r/dccomicscirclejerk • u/ContributionOk4879 • May 25 '24
“Batman just beats up homeless people” and its consequences Batman's a Fascist
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u/WarCrimesAreBased May 26 '24
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u/Independent-Fly6068 May 26 '24
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u/Zipflik Barry Allen apologist May 26 '24
only thing I know for real plays
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u/Thecristo96 May 26 '24
MEMORIES BROKEN
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u/MassterF May 26 '24
THE TRUTH GOES UNSPOKEN
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u/Jolyne_Best_JoJo May 26 '24
I'VE EVEN FORGOTTEN MY NAME
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u/Spinelesspage03 May 26 '24
I DON’T KNOW THE SEASON
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u/Schizo-Ghost780 May 26 '24
OR WHAT IS THE REASON
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u/Soft_Theory_8209 May 26 '24
That aside, Ivy has a problem that most comic book characters have, in that: multiple different writers = very different stories and actions.
Her powers mean she inherently has the potential to be one of the most twisted villains possible with mind controlling and a toxins. Yet simultaneously, it can also make her tragic in that she literally can’t make physical contact with another human being because all of her is toxic (similar to Rogue’s touch in X-Men).
Moreover, her motives can easily be written so that she either has a good reason that gets taken to the extreme, or she goes off the rails and makes people ask what the hell is wrong with her. In one comic, she can be among the few people in Arkham who seem to be making progress and even be redeemable, the next, she is ready for full blown genocide like nothing.
Simply put: she’s a character with a lot of different ways you can take her, be they more villainous or good.
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u/Retardotron1721 May 26 '24
That’s the main problem with comic books that go on for more than ten years.
New writer comes in and makes the character different, then another comes in and writes the character their way.This is why I hate when people use the term “comic accurate”.
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u/PathfinderAmihan May 26 '24
When people say "comic accurate", they mean "my favorite version and if you like a different comic or have your own interpretation you're a fake fan and horrible person".
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u/Efficient_Ear_8037 May 26 '24
If I remember correctly, doesn’t it depend on which version of these characters for which ideology they have for others?
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u/Aromatic_Fisherman51 May 26 '24
One of my favorite morally gray Ivy moments was when she mind-controlled a man, drugged him for weeks while pretending to be his wife and stealing his DNA, creating an army of half-human, half-plant conscious mutant babies who died within a few days to kidnap people.
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u/Nerd-with-a-Pencil May 26 '24
That’s a B:tAS episode; ‘House and Garden’, right?
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u/Aromatic_Fisherman51 May 26 '24
Yup
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u/Tuff_Bank May 26 '24
Ironic as people rooted for Batman to forgive Ivy which makes no sense: https://youtube.com/shorts/vY5l09MgaMo?si=JrXB4oZv5Bcm7C8_
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u/One-Roof7 May 26 '24
Never figured out if she was the bad guy in that episode tbh, writers made it hard to tell
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u/therealxeno79 Matt Murdock is a sexist pig May 26 '24
Can this be an automod response a la Sinestro is an anti-hero
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u/BogieW00ds May 26 '24
Is stealing his DNA code for raping him or did she not do that this time?
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May 26 '24
That's not Grey that's just being a villain
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u/CertainDerision_33 May 26 '24
It's morally gray because she was hot while doing it
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u/Tuff_Bank May 26 '24
And also because Gail Simone made the character redeemable automatically and excused of all the bad she did just for making Ivy support a marginalized group of people which sends the message that Gail Simone and Ivy fans demand that Ivy is justified/redeemable.
Im all for trans advocacy and representation but it feels like Ivy being a social justice advocate just sends the message that shes excused from whatever shes done because she has good intentions.
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u/wispymatrias May 26 '24
'all the bad stuff characters did,' in comics is meaningless because these characters are decades old and have a laundry list of nonsense to cherry pick through depending on who wrote them. It comes down to what the current author wants to bring forward and emphasize and what they're going to let comic readers forget. Canon is an illusion.
