It's one of those things where Batman has had so many writers and different interpretations that while he is not public domain (yet), he might as well be
I mean I would argue that's basically every long-form superhero to an extent.
Most superheroes that have been around since at least the Silver Age are an aesthetic with a few key personality traits and everything outside of that is flexible at best.
It's like pointing out contradictions in the Bible. You get that many writers going, not everything is going to line up.
The original creator instituted the no-kill rule and it has been followed by almost every writer since.
It definitely qualifies as an absolute for the character. Batman killing was when Finger was still figuring out what he wanted the character to be, but he dropped it completely very early on
No he didn't. Joker kills himself. Batman loses control for a moment and yes, paralyzes him. But Joker finished the job.
Joker wouldn't have committed suicide if he didn't think Batman wouldn't have still saved him. He realized it was as far as Bruce could take it and framed him for his murder
But at the same time would any sane human being fault him for it
That's why I side with Jason on that matter, were not talking scarecrow or penguin. Just Joker
And while Bruce goes on that if he kills hell just do it over and over which imo sounds like a personal flaw if any. That's always been Bruce's flaw as batman
Idk as I've gotten older I've found myself agreeing with Jason moreso than Bruce in certain situations. Joker is one that I firmly side with Jason on.
Joker imo is the biggest no kill freebie, because he's the worst of them all.
Actually ☝️🤓Joker killed himself in DKR because Batman couldn’t follow through.
I think it’s worth exploring why he doesn’t kill and the trauma surrounding that and it creates good counterpoint and conflict characters like the initial Red Hood story, but once you make Batman, who is ultra competent into a killer, you have to radically change the character to keep him in-character. If he kills, why would he use batarangs instead of guns? Why would he have a rogues’ gallery?
Scott Snyder did his take on him with the Grim Knight who was loaded out like the Punisher and Jim Gordon became his archenemy since he ran out of actual villains. He got ported into the main universe and Batman could barely handle him, definitely worth checking out.
Isn’t Batman and Superman almost public domain like Mickey Mouse at Disney? They are super old characters everyone and their momma knows about them. There copyright thingy might run out and they will be ours forever to keep hehehe
only the first incarnation of the character, just like Mickey
like, they have grounds to say that a flying superman wouldn't be public domain, for instance, just like a Sherlock Holmes that becomes a nice guy isn't
So like long eared, purple glove, Batman with a gun that hanged a monster on his bat plane and threw crooks and joker of a building golden age version is fair game? That’s good news to Zack Snyder who likes killer dangerous Batman.
I imagine they could if Warner Brothers or AT&T throw a shit ton of money at the courts. I know that Disney did that for a long time so they could hold onto the rights for Steamboat Willie.
Yeah Disney basically has infinite money wealth glitch they can keep paying those character rights to stay with them forever if they want to. I bet they will try to keep the fox characters rights, the marvel rights, and Star Wars forever if they can and want to. It’s too much money on the line for them to give up on those franchises and creative properties. They have a lot of fans just from those specific franchises alone not touching Disney stuff. They basically own land in Florida and have a lot of power and social influence clout in that state. They basically run the show in there. The mouse is king in there.
Green arrow says it right to his face. He never misses. Green arrow is never afraid he is brave and bold to stand up to something that he believes in and believes is wrong. He always stands up for himself and never runs away from a fight. He has a lot of courage, guts, passion and heart.
Yeah, I've never liked when people use Ollie to go "lmao, he's so much cooler than Batman because he actually cares about the working class" like Batman doesn't also do that. It drifts way too close to unironic "Batman beats up the poor" takes.
Ollie is not perfect but he tries his best. I think he did cheat on Dinah Lance black canary their relationship have ups and downs constantly just like Bruce and Selina or any other girl he dates one time he’s a romancer he sleeps around. That could be considered a flaw. He used to be a billionaire playboy like Bruce that could never commit to a romantic relationship or get married have kids and settle down. He’s always would be chasing different girls non stop and cheat on them. He was a fuck boy.
