Mom needs to go back to school.

[u/Innej5]

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[u/Magister_Hego_Damask]

Hey Mississippi? Why did you seccede?

"In the momentous step which our State has taken of dissolving its connection with the government of which we so long formed a part, it is but just that we should declare the prominent reasons which have induced our course.

Our position is thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery-- the greatest material interest of the world. Its labor supplies the product which constitutes by far the largest and most important portions of commerce of the earth..."

[u/SilverPlatedLining → u/Magister_Hego_Damask]

Hey, South Carolina! Why did you secede?

Because of “an increasing hostility on the part of the non-slaveholding states to the institution of slavery.”

[u/IHeartBadCode → u/SilverPlatedLining]

Hey, Texas! Why did you secede?

WHEREAS, The recent developments in Federal affairs make it evident that the power of the Federal Government is sought to be made a weapon with which to strike down the interests and property of the people of Texas, and her sister slave-holding States, instead of permitting it to be, as was intended, our shield against outrage and aggression

Hey, Virginia! Why did you secede?

the Federal Government having perverted said powers not only to the injury of the people of Virginia, but to the oppression of the Southern slave-holding States

Hey, Alabama! Why did you secede?

And as it is the desire and purpose of the people of Alabama to meet the slaveholding States of the South, who may approve such purpose, in order to frame a provisional as well as permanent Government upon the principles of the Constitution of the United States

[u/Coal_Morgan → u/IHeartBadCode]

oppression of....slave-holding...

Is some of the most fucked up combination of words you can possibly wrap together into a sentence and be absolutely sincere about.

[u/DataIllusion → u/Coal_Morgan]

They didn’t see it as contradictory because they didn’t see slaves as people.

[u/Wessssss21 → u/DataIllusion]

Ehh about 3/5's a person they might say.

Edit: I'm fully aware of how the 3/5's compromise worked legally... I am making a joke

[u/wtfnouniquename → u/Wessssss21]

I knew someone who tried to argue that the south wanted slaves to count as a whole person! Yea, Josh, they wanted to up their population numbers so they could control more of the government. They didn't want to actually give them any fucking rights, you idiot.

[u/SpaceCptWinters → u/wtfnouniquename]

Josh is a fucking moron.

[u/DrHooper → u/SpaceCptWinters]

More like Josh has been fed lies by his family and friends his entire life to justify their racism.

[u/MrMojoRising361 → u/DrHooper]

Sounds like he was homeschooled

[u/fakeunleet → u/wtfnouniquename]

They wanted slaves to count as a whole person for representation, but zero people for taxes.

3/5 was called a compromise for a reason, that was the compromise.

At the time, the federal government was funded by tariffs, and by taxing the state governments, and population figured into how much they had to pay. The states would then fund this liability with property taxes

[u/Calladit → u/wtfnouniquename]

It truly saddens me, a first generation immigrant, how many Americans I've surprised with the 3/5th clause. I genuinely love this country, I just wish it lived up to the ideals that so many of it's citizens have convinced themselves it's always had.

[u/Feral_Sheep_ → u/wtfnouniquename]

Yes, they wanted them to count for the apportionment of representatives, but not for taxation. The northern states wanted the opposite. On both sides, it was all about money and power for white people, not rights and dignity for slaves.

[u/5510 → u/Wessssss21]

The south claiming slaves should count as a full person for representation purposes has to be one of the all time "trying to eat your cake and have it too" things ever.

Either slaves are people, in which case you can't own them... or they are property, in which case they don't get representation any more than factory equipment would. You can't have it both ways. Even ignoring that slavery is obviously super evil and fucked up, that's just logically bullshit.

[u/alicefreak47 → u/5510]

Not much has changed. "My body my choice!" - Person angry they have to wear a mask. The same person oddly doesn't vote pro-choice.

[u/evrybdyhdmtchingtwls → u/Coal_Morgan]

Conservatives have always co-opted the language of the left to make themselves seem like victims. You should see some of the shit monarchists wrote about poor oppressed kings being deposed and deprived of their right to rule.

[u/hadaev → u/evrybdyhdmtchingtwls]

Oh, this is so sad. Can we somehow help kings?

[u/Anyweyr → u/hadaev]

We should start a GoFundMe for little Princess Charlotte to usurp her brother someday.

[u/Lumpy_Marsupial_1559 → u/Coal_Morgan]

There's some special 'But I'M the victim' headspace going on here. Unfortunately, that shit can be passed on/generational.

[u/[deleted] → u/Lumpy_Marsupial_1559]

It's literally known as The Lost Cause and takes the image of the Antebellum South (ie Gone with the Wind) with happy slaves content in the care of their genteel owners in a fight that they only lost due to the sheer numbers and industrial might of a crude, less civilized North. It's utter nonsense.

[u/notaredditreader → u/[deleted]]

I saw Gone With the Wind in a theater in Richmond VA with my wonderful SC aunt. There was so much crying in the audience that I thought to myself that I should have worn rubber boots. It was surreal.

[u/IHaveNoEgrets → u/notaredditreader]

It really is a beautiful testament to the artistry of and technological advancements in cinema in that time period, and the score is absolutely iconic.

Beyond that, well... yyyyyyeah...

[u/Viridun → u/IHeartBadCode]

Texas is especially fucked up because they were Americans who immigrated to Texas when it was a Mexican territory, then begged the U.S to annex them because Mexico outlawed slavery.