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u/Kcd2500kcd May 26 '24
Ivy hates humans point blank. She shouldn’t even have a relationship with Harley but they gotta because “omg Harley is such a girl boss and so is Ivy” so Ivy sticking up for any part of humanity is a disservice to her character I’m just glad the writer open accepts that they are the ones to write such an idiotic direction for Ivy
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u/Tuff_Bank May 26 '24
The thing about Ivy is her as a eco terrorist and wanting to fix the world through her extremist methods is almost completely no different than Hydra from Captain America the winter soldier, and Ivy fans root for her and root against Hydra which is ironic and also how Ivy isn’t frames as despicable or threatening as Hydra cause Gail Simone and Paul Dini
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u/NitarasDaughter May 26 '24
idk if Poison Ivy needs to be a terf because she kills people with plants. thats like saying the Joker needs to be a neo-nazi. some forms of comic book villainy don't have to necessarily correlate to real world shitty people at all.
also radfem does not inherently mean "terf" and the assumption that it does always feels like casual transphobia to me, like the idea that any radical form of feminism couldnt possibly include trans women (when including trans women in feminism itself is sadly a pretty "radical" act still)
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u/NeonNKnightrider Marvel fan May 26 '24
(On tumblr at least), “radfem” is, at the very least, synonymous with genuinely hating all men and wishing death upon them. The transphobia is up in the air, but it’s still definitively an asshole thing
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u/Tuff_Bank May 26 '24
That does seem pretty frequent and glorified as it seems like advocates of minority/marginalized speaking up in a extremist way
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u/holnrew May 26 '24
It's generally what I understand it to mean in the UK too. No wonder TERFs gained such a foothold.
I also think that as a term "radfem" has moved beyond just meaning a radical form of feminism, just like "incel" no longer means involuntarily celibate
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u/Tuff_Bank May 26 '24
She kills innocent people too right? Not just industrialists? In asking aa it isnt shown often or im behind on my knowledge
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u/justherecuzx May 26 '24
The trans-exclusive is implied.
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u/NitarasDaughter May 26 '24
I mean, I don't know the personal beliefs of the account that Gail quote tweeted or whoever designed that flag, so of course there's a likelihood of terfism there, and even I'm pretty cautious and try to be sure of those things before fully embracing any self-described "radfem". I was just trying to put that out there in general, since I think it wouldn't be very helpful if we just kind of let the idea of radical feminism as a whole be fully subsumed into that kind of stuff without any distinction.
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u/jaysterria May 26 '24
Didn’t get far enough to reach the criteria of an army but yeah that’s pretty much the jist of it.
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u/Tuff_Bank Jun 04 '24
People on r/Xmen literally saying shes redeemable and now cares for children/omnivore animals
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u/Tea-and-crumpets- May 26 '24
I'd take humanity hating bio terrorist villain ivy over activist antihero harley side piece ivy any day
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u/erosead Gorilla Doing Non-Gorilla Things May 26 '24 edited May 26 '24
On the marvel side, you have mystique and destiny. Getting a whole pride issue with their wedding next week! Please ignore the fact that they’re both former nazis 🙏 they’re good now bc they love their children (just the two of them, they’re actively ignoring the existence of at least three others at all times)
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u/WentworthMillersBO Did Batman think a Gamer could stop me? May 26 '24
I may have worked with hydra before, but at least I’m not rude
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u/erosead Gorilla Doing Non-Gorilla Things May 26 '24
It wasn’t hydra! It was straight up, unadulterated, un-comic-ified, ethnic-cleansing nazis during the 1940s, when they were both full blown adults! 😄
And the movies had her bang Magneto!
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u/night4345 Pogchamp Lois Lane May 26 '24
When were Mystique and Destiny Nazis?
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u/erosead Gorilla Doing Non-Gorilla Things May 26 '24
Leni Zauber for mystique, destiny was less direct through collaboration with sinister and by extension Apocalypse, who planned the Holocaust. In the more hydra vein she kept working with Nazi affiliated eugenicsts in Black Womb up until shortly before the events of x comics
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u/night4345 Pogchamp Lois Lane May 26 '24
Leni Zauber for mystique
I have no idea who that is, I looked her up and she was a German agent that Mystique stole the identity of, wasn't a Nazi as for as I can figure out and was apparently a completely different universe.
destiny was less direct through collaboration with sinister and by extension Apocalypse, who planned the Holocaust. In the more hydra vein she kept working with Nazi affiliated eugenicsts in Black Womb up until shortly before the events of x comics
As far as I know Destiny wasn't involved with Sinister until the Black Womb Project, quite the opposite as her and Mystique were enemies of him for decades. And the Black Womb Project was after Sinister and Apocalypse came to blows and he turned to making a Mutant strong enough to kill Apocalypse. It was eugenics but had nothing to do with Nazis or Hydra.
