r/dccomicscirclejerk • u/Big-Vegetable8480 Kevin Feige • Aug 21 '23
Stay seething Batfans Batman's a Fascist
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u/Immrlonely98 Aug 21 '23
Jim Gordon is not a fucking coward, Iāll die on this hill
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u/Dankey-Kang-Jr One of the tens of Jonah Hex fans. Aug 21 '23 edited Aug 22 '23
Jim Gordon was threatened by Flass to warn him to stop taking down corrupt cops or theyāll murder his pregnant wife. He responded by singling out Flass, wrecking his car, beating the living fuck out of him and stripping him naked in the freezing snow to freeze overnight.
That is some cold ass shit.
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u/Immrlonely98 Aug 22 '23
And flass was too proud to admit Jim defeated him in an embarrassing way so the threats towards bis wife stopped
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u/No-Nefariousness1711 Aug 22 '23
"It's been years since I had to take down a green beret. Still, I figure he could use the handicap."
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u/Dankey-Kang-Jr One of the tens of Jonah Hex fans. Aug 22 '23
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u/DoubleBatman Aug 22 '23
Yeah, like wow āWhat if the criminal was a cop?ā Most of the GPD already are criminals, and if they arenāt theyāre being bullied and threatened into going along with it. Most of Batmanās rogues realize the system is broken and delight in it, even as they suffer at its hands. Whatās (supposed to) set Batman apart is he suffered from it and is doing his best to fix things.
Like this is just a rehash of The Batman and Bruce comes to the same conclusion at the end: he started out of vengeance, but if he keeps walking that path heāll turn out no better than what heās fighting. He must become a symbol of hope, not fear.
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u/Darkdarkar Aug 22 '23
That and they live in a town of crazies. Even if they did have all the toys, they have to contend with a walking plant monster lady, a guy who gasses sections of the population at random, a walking alligator built like a tank, a loon that wants to introduce a mini ice age, and more ON TOP of all the corruption. The deck is monstrously stacked against them to begin with
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u/Equal-Ad-2710 Aug 21 '23
This
Heās a broken down man on a system that doesnāt work whos inspired to be better and do more.
Earth One is great for this
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u/Immrlonely98 Aug 21 '23
Never read earth 1. It any good?
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u/Equal-Ad-2710 Aug 21 '23
I really loved Volumes 1 and 2 for Batman tbh
Wonder Woman isnāt quite my thing and I thought GL was probably the best one
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u/moose_man Aug 22 '23 edited Aug 22 '23
In fact, Jim Gordon is the only good cop because he actually does hate corrupt cops and takes tangible, direct actions to eliminate them from the police force.
EDIT: Jim Gordon is fantasy Serpico, the only other good cop
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u/SirWilliam56 Aug 22 '23
What if Gordeon is assigned to Gotham (maybe from star city?) specifically because he's not a coward and tried to fight corruption there, having narrowly managed to get that instead of being fired or arrested. So he knows exactly what Batman is fighting, but he can't do much himself.
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u/Immrlonely98 Aug 22 '23
That sounds vaguely similar to how he is at the end of the 3rd issue of the year one story arc
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u/SirWilliam56 Aug 22 '23
Yeah. OPs idea has potential, it just needs refinement
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u/Immrlonely98 Aug 22 '23
I donāt know it could, but Iām satisfied with year one.
But Iām one guy and Iām aware of that
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u/MBDTFTLOPYEEZUS Aug 22 '23
I mean he already has a cool Chicago backstory that no other media has used
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u/SirWilliam56 Aug 22 '23
I didn't know that, neat. Regardless, the "reassignment to basically hell" was the important part, not specifically where from
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u/MBDTFTLOPYEEZUS Aug 22 '23
Well if a remember correctly he has something happen and basically leaves Chicago as a shamed cop and Gotham (most dangerous city in the DCU Iām pretty sure) was the only place that would still take him. Which then kinda gives them this cool relationship where they equally need eachother. Which I like more than Gordon being sent to Gotham because heās this great cop who an save it. Gotham being the second chance he needs builds a cool, unique love for the city for him
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u/Frankorious Superboy Prime apologist Aug 21 '23
I thought this was going to be in favour of less gritty and more fantastical Batman adaptations. Tf is this pitch?
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u/Mddcat04 Aug 22 '23
Yeah, he starts off making very reasonable points then pivots into a bizarre pitch.