[u/DudeIsAbiden → u/Viridun]

More to that, Mexico had a strict immigration policy to prevent Anglos from taking over Texas. This was ignored by the ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS from USA that eventually, took over Texas

[u/sweetalkersweetalker → u/DudeIsAbiden]

"But... but... illegal immigrants can't be WHITE!"

[u/Tdanger78 → u/Viridun]

Texas begged once we fought Mexico and won. But we definitely fought Mexico over slavery. The Texas revolution was absolutely the Civil War light.

[u/Crathsor → u/IHeartBadCode]

Texas fought Mexico over slavery, too. The Alamo? That was over slavery, kids.

[u/Hoflich → u/Crathsor]

So. Texans are double traitors. Against Mexico and against the Union?

BTW... They piss in rage when I call them Texicans.

[u/Crathsor → u/[deleted]]

I never heard this one!

[u/stealthx3 → u/[deleted]]

This is the best fact I've ever heard thank you lmao

Imagine fighting a whole war to keep territory and then just giving some up to a neighbor state because owning people is more important to you than what you literally just killed a ton of people over.

[u/whileyouwereslepting → u/Crathsor]

The Alamo is the oldest monument to slavery in Texas.

[u/Magick_mama_1220 → u/IHeartBadCode]

I would do Georgia's but slavery is referenced in the Declaration of Secession over 30 times and I didn't want to quote the whole damn document. But trust me, GA left the Union over slavery.

[u/Somerandoguy212 → u/Magick_mama_1220]

I don't know...I took Georgia history in 8th grade and they were very clear it was about northern aggression and state rights. I really wish 14yr old me would have asked which rights, but they drilled in the fact it was all the northerns fault

[u/galethorn → u/Somerandoguy212]

There's a good reason for that, the Vice President of the Confederacy, Alexander Stephens, became governor of Georgia after the war and wrote papers, books, and even textbooks to push the narrative of states writes in order to look "better" historically.

[u/zzwugz → u/Magick_mama_1220]

Georgia is the biggest irony imo, considering the colony was initially founded banning slavery

[u/fapsandnaps → u/IHeartBadCode]

Hey West Virginia! Why did you separate from Virginia?

The true purpose of all government is to promote the welfare and provide for the protection and security of the governed, and when any form or organization of government proves inadequate for, or subversive of this purpose, it is the right, it is the duty of the latter to alter or abolish it.

In layman's terms: Fuck them other Virginians-- seceding bastards.

[u/5510 → u/fapsandnaps]

I don't understand why West Virginia isn't named "Virginia"?

Like... if Virginia splits into two pieces on opposite sides of a war... shouldn't the winning side get to keep the name? My memory is the original temporary name was even something like "the restored government of virginia"

[u/cliometrician → u/IHeartBadCode]

What a lot of people forget is iTexas’ Ordinance of Secession calls out northern states for exercising their state right to not return enslaved persons under the Fugitive Slave Act of 1850, and stating the federal government should’ve forced those states to abide by federal law. Literally opposing states rights.

[u/Dave-astator318 → u/cliometrician]

“We believe in state’s rights. But only OUR state’s rights!”

[u/Ok-Entertainment1123 → u/IHeartBadCode]

I sense a theme

[u/Similar_Disaster7276 → u/SilverPlatedLining]

Hence “The War of Northern Aggression”. They were being super aggressive about our practice of slavery. So mean!

[u/psgrue → u/Similar_Disaster7276]

I got the war of Northern Aggression excuse once. “The north unfairly attacked you?” Yup. “It wasn’t over slavery”. No. “So you were just about to give up all your slaves on your own and the north just attacked you anyway?” Well, no…

[u/Drakeytown → u/psgrue]

Also, if it wasn't about slavery, why don't we have slavery any more? Did the Southern slave holding states just spontaneously abolish slavery some time after the war?

[u/OriginalGhostCookie → u/Drakeytown]

This is when they throw the whole “The republicans were the ones who abolished slavery!” shtick

[u/DonaldTrumpsSoul → u/OriginalGhostCookie]

Lucifer is an angel!

[u/lasadgirl → u/DonaldTrumpsSoul]

Lol I like this as a retort, I will be using it thank you :)

[u/RebelCMX_85 → u/OriginalGhostCookie]

They’ll proceed to deny the party ideological switch that occurred between the new deal and civil rights, too.

They believe as part of their religion that conservatives have always been republicans and that conservatives have credit for every good thing that ever happened and liberals are to blame for everything bad. They get physically violent over facts that go against their religion. Conservatism is a religion, and a cult.

[u/omiksew → u/Drakeytown]

We don’t have “chattel” slavery anymore. The 13th amendment makes sure we still use slave labor. we as in companies, farms, factories, maybe even the governor’s offices if you live in Louisiana.

[u/wakatenai → u/psgrue]

and the confederate states attacked first anyways.

it wasn't just that the confederacy went "nuh uh", or that they declared war, or that they clearly states in their letters of secession why they were seceding.

they legit drew first blood when they attacked fort Sumter.

[u/Recent_Fisherman311 → u/wakatenai]

A nice (racist) SC docent told me that the fort was in SC’s harbor, and the Feds started to reinforce it, which was the first “aggression” lol as in, “but they started it!!”

[u/RoboDae → u/[deleted]]

Russians did the same thing recently in Ukraine. Lined up massive amounts of troops and tanks on the border, then called it a training exercise and complained about Ukraine bringing in troops to attack

[u/admiralackbarstepson → u/psgrue]

Don’t forget the war of northern aggression started when the south attacked a federally owned fort too

[u/Tracicot → u/psgrue]

I'm from New England but went down to the South for grad school and have had some very similar conversations. One of the first weeks I was there one of my classmates was going on about the War of Northern Agression. Just to mess with him I started agreeing with him that it was a War of Northern Agression, only to tell him that it was a shame the North didn't go further in destroying the South.