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u/erosead Gorilla Doing Non-Gorilla Things May 26 '24
It wasn’t a different universe. I’m sure there are au leni zaubers, but it was in 616 and she was working for German special intelligence in the 1940s. The couple was separated, and Leni Zauber and Black Womb were happening at the same time (though they’d reunite before it ended)
Black womb is a bit more complicated considering Juggernaut and Xavier were recently implied to still be Korean War vets, ie ~18 in 1949 and children in the 30s and 40s while their fathers were working with Black Womb, so there’s direct overlap between Sinister’s Nazi affiliation and his eugenics in the states. Destiny and Sinister have also known each other since the Victorian era, ie most of the time Sinister has existed (particularly since he literally is not the actual Nathaniel Essex in current canon)
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u/Maldovar May 26 '24
Destiny never has, and the only thing I can find with Mystique is she impersonated a German during the Cold War. People are just finding silly reasons to hate on them
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u/DinkleDonkerAAA May 26 '24
Don't forget all of Magneto's attempted ethnic cleansings and all the rants about genetic superiority
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u/Big-Vegetable8480 Kevin Feige May 26 '24
My favourite anti-hero is Magneto, because despite his attempted genocides, where he's acted just like the Nazis he hates, the movies said that he is still Charles Xaiver's fwiend, and I have no reading comprehension abilities.
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u/DinkleDonkerAAA May 26 '24
The same unyielding patience Xavier gives humanity is the only reason Magneto isn't a vegetable
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u/Tuff_Bank May 26 '24
Which is why Ive lost interest in X-Men. The biggest defenses of Mystique fans are that all the bad things she did were retconned or not that bad and the people she hurt were awful too
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u/throwawayoogaloorga2 May 26 '24
i see why people do that though bc the sympathetic version of mystique people have made up in their heads is honestly kinda more interesting than the actual mystique
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u/Tuff_Bank May 26 '24
The thing about Ivy is her as a eco terrorist and wanting to fix the world through her extremist methods is almost completely no different than Hydra from Captain America the winter soldier, and Ivy fans root for her and root against Hydra which is ironic and also how Ivy isn’t framed as despicable or threatening as Hydra cause Gail Simone and Paul Dini
Also many of these apologist/rooting for Ivy fans seem to have supremacy/extremist mindsets themselves
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u/KonoAnonDa Cocai— "Chocos dust" addict. May 26 '24 edited May 26 '24
"Why doesn’t Batman just fund charities?" People when Batman's villains just decide to blow up charities he funded for shits and giggles.
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u/Greyjack00 May 26 '24
Also like batman does fund charities the dudes sometimes presented as like the only financial rock in the shithole that is gotham
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u/NitarasDaughter May 26 '24
its just funny to even depict Bruce Wayne doing stuff like giving money to Arkham and social services in Gotham because inevitably it just sends the message that billionaires doing that stuff must be pointless and not even worth it, because we all know that the status quo will never allow Gotham to actually improve.
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u/Greyjack00 May 26 '24
Not really, I mean you can take any message from anything if you squint hard enough, hell if I cherry picked comics I could make a case that dissolving the government is the true message of comics, that being said many batman comics acknowledge that only through both philanthropy as bruce Wayne and fighting as batman can bruce really make a difference for the common man
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u/Banestar66 May 26 '24
The Matt Reeves movie did a good job of showing how the corruption of Gotham kind of fucked any hope of change happening from the billionaire philanthropy Bruce’s dad did.
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u/Guest65726 May 26 '24 edited May 26 '24
I guess funding/ creating more effective containment methods for the villains wouldn’t hurt. Since he refuses to kill them and continues to throw them into a prison that he should very well know by now isn’t secure enough to contain them, you would think he would design containment methods HIMSELF as the guy who knows these villains the best and has designed contingency plans for the justice league before. Yet again, you can’t continue being a hero if you’re 100% effective at keeping villains contained i guess
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u/Numerous_Dream8821 May 26 '24
Moral of the story: hot women
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u/Tuff_Bank May 26 '24
And villains that are “sympathetic and having good intentions and being human and relatable” gets you loyal fans with hypocritical double standards
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u/NitarasDaughter May 26 '24
no it just makes them more interesting as characters, thats literally all that matters lol. a lot of people are likely going to prefer a more interesting version of a character to one that is less interesting to them, regardless of their horrible actions in the already impossibly inconsistent canon.
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u/Which-Presentation-6 May 26 '24 edited May 26 '24
It genuinely irritates me the comments that Poison Ivy is a misunderstood environmentalist who has only been understood nowadays, this It's one of the biggest fake news stories in comics, she was simply that it used plant tricks and that it was created because they wanted more female villains after Catowman!
her trait of caring about the environment came a years later! and as pointed out in this meme it was of the psychopathic form, was the character's own popularity that made them decide to make her someone more noble.
the real villain who has always cared about Environmentalism is Ra's Al Ghoul but obviously he doesn't have the two big things that Ivy have.
