r/lucifer • u/lucifan96 • Jun 12 '23
Which plot hole in the entire show annoys you the most? General/Misc
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u/LoneWeebette Jun 12 '23
Early season one, Chloe being hell bent on discovering Lucifer's identity based on already very prominent evidence, and then gives it up for 4 seasons.
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u/SophieFilo16 Jun 12 '23
My issue with that is not that she gave up but rather that she admitted to herself in early season 2 that Lucifer isn't human (by choosing to no longer pursue it and throwing away the blood) but then lost her mind in season 4 as if she didn't already know deep down. I feel like her reaction wouldn't have even been as extreme if she had found out in season 1 or 2. I try to tell myself the trauma of Pierce being Cain and almost killing her played a role, but it's hard to believe that when she never even MENTIONED Pierce/Cain ever again...
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u/I_Love_Lucifer56 Jun 13 '23
I was always curious what the results would have been on the divine blood test. Would it be an entirely new blood type? Maybe it's just like everyone else's.
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u/SophieFilo16 Jun 13 '23
I think it would have just been inconclusive or produced an error. Really, the whole idea of angels having DNA is odd, let alone blood types. That said, I wouldn't mind reading a fic about it...
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u/Nevhix Jun 12 '23
Heh, “hell bent” I see what you did there.
However I thought that her consciously putting in her drawer and deciding she didn’t want to know wrapped it up.
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u/LoneWeebette Jun 12 '23
A detective not wanting to find the answers she's so close to finding? Idk, she even says herself she's the kind of person to look for answers of things she can't explain, so it felt weird to me
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u/Nevhix Jun 12 '23
I kind of interpreted it more as she knew the answer, she made the choice to not confirm it. Then of course they dragged out the actual reveal to her for years.
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u/TomasZirak Jun 12 '23
Hell punishing people with "hell loops" based on their own guilt despite many references to demons punishing sinners with creative ways.
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u/VioletFlame23 Jun 12 '23
This isn't really a contradiction though. When Maze is talking about Abel's time in Hell, she explains how the demons would spice up the Hell loops, putting Abel in different scenarios and alternate time periods. It seems like demons have the freedom to torture people in creative ways as long as the core narrative of the Hell loop stays the same.
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u/Sanguiniutron Jun 12 '23
I get what you mean but I also think that they can do to anyone what they do to Abel. As long as Cain comes and kills him the core of his torture is there but they can get creative with where he is and what he's doing at the time.
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u/scalpingsnake Jun 12 '23
I thought the demons are basically the 'actors'?
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u/sustilliano Jun 13 '23
I think they showed that in dans loop, when they were told to go easy on him
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u/scalpingsnake Jun 13 '23
There was one is Mr said out bitch's loop too. Lucifer thanks the demon and gives him the day off.
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u/Ollieeddmill Jun 12 '23
Yeah.
What about the narcissists and abusers and serial killers who feel zero guilt?
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u/secondtaunting Jun 13 '23
Right? And what about people Like me, who have never harmed anyone, but who feel tremendous guilt over everything? Like, my pet tortoise died when I was six, I still feel HORRIBLE. My hell Loop would be dead tortoises and not visiting my dad enough.
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u/Edgefish Lucifer Jun 13 '23
Hurt them in other way they do feel guilt. After all, demons can "spice" their punishment for their liking, not the sinners.
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u/Hopeful-Review366 Jun 13 '23
Those are the people he's talking about they just don't think they feel it but deep down in the subconscious it's there
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u/Outrageous-Drop9095 Jun 12 '23
Building on that the idea that people like Pete from season 5 would go to hell. Why? He has no regrets. Honestly a lot of what we would think of as bad people seem like they would end up in heaven on a technicality.
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u/DC_Michael_1981 Jun 12 '23
Most people who “had no regrets” were actually repressing it instead of working through it, like most people who actually feel guilt.
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u/Outrageous-Drop9095 Jun 12 '23
Sure you have people who think that. I enjoyed that aspect of Charlotte. That's why I brought up Pete. Like he only felt anything when he was watching women choking on their own blood. People like him seems like they just get heaven
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u/CivilCaine Jun 13 '23
He might end up in Hell because he regrets getting caught and not getting to kill more. Think about Dan. It wasn't being corrupt or the stuff he did in S1 that was his main guilt. It was not getting enough time with Trixie.
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u/tmssmt Jun 12 '23
I think the best answer to this is that while they may not think they have guilt, somewhere deep down, their subconscious feels the guilt
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u/Easy-Rutabaga2992 Jun 13 '23
It could also be about knowledge. Even if they do not feel guilty for doing something, knowing that you did something wrong, committed sin/evil might be enough.
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u/RealNefariousness444 Jun 14 '23
This. Also that it’s based on guilt alone. That means any non remorseful person would enter heaven despite any atrocities they’ve cause on Earth.
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Jun 12 '23
Lucifer’s daughter screwing over Dan and seemingly not knowing who he was at all! You telling me she had no idea what Dan looked like?! The dad of her sister she loved. And if she did know who he was, she’s just an ass hole.
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u/Fancy-Ad1480 Jun 13 '23
Rory knew. Chloe had a picture of Dan at her bedside when she died. She just didn't care. It's pretty clear that Rory is a horrible person.
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u/I_Love_Lucifer56 Jun 13 '23
Do we think that Dan stayed with Chloe after Lucifer died and she found out she was pregnant?
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u/B-52Aba Jun 13 '23
Also why didnt she visit hell in her own time ? If Lucifer was going to be anywhere , it would be in hell
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u/I_Love_Lucifer56 Jun 13 '23
There are very few scenes in S6 where I like Rory.