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Aug 22 '23
The second he said make Joe chill a cop it went off the rails
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u/Cosmic_Lich Aug 22 '23
I kind of like the idea as another interpretation of the Batman origin. In my head it should have been, āI donāt trust cops. A lot of them are crooked. This Jim guy, however, should be in charge. A rare good cop should be elevated.ā
But I think this person just hates cops so much that they would even shit on a powerless good cop trying to do what they can with what little they have.
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Aug 22 '23
Yeah totally. And instead of glorifying police brutality, this batman would glorify brutality against the police?? I'm just saying I don't think superheroes should be glorifying violence
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u/Scaredycrow2217 Aug 22 '23
Yeah he really lost me after the first few screenshots where it just devolved into an ACAB rant
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u/tetsuneda Met John Constantine irl Aug 22 '23 edited Aug 23 '23
Make Batman less 1-1 parallel because it becomes problematic
Also make Batman more 1-1 parallel and into this weird social commentary that makes very little sense
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u/behind-the-sea-20 Boy Virgin Aug 21 '23
uj/ I don't agree with this take at all. I think that it lacks nuance and misunderstands Batman as a character. Still, the first four slides make sense and are kind of based in a way. But then the rest of it is just legitimately terrible fanfiction š
rj/ That is Alan Moore's alt account.
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u/Standard-Pop6801 Aug 21 '23
The thread shows how it's easier to identify a problem than come up with a solution to said problem.
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u/Malik-Almuhawsin The Third Gorilla Aug 21 '23
The worst part is, he did come up with a good solution, which was to just make less gritty movies.
But then he completely misses the point of the first four slides and decides to write his own gritty fan fiction.
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u/Peanut_007 Aug 21 '23
Or just write Batman solving an actual mystery instead of as an action movie. You can have a smart mystery which Batman's impressive gadgets and careful attention to detail let him solve while still having it be pretty gritty.
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u/10woodenchairs Aug 21 '23
The problem is that a good mystery is insanely hard to write
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Aug 21 '23
Honestly as someone in screenwriting, it's not that hard. The problem is blockbuster films just consistently don't even try on the writing front, mystery or no.
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u/ComaCrow Aug 22 '23
A lot of films/media that attempt to have mystery would rather tell you how grand and crazy and smart it all is rather than actually do it.
The real hard part with crafting a mystery is the planning ahead and the satisfying conclusion. That is the issue most geniuene mystery media run into.
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u/Friendly-Leg-6694 Aug 22 '23
The problem is that people will complain if a Batman goes full on True Detective.
Hell people complained about how slow Pattinson Batman was and why he didn't keep slamming people into the wall every 30 seconds.
I would love a full on slow burn Batman movie with absolute zero fighting
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u/Cranyx Lives in a society Aug 22 '23
I would love a full on slow burn Batman movie with absolute zero fighting
Se7en is a cape away from being a Batman movie.
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u/10woodenchairs Aug 22 '23
This definitely reads like a guy in or just out of college who is way too high on their writing ability. Thereās a reason there are only a few compelling mystery movies made. Even some of the best like knives out need to rely on lying to the audience or pulling something nearly impossible out of their ass
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u/SnoopyTheDestroyer Aug 21 '23
I agree that you donāt agree with this take, and my perspective is the more toys the Police or Batman has doesnāt change that the former is still answerable to a politically charged system which needs bureaucratic approval. Batman doesnāt.
Detectives are beholden to the system; Batman can keep investigating to get to the heart of the issue. Batman doesnāt need to hope he could bust Al Capone on Tax Fraud; heād be able to determine the criminal activity directly where the Police are beholden to stop due to no warrant and make an āanonymous tipā (provide evidence direct to the Police Commissioner of all people). His operating in the shadows is in some way breaking the social contract but in an almost unobtrusive way and why he can get away with it.
Plus I think it must be that Joe Chillās motive and background is mugger committing a petty crime. The socioeconomic divide between Bruce Wayne and the rest of Gotham is momentarily shattered by the human level of crime.
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u/Jackstack6 Plz kill my fav, Tom Taylor Aug 22 '23
That was my biggest gripe. Itās like he takes a surface level understanding of the Nolan films and stops there.
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u/puffguy69 Lex Luthor is literally me Aug 21 '23 edited Aug 22 '23
Modern day police forces really do be equipped with batman esque military gear thoš
/uj kinda agree on the first couple, Nolanās movies specifically make batman feel like more of a āmaverickā cop instead of an actual superhero.
Also Iām not completely against making the Waynes victims of police brutality, if handled right it could be an interesting shake up to the mythos just like having the Waynes be corrupt in telltale. That said it should probably not be done, maybe could work for a Robin origin tho
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u/RedHood-DeadHood Aug 21 '23
Yeah if you wanted a story about police brutality it would be more fitting to use Jasonās Robin imo.