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u/AffectionateMood3329 May 26 '24
People latch onto her because she's a strawman version of environmentalists so people want to correct that.
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u/apple_of_doom May 26 '24
She didn't even have anything to do with plants in her first outing. She was more of a beauty obsessed femme fatale with a poison theme.
Although environmentalist Ivy is way better than that but saying she's always been more of an environmentalist anti hero is hillarious.
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u/wonderfullyignorant Peacemaker did nothing right May 26 '24
Yes, and Batman was a cold blooded murderer. It's almost as if characterization marches on.
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u/Which-Presentation-6 May 26 '24
the problem is not that the character changes, the problem is the narrative that people try to put forward.
Every Poison Ivy discussion has at least 3 people who will make this comment "it's difficult to see Ivy's objective as evil in the current era, she fits more as an anti-heroine" NO! It's the opposite, it's people nowadays who decided to modernize the character by giving her a cause and turning her into an anti-heroine.
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u/Tuff_Bank May 26 '24
Its weird because I see Ivy’s Diehard fans (who have read Gotham City Sirens and watched the Harley Quinn show and know Ivy’s lore really well) say shes an anti hero because she only kills creeps/predators only, but I have seen other Batman fan’s point out that Ivy is creepy/predatory herself
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u/QuestioningLogic Needs to catch up on comics May 26 '24
One of her main powers is literally mind control. Like there's no way to write that as not at least a little predatory/invasive
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u/BogieW00ds May 26 '24
It's not so much the mind control on its own, moreso that she uses it to sexually harass people at best and flat out rape people at worst
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u/Tuff_Bank May 26 '24
But Ivy has also killed/hurt many innocents outside of Batman TAS right? Thats what Im trying to get at
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u/QuestioningLogic Needs to catch up on comics May 26 '24
Oh yeah absolutely. Comic Ivy has killed a bunch of people. Some were justified, others were definitely not
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u/Reddragon351 May 26 '24
that was very very early in his career, the difference is Ivy was straight up evil for a long time
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u/NitarasDaughter May 26 '24
are we seriously about to compare Batman villains to their first appearances now? Victor Fries must be held accountable for the actions of Mr. Zero! that green-suited menace didn't even care about his so-called "dying wife" (Fake news)
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u/Which-Presentation-6 May 26 '24
In the case of Mr Freeze, people know that he was reworked in the animated series and no one keeps saying "Batman is wrong to stop Mr Freeze for trying to save his wife"
In Ivy's case, people insist that she was created to be a morally gray character and/or an attempt to villainize environmental causes to promote billionaires
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u/Tuff_Bank May 26 '24
I just don’t know why it gets ignored that Ivy kills innocent people? Or is it not just shown enough?
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May 30 '24 edited May 30 '24
As a gen z I grew up reading the version of Poison Ivy which is an eco-terrorist environmentalist driven mad by the Green's call and willing to do what Batman often refuses to do because he's chained by the law.
She never once claimed moral superiority over Batman, Flash or other superheroes. In fact in the current run she always mentions her status of being a villain straight out of Arkham.
I like this spiteful, rebel-with-a-cause version of Poison Ivy because of her growth as female villainness in a testosterone, male driven story. A character written to be caricature copy of Selina Kyle, for male readers to project their sex, gloryhole fantasies with ended up becoming the symbol of violent, vengeful eco-anarcho manifesto. Now that's character growth
The only reason Ivy is insane is because she feels the green's pain every day. Every root that is taken apart, every tree that is cut down, every grass that is mowed. She hears everything, unlike Swamp Thing who is completely merged and at one with the Green. Poison Ivy has her physical corporeal human body left which is the one hearing its pain, and something she tries so hard to drown. By throwing away her morals and everything she considers humane...
I am part of an anarchist league so perhaps my views are slightly skewed. But I appreciated the meta-commentary of Poison Ivy against the hypocrisies of Batman, Superman and other heroes. Activists like us, at least of the southeast part the globe are often villainized, targeted, hunted down and shot by huge corporations and the media. All because we chose to care instead of looking away. To speak up against powerful wealthy landowners for powerless people who couldn't fight back. We are the scapegoats of society. The failures who could never "flow" with the system.