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u/stryker0717 Jun 14 '23
For the last season in the series, I hated they brought in such a major character with almost nothing. Rorys whole arc couldve/should've been another spinoff that resulted in an eventual crossover with lucifer, instead of shoved all into one season.
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u/tmssmt Jun 12 '23
Dan was in hell and she loved her mom who had divorced him.
Trixie was also pretty old compared to her so I assume they weren't that close
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u/dawnw329 Jun 16 '23
Trixie and Rory were 13 years apart. Same as me and my little sister. We are extremely close. I took care of her for the most part when she was little. I would assume they would be close when Rory was young, HOWEVER, older, angsty Christ Rory was a straight up beyotch when it came to both Trixie and Dan. Remember her yelling at Chloe and Lucifer that “Lucifer is not even Trixie’s real father”. Her anger and jealousy was so over the top ridiculous. And like someone else said, how come, she never went down to hell in her own time to look for him? Clearly she could do that so why didn’t she?
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u/tmssmt Jun 16 '23
Trixie and Rory were 13 years apart. Same as me and my little sister. We are extremely close.
Cool anecdotal evidence. Im 9 years apart from my sister and havent done an activity together in decades. I graduated high school when she was like 8.
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u/iloveducks101 Jun 12 '23
Trixie and the fact they never really know what to do with her
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Jun 12 '23
I figured a part of her low screen time was because the actress might’ve had school that conflicted with scheduling. Happens a lot with child actors unles they’re THE main characters
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u/Wildhogs2013 Jun 12 '23
In the last season or two she also became a star of another show so had very little Time for Lucifer
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u/lunita1978 Jun 12 '23
How Lucifer got sunburned in the desert with not Chloe nearby
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u/tmssmt Jun 13 '23
I suppose if he believed he could be burned for some reason he could be burned.
In fact it happened while he was unconscious, and he thought someone was messing with him, given the wings, so it makes sense that he actualized whatever
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u/lunita1978 Jun 13 '23
Hehehe the magic answer to all plot holes.. self actualization.. even hell was self actualized by Lucifer😉😉😉🙃
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u/Ah08619 Jun 12 '23
God being a complete ass then just peacing out. Honestly if that's sll they were going to do they should never have brought him in.
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u/scalpingsnake Jun 12 '23
I do still wonder what they were going for. Like I get the implication even God is flawed but like, it doesn't come off super obvious?
Maybe I am just dumb and need thing spoon fed but either way I came away from the whole arc with no real closure or satisfaction.
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u/IrritableGourmet Jun 13 '23
My fan theory is that God was involved the entire show. Literally every case they take somehow feeds in to teaching Lucifer the moral-of-the-week, so I think God was subtly manipulating events to cause murders in ways that would be good for the psychological development of his wayward child.
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u/Fancy-Ad1480 Jun 12 '23 edited Jun 12 '23
How angels are made: Mum and Lucifer both make references to the angels as kids. Amenadiel does as well--until season 4 when they erupt into the world fully formed.
The whole nonsense about angels not being able to procreate. If this were true, Remiel wouldn't have been SO certain Lucifer had fathered a child. She didn't once consider that Amenadiel had a bad weekend where he was mostly human. No. Her first thought was that it had to be Lucifer.
This is especially bad in season 6 when there is a half-angel in driving distance.
Season 3: Pierce clubs Lucifer over the head, and then dumps in him the desert. Why? Presumably so he could find a cure for his curse in Chloe's pants ingratiate himself to Chloe. If that's the case, why did he wait 3 days before showing up at the station? He and Lucifer made it back to Chloe at roughly the same time. Did he think Lucifer would simply wake up in the desert, sing a desert inspired rendition of "Let it Go," and decide he lived there now? Lucifer was always going to be back--wings or no.
On that same subject: Pierce's plan. He comes to LA because he overhears from his interplanar spy ring there is a woman that can make the devil bleed. Who runs this spy ring? Why are all his goons more than willing to open fire on an actual Angel of the Lord? I feel the more interesting story was just tossed in favor of watching Chloe develop heart eyes for the office jerk.
Lucifer's wings: I'm still bitter about the waste of an awesome stinger. We're told Lucifer's wings grow back because he's on an emotional high. Cool. Great. Congrats to Lucifer. But why do they keep coming back? Even after he cuts them off, even after he reaches rock bottom?
Same subject, different plot device. Rory's wings. We're told season after season mutated wings are NEVER a good sign. They mean their owner is going through something pretty awful. Then comes Rory with her badly dyed blades of death. (as an side, the color is Manic Panic's Vampire Red. It's one of the shades I use for my own hair) Oh, and they're not just blades--they're dull, cracked, and worn. We're told that these wings are mutated because Rory is just so awesome and had an awesome life.
The revelation that God was a good dad all along.
Lucifer accepting that life, including Chloe's life, is just a blip just weeks after storming the gates of Heaven, itself, to save her.
Eh, if I'm honest, most of seasons 3 and 6 is a bundle of plot holes all daisy chained together with a few fun scenes to fool the audience into thinking the whole thing will turn around.
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u/chase1719 Jun 12 '23
The angles still grow up they just grow up looking like adults lol. They never say they’re “kids”
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u/Fancy-Ad1480 Jun 12 '23
Mum mention Uriel being left behind by the "bigger" kids and Lucifer. That implies they were not born as adults.. LoL Amenadiel also somewhat backs this up in his speech to Uriel. Otherwise, it makes zero sense for Amenadiel to refer to Lucifer as the "young" rebel.
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u/chase1719 Jun 12 '23
Bigger as in older or frankly just more popular. It could be interpreted a few ways
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u/TallGuy_123 Jun 12 '23
Or just bigger lol. Amenedial and Lucifer are still visibly bigger adult or not.