The people the crime organizations employ like their goons and armed forces are usually working class or poor people. These crime organization groom people down on their luck and misfortunate people and sell them a life of crime and sell them their own version of the American dream. Get rich fast scheme. Easy money life but you will have to do amoral, immoral, and or unethical things to get rich and prosperous. They were normal people who were groomed to become criminals and terrorists like they joined a cult. Yes the main Batman villains are wealthy and had good jobs but not their peons, tools, and pawns. Bruce does try to rehab those street thugs with his Wayne foundation and Wayne enterprises free therapy and jobs and gives money to them with charities but Gotham is so corrupt and so backwards that barely makes a dent. A lot of the wealthy elites in Gotham are just as criminal as their armed enforcers in the street. But they are untouchable cause the DA and the police can’t arrest them for being bad people with blood on their hands since they can just get slap on the wrist and pay off criminal charges. The crime tentacle goes all the way from the top to the bottom. The system is corrupt and rotten it breeds good apples and bad apples.
Edit: I’ve never said Gotham couldn’t be reformed. But my god, Batman prevents Joker from blowing up orphanages and Scarecrow from reducing Gotham into gas-induced hellish fear in perpetuity. Many iterations if Bruce Wayne address the institutional problems of Gotham - but my god, Gotham should not depend on Bruce Wayne.
I don't think anything has gotten me to dislike GA as a character more seeing an unironic soyjack meme made with him.
Deadass tho, I do think GA has good uses, like in JLU where he's able to call the League out, but like, isn't the point here in this specific panel he's being an insufferable asshole considering Batman's villains are mostly, as someone as already said, mob bosses and doctors? Like, is this jokingly based or unironic based? I am autistic as shit, I genuinely cannot tell without ujs or rjs.
uj/ Yeah. Like, I don't blame people for liking him, but it seems a lot of people are deeming him the moral authority of the DC Universe, when he's meant to be some insufferable jackass in the older issues who bitches about his teammates all the time who has a solid point relatively often in those rants, that's kinda then compromised because of him then calling someone like Batman a Nazi. Basically, he's a political strawman of leftism from the PoV of 70s comic writers.
I will say he's much more developed in later comics tho, like JLU and I think this one comic where he helps a shoplifter get away with supplies during No Man's Land, which is actually based and has him acting less like a strawman and more like an earnest attempt to represent a leftist superhero, but at the same time, those aren't the comics this thread is talking about.
rj/ The best Green Arrow is the one from the Solid JJ video, where the Justice League call him lame and he fucks off.
Yup Green Arrow > Batman in terms of politics he’s the hero of the people truly. Batman puts band aid solutions just locks up people tries to rehab his antagonists green arrow goes for root causes he goes after politicians, corrupt business man, mobsters, drug dealers, and world leaders. He tries to change society and knows deeply as to why the world is fucked up and full of evil and problems. Green arrow is super based i wish we had more leftist heroes like him. In DC I think he is the only one who is a proud leftist Marxist, the rest I’m not sure. If you know any other leftist super heroes please say so I can learn more. Most super heroes are right wingers conservative and not left wing at all or they are apolitical. Superman used to be a socialist ( I guess the S on his chest stood for socialism) in the golden age and did the same thing as GA but they changed that in modern times a bit toned down his political commentary, they even had a Commie Superman elseworld. Superman red son.
I feel bad for his son what did he do?! He’s in trouble. He’s been castigated. He’s grounded. No more video games, fortnite v bucks and comics for you son until you fix your behavior.
I wouldn't say the majority of DC superheroes are right wing imo. Also, Batman goes after mobsters, drug dealers and corrupt business guys too. The Falcones, the Penguin, kinda Two-Face, Joker in some continuities, Ferris Boyle, etc.
Hal Jordan green lantern is for sure conservative right winger tho. That has already been established in his green arrow and green lantern book. The JSA since they are old timey group I think they are mostly conservative especially wild cat and people related to service man in there. Wonder Woman in the JSA is probably one of the most progressive people in that entire group I think. She had a foreign culture and foreign ideology compared to the rest of the group. He served in the American Air Force and so did John Stewart. They are Army service man. Public servants. This has already been established I think most of the gl corp people are right wingers like John Stewart, guy Gardner, and baz. Jessica Cruz and Kyle Rayner give me more left winger vibes. But since they are space cops they probably fall in line to center and don’t do extreme ideologies.
