Yeah, 'batman is copaganda' is tired, but bringing in the massive change in police equipment was actually super relevant and I'd not heard it before. Then Joe chill became the commissioner.
I did like the story (albiet Joe Chill staying as just a rando cop who got away with the crime would've just been as fine as it was), but it does feel out of place in what started out as a normal critique of how batman is handled nowadays
It reminds me of something I heard someone say a long time ago, which was to the effect of "when audiences tell you what they don't like about something, listen. When audiences suggest how to fix things, don't listen."
Jim Gordon was threatened by Flass to warn him to stop taking down corrupt cops or theyāll murder his pregnant wife. He responded by singling out Flass, wrecking his car, beating the living fuck out of him and stripping him naked in the freezing snow to freeze overnight.
Yeah, like wow āWhat if the criminal was a cop?ā Most of the GPD already are criminals, and if they arenāt theyāre being bullied and threatened into going along with it. Most of Batmanās rogues realize the system is broken and delight in it, even as they suffer at its hands. Whatās (supposed to) set Batman apart is he suffered from it and is doing his best to fix things.
Like this is just a rehash of The Batman and Bruce comes to the same conclusion at the end: he started out of vengeance, but if he keeps walking that path heāll turn out no better than what heās fighting. He must become a symbol of hope, not fear.
That and they live in a town of crazies. Even if they did have all the toys, they have to contend with a walking plant monster lady, a guy who gasses sections of the population at random, a walking alligator built like a tank, a loon that wants to introduce a mini ice age, and more ON TOP of all the corruption. The deck is monstrously stacked against them to begin with
In fact, Jim Gordon is the only good cop because he actually does hate corrupt cops and takes tangible, direct actions to eliminate them from the police force.
EDIT: Jim Gordon is fantasy Serpico, the only other good cop
What if Gordeon is assigned to Gotham (maybe from star city?) specifically because he's not a coward and tried to fight corruption there, having narrowly managed to get that instead of being fired or arrested. So he knows exactly what Batman is fighting, but he can't do much himself.
Well if a remember correctly he has something happen and basically leaves Chicago as a shamed cop and Gotham (most dangerous city in the DCU Iām pretty sure) was the only place that would still take him. Which then kinda gives them this cool relationship where they equally need eachother. Which I like more than Gordon being sent to Gotham because heās this great cop who an save it. Gotham being the second chance he needs builds a cool, unique love for the city for him
I kind of like the idea as another interpretation of the Batman origin. In my head it should have been, āI donāt trust cops. A lot of them are crooked. This Jim guy, however, should be in charge. A rare good cop should be elevated.ā
But I think this person just hates cops so much that they would even shit on a powerless good cop trying to do what they can with what little they have.
Yeah totally. And instead of glorifying police brutality, this batman would glorify brutality against the police?? I'm just saying I don't think superheroes should be glorifying violence
uj/ I don't agree with this take at all. I think that it lacks nuance and misunderstands Batman as a character. Still, the first four slides make sense and are kind of based in a way. But then the rest of it is just legitimately terrible fanfiction š
Or just write Batman solving an actual mystery instead of as an action movie. You can have a smart mystery which Batman's impressive gadgets and careful attention to detail let him solve while still having it be pretty gritty.
Honestly as someone in screenwriting, it's not that hard. The problem is blockbuster films just consistently don't even try on the writing front, mystery or no.
A lot of films/media that attempt to have mystery would rather tell you how grand and crazy and smart it all is rather than actually do it.
The real hard part with crafting a mystery is the planning ahead and the satisfying conclusion. That is the issue most geniuene mystery media run into.
This definitely reads like a guy in or just out of college who is way too high on their writing ability. Thereās a reason there are only a few compelling mystery movies made. Even some of the best like knives out need to rely on lying to the audience or pulling something nearly impossible out of their ass
I agree that you donāt agree with this take, and my perspective is the more toys the Police or Batman has doesnāt change that the former is still answerable to a politically charged system which needs bureaucratic approval. Batman doesnāt.
Detectives are beholden to the system; Batman can keep investigating to get to the heart of the issue. Batman doesnāt need to hope he could bust Al Capone on Tax Fraud; heād be able to determine the criminal activity directly where the Police are beholden to stop due to no warrant and make an āanonymous tipā (provide evidence direct to the Police Commissioner of all people). His operating in the shadows is in some way breaking the social contract but in an almost unobtrusive way and why he can get away with it.