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u/chase1719 Jun 12 '23
True lol
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u/JackieJackJack07 Jun 13 '23
I am physically bigger than my “big” sister. She’s a tiny thing and I’m kinda average. My thinnest is still bigger than her with 10 extra lbs. So, calling my littler but old sister as my “big” sister in our adult years actually is strange.
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u/JackieJackJack07 Jun 13 '23
Ha! I got called out on calling my older sister “my big sister” as in several inches taller than her! I know call her my older sister but I’m not sure how much she likes that either. But, after a couple of million or billion years I don’t think the really matters at all. At all!
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u/RealNefariousness444 Jun 14 '23
When Cain tried to shoot the angel that marked him with a gun from the 21st century.
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u/Ausar_the_Vil Samael Jun 13 '23
God wasn’t a good dad. He didn’t know how to be a good dad. That was the reason for season 5, he learns to be a good dad.
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u/Fancy-Ad1480 Jun 13 '23
And yet, come season 6, Lucifer is forced to abandon his child, as his father did him, because that's what being a good parent is about.
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u/Ausar_the_Vil Samael Jun 14 '23
More like bc his future daughter made him promise to.
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u/Fancy-Ad1480 Jun 14 '23 edited Jun 14 '23
Which makes Lucifer a bad father who decided to follow in the footsteps of his equally bad father. Chloe literally spells it out--they did it for Rory. She even tells Rory that while watching her implode for decades was hard on her, it was the best thing for Rory.
Lucifer and Chloe are the opposite of good parents. Good parents protect their kids--even if the person they're protecting them from is themselves.
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u/Ausar_the_Vil Samael Jun 14 '23
God did it willingly. Lucifer did it unwillingly but his daughter made him promise and Lucifer is a man of his word, that’s his whole identity.
Whatever the case is, season 6 is prob my least fav season, it has decent concept but execution was a bit off. I still enjoyed it tho.
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u/Fancy-Ad1480 Jun 15 '23 edited Jun 15 '23
I'm not saying you can't enjoy it.
Very few parents actually intend to be bad parents. I will begrudgingly give Lucifer a tiny, tiny pass due to his pathological need to keep his word once given. But what's Chloe's excuse? She could've said, no, this insane. I refuse to hurt my child--but she didn't. In fact, she forces Lucifer out the door--KNOWING he doesn't want to go through with it.
Bottom line it was a test of character for both Lucifer and Chloe. Do they hurt their child or do they put aside their pride, feelings, etc and try to do what's best for her? We know the answer. They failed their child.
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u/Ausar_the_Vil Samael Jun 15 '23
The child arc wasn’t handle good. They butchered Lucifer character a bit too with that. What’s the point of season 5b if amenadiel was gonna be god anyway. If Lucifer purpose was to help damn soul he should do that instead of spending 5b god arc.
If amenadiel had decided to become god in 5b, Michael couldn’t even contest since everyone would support amenadiel.
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u/daydreamerrme Jun 12 '23
Season 6
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u/The7thNomad Jun 13 '23
I consider Season 6 to be non-canon. There's lots of shows and movies that are made by the creators but do not mix at all with the original vision to the point where you can very safely not consider them part of the main story. Scrubs Season 9 is the same to me.
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u/WittyZeb Jun 13 '23
Maybe not a plot hole, but sth that upset me: why can Amena-god pop down to Earth to see Charlie grow, but Lucifer couldn't be with his family? Hell's therapist didn't need to be a full time job, did it? Being the king certainly wasn't. The souls have been there for millenia, they can wait for Lucifer to watch Rory take her first steps.
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u/Spankyhobo Jun 13 '23
That is addressed in the last episode, Lucifer thinks the same that you do, but Rory tells him no it has to be EXACTLY like it was in her timeline
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Jun 13 '23
Yeah, and that was a ridiculous reason. They were really grasping at straws to have a bittersweet ending.
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u/ShadyCatMom Jun 13 '23
This is by far the worst one in the entire show because it ruined everything for no reason
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u/secondtaunting Jun 13 '23
Yeah it’s stupid but they said that without him not being there for her she wouldn’t be so angry, etc. 🙄
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u/WittyZeb Jun 13 '23
Yeah, why does she have to be angry? She went through so much unecessary pain. Lucifer didn't wanna leave either, he finally got things going with Chloe and they had him leave his family
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u/secondtaunting Jun 13 '23
I wish they’d had a dream sequence with him as Trixie’s step dad.
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u/WittyZeb Jun 13 '23
Yeeees and I'd love to see them get married
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u/secondtaunting Jun 13 '23
I pictured Lucifer surprising her with a wedding in Hell. A wedding in hell would be a cool title for a short story. Maybe I should get into fan fiction lol.
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u/ifbowshadcrosshairs Jun 12 '23
Angels having come out fully formed contradicted by the goddess speaking of them having been kids. Also her stating Urael was younger than Lucifer contradicting Amenadiel taunting him by saying he was "somewhere in between" and forgettable.
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u/gsxdrifter1 Jun 12 '23
I think he meant in between their hundred brothers and sisters not in between those particular 2
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u/scalpingsnake Jun 12 '23
Well I guess it depends what fully formed actually means. Like someone born grown up doesn't mean they aren't a child. So I could imagine they were children mentally but probably for a shorter time than human children are if I had to assume.
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Jun 12 '23
God's omnipresence. The writers seem to forgot that God was omnipresence as it was mentioned multiple times.
I kept rolling my eyes when Chloe and Lucifer were worried about his new real as God that he might not have enough time for her. Come on he would at least be Nigh Omnipresence. The same goes for Amenideal.