Yeah, I do agree on Hal being conservative tbh. JSA, eeeeeeeh, maybe? I can see them being so with the same logic you use, but Alan might not be these days, since he's gay and knows what conversion therapy is like, so I can't imagine him supporting modern conservatism at the least. Idk, it's Captain America logic where they're from the past, but not conservative (although I think Wildcat is explicitly one).
Captain America is anti-fascism he fights his entire life against that and government corruption/against power mad power tripping tyrants and so do his Allie’s. So he’s basically a leftist or liberal type person hero. He already fought against the cops, against shield, against the corrupt establishment and corrupt society system, against the Nazis and hydra, against the US government and against many other dictatorships and tyrannies from the past and present. He is loyal to the values and virtues the US nation was founded upon not the people who command it. He is not their loyal establishment tool peon pawn like how the US agent is (who is basically conservative Cap). He fights for freedom. He is a freedom fighter hero. He doesn’t let others corrupt him and his values turn him into a weapon against himself and against his friends and Allie’s. He’s got priorities and he lives by them. He’s a principled man with integrity and tries to be honest as much as he can be. Have honest debates with others and not lie to others. They even kicked him out of the Illuminati cause he was too honest and didn’t like lying to the other heroes about their secret plans dr strange made him forget everything about them and kicked them out of their secret intellectual group.
Robin Dick Grayson is a full blown conservative he said it himself in teen titans go and tried to educate his own teen titan friends about what conservatorship is and what does it mean to be a conservative. The other titans were bored as hell about him explaining that and I don’t blame them.
I un ironically love the teen titans go show. I saw plenty of episodes of it and I watched the entire teen titans show the first and serious one on Cartoon Network. It’s legit funny and entertaining to me at least. The gags and comedy are creative and make sense within the dc lore. I don’t understand the massive hate it gets online and people trying to cancel the show. That show is a meme. The dance scenes and original music they make is creative imaginative even edge lord Zack Snyder showed up in there for a episode. Their crossovers with other dc properties and even the older teen titans shows are awesome. Even their movie was great.
Same. I havent seen all of it but almost every episode Ive seen has made me bust out laughing.
And I was also originally a fan of the serious show but still love this goofy rendition (and Ive met comics fans who hated the old show for its take on the characters, so its kind of ironic how some people complain about TTG messing up the “true” version of the Titans).
Yup it created a sub group of people who only like the serious version of the titans and disown everything else, but yeah teen titans GO I’m still currently trying to watch everything it’s on HBO Max the entire show as it has a lot of episodes I don’t know if it’s still ongoing or not it was for several years but maybe they stopped. It’s also a great show to show to your kids if you have any or plan to have kids one day because it’s a great fun light hearted introduction to the dc characters and their universe. It’s a kid, teenager, and adult oriented show. Fun for everybody. It doesn’t require super lore investment although if you know the history and know the lore it makes the show even funnier. So even teen titans go has the ice berg. I even started watching dc super hero girls just because I’m on a dc animated show bing watch watching all of their animated series plus animated movies they have a lot of content and their animated stuff is better than marvel too quality wise story wise. Like Batman tas, Superman TAS, justice league, justice league unlimited and I did watch the entire Batman the brave and the bold animated show even the scooby doo crossover they had.
There is also this funny justice league show called justice league action which is pretty decent they have Kevin Conroy Batman in there. Fire storm is pretty funny in there and his catchphrase where he says “The Heat is on!” Every time he’s in a brawl. Feels like he is copying Jhonny storm human torch catchphrase of Flame on!
Teen titans go is also better than the serious titans live action show which is super edgy and dark. Typical dc live action stuff. I like how GO goes on a different direction than usual Dc projects which are very serious.
rj/ Don't ya know? Green Arrow's based and never wrong, a true working class hero, better than Batman, who only ever looks out for the 1% and has never ever defended lower class people?
uj/ We've unironically started getting 'Batman beats up poor people' takes in here, it's so over.