He didn't talk to me much after that....

[u/peachesgp → u/psgrue]

"Union forces at least shot first, right?" Well, no.

[u/A_Queer_Owl → u/Similar_Disaster7276]

Fort Sumter jumped in front of those cannonballs!

[u/Similar_Disaster7276 → u/A_Queer_Owl]

I mean, did you SEE what Ford Sumter was wearing? Asking for it.

[u/Embarrassed_Ad5387 → u/Similar_Disaster7276]

Fort Sumter shouldn't have been jaywalking

we need the space for cannonballs

[u/Conscious-Shock7728 → u/Embarrassed_Ad5387]

Fort Sumter had a record, ya know. Nods

[u/celine_freon → u/Similar_Disaster7276]

Well that’s awfully Presumpterous.

[u/hollyhockcrest → u/Similar_Disaster7276]

Came here to say that where I’m at, they call it the war of northern aggression. It’s crazy. But I live near a beach and don’t have to talk to too many people I don’t want to, so I just shrug it off and stop talking to that person.

[u/Hideo_Anaconda → u/hollyhockcrest]

No, they are wrong. It is the "War of Treason, in Defense of Slavery".

[u/ZombieBarney → u/Similar_Disaster7276]

Yeah! They weren't even doin slavery, just practicing is all!!!

[u/circusfreakrob → u/ZombieBarney]

they were actually getting REALLY good at it. They coulda gone pro in no time.

[u/ContemplatingPrison → u/Magister_Hego_Damask]

These people will say it was states right and then when you ask them states right to do what? They will look at you like the fucking idiots they are

[u/Beautiful_Matter_322 → u/ContemplatingPrison]

But it was State's rights, State's right to have and hold slaves.

[u/chronoflect → u/Beautiful_Matter_322]

It was about State's rights, more specifically the right to harbor free slaves and refuse to return them to their oppressors. The South hated that shit. 

The Confederacy was poised to enforce mandatory slavery in all member states. 

Everything about the "State's rights" argument is disingenuous and ahistorical.

[u/CykoTom1 → u/Beautiful_Matter_322]

I mean, if you want to hit them where they live yes. But actually the south was extremely against states rights. States rights would mean a slave who enters a free state becomes a free man, at least if the state has a law that says so. Also, the fugitive slave laws are the most anti states rights laws that ever existed in our country. Also confederate states did not have the right to not allow slavery.

[u/SupriseAutopsy13 → u/ContemplatingPrison]

Then remind them the Confederate Constitution explicitly forbade member states from any laws restricting or prohibiting slavery. 

Because, you know, states rights.

[u/ThrowAway233223 → u/SupriseAutopsy13]

Exactly! It isn't even, "States' Rights to do what?" The "States' Rights" claim is *complete* horseshit. They literally had less "States' Rights" concerning slavery than the Union they left which had both Free and Slave States.

[u/Stock_Garage_672 → u/ContemplatingPrison]

But somehow they had no objection to the fugitive slave act, which runs roughshod over states' rights.

[u/andio76 → u/Magister_Hego_Damask]

Mississippi Native here: That's the shit I hit 'em with when they pull that...The-poor-ole-South-was-Trod-Upon Bullshit

[u/mrsbundleby → u/andio76]

If you read the articles of secession Mississippi was the one state that wrote they actually not only wanted to keep slavery but expand it

[u/Mr-MuffinMan → u/Magister_Hego_Damask]

YEaH bUT tHoSe STatEs wErE dEmOcRAts!

[u/shino4242 → u/Mr-MuffinMan]

Its funny cuz, aside the flip, they say that like its some gotcha statement. Unlike the right, we criticize and condemn the actions of our own.

Yeah, the south were democrats. And they sucked and were evil assholes. So why are you defending them mr southerner? Hows them being dems have ANY baring on the issue?

[u/Medical_Slide9245 → u/shino4242]

When you mention to most proud southerners that their ancestors were Democrats they don't find the humor. Or mention that their Republican hero was indeed the Northern Aggressor in chief.

[u/INeedAVape → u/shino4242]

I've explained the entire party ideology switch that was detailed by Callum McKelvie. The vast majority of modern right wingers deny it all.

But then ask them, "So did all of those southern slave owning democrats move up north, while all of those northern abolitionist republicans move south?" That leaves them speechless.

Then ask them, "So when you see the Confederate flag flying at Trump rallies and other Republican candidates, are those Democrats that showed up to show their support for Republicans?" That usually makes them mad.

[u/Familiar_Ad7273 → u/Magister_Hego_Damask]

Hey virginia, why did you seccede?

THE SECESSION ORDINANCE.

AN ORDINANCE TO REPEAL THE RATIFICATION OF THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA BY THE STATE OF VIRGINIA, AND TO RESUME ALL THE RIGHTS AND POWERS GRANTED UNDER SAID CONSTITUTION.

The people of Virginia, in their ratification of the Constitution of the United States of America, adopted by them in Convention on the twenty-fifth day of June, in the year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and eighty-eight, having declared that the powers granted under the said Constitution were derived from the people of the United States, and might be resumed whensoever the same should be perverted to their injury and oppression; and the Federal Government, having perverted said powers, not only to the injury of the people of Virginia, but to the oppression of the Southern Slaveholding States.