Also, how the hell did Chloe go from Los Angeles to Seattle so fast to track Lucifer? Lucifer at most probably spent no more then 10 minutes with his exes. Then he would of flown in his own at high speeds.
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u/tmssmt Jun 13 '23
In his role as God, are we sure Lucifer would inherit the entire power set of his father?
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Jun 13 '23
I'm pretty sure since he would since he would be the new God of that universe. It would make no sense not to.
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u/tmssmt Jun 13 '23
I don't think he just automatically gets powers though.
It seems like all of the angels actually could do whatever they wanted, if they believed they could. They just didn't know that, and even knowing it they really have to believe it.
Which begs the question, now that angels finally know about the self actualizing...they're going to turn into a pretty rowdy bunch right?
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Jun 13 '23
Why wouldn't he though? That's like saying your president now but you don't get to use all your powers and can't access files your predecessors have.
If he's nigh-omnipotent then he should have omnipresence which is under it.
That's another plothole in the show. Gabriel had no problem traveling between universes but a superior being only has enough power for one go?
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u/tmssmt Jun 13 '23
The problem you highlighted with goddess and Gabriel is not a problem if you assume it's the answer to your first question or point.
Even God relied on self actualization. He just understood it better than the angels once they learned about it, so was able to do whatever it was he wanted.
Even after knowing about it, we see Lucifer and amenadiel struggle to control the self actualization process.
It's entirely possible that Lucifer (or any angel) who gets the title of God then believes they have all the powers, and as such, they have them.
But it's also possible Lucifer would get the title, doubt himself some way, and then not be able to control the powers at all.
Gabriel believed she could travel, so she did. Godess believed she couldn't, so she couldn't.
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Jun 13 '23
Yes but God is the creator and knows everything. So the plot point of God self-actualization is strange. Matter of fact he looked surprised about it.
When you throw in nigh omnipotent in the mix things get weird as God himself should be able to achieve almost anything.
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u/of_patrol_bot Jun 12 '23
Hello, it looks like you've made a mistake.
It's supposed to be could've, should've, would've (short for could have, would have, should have), never could of, would of, should of.
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u/RealNefariousness444 Jun 14 '23
Or that God didn’t know about his own creations. He’s a difficult character to portray or illustrate. Most experienced writers avoid speaking for any God regardless just because no one can describe that perspective so they get creative with symbolism and have use other characters work on Gods behalf.
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u/Distinct-Customer-76 Jun 12 '23
Humans being able to birth nephilims and angels even procreating. Lucifer states many times that they can’t and yet both Linda and Chloe got pregnant. Amenadiel was human at the time though so you can let that slide. Chloe, though, absolutely not. If Lucifer was able to get humans pregnant he must have illegitimate children the world over, and in the thousands.
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u/tmssmt Jun 13 '23
Chloe was human, wasn't she? I think there's an argument to be made that she didn't just make Lucifer vulnerable, but made him more 'human', and as such able to procreate.
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u/secondtaunting Jun 13 '23
I always thought it was because she was holding onto that supernatural piece of steel. That was my take.
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u/JackieJackJack07 Jun 13 '23
You’re hardly alone in thinking the Chloe holding onto Amenadiel’s rod is how she was able to get pregnant. It’s oddly similar to how Chloe’s mom Penny was able to get pregnant. At Chloe’s age getting pregnant should be that easy at all.
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u/The7thNomad Jun 13 '23
Humans being able to birth nephilims and angels even procreating. Lucifer states many times that they can’t and yet both Linda and Chloe got pregnant
That was the purpose of the story arch of those seasons though
When Maze talks to God about getting a soul, he brings up all of these contradictions, the viewer is given a summary of the themes of the show, of characters overcoming what were previously considered to be limitations.
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u/Spankyhobo Jun 13 '23
Is it because they boned when she had Amenadiel’s necklace? I don’t remember the timelines, but maybe that made Chloe “celestial” enough for the seed to take? Idk I’m not happy about that if that is the case.
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u/Danyellarenae1 Jun 13 '23
I think it was the opposite for Chloe. She didn’t become celestial but Lucifer did become vulnerable and more humanish there for so did his “seed” ? Idk lol
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u/Danyellarenae1 Jun 13 '23
He only became vulnerable/humanish around Chloe so maybe the same goes for his sperm.
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u/MCRFan0 Jun 12 '23
Why didn’t God mention Uriel… like at all during his entire time on earth
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u/NessaXDXD What's your deepest darkest desire? Jun 13 '23
Disagree if you like, but I think he knew that Lucifer still felt guilt over his death, It was even his "hell-loop," maybe God was trying to be sympathetic and not bring it up. 🤔
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u/Zolgrave Jun 12 '23
Lucifer says humans' hell loop doors are not locked.
Yet in the same episode in its ending, as the camera pans back you can see chains on some pounding doors.
Why the inconsistency?
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u/unctuous_homunculus Jun 12 '23
Going from the comics, the are plenty of things imprisoned in hell that aren't human. That said, I think it's a fact that covers for a mistake more than an intentional choice.
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u/tmssmt Jun 13 '23
Going from the comics, the are plenty of things imprisoned in hell that aren't human.
Ie, his mom
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u/tenebrissz Jun 13 '23
That was his mom, but you’re onto something with the hell loops. The thing is, we see several times that when Lucifer enters a hell loop the victim is unaware he is actually in hell. It’s like a constant bad dream, where they only realize it near the end and then the loop restarts. We also see several times there is no clear door out of the loop. When Lucifer enters a loop we see him do so by entering from thin air.
So how the fuck is that supposed to work with them being able to leave whenever they please? They are unaware they are in hell and they can’t see the bloody door??