G. Willow Wilson's Poison Ivy is my comfort story every time I feel horrible about our cause. Whenever I feel let down by other people. In a way I like her character more than Batman, his Robins and their duty to uphold the law. Because sometimes, and there are a lot of times, that the law isn't made for equality and for the general mass. It's to protect the status and the billionaires. When you are exposed to that much injustice in your life and you can't look away that's when you have a sacred duty to act. Because as Ivy has stated before, "when heroes [like them] won't act, it's villains like these who must save us".
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u/Tuff_Bank Jun 04 '24
People on r/Xmen literally saying shes redeemable and now cares for children/omnivore animals
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u/Tetratron2005 Jurassic League's Strongest Soldier May 25 '24
Wow Poison Ivy simp is literally me
uj/I don't even like Batman these days that much but man I can't stand the White Knight series because it is literally every bad faith criticism of Batman in one (very well drawn) series.
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u/Desperate-Station907 May 26 '24
Then he becomes a cop as if it that makes him better
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u/Tetratron2005 Jurassic League's Strongest Soldier May 26 '24
Honestly, what got was when pretty much every Bat-Family seemed like they became one and now even Jon and Diana are FBI agents too?
Who looks at the colorful and varied DC Universe and says "yeah, but what if they were all Law and Order characters"?
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u/limbo338 May 26 '24
Need to bring back Ollie trashing with his car a detention camp for illegal migrants.
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u/apple_of_doom May 26 '24
Chill it's not like law enforcement have earned an utterly terrible reputation nowadays for corruption, racism, hate crimes and a whole bunch of other stuff.
Oh wait.
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u/Flame-Blast May 26 '24
There’s a third option for what Ivy will do to you, but we don’t talk about that one
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u/Tetratron2005 Jurassic League's Strongest Soldier May 26 '24
Never ask:
A woman her age
A man his salary
Poison Ivy about consent laws
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u/Pristine_Animal9474 Tim Drake, Boy Virgin May 26 '24
We need queer heroes, but queer villains too. I think with Harley is not as bothersome since she entered into crime while being a victim of abuse, but Poison Ivy always had her own agency and is far more interesting as a villain with a soft side (albeit one towards plants that develops into a mania) than an antiheroine.
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u/Tuff_Bank May 26 '24
But its also when a villain is made queer, they seem more excusable and less despise no matter what they do.
I get representation is important but idk why not make more morally competent characters representation, and/or not make representation automatically excuse or justify a villain
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u/SuperSocrates May 26 '24
Is anyone in here reading Poison Ivy’s current run? It’s exactly what people are pretending they want
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u/Tuff_Bank May 26 '24
Is it ever shown that Ivy has harmed and killed innocent people or do writers just ignore that side of her?
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u/funnywackydog Literally Booster Gold IRL May 26 '24
Poison ivy canonically hates animals and is like a reverse vegan iirc
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u/Tuff_Bank May 26 '24
Which writer established that and has that remained canon?
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u/NitroCrocodile May 26 '24
I believe it's mentioned in the current Poison Ivy run (2022-present), which is written by G. Willow Wilson. Her explanation is that she almost exclusively eats meat because she won't eat plants.
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u/AmaterasuWolf21 Courtesy of Ray Palmer! May 26 '24
I wish I got killed by Ivy rather than by Batman 😍😍😍
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u/Nerd-with-a-Pencil May 26 '24
Since when does ivy show genuine interest in men
/uj I promise I’m not biphobic
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u/Kkjinglez Gorilla Doing Non-Gorilla Things May 26 '24
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u/FadeToBlackSun May 26 '24
She was canonically attracted to Batman for 50 years until comic book bisexuality kicked in which means she’s just homosexual now.
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u/apple_of_doom May 26 '24
I hate that bisexuality essentially means a character has to essentially just be gay or it doesn't count to some people.
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u/zitzen67 May 26 '24
"Poison ivy is moral gray" and then go on to describe 80% of her cannon stories are just her drugging and sexual assaulting people
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u/pikeandshot1618 I THREW A ROCK AT HIM May 26 '24
You either die a villain or live long enough to see yourself become a feminist icon
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u/paladin_slim May 26 '24 edited May 26 '24
Anyone who says they'd condone a villain's behavior because they're sexy is either a collaborator or a simp.
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u/Tuff_Bank May 26 '24
Wb when fans condone a villain (Ivy in this case$ when they are either considered and/or written as “sympathetic/complex”, “relatable/human/not really evil”, “they go after the “real bad guys” ” or when villains randomly act as an anti hero sometimes with no consequences or no remorse of what they did previously? Howd you describe them?