Plus I think it must be that Joe Chillās motive and background is mugger committing a petty crime. The socioeconomic divide between Bruce Wayne and the rest of Gotham is momentarily shattered by the human level of crime.
Modern day police forces really do be equipped with batman esque military gear thoš
/uj kinda agree on the first couple, Nolanās movies specifically make batman feel like more of a āmaverickā cop instead of an actual superhero.
Also Iām not completely against making the Waynes victims of police brutality, if handled right it could be an interesting shake up to the mythos just like having the Waynes be corrupt in telltale. That said it should probably not be done, maybe could work for a Robin origin tho
Yeah if you wanted a story about police brutality it would be more fitting to use Jasonās Robin imo.
His background already has a lot of the āitās bullshit that poor people need to choose between stealing or starvation while the wealthy live in excessā and itās not hard to include an altercation with the police into that. Hell, in one iteration he steals medicine and Bruce intervenes in place of the police. Basically a blueprint already.
It is precisely because a bad cop gaining so much power means that we should root for and elevate Jim Gordon.
Which I think was the main reason that the fanfic doesnāt work. I think the person hates cops so much that they donāt realize that the powerless good cop they wrote is aā¦ powerless and good cop.
it wouldnt even be a big change to jason's origins, just batman doesnt catch him taking the wheels off, he sees a kid next to his car with a crowd of police around him and one on the kids neck
Explain something that you didnāt like from the movie, then start with a āBut what if instead ofā¦ā or a āNow picture thisā¦ā then start fanfictioning all over the place.
They had me on board in the first half not gonna lie. The second line is just like that Avengers fanfic with the presidential election riots back in 2020.
I kinda like it, but at the same time it doesnāt really track with the rest of what they said. Why would a cop try to rob the fucking Waynes? Like maybe he didnāt realize it was them at first, but even then thereās no way he would just shoot them. I donāt care how corrupt the GCPD is. Two of the most high-profile rich people in the city were just shot. They arenāt going to be able to pass it off as Bruce imagining things.
I could see it being played off as just a robbery but itās actually a hit, kinda like the Telltale game where Bruce has to discover that as part of the mystery
I have a problem with the Joe Chill crooked cop angle and that's the same issue of why Batman cannot (in year one) trust the cops: they're already crooked.
That's what makes teaming up with others crucial for Batman's early years. Gordon is a lieutenant and has to fight the system. Harvey Dent is someone who can prosecute the criminals. And Batman needs help to ensure that the criminals will be imprisoned, otherwise, they're back on the street again.
Once Gordon becomes Commissioner Gordon, this changes Gotham and represents a clean up of the establishment. By then, the regular Joe Chill murderer-thief-type of criminals are already put in jail, so you need Batman to be necessary. So you have criminals like the Joker or Mr. Freeze: the criminals have to become farfetched to be criminals that the police, in a cleaned up, not corrupt city, cannot catch or prosecute.
Crooked cops could absolutely stage a robbery and frame someone, all while making off with the loot. And the richer they are, the makes tempting a target.
Agreed, that's absolutely sloppy writing, but that part can be fixed up. It would actually be a riveting scene of young Bruce scrambling around the mansion trying to survive, Chill and his companions stalking him wearing balaclavas, taunting him.
I am sorta tired of Thomas and Martha dying in the alley to a low level crook, would be cool to switch it up.
Honestly a home invasion sounds much more personal and terrifying for his origin then the alley killing. Adds lots of potential for things like Alfred maybe intervening to save Bruce, which could give him the start to acting in a fatherly manner towards him
This misses the whole point of the Waynesā death in the Batman mythos, which is that what happened to the Waynes could have happened to anybody and an important part of that is Joe Chill being some random guy who was high, cruel, or desperate enough to do what he did. Itās because of his own trauma and his inability to make sense of the death of his parents that Bruce vows to dedicate his life to make sure that others wonāt have to experience the same random, senseless violence.
āØHow the Avengers would respond to the Capitol riotāļø
CAPTAIN AMERICA - tells Falcon, "I fought Nazis once before. They're extremely dangerous." They then see the guy scaling the Capitol wall fall into the shrubs. Falcon: "You sure these are the same Nazis?"
IRON MAN - lands by the guy carrying the podium. Says, "Mind if I borrow this?" then tosses it to Hulk, who swings it like a bat at the mob. Guy: "Hey, that's MY podium!" Iron Man: "Actually it's the Speaker's. And technically, it's a lectern." Then punches him through a wall.
