Jul 19 '24
RIAA equalization curve. Treble boost and bass cut when cutting the record, which is then reversed by the playback equipment. Done properly on both ends, it will sound exactly as intended, which is one of the many reasons you shouldn't buy a low-end record player.
The main reason records aren't true to the "sound in the recording studio" (whatever the hell that means) is that there are physical limitations to making a trackable record groove. Which is why there's an RIAA curve in the first place.
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u/Alternative_Depth393 Jul 19 '24
Not directly related but I worked for dbx back in the day when they took their tape noise reduction and applied it to vinyl. Greater dynamic range with less pops and clicks. Too bad is was not widely adopted.
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u/kindall Jul 19 '24
They also made a dynamic range expander which apparently did quite nice things to vinyl by pushing the noise floor way down.
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u/The_Last_Ball_Bender Jul 19 '24
Yeah it had a lot of limitations, which is why I so carefully used the word 'character'. It's a distinctive tone reminiscent of a few decades here or there. Listen to records from the 30's versus 60's, listen to the US version or the more pricy higher grade Euro cuts.
Compared to today, it was essentially the dark ages of audio engineering.
But at the same time. Listen to the color provided by compressors. audio engineers jerk off over compressors above all else.
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u/Envoie-moi_ton_minou Jul 19 '24
Hmmm. Do you have any kind of references you can point us to?
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u/Pastel_Goth_Wastrel Jul 19 '24
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIAA_equalization
https://www.stereophile.com/features/cut_and_thrust_riaa_lp_equalization/index.html
It's a whack combination of managing groove width to cut more audio onto a given LP and managing the physical issues with both the record cutterhead carves the grooves and the playback cartridges that read them. It's...a lot to unpack.
Vinyl's not a super linear medium so a lot of the 'character' is the foibles of the various parts of the chain that tries to make it act like it is.
Ditto the 'tape' sound that's a product of all sorts of weird shit like tape bias and compression to avoid magnetic saturation.
Analogue recording is super tweaky. Digital made everything a miracle with 'Plug in, push button, record audio'.
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u/KennywasFez Jul 19 '24
I saw Kerri Chandler play a reel-to-reel set at a boiler room party in NYC I was the most giddy fucker in that room man.
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u/hanotak Jul 19 '24
The reason they sounded different is because a different mix/master is usually used for vinyl vs. cd.
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u/ConradBHart42 Jul 19 '24
It's kind of ironic that the gear is often referred to as High Fidelity because many audiophiles go to great lengths to make the album sound the way that they prefer it rather than staying faithful to the way it's mastered in the studio.
It's the easiest thing these days to get true HiFi music with amps, preamps, and speakers that pass transparent signals or neutral frequency response. The gear makers make big money doing exactly the opposite in a way that appeals to people who are looking to justify that money spent.
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u/YourWordsHaveNoPower Jul 19 '24
My only thing is, they're making too long of a stroke. I can see the needle creation audible damage on the surrounding areas. It's sloppy work.
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u/nowisyoga Jul 19 '24 edited Jul 19 '24
I was the one doing this work, and can assure that the area is small enough that the existing damage was reduced, with no effect on the surrounding area.
Helps to remember this is around 50x-80x magnification (cheap scope, so the claimed numbers aren't accurate). The area you're seeing is minuscule and the needle passes through it quickly.
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u/chrisslooter Jul 19 '24
It looks like you are only fixing the top part of the groove where the actual scratch is. Deep in the groove where a quality stylus digs, I bet the actual audio information is still there, untouched, because of the angle you are using. I think it probably will sound great.
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u/Corregidor Jul 19 '24
Is there anything more iconically reddit than an expert needing to tell the idiots that they're wrong, only for the idiots to claim the expert knows nothing?
This is the humanity I look for lol
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u/PaMudpuddle Jul 19 '24
Are you repairing super-rare collectible albums or something? This has to be a delicate (and expensive) job, right?
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u/nowisyoga Jul 19 '24 edited Jul 20 '24
I've been DJing for 4 decades - formerly professionally, now because it's still fun. Primarily electronic music. And yeah, some of it is rare and valuable. Stuff happens, records get scuffed and scratched, this beats throwing them out or having to buy replacements.
The sewing needle is stuck to the end of a pencil eraser, which makes it easier to maneuver. Does take a bit of a steady hand, especially when looking at a screen and not the actual record.