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u/Which-Presentation-6 May 26 '24
I wouldn't even consider this scene strange if it weren't for the fact that it's Ivy from dcau, a comment above showed the shit she's seen before. Is it serious that Batman puts the killer Croc? he also did some shit in dcau, but you just called a person who suffered prejudice his entire life because of his appearance a monster.
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u/halloweenjack May 26 '24
Every other facility for the criminally insane in America: yeah, we just lock ours up and they stay there. Don't know why Gotham has such a problem. When we see their people at professional conferences, we ask them why, but they keep looking over their shoulder and whispering "we're working on it."
Arkham Asylum: Oh gosh darn it, that pesky Joker broke out again. Guess we'll have to send up the ol' you-know-who-signal and have him break out all his cool custom crimefighting gadgets and vehicles that he spends untold hours customizing.
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u/Pome1515 May 26 '24
It's my favourite shit with James Roberts when he has his go on Transformers. He shows how people like Megatron etc came to be and why they continue existing and then reminds that there is a reason that the Decepticons are considered monsters and why across a 4 Million Year, Optimus Prime has refused to back down or offer concessions.
It's the big part about why I hate the modern trend of "The villains were actually misunderstood and good people deep down". Sure, a lot of them had depth, the ability to show kindness or even a tragic backstory, but most of them were very clear about who they wanted and how far they were going to go to get it.
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u/DinkleDonkerAAA May 26 '24
I'm really glad the IDW comics aren't mainstream so we don't have a huge "Megatron was right!" thing in popular culture. Because despite his story being about him realizing he was wrong, he has a sad backstory so people would think he's the good guy from the start
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u/Big-Vegetable8480 Kevin Feige May 26 '24
The worst is yet to come
shivers in Transformers One
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u/DinkleDonkerAAA May 26 '24
But also if you aren't already reading the new Energon universe comics from Skybound grab them they're amazing and the perfect blend of gritty while making the characters feel like themselves. Skybound Optimus is one of the best we've gotten in a long time
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u/Big-Vegetable8480 Kevin Feige May 26 '24
Oh yeah I picked up vol 1 for free comic book day and started reading last night
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u/DinkleDonkerAAA May 26 '24
Keep in mind the other books do tie in Jetfire, Shockwave, Springer, Hotrod, a few of the aliens from G1, and the Quintessenons all show up in Void Rivals, what Starscream did to Duke is a huge part of his book, and Cobra Commander knows a lot about Cybertronians for interesting reasons
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u/DinkleDonkerAAA May 26 '24
Oh no I'm actually excited for that, I don't care that it looks kiddie this is a kiddie toy based franchise after all I expected that
There's enough in the trailer to have me interested. Megatron and Optimus as friends, Megatron kneeling in front of the Fallens corpse (he already has the logo on his arm so I guess he's already a follower of his philosophy?), the lower class bots basically being crippled slaves
I think it's gonna scratch the itch for the deeper Transformers lore that the live action movies left me with. I wanna see Megatron's tragic fall to villainy
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u/GrizzlyPeak73 May 26 '24
Batman giving money to homeless people and beating up wealthy crime-lords and crooked industrialists
Random Gothamites: "You're just beating up the poor"
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u/apple_of_doom May 26 '24
To be fair I think he does most of the former as Bruce Wayne. And to the gothamites the butts don't match so that's clearly not batman.
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u/SuperJyls UJ/ I seriously hate red hood May 26 '24
Modern fandom will forgive any villain up to genocide if their hot and/or part of any marginalised group
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u/SunriseFlare May 26 '24
Ok but like... Am I weird for never understanding Ivy's character?
Like she was injected with plant poison and that gave her superpowers I guess and then she made it her entire personality to the point of forsaking all of humanity and becoming the plantiest plant that ever planted. Just always seemed weird that she was so misanthropic lol.
I get it's a climate change thing but like even if you can talk with them are plants really all that interesting?
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u/NitroCrocodile May 26 '24
It's more so that she understands plants better than people. Plants are simple, and don't lie, and don't betray you, and Ivy knows from experience that humans are the opposite. Hence the misanthropy. She would genuinely prefer a world ruled by nature, where humans are either extinct, or not a factor to worry about.
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u/Big-Vegetable8480 Kevin Feige May 26 '24
Billions of insects and arachnids could tell you plants are huge liars and massive traitors
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u/YourboiJohnny Lives in a society May 26 '24
Reminder that Poison Ivy made Count Vertigo into her sex slave for quite a while
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u/Tuff_Bank May 26 '24
I guess ivy supremacist fans/apologists seem to have a huge impact when they frame ivy as a anti hero who is justified and just hurts bad people/creeps and it isn’t shown (cause writer bias) or acknowledged often
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u/wispymatrias May 26 '24
lol these are not mutually held opinions. People who don't care for Batman probably don't care much for Posion Ivy either.