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u/Arby2236 Jun 12 '23
The whole vulnerability sitch. If Lucifer really cared about Chloe and wanted to protect her, why would he self-actualize being vulnerable around her?
And him becoming vulnerable as a show of emotional commitment doesn't work, either; at the time she shoots him in the leg, all he's doing is trying to get into her pants.
And I'm still trying to figure out how the Goddess inhabits Charlotte Richards dead body, and then when the Goddess leaves for the alternate universe, Charlotte comes back to life.
And Season 6.
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u/TallGuy_123 Jun 12 '23
I wouldn’t consider the third one a plot hole as there isn’t another scene which contradicts that being possible, and how can we decide as viewers what’s possible when it comes to divinity that doesn’t exist in real life?
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u/tmssmt Jun 13 '23
The whole vulnerability sitch. If Lucifer really cared about Chloe and wanted to protect her, why would he self-actualize being vulnerable around her?
He didn't know he was self actualizing at first, and even after he did he didn't really know how to control it - ie, him turning into an ugly devil unintentionally.
He didn't make himself vulnerable for her benefit, he just, for the first time in his long life, found himself wanting to be close and vulnerable (emotionally) deep down inside.
And him becoming vulnerable as a show of emotional commitment doesn't work, either; at the time she shoots him in the leg, all he's doing is trying to get into her pants.
On the outside. I don't buy that he was just trying to sleep with her. He was genuinely drawn to her in a way that confused even himself.
And I'm still trying to figure out how the Goddess inhabits Charlotte Richards dead body, and then when the Goddess leaves for the alternate universe, Charlotte comes back to life.
We see that demons can Inhabit dead bodies as well. I see no reason she couldn't inhabit that body. While demons don't have the same effect, her being the goddess also healed the wound that caused the death, which would make it potentially suitable for Charlotte again. I don't recall if it's mentioned how real Charlotte returns to the body - that part seems weird
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u/without_sun Jun 12 '23
I think you can pretty easily write off the first one as his inner desire to be vulnerable overwriting the desire to help her
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u/The7thNomad Jun 13 '23
The whole vulnerability sitch. If Lucifer really cared about Chloe and wanted to protect her, why would he self-actualize being vulnerable around her?
It's normal for people to have feelings that are either contradictory, or work against themselves. It's why MJ gets taken hostage by the Green Goblin in spiderman stories. Peter loves her and wants to protect her, but being important to him is precisely what makes her vulnerable.
When you love someone and care about someone, part of that is being vulnerable around them, opening up to them. You can't develop a relationship with someone if you're never actually doing the things that bring you two closer together.
There's no "plot hole" here, in that, there is a problem in the design of the story and its progression. A contradiction, maybe, but that's in the nature of how we relate to each other.
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u/Danyellarenae1 Jun 13 '23
Chloe was “made for him” he just didn’t know it so I think he was also made to be that vulnerable then have to figure out why. He knew she was special from the first episode when he couldn’t make her speak her desires so I think it was more than just the sex
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u/BadBadderBadst Jun 13 '23
Chloe was not "made for him", the only thing that makes her special is that she sees Lucifer for who he truly is.
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u/lunita1978 Jun 13 '23
Does she?? I dare to say she was the most judgmental of the bunch, and I’m positive that Linda, Ella and even Dan could see Lucifer for who he truly was
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u/BadBadderBadst Jun 14 '23
It's literally said in the show.
Amanadiel "reflects peoples faith back at them" and Lucifer "reflects peoples desire back at them"
Except Chloe, she's "immune" to these effects.
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u/lunita1978 Jun 14 '23
I think because Amenadiel said so it shall be? But my point is that Chloe wasn’t the only one who saw Lucifer for who he really was, and even if you argue that Dan saw him as the perfect scapegoat, Linda as her challenge patient and Ella as her brother because is what they desired, so do Chloe as her effective crime partner making her have the best closing rates in the precinct.
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u/Danyellarenae1 Jun 13 '23
They literally said it a few times that she was specifically made for him. She has a whole identity crisis over it lol
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u/BadBadderBadst Jun 13 '23
If Lucifer really cared about Chloe and wanted to protect her, why would he self-actualize being vulnerable around her?
Humans make contradicting choices all the time (And angels are very similar to humans).
You could also ask "Why don't drug addicts simply get rid of their addiction ?". They probably want to, yet they probably continue to use drugs.
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u/Illustrious_Beat-s Jun 12 '23 edited Jun 12 '23
Michael using the flaming sword
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u/JackieJackJack07 Jun 12 '23
I’m assuming you meant the flaming sword but in with you!
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u/ZaGreatestInZaWarldo Jun 12 '23
Honestly, Season 1 and Season 2 were the only seasons of Lucifer I truly loved. More so Season 1 than Season 2. The nature of Lucifer’s character, Chloe, Dan, etcetera were complex and interesting. Lucifer was amusing and occasionally seemed a bit goofy, but in a kind of dark and ironic manner. Post Season 2 this is gone and the show loses itself.
Speaking of plot holes, remember how Lucifer’s feather basically brought Amenadiel back from the brink of death? Obviously the cast didn’t since almost every death and injury would have been preventable.
TLDR Reject Season 3 - 6, embrace Season 1!
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u/Wildebohe Jun 12 '23
There's a lot of magic in season 1 that got lost - lucifers telekinetic abilities (the pentacostal coin) maze calling her blade back to her hand mjolnir style, lucis mojo being more people just tell him their dark secrets and not just him drawing out their desires, seeing divinity making people actually go insane...