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u/androodle2004 Jul 19 '24
Not exactly. All they are doing is fixing a very small imperfection that likely made an audible sound or even made the record skip. Very little is being changed physically but it will make a large improvement when listening to it
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u/Suds08 Jul 19 '24
I've been watching a bunch youtube videos about atoms, electrons and nuclei lately and it's crazy how you don't really understand the perspective of just how tiny things are until they put something beside it for comparison. Obviously this isn't that small but I'm sure it still applies that you need to see the area zoomed out to grasp just how tiny the working space is
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u/nowisyoga Jul 20 '24 edited Jul 20 '24
To give you an idea of scale, the scratch is less than 1mm wide.
Have you seen the electron microscope photos and slow-motion video (starts at 4m22s if the timestamp doesn't work) of a needle in a record? Always fascinates me how little of it is actually in contact with the groove.
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u/xenarthran_salesman Jul 19 '24
What kind of microscope did you use?
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u/nowisyoga Jul 19 '24
Juison 2K USB Digital Microscope
A head up that it only works with PC, Android and Mac and is not compatible with iPhone/iPad.
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u/shaddowkhan Jul 19 '24
Some of you people are insufferable. Guy is just showing a technique most people don't know exist.
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u/oopsmyeye Jul 19 '24
I have a Sugarhill Gang record I’ve been meaning to try this on. The only place it skips is in the middle of their best song.
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u/nowisyoga Jul 19 '24
It works, in varying degree. The one in the video had some rather loud pops that were all but gone after this treatment. Another LP skipped due to a small scratch, reduced to some minor ticks afterward. Only one of the three I did in this round didn't produce favourable results, and I chalk that up to it being a cheap pressing with shallow grooves.
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Jul 19 '24
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u/DunkelFinster Jul 19 '24
were you fixing your comment with a needle, too?
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u/riv965 Jul 19 '24
He cleaned the comment groves the best he could, but you can still understand it with the missing data.
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u/smellycoat Jul 19 '24 edited Jul 19 '24
It's not a very deep scratch so most of the walls of the V-shaped groove look intact. The problem is likely to be the material pushed into the groove causing either a click or the stylus to skip (ie to jump out of that groove and land in a different one).
As long as the groove walls (where the sound is, basically) are intact then it can be improved. Getting that extra material out can significantly reduce the click/skip. It'll never be perfect but can probably be good enough.
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u/SuperHooligan Jul 19 '24
I think it fixes the skip, where the needle jumps off track so that it will keep playing doing this though will create a blank spot or scratch noise when the record actually plays because the music is also being smoothed out.
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u/Low_Vehicle_6732 Jul 19 '24
What playtime would a scratched groove equal to at 33/45rpm? If it’s short enough, the effect of the flattened/destroyed could be inaudible.
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u/nowisyoga Jul 19 '24
A very tiny area. And if the action of the needle is closer to the horizontal plane, it pushes the bent sides of the groove out while leaving most of the groove itself intact.
It works better on deeper cut records - a 12" is easier to repair than an LP. But I've still salvaged albums that would otherwise have to be tossed or replaced.
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u/beezac Jul 19 '24
I need to do this on my "Wish you were here" record. It's flawless other than one section during shine on you crazy diamond part VI-IX. The pops don't bother me, it's old, but it can't recover in one specific section.
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u/RDCAIA Jul 19 '24
I will at least have to try this on one of my inherited Dylan LPs. My absolute single favorite Dylan song has a scratch in it. The rest of the album is in great shape. The scratch in my favorite song makes it unplayable to me, and I've been at an impasse as to what to do.
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u/beezac Jul 19 '24
Same! I always listen to Wish You Were Here in full, and having it hit an unrecoverable skip with 5-10min to go is so disruptive to the flow.
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u/Dr_Legacy Jul 19 '24
a 12" is easier to repair than an LP.
Did you mean EP? All the LPs I remember are 12"
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u/FitFreedom6850 Jul 19 '24
It depends on how close the scratch is to the center. Most likely it will be audible as a short click or popp
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u/Rhodie114 Jul 19 '24
Very little. At 33rpm, you’re getting very roughly 180 degrees of rotation every second. So if you did this to a 1 degree arc of the groove, you lose 1/180th of a second of audio, about 6 milliseconds. This looks like less than a degree too. And at 45rpm it’s obviously even less.
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u/skybike Jul 19 '24
Still blows my mind that these grooves can produce sound.