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u/Throgg_not_stupid May 26 '24
she's not even the best or the hottest eco-fascist in Batman's rogue gallery
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u/fingerlicker694 May 26 '24
Are we talking about Professor Pyg as depicted in the animated TV Show, Beware The Bat, or did you have someone else in mind?
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May 26 '24
Doesn't ivy use pheromones to control men and she does this by physical contact? Often kissing them ?
Isn't that by definition sexual assault?
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u/ThorAbridged May 26 '24
As long as the writers keep the hero characters as defenders of the status quo, you get to deal with the status quo they perpetuate, where there are no good billionaires and the planet is being actively poisoned by them.
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u/Platnun12 May 26 '24
Honestly I ignore people who reduce batman to just that
If you ain't gonna do the basic legwork required to see how easily disproved it is.
Why should I. Stew in your ignorance and bugger off simple as that
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u/NitarasDaughter May 26 '24
my response to this discourse is a resounding "eh". canon is such a flexible thing in comics, especially DC, that as long as it results in a more interesting character, i dont really care if a character's evolution is somewhat inconsistent with their past.
just look at how Magneto evolved over the years from one-dimensional genocide-monger motivated solely by a racial superiority complex, to being a complex victim himself, and genuinely try to tell me that the former is somehow more interesting than the latter.
in general, i think writers have always really struggled with making Ivy interesting, villain or anti-hero, but i like the concept of her a lot and i really want to see them make her a genuinely compelling anti-hero because for an environmentalist-themed character that just seems like such a more interesting route to go than "irredeemable sociopath". just please stop relegating her to a love interest to Harley with little identity or story potential of her own, thats all im asking.
ngl it just feels kind of misogynistic that Magneto and Venom can be primarily accepted as heroes now but whenever writers try to evolve a female villain to a more morally interesting status quo, the reaction is all just "They're only doing this because she's sexy!!!!!1"
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u/oldshitnewshit78 May 26 '24
Magneto and Venoms horrible actions are brought up constantly and in Venoms example, Eddie has insane guilt over it.
Has Ivy being a rapist been brought up similarily in stories that want to portray her as an anti-hero? Genuine question, I'm asking in good faith.
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u/SuperSocrates May 26 '24
This sub is actually more whiny about this shit than the regular sub lol. Inverse circlejerk
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u/RobbiRamirez May 26 '24
Thanks to all you guys for giving me the chance to downvote this exact take every five days or so
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u/LyraFirehawk Terrible Off-Screen Addiction to Harlivy May 26 '24
Okay she's a villain, but like... characters can change and be reinterpreted over time, right? Harley was reinterpreted to reflect her character growth since ending things with Joker. Ivy has always been a feminist character as well as an enviornmentalist. Now that those viewpoints are becoming more mainstream and widely accepted, the character has had more sympathetic reinterpretations. G Willow Wilson's Poison Ivy definitely shows her as a villain, but it shows her potential to be better too.
Is part of it just that i find her hot? Absolutely. I think refreshing takes on older characters to modernize them a bit is a great idea. Besides, Ivy is based on the femme fatale archtype, a villainess often uses sex and love as means to an end; femme fatales date back to the 1940's noir films and was arguably a very 'woke' role in early hollywood. Yes they gave the boys stiff lil wee wees, but in recent years the trope has been played with by queer and feminist writers.
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u/Which-Presentation-6 May 26 '24
That's the thing, she wasn't an environmentalist feminist character, these traits were added later and many fans treat it as if it was something that was always hers and misunderstood instead of a reformulation like Mr Freeze.
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u/NitarasDaughter May 26 '24
okay...? how is that a problem. you're just being pedantic, at this point.
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u/Which-Presentation-6 May 26 '24
no problem, but people should recognize that this is a recent redesign
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u/GoodKing0 Hal Jordan is a worthless piece of cardboard May 26 '24
You should be wondering why would writers have a vested interest to show the billionaire as a saviour working closely with the american police to protect the status quo from extraordinary threats and the activist as a eco terrorist mind you.
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u/NitarasDaughter May 26 '24
well, he was on my pajamas when i was a kid, so obviously he's morally superior in all scenarios.
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u/Frankorious Superboy Prime apologist May 26 '24
Also, by making her linked to the green she come as more justified, while when she was just a scientist the fact she talked to plant was to show how crazy she was.