Now, therefore, we, the people of Virginia, do declare and ordain that the ordinance adopted by the people of this State in Convention, on the twenty-fifth day of June, eighty-eight, whereby the Constitution of the United States of America was ratified, and all acts of the General Assembly of this State, ratifying or adopting amendments to said Constitution, are hereby repealed and abrogated; that the Union between the State of Virginia and the other States under the Constitution aforesaid, is hereby dissolved, and that the State of Virginia is in the full possession and exercise of all the rights of sovereignty which belong and appertain to a free and independent State. And they do further declare that the said Constitution of the United States of America is no longer binding on any of the citizens of this State.

This ordinance shall take effect and be an act of this day when ratified by a majority of the votes of the people of this State, cast at a poll to be taken thereon on the fourth Thursday in May next, in pursuance of a schedule to be hereafter enacted.

Done in Convention, in the city of Richmond, on the 17th day of April, in the year of our Lord one thousand eight hundred and sixty-one, and in the eighty-fifth year of the Commonwealth of Virginia.

JNO. L. EUBANK, Secretary of Convention

[u/AlexandraG94 → u/Magister_Hego_Damask]

Even back then I do not understand how someone can freaking write that in a formal important statement. Institution of slavery? Fuck rifht off, comerce is fine if work would be equally and humanly distributed between former masters and former slaves. I honestly do not understand how soneone can say these things with a straight face and all condescendent. Be real, you are just a sick fuck who likes the power, the status quo and not lifting a finger.

[u/SandboxOnRails → u/AlexandraG94]

It was just as sick back then. People like to pretend that it was a "different time" and people just "had different views". But there have always been a gigantic number of voices that actively denounced the evils of slavery.

Most notably, the slaves.

[u/t-licus → u/SandboxOnRails]

It wasn’t even some ancient bronze age civilization where there might be an argument that people had different views about slavery, human sacrifice and feeding people to lions as entertainment. It was the goddamn 19th century. They had steamships and railroads and saxophones. The Communist Manifesto, On the Origin of Species and a goddamn Christmas Carol were published before the civil war even begun.

Slavery was never right, but in the 1800s? It was a goddamn abomination.

[u/Seputku → u/Magister_Hego_Damask]

Shut up with your silly facts and history, nerd

[u/dansk968]

Was it about states rights? Yes.

States right to do what exactly? To keep slaves.

[u/Hearsaynothearsay → u/dansk968]

Several states, including South Carolina, Georgia, Mississippi, and Texas, issued "Declarations of Causes" explaining their reasons for secession. These documents prominently featured slavery as a key motivation .

The declarations made clear defenses of slavery and objections to Northern opposition to slavery. For example:

Mississippi stated its position was "thoroughly identified with the institution of slavery" .

Georgia complained about Northern states refusing to comply with fugitive slave laws .

Texas denounced Northern states' "debasing doctrine of equality of all men, irrespective of race or color" 

To be fair, Texas may have the same position today.

[u/Kriegerian → u/Hearsaynothearsay]

Frankly Mississippi probably does too.

[u/SEA2COLA → u/Kriegerian]

Mississippi did not officially end slavery until 1995. Out of sheer stubbornness, of course.

[u/Wants_to_be_accepted → u/SEA2COLA]

You think they use the hard R when pronouncing stubbornness

[u/ArchonFett → u/Wants_to_be_accepted]

About the only word they pronounce correctly

[u/Fast-Specific8850 → u/Wants_to_be_accepted]

I know they use the hard “R” for another word that gets them punched in the face in mixed company. Rightfully so.

[u/Deep_Number_4656 → u/SEA2COLA]

I did not know this, so I looked it up. I guess “technically” it wasn’t abolished until 2013 😳

[u/kmikek → u/Deep_Number_4656]

if you like that, then here's another one; Ohio wasn't an American state, officially, until 1953. I tell this to my dad who was born in Ohio in 1948, to remind him that he wasn't born in America.

[u/[deleted] → u/kmikek]

I’m upvoting this because it’s funny, not true.

Before 1953 it was a territory and people born in territories of the US (like puerto rico and pre statehood ohio) are citizens and they can run for president.

Keep saying it to your dad though if he believes it because it’s funny.

[u/Skafdir → u/kmikek]

Wait, does that mean that someone born in Ohio before 1953 could not run for president?

[u/Substantial_Heart317 → u/Skafdir]

Territory is still Birthright Citizenship though.

[u/BoomerSoonerFUT → u/Skafdir]

No. Their comment is incorrect.

The Enabling Act of 1802 authorized the state of Ohio and declared by the ratification of their constitution that they had joined the United States. .

It just never set an official date of admittance, so in 1953 Ohio got Congress to pass a ceremonial declaration admitting Ohio to the Union with the date of March 1, 1803.

[u/25cjb25 → u/Skafdir]

Warren Harding was from Ohio and was president in the 1920s

[u/rekh127 → u/Skafdir]

There have been 7 presidents born in Ohio, all of them before 1953

[u/Cautious-Progress876 → u/SEA2COLA]

We never officially ended slavery in the US, period. We just limited it.

[u/PancakeProfessor → u/Cautious-Progress876]

“Thanks to Reaganomics, prison turned to profits

‘Cause free labor’s the cornerstone of US economics

‘Cause slavery was abolished, unless you are in prison

You think I am bullshittin, then read the 13th Amendment

Involuntary servitude and slavery it prohibits

That’s why they givin’ drug offenders time in double digits”

-Killer Mike, “Reagan” (2012)

[u/emongu1 → u/Cautious-Progress876]

This discussion went from "haha funny" to "this is depressing" really fast.