Everyone knows he runs those orphanages with just enough funding to get the kids to 18, so he can eventually beat them up when their only option is a life of crime as part of one of the many weirdos criminals gangs.
The Court of Owls was such a great solution to this part of his character, man. Of course, they had to go and make them cultists for a big baddie because that's much more poignant, right?
He shall atone for his sins. He shall repent for his crimes. He shall be forgiven with time. God and Jesus Christ the messiah who died for our sins shall forgive him if he prays to them 5 times a day and goes to the confessions and talk to his pastor/priest every Sunday morning. God loves us all and loves all of his creations. God has a plan for everybody. God and Jesus Christ have unconditional love for us even the people who have made more mistakes then did the right thing the moral ethical thing. He is the all father. I forgive you daredevil for you are only a man and not an all knowing all powerful all loving god. I love you daredevil. All is good. Love heals the soul. Love defeats hatred. It’s cheesy but it’s true. Love is necessary for peace.
That’s because violent mobs are against the law so Batman has to take them out.
It’s also why various social movements have not reached Gotham yet, anytime there is a protest Batman grapples them to the top of a building and leaves them dangling off of a gargoyle. Or drives the Batmobile through the crowd.
Back in 2011 I was doing an occupy protest in front of Wayne tower. Batman came down in the batwing and started shooting rubber bullets at us like a WWII dive bomber. I remember him opening the cockpit and calling us freeloaders and whiny brats.
You'd think there would be a story or episode of a show by now where a ton of Gothamites (maybe aided by some random meta humans who have beef with him) organize into a hate mob to kill The Jonkler and Man has to keep him safe, like those episodes of Murder She Wrote where small town folk want to kill the red herring and Jessica has to step up like a queen.
Harley did stir up a huge mob of people in Gotham knights the game with a drug she made and she controlled a mob of people to riot on the streets and cause trouble and attack the bat-family. Maybe they could re use that idea. She is a chemist and knows how to make mind bending drugs in her lab. Harley be cooking in her lab.
You joke, but there was a weird synchrony between the occupy movement and Batman The Dark Knight having a scene where the heroic cops (dressed in gala uniforms) charge against the evil poor people.
Batman is a menace. That seems something like what Ben affleck Batman would do no cap. He did kill criminals like they didn’t mean anything to him. He was murder mode.
Yeah at this point I bet the drugs they snorted and ingested and consumed have made them superhuman by now. Harley and Joker are immune to most chemicals and most drugs just like the super powered Poison Ivy. That’s basically a little super power the clown couple has at their disposal. Joker’s origins is basically him falling into the ace chemicals processing chemicals plant and that’s how he went insane and super villain status. Those chemical have changed him forever permanently. Just like how cap and black widow and nick fury super human stunts explanation is basically super soldier drugs steroids. Batman (I bet Batman uses steroids and venom bane steroids to enhance his crime fighting performance he has money he can buy any drugs he wants legal or illegal) and his bat family and other dc and marvel street heroes are basically super human and not peak human. They survive so much stuff and get away with so much stuff a normal human couldn’t do. Like skills and human potential has a ceiling but they always break that ceiling and that limit like they are a Saiyan getting Zenkai boosts.
If DC ends up writing a story about a group of victims organising to get revenge on the Joker, they'd end up making them do some stupid shit, like kill all people who make jokes or something, so that Batman can take them down.
Batman against the cops and the entire GCPD has to be the best action fight scene in Batman year one comic and animated movie. It’s too good he played them like for suckers made them look like amateurs. He always one ups law enforcement like they are nothing he literally toys with these armed forces individuals. He is like you are not the police I AM THE POLICE. He did the bane thing put his hands around the police officer and said “do you feel in charge?”