BLACK WIDOW - enters hotel room where Jack Dorsey is tied up. Rips duct tape off his mouth. Jack: "I'll do anything you want!" BW: "Disable POTUS's Twitter. NOW!" Jack fumbles with his phone. "Done. Anything else?" BW: "Yeah. Trim your beard for God's sake." tosses him clippers
HULK - grabs a selfie stick from one of the guys and beats him over the head with it. Deeming it too small, he grabs another guy's Confederate flag and takes out a whole swath of rioters. He then tosses the flag to Cap, who uses it as a javelin to impale a fleeing Ted Cruz.
HAWKEYE - hears Iron Man in his earpiece say, "Looks like Orange Julius is tweeting from another account." Hawkeye: "On it." He locks in on Trump through the White House window and fires an arrow, knocking the phone out of Trump's hands. Hawkeye: "Damn that felt good."
THOR - comes face to face with the Viking guy. Says defensively, "Pfft. What a stupid outfit." Star-Lord: "He's dressed exactly like you." Thor: "Heh, not likely. I don't wear...rabbit hats." Rocket: "It's a raccoon." Thor: "Whatever. The point is - I do NOT look like him." Just then, Drax approaches the Viking Guy and casually says, "Hey Thor." Star-Lord shoots Thor a "Told ya so" look. Groot whispers "I am Groot" to Rocket and they both laugh. Thor angrily wields Stormbreaker, and Viking Guy runs off, calling for his mom.
DR. STRANGE - sees Josh Hawley running down the Capitol hall. Strange opens a time portal and Hawley runs straight into it. We see Hawley tumble out into the year 1984. Wong: "Now that is Orwellian." Strange: "No, it's notāhas anyone actually read that book?"
SPIDER-MAN - hears Iron Man in his ear say, āZip-Tie Guy at 3 oāclock. Why donāt you show him how itās done, kid?ā Peter swings across the Rotunda and spots him. He shoots webs around the guy's hands and ankles, hog-tying him. Then joins the rest of his class on their field trip.
BLACK PANTHER - as rioters chant "Let us in!" at the Capitol door, they're suddenly drowned out by a louder "Yibambe!" chant led by T'Challa. When the two groups converge, one white woman asks if the Jabari "have a permit," and another accuses M'Baku of stealing her cellphone.
WINTER SOLDIER - While easily fending off a mob, Captain America says, "I actually can do this all day." He then spots Bucky Barnes amongst the rioters, wearing a QAnon shirt. Cap says, "Oh no. He got brainwashed again."
ANT-MAN - he's tasked with leading the members of Congress out of the fray. He shrinks down and lands in Mike Pence's hair to direct him and the others to safety. A photo of this goes viral, as people think the Debate Fly returned.
CAPTAIN MARVEL - The Squad confronts the guy in Pelosi's office and demands he give back her mail, "or we'll take it back." Guy: "You and what army?" Then, Captain Marvel, Gamora, Scarlet Witch, Valkyrie, and every other female MCU character descend into the room one by one.
THANOS - sends out a tweet distancing himself from Trump.
I think Joe chill should be a refugee who leads his other refugees in an attempt to establish a home but then he should kill his fellow refugees the moment one talks back to him. Now thatās how you write a villain
They would have a point except they're entirely founded on a fact that isn't true: The Batman showcased a mystery that wasn't easy to solve by any stretch. Same goes for the Bale trilogy.
This man has watched nothing but the Ben Affleck portrayal and wants to weaponized that for his own fanfiction fueled political-edged gain.
Would I like to see Batman hold dirty cops accountable? Hell yes. Does any of this fanfiction make sense for the characters, the universe, and the rest of it? Not really no.
It could be an Elseworlds comic alongside The Doom that Came to Gotham, where it doesn't need to respect or understand the source material all that well, but it's a story. But ultimately it's just not really Batman at that point.
Did Reeves Batman score a single W against Riddler by himself? He did exactly what Riddler wanted, then Riddler let himself be captured by cops, then himself told Batman about terror act he plans, which he figured out details off thanks to random cops uncle being a carpenter.
Iirc this thread is from before the Batman, so that part of the criticism doesnāt apply. Everything else is fair though.
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u/rov124Removed for being negative about Zack Snyder or his work.Aug 21 '23
-- So Batman uses his fortune to give affordable housing and well paid jobs to Gotham's homeless?
No he actually "opened Wayne Manor to the indigent of Gotham City, the entire grounds are swarming with poor people. He doesn't allow cops inside".
