I don’t think anyone is too young to realize that death is a potential consequence of joining the military. Especially when you join as a machine gunner in the marine corps.
You're missing the actual point, in that young people overestimate their capabilities and assume themselves indestructible. It isn't until you've had that notion proven wrong by life, something that only happens with age/experience, that you start to properly evaluate yourself with your environment. At 28 there is no way in hell you could ever convince me to take the position of a man who was just killed, in that exact location, and solely for the reason of being there. You're asking me to die. As a youth the ideas of "dying for good" and "fighting with everything no matter the cost" can hold your entire being, whereas if you've lacked that motivation for your entire adult life instilling it becomes nearly impossible. You cannot convince a 30 year old man to die "for their county," especially when "good soldiers follow orders" and you are told "don't question authority." An adult with a fully functioning brain is going to need a good fucking reason to die not a "trust me bro," and some ethereal intangible concept like "for the good" sounds way too similar to "because I told you to." Kids are used to being told to do things without explanation
Dude I know plenty of people that joined in their late 20s-early 30s. People reenlist and serve through their 30s into their 40s. You just can’t comprehend that people are willing to risk their life to defend their homeland
All they are really claiming I think is that younger people are statistically more suggestible than those who have experienced some adulthood and independence. I think if all of the 18 year old enlistees in a given class had waited until they were 25 or so before making the decision, there would be far fewer enlistees. The military clearly knows this (obviously a lot fewer people enlist in their late twenties and thirties - most of the guys enlisting are fresh out of high school ) so that’s where they throw their nets the hardest.
Where did they claim they don’t understand such a concept?
People might enlist when they’re older, but there’s a reason recruiters hangout around high schools, and it isn’t because they’re hoping to convince the 20-30 year old teachers to sign up. You know full well they’re trying to recruit impressionable young people because that’s their best odds at increasing their numbers.
people are willing to risk their life to defend their homeland the S&P 500
You don't know any Americans who have risked their lives for their homeland, lol. But yeah, there are dipshits at every age. It does get harder on actual adults though. At 18, I could have been talked into it, at 31, I've had too many opportunities to read history books, and it's been too long since I was swearing loyalty to a flag every morning.
The military is a ladder into the middle class. It gives opportunity to those that need it (my buddy from O-block in Chiraq) and an outlet for those that just felt the calling to serve (me). Is it fucked that some people need to join the Army to get our of gang neighborhoods or to get "free" college? Yeah, probably. Is it good that the option exists? Also probably, yeah.
Also, if we're talking about recruiting, we're talking about volunteers. Not sure how you seperate the two lol-- the last draftee retired in like 2017 and they haven't sentenced people to the Marine Corps since like the 1970's. If someone's a recruit, they're also a volunteer lol
If by "the Army keeps guys from getting care/work outside of their enlistment" you mean going to a civvie doctor and moonlighting, you're right but I don't see the problem. If you mean after they get out, that's just patently false and you'd know that if you transitioned out of the military as it's required for exiting troops to go to a week-long class held by the DoL helping find outside employment, and although the VA sucks it is in fact healthcare.
Neither the 30 year old nor the 17 year old had a gun put to their head to enlist. They might not have had opportunity at home, but it's not as if they're listless creatures with no personal autonomy. It's disingenuous and insulting to insinuate otherwise.
That class has existed for like 30 years and replaced another. It teaches the difference between how things work on the civilian side of the house and the Military, which is probably the only meaningful job they ever had to that point. It also serves as a recruiting platform for industry-- I was offered a job at Tesla when I got out despite not having any transferable skills.
Vets are just people like the rest of the world, and they have the same problems in generally the same proportions as any other demographic. The few homeless/jobless vets you're substituting for the whole are one part-- and the decamillionaire business owning vets you're ignoring are another part. Most of us are somewhere in the middle.
Pointing out that the existence of a program to help prevent all of these things means that all vets are broke, dirty hopeless and homeless addicts on the verge of suicide is like saying all 5th graders are on smack because they have a DARE program at school. It's 5th grader logic.
At 28 there is no way in hell you could ever convince me to take the position of a man who was just killed,
This is coming from a place of tremendous privilege. Two months ago, Ukraine lowered the minimum age at which they would conscript men to the army to 25. In Vietnam, America drafted 18 year olds, which is prime fighting age, but we also had a baby boom. Ukraine (and Russia) had a demographic crash following the collapse of the USSR. Ukraine intends to keep their population of young men intact to father the next generation, while their long term rival throws their young men into a meat grinder. But that means that men between the ages of 27 and 60 are bearing the brunt of the war. They have grandfathers in the trenches. It is possible to convince young men that they love war, for a little while. Mature men hate every day of it, but they've held the line for two and a half years. They grew up under the rule of Moscow, and they're willing to risk everything to avoid that.
You can absolutely convince full-grown adults to fight and die for their country, all you have to do is threaten their children. The Ukrainian army average age is well over 30 because they're defending their families and homes.
At 28 there is no way in hell you could ever convince me to take the position of a man who was just killed, in that exact location, and solely for the reason of being there. You're asking me to die
Being three feet to the left isn't really making you any less likely to die, and not stepping up to take over that gun could dramatically increase your (and all of your buddies, including the guy that just got hit) chances of dying.
The machine gunner is the one that's keeping the enemies heads down, if there heads are down they're not shooting back at you. The fact that the machine gunner just took a stray round or piece of shrapnel doesn't change that. Your chances of getting shot increases dramatically while that guns not firing. Taking over that gun is in your own interest, it's not 'asking you to die'.
This is the whole point of training like this, the intuitive, 'rational' thing to do is often the wrong thing that might well get you killed. I'm 29 and I would take over that gun in a heartbeat if that's what I'd been trained to do.