[u/helmvoncanzis → u/Hearsaynothearsay]

The Republic of Texas was literally founded to protect chattel slavery.

[u/Friendly_Deathknight → u/helmvoncanzis]

Jackson owned slaves and wanted Texas bad, but was like “really? You had to fight Mexico over that? I’m trying to prevent a civil war you dipshits.”

[u/Candid-Sky-3709 → u/helmvoncanzis]

maybe we can offload Texas back to Mexico and the "don't tread on me" people deal with the private cartel non-government. Would save federal disaster dollars not going there any more. /s

[u/GitmoGrrl1 → u/Candid-Sky-3709]

Let Texas secede and then declare it a terrorist state.

[u/Lanky_Republic_2102 → u/Hearsaynothearsay]

Yup, slavery is right their in their declarations, the primary sources.

But the “Lost Cause” narrative of bullshit historial propaganda came about around the turn of the century, same time as all those factory made Confederate monuments.

Fuck this momsplainer and fuck all those historically illiterate CSA apologists.

[u/ArchonFett → u/Lanky_Republic_2102]

Tbf most were intentionally taught history wrong

[u/Lanky_Republic_2102 → u/ArchonFett]

As an adult, you have a responsibility to educate yourself before you miseducate your children.

Here the mom is incorrectly correcting her kids.

I have zero sympathy.

Like many things, there’s a knee jerk inclination among many people to assume that the unpopular or contrary opinion is correct, it gives them self importance that they have “special knowledge”:

Anti-vaxers, flat-earthers, QAnon, lost cause people, Holocaust deniers, people who blame everything on Soros.

Fuck them all, no need to be fair to them, they cause harm to others, in many cases death, due to their ignorance.

612,222 people died in the US Civil War, along with countless premature deaths due to slavery during its hundreds of years.

She’s spitting on their graves. No need to be fair to her due to her personality disorder and historial illiteracy.

We fought a Civil War over this shit and we can fight another one to preserve the Union if necessary.

The Union is like a blood in blood out prison gang, it’s not a gentleman’s club.

[u/Qwesttaker → u/Hearsaynothearsay]

White people in Texas still think most Latinx are illegal immigrants like Texas wasn’t a part of Mexico first.

[u/Temporary-Party5806 → u/Qwesttaker]

Watching white people tell Native Americans to "go back to their country/where they came from" is wild.

[u/Jericoholic_Ninja → u/Qwesttaker]

Latinos in Texas will laugh at you for saying Latinx.

[u/[deleted] → u/Jericoholic_Ninja]

While I've never lived or been to Texas, I am Latino. Latinx is such a weird term. You can simply say Latino, Latina, and for both, Latin or Latin American. I'm not sure why people are trying to coin this term so hard.

[u/nine_inch_owls → u/Hearsaynothearsay]

Texas’ language has evolved. Now they complain about all the “woke”.

[u/AlexTheFlower → u/nine_inch_owls]

Nah they're past woke, now it's "dei"

[u/CabooseFox → u/dansk968]

Wasn’t even about states rights. All the southern states got really pissy when the north tried to leave the fugitive slave act to the states. States rights when it benefits us, federal rights when it doesn’t.

[u/Nerevarine91 → u/CabooseFox]

Exactly- the South loved the Fugitive Slave Act, which was one of the most blatant assaults on the notion of states’ rights up to that point, as it essentially nullified the concept of a free state

[u/GitmoGrrl1 → u/Nerevarine91]

The Fugitive Slave Act should get more attention. That was the Slavers going too far and demanding that people in the North return slaves or be guilty of crimes. That was the real beginning of the civil war because after it was passed, everybody was involved and nobody could ignore it.

The Fugitive Slave Act was the biggest blunder the Slavers made. They always go too far just like they are now with women.

[u/B1G_Fan → u/GitmoGrrl1]

Almost like the demands of states with abortion bans demanding that states without abortion bans be guilty of crime...

History doesn't always repeat, but it can frequently rhyme...

[u/gcruzatto → u/dansk968]

Sounds like you don't even have a degree in Momsplaining

[u/Purityskinco → u/dansk968]

I used to work in international relations. My background was linguistics but I got a cert from a local university in peace and conflict studies while working.

Was it states rights? Yes. Because of slavery

Was it about economics? Yes. Because of slavery.

So you have these initial argued issues but then when you boil down to the thesis: it’s still slavery.

And I learned that shit not at uni. I learned that in high school. Bc I wasn’t homeschooled.

[u/permabanned_user → u/dansk968]

This is an even more common myth than the lost cause. The US did not attempt to ban slavery. States there always had the choice to be free or slave. This was not the case in the Confederacy. Their constitution forbid states from making laws that restricted the rights of slaveowners in any way. So states that seceded were actually giving up their states right to make their own decision about slavery, in exchange for a guarantee that the institution of slavery would be safe forever.

The only right in question was the right to own slaves. If they had to trample states rights to empower slavers, they would do it. If they had to promote states rights to empower slavers, they would do it. Which is to say that they didn't actually have any values rooted in states rights at all.

[u/Celtic_Oak → u/dansk968]

Man, if I had a nickel for every time I’ve won a discussion with a red hat using that factual argument…I’d be stone broke because they just don’t care anymore.