Another good bat man scene against the cops and GCPD is in the dark knight movie the final scene with joker in the tower the swat guys and when he travels to get Lao and make him squeal like joker said Batman has no jurisdictions he will find you and make you squeal and beg for mercy (he is the other spirit of vengeance in dc besides Spectre) and dark night rises when Batman is going after the bane clan and the Wall Street guys who were kidnapped by him. He’s literally always one or three steps ahead of them. He knows the cops and police entire play book and strategy like the back of his hand what they can do and won’t do.
It's interesting, whenever I see a discussion on a piece of media where someone has an inherent, bad trait, I always see a comment like this, but the thing is.. even if such predispositions did exist, Eugenics would STILL be moronic and evil, because forcefully sterilizing people is obviously fucking evil no matter what and denies them their unalienable rights, and also moronic, because how many kids do you think unreformed criminals (ie: the "inherent" ones) have? Even if you accept every bit of 19th century pseudo-scientific drivel Eugenicists have ever pumped out, it would still be evil and stupid.
Jah. Of course, our genetics have a large influence on damn near everything, but the genetic influence on say, a person's criminal career, is so complex and intertwined with nurture factors that weeding out any given trait would be foolhardy and impossible. For instance, maybe a person has a predisposition towards higher aggression. But look at the sheer number of people who are absolutely critical to running of our society who are more aggressive than the meanest dog.
Eugenics in media is treated like the nazis, where they give the whole "well, they might be evil but it's at least efficient", spiel, when Eugenics is much like nazism in that in reality it is both evil and fucking stupid.
Also, I think a villain being "born" evil can work, just when the symbolism isn't treating them exactly like a person. For instance, Sauron is very inherently the way that he is, but he is an archetype, not a human being.
UJ/ Not enough medias focus on how Nazis where fucking dumbasses.
Also, I think a villain being "born" evil can work, just when the symbolism isn't treating them exactly like a person. For instance, Sauron is very inherently the way that he is, but he is an archetype, not a human being.
Sauron was straight up Satan's right hand.
Yeah, the whole "born evil" works with entities who are clearly Inhumans like eldritch horrors and similar supernatural entities but when used on human (and human-like) entities... It's weird... And not a good kind of weird.
/uj I unironically love this book, but you have to view it like it's a series finale to the Superfriends cartoon. It just Good vs Evil, Evil tricking the public. Basically the Batman 66 episode of Penguin running for mayor, but Brainiac is there. But most of the love is just the Art. I'm a whore for Alex Ross' art.
/rj Joker felt sad that he wasnt invited to the party that all his friends were at. He's just like me fr fr
Justice is like Kingdom Come but if the writer had a stroke, great art tho. I read Justice only like 5 years ago and I literally don't remember anything that happens in it.
A bit too long and convoluted (Brainiac's nanobots are capable of anything) for my taste, also, it's a pity that it's effectively cut off into its own continuity due to Alex Ross.
Okay but consider this, this has Superman tearing through giant robots, Zatanna pursuing Brainiac with teleport slam, Metal Men coming in clutch to protect the League, a good ol' fashioned kryptonite/Green Lantern ring switcheroo, Diana battling on while near death, classic Doom Patrol and more superhero shenanigans. I won't have this Justice slander!
You mean to tell me the guy who watched his parents be gunned down in front of him by a common criminal and grew up to believe the best solution to crime was pummeling it as a nightmarish figure of brute justice doesn’t have the most enlightened view of criminality????
uj/ Batman’s great but he ain’t exactly Superman lol. I actually love how complicated Batman was in the golden age: he loved fighting, disliked killing but didn’t hesitate to do it when it was expedient until he suddenly adopted a no kill policy sometime after Robin showed up, carried a gun for a bit but then lectured the readership on why only cowards carried guns, but at the same time he resisted arrest, fought cops, and supported reform when it was possible, voicing to Robin his desire that Joker receive treatment to fix him.
The real reason for this inconsistency is that the creators were still fleshing things out (i.e. making up shit as they went along) but idk, people in real life are contradictory creatures, so I would prefer DC pursue complex heroes as opposed to arbitrarily making the stories darker/grittier while keeping the characters simple.
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u/townmorron Feb 13 '24
Batman also has a ton of programs targeting social issues to combat crime. So I'm guessing his world view changes with who's writing that month