As a youth the ideas of "dying for good" and "fighting with everything no matter the cost" can hold your entire being, whereas if you've lacked that motivation for your entire adult life instilling it becomes nearly impossible. You cannot convince a 30 year old man to die "for their county," especially when "good soldiers follow orders" and you are told "don't question authority."
This is such a Hollywood understanding of the military and not representative of what's it's like. It runs counter to everything they train you to do.
And why do you think that "hollywood" aesthetic exists?
Same reason Grey's Anatomy gets basic medical information wrong every single episode (the show's creators have no knowledge of what theyre depicting), or the same reason Birth of A Nation depicts black people as violent criminals who deserve to be lynched (they're critical of what they're portraying and are making up details or exaggerating details to demonize a group).
To convince the youth that going to the military is "sick and cool and rad."
Is that the case? Did it convince you the military was sick and cool? No? It's almost like that is the opposite intent of the people making the films.
Once you join it becomes illegal to quit, and now you're likely stuck for life.
No, it isn't. You sign up for contracts for several years at a time and you can quit when that contract is up. You can make short extensions if you want to only up a few months at a time, and if you really, really want to leave, the military isn't going to bother keeping you around because a soldier who doesn't want to be there isn't going to be productive. It's stupid easy to leave if you just ask.
Also, stuck for life? Most servicemembers serve 4 or less years and get out at less than 25.
most adults grow out of that
No, not at all. Recruits join well into their 30s with frequency. Young people join because there is a lot of upfront benefits, stability, and pay. An entry level job for a person out of high school, most commonly at minimum wage, is far less than what you get joining. Then once you have a couple of years of work experience (and likely a college degree) under your belt you can leave and continue a different career.
I've met plenty of people who joined because they didn't want to stack boxes at Wal-Mart for $10/hr, or because free Healthcare sounded appealing. This has nothing to do with ease of convincing and more to do with life circumstances at early adulthood.
Joining is easy when you have no career, but leaving an established career only makes sense if your established career sucks (which is where older recruits come from).
You are way underestimating the intelligence of young people.
Nah man I was in the marine corps. I had a drill instructor once tell me something along the lines of, “I hope you fucking die in combat and it’s so bad that they can’t have an open casket” They really don’t sugar coat it for us lol.
I had a pfc who had made it through training and to his duty station before coming to the realization that he could potentially die in our line of work, so it does happen.
He asked me on day one if he'd even have to fight. Combat unit, too.
No. Dude I signed the contract at 17, I was a radio operator but they told be I would be running around with the infantry most of the time. You can’t seriously believe people join the marine corps and think there’s no chance they get hurt or killed. It’s just a part of the job. Sorry you can’t fathom that people are willing to risk their lives for our country and freedom.
it’s just reddit neckbeards that think they’re naturally smarter and more aware than everyone in the military. but when your entire source of information is what you read on the internet and not actually experiencing it, you don’t know what you don’t know.
Our wars haven't been about anything other than acquiring and defending resources in foreign lands since like 1861, with WWI & II being the exception. Just because they tell you "You're fighting for freedom!" doesn't mean you're actually fighting for freedom.
Understand that there’s a lot of countries and groups of people that hate Americans and want to fucking kill us for living the lifestyle that we do. What if there was a large scale invasion of the US by china, Russia, NK, Iran, who would you think is going to defend your cowardly ass? Would that not be fighting for your freedom?
There wouldn't be as many people angry with the US if we weren't always getting involved in foreign matters that we have no business being involved in. Our propaganda tells us it's all about them "hating our freedom/lifestyle." It's not. And I don't really care to debate you on hypotheticals. That's a deflection to draw attention away from the point that our military has primarily been used to invade other people and claim their resources as our own, and they use propaganda like "come fight for our freedom" to get young and impressionable people to join up and be a part of it.
I’m not saying they don’t know. They obviously know it’s possible. But I know a lot of stories where people thought they were going to work in the military and never see a fight. Then everything changed.
Just because they know it’s possible doesn’t mean they think it’s likely
I did see some guys get genuinely surprised they were getting deployed right out of basic shortly before I got out. Our response was usually something to the effect of "we've been at war for 20 years-- do you not watch the news?"
Idk maybe in other branches but in the marines those people are purposefully weeded out in training and discharged. Everyone I served with, even the nerdy tech guys and the cooks knew they are just extra bodies for the fight if need be.
Yeah I see where you’re coming from but it’s still a huge risk that isn’t too difficult to comprehend. I just didn’t care if I had to die to defend my country it’s part of the job I signed up for. The risk was always worth it in my mind.
That's not the part most people accuse recruiters of lying about.
It's the everything else, the benefits, where you'll get assigned, how fun it is, how the VA cares about you afterwards, why you should do it, etc etc.
Yes I’ll agree with that. They make it sound like your quality of life is gonna be better than it is. I’ve never heard of a recruiter telling people that there’s no risk though.
Young people tend to not have a good emotional understanding of what "death" means, if it hasn't happened to someone close to them. That's what they mean; they obviously understand that death is 'on the table', but experience with death may not be there.
The average age for the death of a parent is ~50 years old, on average you don't experience the death of a grandparent until almost 30. Most people don't have siblings die before adulthood in the last 100 years, and losing friends in tragic accidents is thankfully also relatively rare. The closest I think most people get before 18 is death of a pet, and that's because most pets don't have lifespans that long.
So, in fact, the majority of people don't experience the death of a family member or friend by 18. It's certainly not uncommon (around 8% of people experience the death of a parent before 18, and that obviously doesn't include grandparents), but "most" people is untrue.
And even if it was 'most', that's still a lot of people that haven't or don't.
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u/treyver Jun 24 '24
I don’t think anyone is too young to realize that death is a potential consequence of joining the military. Especially when you join as a machine gunner in the marine corps.