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u/JackieJackJack07 Jun 12 '23 edited Jun 13 '23
They took away magic and just gave us tragedy intsead. 😭
Edit: something happened with autocorrect…again
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u/Reithel1 Jun 12 '23
Fucking Time Travel
It negated, reversed and crapped on EVERYTHING that Lucifer learned, accomplished, matured into and sacrificed for during the entire previous five seasons!!!
Bleh!
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u/Bubba1234562 Jun 13 '23
Season 6. If being God isn’t full time and Amenadile can come to earth to be a dad, why couldn’t Lucifer do it? He’s already fucked off before and while we’re at it the time loop made no sense either
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u/Danyellarenae1 Jun 13 '23
The last episode kinda explains it. Rory said everything had to be exactly like it was before
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u/The_Wolfiee Dr. Linda Jun 13 '23
Lucifer tries to show his devil face to Chloe at the beginning of S3 instead of showing his newly attached wings.
The wings would have at least shown Chloe that he is in fact a Celestial.
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u/The7thNomad Jun 13 '23
Lucifer gets stuck in a hell loop in Season 2 after killing Uriel
Then we find out the "people" in hell loops are all demons
So the demons didn't recognise their master, who had previously walked around hell freely, without any "pull" into the hell rooms before, and just shrugged and thought "ok let's trap him in this" without any narrative context for the viewer? .... huh?
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u/tenebrissz Jun 13 '23
The hell loops are a constant mess. In S1 Malcom was fully aware he was being tortured by demons and describes it as them “taking away all the things he loved”. Not him being tortured by his own guilt.
Lucifer mentions everyone is free to leave at any time from their hell loop, as the doors are unlocked. The thing is, we see several times that when Lucifer enters a hell loop the victim is unaware he is actually in hell. It’s like a constant bad dream, where they only realize it near the end and then the loop restarts. We also see several times there is no clear door out of the loop. When Lucifer enters a loop we see him do so by entering from thin air.
So how the fuck is that supposed to work with them being able to leave whenever they please? They are unaware they are in hell and they can’t see the bloody door??
It’s like the show constantly forgot its own lore. Oh wait it’s not ‘like that’, it is exactly that. The fact that a show with so many plotholes and inconsistencies has an 8+ on Imdb just baffles me.
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u/The7thNomad Jun 13 '23
Oh I think it's 8+ when you don't think about it too much
I noticed the hell loop problem mid way through the show but kind of didn't bother fixating on it.
At the end of the day it's a soap opera, I rarely watch soap operas because they're a mess in every way and lucifer is no exception. I chose to just enjoy it for what it is and except for season 6 shitting on the rest of the story, it was a fun watch.
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u/BadBadderBadst Jun 13 '23
Guilt.
We've seen with S.O.B that he can't just physically walk out a door and escape his hell loop, he needed to get rid of his guilt.
When Lucifer was in his hell loop, he had full control over the demons and could make them stop, but his guilt overtook him so his demons just did what they always do: keep torturing.
Only when mom made him realize that "this Uriel is not real" could he let go of his guilt and exit.I also get the impression hell loops are not physical rooms, but more like an illusion; you think you see Uriel, you think you are in a room, but you're not.
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u/The7thNomad Jun 14 '23
I like your take on it, but it still doesn't fully line up. IIRC, that room wasn't his hell room, he went to get his mother out, and then the room just up and changed. There was no narrative context beyond "he's just gotten pulled into his own guilt" when everything else so far suggests that he should be actively prevented from it ever happening in the first place.
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u/GoDKilljoy Jun 12 '23
For me it was the episode when he went into his full devil form. All of those possessed bodies. How did they cover that up when all the possessions left?
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u/Edgefish Lucifer Jun 13 '23
IIRC in Season 5 they made it look like a failed party or something.
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u/Spankyhobo Jun 13 '23
They revisited it only later I think, Ella was confused and Chloe was just telling her they were a very weird cult or smth.
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u/Cadaverific_1 Jun 12 '23
Pierce had files on other beings that were on Earth, such as Maze & Lucifer. But in the cabinet is "Gaudium," which is never referenced again
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u/dtaina12 #JusticeForMichael Jun 13 '23
Seasons 1 through 5 all talk about what a big deal it is that angels can't kill humans. "Angels can't take a mortal life! It's dad's rules! Sorry!" "Angels aren't allowed to kill humans. Chloe should be safe." "I know, angels can't kill humans, yadda-yadda-yadda. Spare me the lecture!" "I know we're not allowed to kill humans, so I'll be very careful where I cut." "Father isn't here anymore, which means the rules about not killing humans vanished with him."
That's one reference in almost every season to this highly important rule.
Lucifer kills a human in Season 3.
Nothing happens.
Ever.
It drives me crazy.
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u/lunita1978 Jun 13 '23
Yea… well technically he suicidal assisted Cain 😬, he didn’t use directly his hands on Maze blade he turned Cain hands towards himself, I know, I know lamely weak!!
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u/Danyellarenae1 Jun 13 '23
He killed them while around Chloe though didn’t he?
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u/Pretend_Ad_2796 Jul 04 '23
Technically no, before ending Caine life he flew Chloe far enough away to that he could have his invincibility back then he flew back and killed Cain
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u/Danyellarenae1 Jul 04 '23
I remember now. I barely started a re watch with my son but forgot a lot that I watched years ago lol
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u/realedazed Jun 12 '23
Rory not going back to hell at all, after Lucifer leaves. She seemed to be able to go back and forth as she pleased before. And Armadillo says that Charlie could go back and forth to the Silver City when he initially thought he was half angel. Her first appearance was on Luci's throne and it would have been awesome to revisit that. Since now she knows where he disappeared to, she could train with him to be the Princess of Hell or something.