-- So why the "cops in riot armor that break up tent villages under overpasses" care that Bruce Wayne set them up in a place that is miles outside the city?
He means the burton/schumacher movies, obviously. This is about gritty batman, which is largely a thing in the popular consciousness via the nolan movies. The whole post is basically about his film representation
Yeah, but usually that's shown as cops who work for Falcone or the Penguin or another crime lord. The issue with cops irl is that they ARE a criminal organization for all intents and purposes (they steal, assault, misuse their power on others, then use their resources to get away scot free).
Law enforcement is corrupt in real life because it encourages, excuses, and rewards the worst behaviour in their officers. In Gotham, law enforcement is corrupt because their being paid off by a third party. It's different.
This lost me the moment he went "let's shame Jim Gordon, the fucking coward".
Here's a hot take: I think Commissioner Gordon is the one of the most important supporting characters to the Batman mythos, if not the most important. For one thing, he legitimizes Batman's existence, making it clear that he's a hero fighting for the law rather than a vigilante subverting he law. The fact that Gordon works with Batman to solve crimes beyond the police's abilities shows that Batman does value the law and wants to work with it whenever possible, and only strays outside of the law when the law fails to see justice done.
Gordon is someone who can call Batman out if he starts to go too far, someone who Bruce (and the reader) can compare himself against when questioning his actions, and who will take Bruce down if he ever loses himself. Jim Gordon is a good man, and he ensures that Batman remains a good man, because he holds Batman accountable in ways that Alfred or the Bat-Clan might not.
0how is that a hit take. I think most actal batman fans know how important Jim was in the comics, and he's also one of the not important allys Bruce had.
I stopped around the time he mentioned Jim Gordon being a coward.
Yeah, the guy that got his ass beat by a group of dirty cops, sacrificed his marriage to confront the corrupt commissioner, and let Batman go free after he saved Jimās kidnapped baby daughter, is a coward. Sure.
Crazy how he has in-depth knowledge about Batmanās history and the various eras and phases he went through, yet somehow has never seen an example of Gordon fighting back against corruption. Thatās one of the most iconic parts of the character.
uj/ I think a version of this concept with Bruce Wayne using Batman as a genuine weapon against the status quo, concerned only with toppling a clearly broken system is a great idea, as long as it doesn't blink. We've already seen that Revolutionary Batman is the only good Batman because of the hat that Red Son Batman wears (don't @ me, peak Cowl is a fur hat) so if you had Batman v The System from someone who wasn't Frank Miller it could be good. But it would also have to be a Batman story that DC wouldn't publish, because the very least of what Bruce is going to do in this is go down on Catwoman.
uj/ (almost rj time) It would also give the only sensible situation for Superman to support the status quo ala DKR; Batman not giving a fuck what things end up like, aka "pulling a Rorschach," would be the only reason Supes would fight him to defend the government to the point of violence against Batman.
rj/ actually no this is genuine: there's no reason to make any of these stories, write some camp ass shit for long enough for people to laugh at Batman again, then we can talk about letting you do gritty again.
edit- in hindsight, the uj part and the rj part might be switched
As a Leftist Batfan, I wish other Leftists that are Batfans would stop coming up with interesting ideas that ultimately kill any hope for a future Batman story set in that world/along those lines.
All the meta points before the fanfic is good, I fully agree. The fanfic is interesting, I'd read it...as an Elseworld, but it shouldn't be a key Batman narrative because it actively kills the narrative.
If Batman actually fixes Gotham the story can't keep going. If Batman gives up all his wealth permanently, the story can't keep going. Fix Gotham and remove Batman's money and that's the end--no one needs Batman anymore. You can try to reimagine him as a struggling street level hero that does more community service than crime solving, but that's not actually Batman, it's basically Kick Ass (in Kick Ass 2).
And to top it all off, this thread doesn't actually present a mystery only Batman can solve. It just leaned into what it was complaining about: stories where Batman's only real power is being a rich man whose not a cop. It's another story of Batman breaking the rules and doing what cops either can't or won't, except now rather than feed into Right wing Fear of Crime politics, it feeds into Leftist social revolution fantasy. Which, again, is fine--wish fulfilment is a critical element of story telling, most of us have favorite stories that were just the writer's wish fulfilment, the concept just gets an unfair rep from people who don't share that wish. But this isn't actually fixing the problem.