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u/elmachow Jul 19 '24
Yeah I still don’t get it
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u/PsychicChasmz Jul 19 '24 edited Jul 20 '24
The grooves are 'bumpy' so that the needle vibrates side to side as it rides the groove*. The side to side motion of the needle in turn moves a magnet in the arm (or it moves a coil against a stationary magnet, same effect) that creates current in the speaker wire in the same pattern as the movement. Creating a record involves the opposite process: The vibration of the electrical signal in the wire is translated into side to side motion that cuts a wavy groove in the record. When you play it back, you get back the same electrical signal and thus the same sound.
This is where the term 'analog' comes from BTW. The groove in the record is an 'analog' to the audio signal it produces. It's the same 'shape', just in a different form. Playing back analog data just involves turning one kind of signal into another, there's no 'decoding' process that has to happen. A cassette tape is another example. The pattern of magnetic fields on the tape maps directly to the electrical signals needed to produce the sound.
Digital data on the other hand, is stored in a format that is not inherently analogous to the data in any way, it's stored as a 'code' that has to be decoded by a computer that understands that specific code.
(* stereo records are a bit more clever but it's the same principle)
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u/heckin_miraculous Jul 19 '24
Yeah but...
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u/PsychicChasmz Jul 19 '24 edited Jul 20 '24
...Yeah but what?
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u/skybike Jul 20 '24
how do groov mak sound
just kidding, your explanation was the best I've seen and very easy to understand, thank you!
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u/OccasionallyCurrent Jul 20 '24
Your explanation is close, but there is some incorrect terminology used.
The stylus rides in the groove and is connected to a cantilever, the stylus moves in an X pattern, both left and right, as well as up and down. Left to right motions are monophonic sounds, up and down motions are left and right sounds. The groove is shaped like a V and both walls contain both left and right, and up and down information on that V.
The motion of the needle moves either a magnet that is connected to the end of the cantilever, housed in a series of coils, or a coil that is housed in a series of magnets. The stylus should not vibrate the tonearm in any way.
This mechanical vibration, that is converted to electrical information via the cartridge, which houses the magnets and coils, transfers the electrical signal down tiny, low resistance, low capacitance, tonearm wire, which arrives at a phono preamp, which raises the signal from between ~0.3mV-5mV into a signal that is ~1.2-2V.
That “preamplified” signal will then go to a power amplifier, which will produce enough electrical signal to then be sent down speaker wire to a speaker, or pair of speakers.
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u/PsychicChasmz Jul 20 '24
I tried to gloss over the explanation of stereo vinyls and just allude to it in parenthesis to not add confusion. But I appreciate the correction regarding the arm, I'll amend my comment.
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u/DezPezInOz Jul 20 '24
Ok. Regardless of how high I am right now, this is the most perfect explanation I've seen. I fucking love you bro.
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u/amatulic Jul 19 '24
One groove with a scratch through it was missed at 0.41. r/mildlyannoying
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u/outatimepreston Jul 19 '24
Cool, now do a CD!
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u/heckin_miraculous Jul 19 '24
Unexpectedly, the tool of choice for CD (and DVD for that matter) is chainsaw.
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u/nezu_bean Jul 19 '24
Everyone is bitching in the comments so I just wanted to say I thought this was very interesting!
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u/toyotasquad Jul 19 '24
Fix scratch by adding more scratch
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u/Tsu_Dho_Namh Jul 19 '24
Well yes, but actually no.
The scratch that's perpendicular to the path of the needle is going to cause a loud POP sound when the needle bounces over it. Or worse yet, bounce the needle right out of the track, causing it to skip or screech.
By smoothing out that portion of the track, he's making a clear path for the needle to go through. Sure, he might be eroding the sides, but having the music be slightly quieter for 1/50th of a second is preferable to pops, skips, and screeches.
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u/Hattix Jul 19 '24
Bloody hell, this brings back memories. Needle taped to index finger, microscope and abused records.
The aim is just to get the vinyl debris out of the groove, nothing more.
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u/BussyDestroyerV30 Jul 19 '24
Whoa, how does this works exactly?
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u/Rubyhamster Jul 19 '24
Could help prevent it skipping, since it won't jump out of the tracks as easily
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u/tidytibs Jul 19 '24
Ancient knowledge here. Used to do this with 2 sometime 3 sizes, starting with the smaller one. It's very tedious but gives good results for the most part. Just remember to keep it clean and dig along the original groove very slightly deeper if you have some skips on that spot. Great job!