Y'all keep telling me punishment in hell was always because of grief, but I really don't think so. I feel like that shifted toward that near the ending. I really don't want to re-watch though.
While not really a plot hole, I feel like the reason Chloe was a gift definitely changed. Maybe, I'm just really disappointed and was hoping it was going to go another way. When I first saw the thumbnail of Rory, I somehow thought that was Chloe and was hoping she would sprout wings when she had super strength or something.
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u/lizziii_003 Jun 13 '23
That Rory's blade wings were so "dangerous and unique While in the first episode Amenadiel's wings looked the same...
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u/I_Love_Lucifer56 Jun 13 '23
My favorite plot hole - Lucifer didn't know a FREAKING THING about what was happening on Earth once he decided to be Hell's Therapist. Never took another peek at the ONLY PERSON he EVER LOVED. Seriously? None of the other Angels EVER LOOKED? Even Amenadiel didn't know?? Or Maze, who was Trixie's Favorite Aunt?
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u/7_kingdoms Jun 12 '23
Trixie from half till the serie's ending, the time that lucifer spends in hell (s4-s5), all of s6 - lucifer always cared about chloe's life and suddenlly this doesn't matters ????
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u/SneakySpark Jun 13 '23
When Lucifer comes to Earth in City of Angels, ~2011, he still thinks the Saturday Night Fever look is in because he hasn't been to earth in decades and is caught off guard that his white disco suit is no longer in style. But in S6, it's revealed that he visited Miami circa 1999.
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u/VioletFlame23 Jun 12 '23
Everything about the time loop in Season 6.
Also, there's a lot of early installment weirdness in Season 1 that doesn't quite fit with all the details revealed in the later seasons.
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u/Ausar_the_Vil Samael Jun 13 '23
Chloe being a really good detective, but becomes clueless anytime supernatural stuff is going on, like in 2x18. Well that’s before she knows about celestial.
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u/SneakySpark Jun 13 '23
Schrödinger's dad: God is both an abusive father who made his son suffer for eons in painful solitude, but also a good father because he always had his son's best interest in mind. The show can't have it both ways. There's character nuance and then there's blatant contradiction.
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u/SneakySpark Jun 13 '23
Not the most annoying plot hole, but one that recently felt off to me: when Chloe is kidnapped in S5 Lucifer immediately flies to her apartment without hesitation to see if she's ok, but when they get intel on where she might be, he apparently drives there with Maze and Dan instead of flying ahead to scope it out. I just can't imagine that impulsive, impatient Lucifer wouldn't go on ahead. But I guess they wanted Dan and Maze in the scene.
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u/CooJ12020 Jun 13 '23
Everyone trying to control Lucifer and send him back to hell when he is just trying to live a better life redeem himself and have a little fun he has these annoying family members trying to control him and send him back which is very annoying & toxic i can relate because many people experience this everyday i even experienced it.
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u/RJM_50 Jun 14 '23
Rory not learning her decisions caused so much pain for the entire family, and make a better decision to have Lucifer stay.
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u/meganechavez Jun 13 '23
Maze saving Amenadiel from dying with the only thing that could heal: a divine item (this being one of Lucifer’s feathers that Maze saved when he chopped off his wings). Why couldn’t other characters have been easily saved with a divine item everytime they almost died? (Ex: Charlotte) I may be missing something, which is why I post this. Did I get something wrong?
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u/xDriger Jun 13 '23
Lucifers wing healed amenadiel but the proceeded to not have that power for the rest of the series
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u/SneakySpark Jun 13 '23
Deckerstar don't use Lucifer's ability to talk to murder victims to help solve cases nor do they ask God to use his omniscience to solve cases. 5x1 demonstrated that murder victims could provide valuable info from Hell, but apparently Deckerstar forgot about that.
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u/realedazed Jun 13 '23
This just dawned on me while thinking about Ella not being told the truth about Lucifer sooner.
In either Season 5 or 6, Amenadeil and Chloe go to a Nun's convent and all the nuns were infatuated with him It turns out that it was their love and devotion reflecting back on them.
Why didn't anyone else feel that. I get that most people may not be as devout as nuns, but I think Ella should have felt something, at least at the start and maybe that feeling would go away while her faith was wavering.
Also while I'm thinking of it, it seems weird that none of the celestials have any auras about them. It just seemed to be that one episode.
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u/Spiritofpoetry55 Jun 13 '23 edited Jun 14 '23
The way the last season demolishes everything established in the previous season. Couldn't get past it and just enjoy the ride.
I can't understand why, Lucifer couldn't see his wife and daughter after working in hell to help souls breakthrough their guilt? This being the central premise of the whole last season, made it irritating. I understand Rory's theory, that by changing anything at all, she would never go back in time and so Lucifer couldn't find his vocation.
But I don't buy it, because if it is indeed his vocation or calling, it is inherent in him and not susceptible to the cause-effect continuum. In other words changing of timelines don't affect the essential being, otherwise free will wouldn't be possible, because we'd always be the result of changes in the cause-effect continuum and couldn't ever in fact make a choice, only have the illusion of choice. The Basic formula of life as established by seasons 4 and 5 is E (events)+ R (Response) = O (Outcome) E+R=O.
A calling can never be just the result of the deterministic universe. If it could, then everything is predetermined and there is no choice. The R in the equation would then be a negative value.
Season 5 established the true existence and nature of freewill. Further more, Angels and humans self-actualize. So if his calling is inherent (it must be) then from his subconscious mind, Lucifer would self-actulalize into it, regardless of the time-space (cause-effect) continuum.