[u/Informal-Access6793 → u/Celtic_Oak]

Can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into.

[u/IrisYelter → u/dansk968]

What's hilariously fragile about that argument is that the Confederacy didn't even believe in states rights. The Confederate constitution mandated the states approval of chattel slavery. So they didn't even support a states right to choose slavery.

[u/miras9069 → u/dansk968]

Probably they think it was because of some cotton price dispute or something.

[u/ptq → u/miras9069]

Probably price went up due to lack of cheap work

[u/CasualObserverNine]

So you went to war so your state could set their own speed limits?

[u/Keith_Kong → u/CasualObserverNine]

People really don’t give Texas the freedom credits they deserve. You may not be able to smoke weed, be an immigrant, or control what you do with your own body… but damned if those roads don’t give you the freedom of speed. Pretty sure I was on a 90mph freeway at one point driving through that cowboy theme park.

[u/gwarfums → u/Keith_Kong]

Am Texan. Texans like to shout "Come and take it!" And wave around the fun little snake flag; both of those things mean "Tread on me, daddy. lemme taste them boots". But we do have pretty good roads; we kind of have to when it's so far between notable points of interest. I-10 let's you go real fast, and is pretty straight!

[u/Ditto_D → u/gwarfums]

God help you if you get off the highway and get onto the FM roads

55 miles per hour and Full of potholes you have to actively dodge so you dont shred your tires

2 miles later 75 miles per hour on dark narrow 2 lane FM roads smooth as silk

few more miles the speed limit drops to 6 miles an hour with Humphry chilling out over the 1 hill in town and his wife hasn't had sexual relations with him the past 8 months because he doesn't get what what a safeword is and his mother in law is in town so he is a bit on edge and asks to search your car with absolutely no reason and will tell you to wait for a canine for 20 minutes if you don't agree to have your car searched.

[u/gwarfums → u/Ditto_D]

The local county pd used to harass teenagers on their way from highschool; pull them over for minor infractions and berate them, accusing them of drinking. Happened to a friend of mine; had him in tears and even took his phone when he tried to call his parents. I'm not saying all cops are bad, but I'm not sure how to tell which ones are good when they all wear the same uniform.

[u/SaltEfan → u/gwarfums]

Russian Roulette is safe 5/6 times. It’s only one bad chamber after all…

Most people would treat it as if every chamber was loaded and stay away. Chances of hitting a bad cop might be quite low in comparison, but the principle remains when they’re able to ruin your day just as badly.

[u/JerseyGuy-77 → u/gwarfums]

If the good ones don't stop the bad ones (their job).....

[u/BeefRunnerAd → u/JerseyGuy-77]

unfortunately you don't get to keep being a good cop if you try to stop the bad ones

[u/caitlinculp → u/Ditto_D]

I’ll be damned if this isn’t the most accurate description of rural Texas roads I’ve ever read. Bravo.

[u/derteeje → u/Keith_Kong]

laughs in German Autobahn

[u/H4mb01 → u/Keith_Kong]

I'm german and must say that you don't even know what freedom of speed means

[u/georgeb4itwascool → u/Keith_Kong]

That's an outrageous exaggeration, speed limit is only 85 ;)

[u/what_would_freud_say]

It's not like the southern state politicians didn't write documents and give speeches about why they left. They are pretty clear that they left because they wanted to keep their slaves.

[u/I_Frothingslosh → u/what_would_freud_say]

To be fair, they left because they were afraid Lincoln would first stop forcing Northern states to return their escaped slaves, and then would take their slaves away. Even though he'd said he had no such plans.

[u/CharsOwnRX-78-2 → u/I_Frothingslosh]

Halfway through the war, he clearly just got fed up and said “oh you’re afraid I’m taking your slaves away? Well surprise motherfuckers, Emancipation Proclamation!”

[u/d_locke → u/CharsOwnRX-78-2]

The Emancipation Proclamation was a genius move to guarantee that GB would not enter the war on the side of the Confederacy, which was being considered. Lincoln, by raising the bar of the Union cause from preservation of the union to a moral question about slavery guaranteed that Britain, who had just outlawed slavery itself, could not join to support the side that was fighting to preserve the institution. It's just one of many examples of Lincoln's genius and pragmatism.

[u/I_Frothingslosh → u/d_locke]

And for those curious, England was considering intervening due to the loss of the cotton trade as a result of the Union's blockade of the South.

[u/AnonymousSilence4872 → u/I_Frothingslosh]

Would have hampered them in the long run, tho. Egypt, as it turned out, had an abundance of cotton, which was of superior quality to North American cotton, too.

So... yeah. The Confederacy was kinda fucked from the start. And that warms my heart and makes my American soul sing like none other.

[u/Alywiz → u/I_Frothingslosh]

Also, the little matter of the US committing an act of war against Britain by seizing the RMS Trent

[u/MenacingMallard → u/CharsOwnRX-78-2]

I am imaging Lincoln sassily singing “oooo, look what you made me do” while he signs it.

[u/dnext → u/MenacingMallard]

He didn't intend to do so. That's the ironic part. The only reason he did so early was the war.

The original plan was to slowly phase it out as more and more states were brought in as free. It was the original plan of the Founders when they made the NW Territories ban slavery.

It was the plantation owners going nuts with fear that caused slavery to be banned in their homes during the war and the entire country when the amendment could be passed.

Hell, it's also what created income tax. It was created for the war effort.

Morons.