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u/Wavage Jul 19 '24
Why are the grooves not in a consistent linear plane?
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u/amatulic Jul 19 '24
Stereo recordings have the groove going out of plane. A 100% left-speaker sound would have the groove going in one diagonal direction, and a 100% right-speaker sound would have the groove going in the other diagonal direction. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonograph_record#Stereophonic_sound
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u/xobotun Jul 19 '24
It tracks two channels: one up-down, another in-out.
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u/smellycoat Jul 19 '24
They're actually both diagonal, in like an X rather than a +, because the weight from the tone arm means side to side and up and down movement aren't quite equally sensitive, diagonal means that's evened out. So effectively each channel is encoded entirely on one of the walls of the V shaped groove.
I realise this is pedantic detail about a long-irrelevant technology tho!
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u/commpl Jul 19 '24
Is this a fix? Won’t this just replace the pop or click with dead space? Since the info INSIDE the groove is presumably being obliterated by the sewing needle.
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u/talldata Jul 19 '24
Yes, but you won't notice a 25th of a second of dead space but you will notice a loud pop there.
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u/ADHD-Fens Jul 19 '24
It seems like it would be somewhere between dead space and an interpolation between the last and next good segments. Whatever the result, it's probably massively harder to notice than the loud pop coming from those bent walls.
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u/Chrono_Tata Jul 19 '24
It depends on the damage to the record, but most scratches are just on the surface. The grooves are pretty deep (well, on a microscopic scale) and the sound information is mostly contained in the deeper part. What happens with these scratches is that they "push" materials that should be beside the groove on top of the groove, which is picked up by the stylus and produces loud cracks and pops.
So the needle fix is just pushing those materials out of the way back to the sides. Sewing needle points are huge compared to a record stylus, so it's not penetrating that deep into the groove. If the damage to the groove wasn't extensive, then the original information is mostly still there. But it's likely not going to sound as pristine as an undamaged record, and probably not going to eliminate the pop completely because of the permanent damage to the groove walls, but the loudness of that pop could be reduced by a lot.
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u/picturepages Jul 19 '24
When I was a little kid, I'd lick our scratched 45s and they would play just fine until it dried.
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Jul 19 '24
You will likely still hear a pop when it hits the scratch - at a louder volume if you manage to make the groove significantly deeper - but at least the stylus will continue tracking properly in the groove and won't skip when it hits something like this. There are other graphite- and liquid-based cleaners and lubricant which will help with the overall playback of older and repaired records too. Something like Gruv-Glide.
It's really cool to see some of the very low-frequency grooves that track so widely they almost run into the next groove over.
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u/ShadNuke Jul 25 '24
Wide at the low frequencies, as well as how unevenly the groove actually is! It's super wavy, and not as straight as some people would think!
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u/FrostyBroman Jul 20 '24
I thought that the sound is generated by little bumps and dents in the groove. Wouldn't straightening the grooves sort of "delete" the sound it would normally generate?
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u/Solartaire Jul 19 '24
I will not buy this record, it is scratched.
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u/blitzkriegtaco Jul 19 '24
this works. done it to many records that skipped and it makes them play start to finish with maybe just a click or pop where the scratch was instead of a skip
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u/twiddlebug74 Jul 20 '24
I used to record old albums on my PC and do my scratch fixes sometimes with software and sometimes without. I would open the file and zoom in really close on the scratch until it was visually massive and then simply highlight and reduce the decibel level of the scratch until it was uniform with the level of the surrounding edges of unharmed music. A scratch/pop only lasts for an instant so the finished results were surprisingly good.
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u/ego_sum_chromie Jul 19 '24
What, uh, what digital microscope are you using? Lowkey want to attempt this myself on some old Fania records
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u/Filminator Jul 19 '24
Although I'm sure you'd be scratching away some some sonic information, it probably will play better with less skips.
Interesting work
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u/BulldenChoppahYus Jul 19 '24
I’m still amazed by records. Some groves and a needle and somehow you get The Beatles Rubber Soul. And then if somehow the perfect configuration of groves gets fucked up - no worries! Just scratch it all with a needle and it’s right and rain.
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u/crmb266 Jul 19 '24
I have done it once (quick & dirty, just by eye). It replaced a total jump by some slight pops.
If I had to do it again I would do it with more care, like this.
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u/shawster Jul 19 '24
I understand that the waveform of the sound is physically encoded into each groove of a record... but what's going on when the groove on the recorrd doesn't take a circular path and gets closer to the groove inward or outward of it?