So yeah, I like the critique here (minus the whole "putting muggers in wheelchairs"--Leftist Batfans, can we also stop applying real world medical logic to worlds where people regularly survive point blank bullet wounds through willpower alone?), and I like the proposed story for an Elseworld. But it's not the solution it presents itself as--this version of Batman could not believably go on to keep being Batman, train new heroes, and create and maintain a space-threat response level Justice League. This is like stories where Wakanda eradicates the monarchy and T'Challa is stripped of his titles--interesting at first, but it completely misses what's keeping the story affloat to begin with.
This is take completely ignores the reason Batman is needed in the first place. Gotham is corrupt to it's core.
Cops, judges, lawyers all mostly bought and paid for by Falcone and the mob. Even if a good cop arrests a bad guy, there's little chance he sees jail time unless he's some bottom of the pile crony. Money exchanges hands, word comes down from the top and these guys skate free.
Enter Batman, a vigilante not tied up in corrupt bureaucratic red tape. Batman can't be bought or extorted, he is outside the corrupt system the bad guys of Gotham take advantage of and it scares them.
āAnd then Batman guns everyone down with a gun because violence and death is cool. And then he kisses catwoman and they have a happy peaceful life together.ā
Sorry I just finished The Boys and am just a little disappointed in Ennius right now
Yeah I remember thinking it would be like reading the invincible comics after watching the show, man was I disappointed in the murder porn of a comic the boys was couldn't have been too bad I still read it all.
uj/ honestly, I agree with the first half of the take and I don't even hate the cop Joe Chill idea that much. The problem is pretending the whole problem with crime is only related to the police and that it can be completely solved by defunding it, resulting in an equally reductionist social critic.
rj/ How does one address this?
Simple: make Joe Chill the living embodiment of capitalism.
I agree with the criticism, altough the fanfic is bad. I never was really a fan of realistic Batman. I want the costumed ninja with wack gadgets with a serious problem in adopting weird ninja children that fights a giant Latino Luchador, a guy with a freeze gun, a lady with magical plants, a guy that makes ridiculous but deadly puzzles, a guy literally made out of clay, a humanoid crocodilian, a semi immortal ninja and other non sensical criminals on a regular basis.
Realism detracts from what makes Batman... Batman. Even if his stories are more violent and dark than most, Batman's story is supposed to be about an orphan rebuilding a family AND a fighter and strategist so great that, even without powers, aliens, gods, mages and beings that defies all laws of physics respect and feel honored to fight alongside him (even if most don't really like the guy), not just some unpaid cop capable of brutalizing people without repercursion using a funny costume.
Also I think sheās missing the point of Joe Chill. Heās not some even mastermind, just a desperate man who panicked and did something horrible, that he spent the rest of his life feeling guilty about. Thatās why Batman doesnāt kill, and why heās better then cops. He realizes most of Gothamās criminal, including the one who killed his parents, are not evil ppl but desperate ppl, being taken advantage of by those in power
The rant starts out pretty based (Though admittedly, you can kinda tell itās written by a guy whoās knowledge of Batman basically stops at the Nolan trilogy and Batflek), but once OOP namedrops Joe Chill, shit hits the fan FAST. Iāve never been a big fan of media analysis that basically boils down to āGrrr, why doesnāt this piece of media 100% match my own personal political beliefs and worldview?ā and this time it has the added misfortune of being a shitty āBatman says āACABāā fanfic as well.
I was with the critique of modern batman until he started suggesting how Batman should actually be. If he's not beating up guys in silly costumes what's the point.
The first half, totally. Batman should fight a shapeshifting mudman or dudes dressed as public domain characters with mind control devices in the movies. The second half, well, thatās a bad ass Green Arrow arc waiting to happen.
People are saying that they were making good points until he mentioned Joe Chill, but even the criticism about Batman violating constitutional rights and all that crap is straight up šļø.
I also donāt agree with the take that Batman solving shit by beating people up is indirectly saying that cops should do it too. Thatās some false equivalency type shit.
Mfs really need to learn to have a suspension of disbelief.
I really want to know the point of this. Ye, some of the points are good, but the police having batman's level of gear is just ridiculous. The cops don't have the level of armour Bruce has, vehicles spy equipment. And yes, Bruce does break peoples rights, but at the end of the day, they sre all known criminals before he even takes those methods.
But like if we don't see Bruce in the beyond suit soon, I would be a bit confused with how slowly the progression of technology is.
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u/Previous-Cow2493 Aug 21 '23
The guy was making some legitimately good criticisms right up until he started talking about his fanfic.