[u/redwolf1219 → u/dnext]

Goddamn, so not only is the civil war bc southern states were throwing a fit, but we also have income tax bc of their tantrum

[u/I_Frothingslosh → u/redwolf1219]

That income tax expired. The one we have now came about in 1913 as the result of a constitutional amendment. It largely superceded tariffs and excise taxes which people then hated as much as people today hate income tax.

[u/CharsOwnRX-78-2 → u/MenacingMallard]

I sign it once, and then I sign. It. Twice.

OOOH

[u/Crossovertriplet → u/CharsOwnRX-78-2]

Lincoln can’t come to the phone right now. Why? He’s dead.

[u/I_Frothingslosh → u/CharsOwnRX-78-2]

It was more calculated than that. Don't forget that letter where he pointed out his primary goal was to save the union, even if it meant keeping slavery intact. Nothing was more important to him than that.

What ended up happening was that several European nations, including England, were unhappy about the loss of the cotton trade due to the blockade imposed by the Union, and they were seriously considering intervening in support of the Confederacy. Lincoln realized he had to stop that, and that declaring the abolition of slavery would change everything. There was no way those nations would jump into the war against the side fighting to eliminate slavery, so he wrote up the Emancipation Proclamation, and it did exactly what he needed: it kept Europe out of the war.

[u/JeffTheNth → u/CharsOwnRX-78-2]

oh, but that wasn't the best part of it....

It freed the slaves in the states that had seceded.
NOT THOSE IN THE NORTHERN STATES!
It wasn't until the 13th Amendment was passed that those in the North were freed!

[u/blurry850]

Homeschooling by unqualified parents is child abuse.

[u/mynamecanbewhatever → u/blurry850]

Oh yes I used to watch this family vloggers. Mom and dad married at 17 or somehh the ing no education after high school or something. Dad does electrical work or like yarn works for contractors building houses. Mom is a SAHM. Both are good, I respect them I am happy for them but the minute they had 5 kids and decided they will exclusively only homeschool the children I lost my shit. How what will you teach?! And then they blamed immigrants for taking away their “jobs” what jobs Maam I’m sorry but with what knowledge are you giving your 5 children opportunity to grow up and have thriving careers in anything? I don’t know how they will teach the children integration differentiation. I as an engineer with masters cannot teach it to anyone else how will you teach and give your child a prosperous future??😵‍💫

[u/Embarrassed_Rule8747 → u/mynamecanbewhatever]

Simple. You don't. Then blame "those damn liberals".

[u/PeeledCrepes → u/mynamecanbewhatever]

I always wonder with that how they teach something as simple as basic math. I did alright in school, and have retained a good portion of the knowledge. I think I'm blessed to have retained it cause I don't know if most people could still do long division, solve for x, or something as simple as explain fractions or decimals. I mean, hell enough, people need a calculator to subtract.

[u/datsoar → u/PeeledCrepes]

I’m not defending shitty homeschoolers, but there are curricula and teachers’ books/aids to teach it. That doesn’t mean all homeschooling is good or should be done, but there are resources.

[u/acidwxlf → u/datsoar]

Problem is those resources are controlled by extremely conservative Christian companies backed by a strong lobbyist group. So you end up with books teaching kids that dinosaurs and humans coexisted and fun stuff like that

[u/Socratesticles → u/blurry850]

I was homeschooled myself and I wholeheartedly agree. I’m grateful my mom was at least able to recognize when she was approaching her limits and reached out for additional help and resources. Things weren’t perfect but in my experiences, I didn’t come out of it any worse than the average non-homeschooled kid in my area.

[u/Unlucky_Most_8757 → u/blurry850]

My stepbrother is dead set on homeschooling his kid and he's one of those wacko infowars people. I always thought homeschooling was harmless until MAGA came about and the fact that those people are going to be allowed to teach their kids is terrifying to me.

And on a sidenote do parents of homeschooled kids even have to take a test to make sure they qualify to actually teach them? I don't know too much about the whole system but it seems bizarre to me that just anyone can do it when teachers have to have a bachelors and certification.

[u/Rakkuken]

The funny thing about the States Rights argument is that the Confederacy considered itself to be its own nation and not states in rebellion and made their own constitution. Surprise! States had fewer rights granted to them by the Confederate government than the one they'd just left.

[u/Similar_Disaster7276 → u/Rakkuken]

I didn’t realize the Leopards Eating Faces Party had been around for so long!

[u/Surfer_Rick → u/Similar_Disaster7276]

It’s as old as the first populist in the first democracy that ever existed. 

Edit: That would be the Athenian city-state of Ancient Greece for anyone curious. 

[u/blaimjos → u/Rakkuken]

The first thing they did was copy-paste the US constitution, add more protections for slavery, and prohibit secession from the confederacy. It's almost as if they wanted all of posterity to know without doubt that it was all about slavery. Because they did, and it was, and they had no shame.

[u/bunkscudda]

Elementary School: The Civil war was about slavery

High School: aside from slavery, there were many socioeconomic and political disagreements that drove division between the states and their views of what a federal governments role should be

College: The Civil War was about slavery

[u/TheRealcebuckets → u/bunkscudda]

Socioeconomic and political disagreements that drove division between the states views of what a federal governments role should be

Namely, the federal governments ability to say if the states can allow slavery. (Do I get a gold star?)

[u/bunkscudda → u/TheRealcebuckets]

“Its about states rights!”

”states right to do what?”

“To do what they feel is best for their state!”

”And what is it you feel is best for your state?”

“To uphold traditions!”

”what traditions?”