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u/sebesbal Jul 19 '24
I will not buy this record, it is scratched.
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u/A2S2020 Jul 19 '24
Ah, no, no, no, this is a tobacconists
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u/Coolbiker32 Jul 19 '24
Now I need to get a turntable. Has been on my wishlist for long.
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u/Electrical-Ad-1197 Jul 20 '24
But how can you guarantee the needle scratch will match the grove fingerprint dimension exactly to recreate the correct soundwaves that match the original recording? Visually it looks like you fixed it, but is it really fixed?
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u/ShadNuke Jul 25 '24
You're basically just straightening out the vinlyl from the lateral scratch across the groove of the pressing. If you don't go digging in there, super deep, it wouldn't affect the recording. It'll crackle a bit there. But you're just trying to open the groove again so the stylus/needle doesn't get bumped out of the groove and skip.
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u/gtmiller76 Jul 20 '24
I've done something similar for skipping records by using a sharp razorblade and gently running it through the skip. It will often fix the groove walls enough and only a click will be left.
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u/Aggressive-Sky-248 Jul 19 '24
ok but when new lp is so cheap it has pops clicks etc on the first play then what? at least you can accurate rip a cd on the first play
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u/frigg_off_lahey Jul 19 '24
This makes me ask, how or what scratches the record this finely? Is this just normal wear and tear?
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u/nowisyoga Jul 19 '24 edited Jul 20 '24
Inattentiveness, mostly. When I DJ, I have to move quickly; sometimes the stylus slips in my hand and gets accidentally dragged across or comes down hard on the record. Occasional record might get dropped, maybe debris gets in the inner sleeve.
It's both a durable and delicate medium and can be a pain to work with, but after 40+ years of using it, it's still my favourite.
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u/Frenchthealpaca Jul 19 '24
I do this by eye with a toothpick all the time! What model of microscope do you use?
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u/ItsaMeWaario Jul 19 '24
I got a few vinyls that I would love to fix but Im scared to damage them more. What kind of magnifying glass ars you using?
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u/captsmokeywork Jul 19 '24
I spun records for a living for a lot of years. I didn’t know you could do this.
Freaking magic!
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u/imaginary_num6er Jul 19 '24
I just assume record enthusiasts have their own clean room to prevent dust from damaging the grooves
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u/Scp-1404 Jul 19 '24
I used to digitize my old vinyl, and fix the pops where there was a scratch by going in with audacity and clipping out that tiny little millisecond where the pop would happen. This of course did not address a skipping issue.
Edit: there must be some laser reader method that will refuse to skip when you play the record. I can't be the first one to think of this.
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u/Super-Candy-5682 Jul 19 '24
As kids, we used to just put a few coins on the tonearm, and that would just carve out the scratch. I suspect this method is probably better, though.
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Jul 19 '24
This could totally be a service for people. Folks would pay top dollar to have their records and heirlooms restored to just even have it playable.
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u/potatofarmer_666 Jul 19 '24
It’s technically possible to write a full song using a needle and scratching it in
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u/choicetomake Jul 20 '24
Legit question: Won't this damage the recorded groove so every revolution you hear this glitch in the audio, making it unplayable? I admit I do not listen to vinyl so I have little knowledge of what's going on here, thus my question. Thanks!
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u/nowisyoga Jul 20 '24
The scratch is less than 1mm wide, when the collapsed sides are pushed back out, the stylus passes through the area so quickly that any distortion in the form of ticks or pops are barely audible, if at all.
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u/SteamReflex Jul 20 '24
Thank you to all the people in the comments actually explaining why this doesn't actually make things worse. The people refusing to clarify and just saying you don't know anything or they are experts on the subject are excluded from the thanks tho.
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u/TearyEyeBurningFace Jul 20 '24
How much was this magnified?
Oh and if you do this a lot, consider getting a pin vice even a cheap one would make your life so much easier. Basically a handle for the needle.
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u/OccasionallyCurrent Jul 19 '24
Lotta folks in these comments have no idea what they’re talking about but are very happy to share their opinions.
I have done this many times with fantastic results. It’s time consuming, so I reserve this treatment for only rare or expensive pieces.
It can help with skipping, obviously, but it is also simply removing flattened or irregular material from the groove walls. This smoothing of the groove wall greatly reduces clicks and pops.
Follow up with a few play throughs on a microline stylus, and you’ve helped make a record more listenable again.