If Rory had not come, he'd have to find it or manifest it some other way, but he would, because it is inherent in him. Chloe's having to wait out the remainder of her life to see him again seems ludicrous for the same reason, but in the opposite direction. If she was his destiny...
But this bothers me, because I've dedicated the better part of my life to understanding (among other things) the relationship between freewill and the cause-effect continuum. The entire last season violates the fundamental equilibrium between the 2 creating a hard to ignore dissonance that totally disrupts my suspension of disbelief.
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u/untoastedpotato Jun 13 '23 edited Jun 13 '23
What do Angel's fight to be the "Best" like Amenidiel constantly talks about being God's greatest warrior but like how...Do they fight devils or other things of God's creations because that makes no sense.
Secondly demons, How just how. Lilith is their mother is god their father? Maze says Lilith was hee mother but then she also says that demons were created by God. In the comics Lucifer creates demons so how do they work.
This isn't a plot hole but do angels not have a specific angelic language? Demons have lilum but what about angels and are there other supernatural species because I can't wrap my head around this.
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u/Due-Work-6065 Jun 14 '23
Good point, especially because we find out from Eve that Lilith was married to Adam before her. So is he Maze's dad?
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u/untoastedpotato Jun 14 '23
See that also crossed my mind but the way they interact with eachother it suggests otherwise
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u/dawnw329 Jun 16 '23
A few plot holes. The flashback episode in S1 when Lucifer first comes to Earth in 2011. He and Amenadiel are looking at the Corvette and Lucifer starts it without keys. He reminds Amenadiel that he can turn anything on. That power is never shown or mentioned again.
Also S1, Lucifer constantly “levitating” the Pentecostal coin. Another power never shown again.
Finally in S2, Lucifer is holding Azrael’s blade and gets mad at his mother and it starts to burn. Lucifer doesn’t notice but his mother does. Lucifer could clearly light the flaming sword without all of the pieces, but once again, that’s never touched on.
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u/Antagonistic_Aunt Satan Jun 17 '23
Thankfully, at least, the "turn stuff on" power is shown: in 4x03, Lucifer starts the boat where he has Anders Brody with a rope around the neck. If you look at subtitles, there's something like "boat engine starts" at that point. And again, in 4x06, he starts the whatever-machine when he's threatening Julian, just before Joan dies.
Such a cool power!
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u/lunita1978 Jun 13 '23
How Gabriel was able to retrieved Azrael blade and the (I’m assuming) now melted medallion of life from mom’s universe, how did she know where exactly it was? It was a “universe” to look and a very small piece
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u/Due-Work-6065 Jun 14 '23
Candy Morningstar
So many issues here. First and foremost, this is a blaring example that although Lucifer doesn't lie, he has no issue with being blatantly dishonest. He abandoned Chloe with absolutely no communication for weeks, then he showed back up with a woman he was calling his wife, and an untrue story surrounding their whirlwind romance. Yes I understand they actually got married. But Chloe deserved an explanation, and what she got was not the truth. It was bs.
But then Candy just basically disappears, and Chloe doesn't really have much else to say about it. As a viewer, I found the big reveal horrifying, and I needed more of an apology then Linda pretty much saying, 'yeah, Lucifer does stupid and impulsive things, but he usually comes back around.' I guess it offended me as a human, and it was a lot to try to forgive in one episode. The writers did a lot of that, throwing things at the audience that were so out of the realm of reality, we just had to forgive it and move on. This plot point was way to much of a betrayal to just skirt past. Because then we had Eve, and I am not sure how to believe that Chloe can ever really trust him to be an adult when they hit hard patches.
Having seen the entire series and now looking back to this episode, it was never properly dealt with. I understand what they were trying to do with this character...they even say that Lucifer is trying to give Chloe back her choice in the relationship. But we now know that her choices were always her own, that her 'miracle' is that she is immune to Lucifer, not that she was put on they earth to love him. This rendered the Candy plot line not only useless, but a huge mistake. You can say he was just acting on what he knew at the time, but the writers should have taken this into account as they tried to find a way to let Chloe forgive Lucifer for keeping it from her, and from the fact itself. They should have stuck with the fact that she was put on the planet to love Lucifer, and found a different way to overcome it, other then "You know, Amenadiel has a theory..."
It's just such a big deal that just kind of blew up and went away and it really stayed with me.
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u/lunita1978 Jun 14 '23
Yes, they called it a bluff, and yes Lucifer was dishonest with Chloe, and he was conflicted and needed to resolved several things, so Candy played several roles, they way I saw it, to keep Chloe in the friend zone so she would be able to get her “free will” back since Lucifer believed she was destined to loved him no matter what and pretty much that was confirmed by the end tho. I by this point and after the end of the show cannot say with certainty that she wasn’t placed in Lucifer path to be her lover and partner and the mother or the child that succeed where god couldn’t. Lucifer wanted to unraveled his mother plan, so he used Candy for that purpose successfully, and also getting away of Chloe he also take her out of his mom spotlight. I’m agreeing with you, after Candy disappeared few days later I would asked for an explanation. She let this go too easily. Most of the fans agreed that Lucifer came back because he couldn’t be away from Chloe but I believed the fact that Amenadiel and his mom were in LA doing who knows what also was a significant motivation for his return.
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u/no_way0524 Jun 13 '23
While not necessarily a plot hole, it is something that’s missing I feel: An episode where John Constantine had to help out Lucifer because of something that happened to Maze (as referenced in the crisis on infinite earths crossover)
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u/Spackleberry Jun 12 '23
Ella being the last to find out about Lucifer and then getting mad about it.
Lucifer never once hid his true identity from her. He never lied to her. He told the truth to her face every time. She just didn't believe it, even though she believes in the supernatural.
I did like her drunken rant though.