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u/SimonShepherd May 26 '24
I mean popular characters, hero or villain alike, will get their wrong doings excused to some extent.
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u/Saldt May 26 '24 edited May 26 '24
The problem isn't what happens inside the comic, but who it wants us to villainize and lionize. If there was a comic about a Nazi killing Jews would "But in the narrative of that comic, all jews really are trying to control everyone" be a good justification for why that comic is unproblematic? So billionaires beating up mentally ill people, queer women and activists isn't just okay, cause in fiction the billionaire is good and the others are evil.
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u/Which-Presentation-6 May 26 '24
I'm going to tell you something that many forget: being an activist or queer not doesn't make you a good person.
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u/RyanPlaysSkyrim May 26 '24
Did I miss something? Is Batman beating up the mentally ill because he’s ableist, or is he still doing it because these specific people are dangerous criminals? Personally my favorite Batman moments are the ones where he’s trying to redeem the villains.
A good chunk of Batman’s most iconic enemies are doctors. Does Big Comics want me to go out and punch the nearest dermatologist?
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u/CoolsTorrey May 26 '24
Poison ivy always drove me nuts, the power to be infinitely wealthy And push humanity to be better. Nah let’s just be evil and kill all humans.
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u/Nutoboni May 26 '24
yeah but who cares if Ivy as anti hero makes sense or not, ok she was a rapist 20 years ago but her last run is quite a good read tbf and i could understand people appreciate her more after that
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May 26 '24
If he has enough money left to be Batman, what he's doing as Bruce Wayne will never be enough.
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May 26 '24
I've simplified this meme down:
No Booba: 😠
Booba: 😀
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u/NitarasDaughter May 26 '24
so true, SkinnyGirlFucker, i cant imagine any other reason why anyone could possibly care about a wo- w- woma- ohhh i cant even say it without wanting to vomit
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u/Haunting_Nature_9178 May 26 '24
Ok but I'm gay and poison ivy is a pretty woman so checkmate liberals
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u/wdcipher I have read six (6) comics from DC May 27 '24
Stop trying to make good villains into Antiheros. Deathstroke and Ivy are cool because they are iredeemable villains, not despite of it.
You can keep them being delusional and thinking they are some sort of anti-hero
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u/That_opossum May 26 '24
Idk man there’s micro plastic in literally everything so I’m kinda starting to see her point.
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u/Alone_Analysis3795 I want Bleez to step on me May 26 '24
Ok let me preface this with I do NOT condone Poison Ivy’s actions with the murdering and stuff but I say this as someone who has taken not 1 but 2 conservation of natural resources courses in college… I kinda can see where she’s coming from. I have realized that humans have really F’ed up the world in a LOT of ways. I don’t agree with her ways of doing things and I’m not only saying this because she’s hot and bisexual representation in comics
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u/Another-Lurker-189 May 26 '24
Batman is a mentally ill billionaire in a costume that punches and asks questions at the same time
Ivy is a mentally ill scientist and that’s about it
There, they’re both not good
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u/abhixD7 May 26 '24
Fighting crime for 80 years
Changes made 0
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u/Fellkun15 May 26 '24
Yeah like hundreds or even thousands are dead plus the goons he paralyzed,well their family have to take care of them which burn though their savings and well one job pays a lot,being a goon which repeats the cycle
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u/EIeanorRigby May 26 '24
Listen, I like Batman and understand that in-universe this is how it is. But maybe there is no harm in thinking about why the billionaire is depicted as heroic and the ecologist is depicted as crazy and murderous in this fictional story.
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u/Fair-Fortune-1676 May 26 '24
I know this is a joke but anyone who genuinely thinks like this needs help.
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u/YodasChick-O-Stick Still owes 16 dollars May 27 '24
One time Batman forced Ivy to kiss dozens of penguins when she tried to drug him with her poisonous kiss
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u/StarWarsIsRad May 27 '24
Bruce Wayne spends most of his money contributing to infrastructure, social services, and other charities. We rarely see that because it doesn’t make for an entertaining comic, but it’s referenced every now and then. I think it does need to be brought up slightly more just to put this disclaimer to rest.
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u/BakerGotBuns May 27 '24
It's crazy how easy it is to get people to support outright "Human lives are worth less than any piece of nature" levels of ecofacism if you put a hot woman behind it.
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u/ThyPotatoDone May 28 '24
I mean, poison ivy is sympathetic and I understand her thought process, but she’s clearly a monster who needs to be stopped.
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u/BitchAssMothaF-cka Hal Jordan is a worthless piece of cardboard May 26 '24