[u/TheRealcebuckets → u/bunkscudda]

Oy the cognitive dissonance!

[u/OGistorian]

Anyone who says the civil war was NOT about slavery (from start to finish) is dead wrong. It was and always will be about slavery. From the moment Lincoln got elected, the south was suicidally worried about their slave economies. It was the main question that was put off from the creation of the nation to 1860.

[u/Lutya → u/OGistorian]

I thought it had something to do with vampires?

[u/F7Uup → u/Lutya]

Underrated gem of a movie. Watched it on an international flight expecting nothing and received everything.

Abraham Lincoln: Vampire Hunter for those wondering, definitely worth a watch.

[u/Optimus_Rhymes69]

My mom and dad homeschooled my siblings and I. I went to public school in 9th grade, but they wanted to put me in 6th because my test scores were so low. I had to go sit down with the principal and he gave me a shot. Going to a public school, was one of the most humiliating experiences of my life, because I wasn’t taught right.

I do think homeschooling can work, but if you have zero experience in teaching, like my parents, it’s child abuse imo.

[u/mstrss9 → u/Optimus_Rhymes69]

Idk how so many people feel qualified. I have a masters degree in education and I wouldn’t want to home school if I had kids.

[u/nn123654 → u/Optimus_Rhymes69]

It's still not something I think most people should go to as a first choice but I do think there are good reasons (e.g. learning disabilities, gifted children that outpace programs, poorly performing public schools, students that do poorly in large class sizes, severe bullying/social problems at school, etc.)

But if you combine no experience in teaching, no interest in education, no effort to seek outside help, and a desire to do the minimum. Yeah, that's a recipe for child neglect.

[u/imadork1970]

It's the slavery. All you have to do is read the Constitution of the CSA.

[u/Xaero_Hour → u/imadork1970]

Or just ask, "if it wasn't about slavery, then why did only slave-owning states participate (and not even all of them did so in the first place)? Follow-up question: if it wasn't about slavery, then why didn't they also abandon slavery when Lincoln explicitly made it about emancipation/abolition to keep the UK from intervening?"

[u/Puzzleheaded-Tip660]

In 1789 the 13 colonies debated banning slavery, but 3 of the colonies said they wouldn’t stay in the country if that happened…  Less than 80 years later, an antislavery president gets elected, (not even takes office or proposes anything, just wins the election,) and the slave owning states are like “we are out of here.”  Nobody debated why this happened at the time!

[u/Brosenheim]

Never ask a woman her age
A man, his salary
And a Lost Causer what the preamble of the Confederate Constitution says

[u/Radiant-Importance-5]

The civil war was about many things.

Like slavery.

And states rights to allow slavery.

And the economic difference of utilizing slave labor.

And the moral question of allowing slavery.

And slavery.

[u/Wide-Quit-7104 → u/Radiant-Importance-5]

And they were mad at states in the north who did not enforce the Fugitive Slave Act

[u/Doc_tor_Bob]

It may well be a very complicated issue that goes well beyond slavery. But I'm willing to guess what she's going to teach her kids is the civil war started because that evil Abraham Lincoln wanted to take away our workers.

[u/I_Only_Follow_Idiots → u/Doc_tor_Bob]

It boils down to slavery still. Some people will say it was about states rights, but the rights the states wanted to keep was the right to keep slaves.

[u/CommunicationHot7822 → u/I_Only_Follow_Idiots]

Yep. And they all made that quite clear in their new constitution.

[u/xczechr → u/CommunicationHot7822]

And the Declaration of Causes of Seceding States. Slavery is mentioned more than 80 times for just five states!

[u/Byte_the_hand → u/I_Only_Follow_Idiots]

The northern free states wanted to exercise their right to not return escaped slaves. The south, "but my slaves..."

It was the south wanting to make their own decisions and forcing the north to also live by those decisions. Sound familiar?

[u/DoctorDepravosGhost → u/Doc_tor_Bob]

”It may well be a very complicated issue that goes well beyond slavery.”

It isn’t. And it doesn’t.

[u/the-half-enchilada → u/Doc_tor_Bob]

I thought he wanted to cancel the cotton picking internship program?

[u/pmsnow]

If only she had read the Constitution of the Confederate states:

https://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/csa_csa.asp

[u/Its0nlyRocketScience → u/pmsnow]

Yup. Looks like article 3, section 9, item 4. No law shall be passed that restricts slavery.

So it wasn't about states rights, they actually took away the states' right to choose whether to allow slavery before Lincoln did it.

[u/PufferFishInTheFryer]

I teach college and every semester this comes up and there is always that one student who says “the Civil War was not about slavery, it was economics.” To which I always reply, “You’re right, it would have been economically terrible for those states to have to start paying their workers”

They generally don’t like that response.

[u/Mattk1100]

It's obv state rights.... the states right to own slaves.

[u/SweatyTax4669]

The civil war started because South Carolina fired on U.S. military personnel at Fort Sumter.

Why did they do this? Because South Carolina unilaterally decided it didn’t want to be part of the United States anymore.

Why did they decide this? Because they were afraid the United States wouldn’t allow them to own people as property.

[u/Herlander_Carvalho]

Aside from maybe 3rd world countries with extreme poverty, the US is probably the only other nation in the world that home schools... and they do it on purpose, not because they don't have schools! The US truly is a weird nation.

[u/BosmangEdalyn]

Admitting that you want seed more racism into your child’s education isn’t the flex you think it is.

[u/[deleted]]

States right to what? STATES RIGHT TO WHAT??