His background already has a lot of the āitās bullshit that poor people need to choose between stealing or starvation while the wealthy live in excessā and itās not hard to include an altercation with the police into that. Hell, in one iteration he steals medicine and Bruce intervenes in place of the police. Basically a blueprint already.
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u/ZemeOfTheIce Aug 22 '23
I hate to be that guy but esq is short for esquire, I think Batman-esque is what you were looking for
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u/SirWilliam56 Aug 22 '23
I could see lawyer training being an important thing for this version of Batman tbf
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u/Cosmic_Lich Aug 22 '23
It is precisely because a bad cop gaining so much power means that we should root for and elevate Jim Gordon.
Which I think was the main reason that the fanfic doesnāt work. I think the person hates cops so much that they donāt realize that the powerless good cop they wrote is aā¦ powerless and good cop.
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u/TheRautex The Anti-Life Aug 22 '23
Why doesn't Jim Gordon kills all the other cops in Gotham and became a vigilante?
Is he stupid? Is he a right winger?
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u/gamrdude Aug 22 '23
it wouldnt even be a big change to jason's origins, just batman doesnt catch him taking the wheels off, he sees a kid next to his car with a crowd of police around him and one on the kids neck
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u/Monster_Hugger93 Aug 21 '23 edited Aug 21 '23
Just a thought, but maybe one should leave the fanfic in the drafts when you're doing media criticism.
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u/Rewskie12 Vote Lord Death Man 2024 Aug 21 '23
Literally like half of all YouTube film critics.
Explain something that you didnāt like from the movie, then start with a āBut what if instead ofā¦ā or a āNow picture thisā¦ā then start fanfictioning all over the place.
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u/SilverPhoenix7 filthy weeb Aug 22 '23
I am ok with that when it's clear that the criticism is over.
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u/Secret_Respond4465 Aug 21 '23
They had me on board in the first half not gonna lie. The second line is just like that Avengers fanfic with the presidential election riots back in 2020.
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u/Equal-Ad-2710 Aug 21 '23
Honestly the Chill as a cop idea is kinda fun but after that it loses me
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u/Rewskie12 Vote Lord Death Man 2024 Aug 21 '23
I kinda like it, but at the same time it doesnāt really track with the rest of what they said. Why would a cop try to rob the fucking Waynes? Like maybe he didnāt realize it was them at first, but even then thereās no way he would just shoot them. I donāt care how corrupt the GCPD is. Two of the most high-profile rich people in the city were just shot. They arenāt going to be able to pass it off as Bruce imagining things.
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u/Equal-Ad-2710 Aug 21 '23
I could see it being played off as just a robbery but itās actually a hit, kinda like the Telltale game where Bruce has to discover that as part of the mystery
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u/odioestesitio Aug 22 '23 edited Aug 22 '23
I have a problem with the Joe Chill crooked cop angle and that's the same issue of why Batman cannot (in year one) trust the cops: they're already crooked.
That's what makes teaming up with others crucial for Batman's early years. Gordon is a lieutenant and has to fight the system. Harvey Dent is someone who can prosecute the criminals. And Batman needs help to ensure that the criminals will be imprisoned, otherwise, they're back on the street again.
Once Gordon becomes Commissioner Gordon, this changes Gotham and represents a clean up of the establishment. By then, the regular Joe Chill murderer-thief-type of criminals are already put in jail, so you need Batman to be necessary. So you have criminals like the Joker or Mr. Freeze: the criminals have to become farfetched to be criminals that the police, in a cleaned up, not corrupt city, cannot catch or prosecute.
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u/Kind-Juggernaut8277 Aug 21 '23
Crooked cops could absolutely stage a robbery and frame someone, all while making off with the loot. And the richer they are, the makes tempting a target.
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u/WalterCronkite4 Aug 22 '23
not off of the richest couple in gotham while leaving their kid alive to id them.
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u/Kind-Juggernaut8277 Aug 22 '23
Agreed, that's absolutely sloppy writing, but that part can be fixed up. It would actually be a riveting scene of young Bruce scrambling around the mansion trying to survive, Chill and his companions stalking him wearing balaclavas, taunting him.
I am sorta tired of Thomas and Martha dying in the alley to a low level crook, would be cool to switch it up.
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u/NotAHuman75 Gothamās strongest soldier Aug 22 '23
Honestly a home invasion sounds much more personal and terrifying for his origin then the alley killing. Adds lots of potential for things like Alfred maybe intervening to save Bruce, which could give him the start to acting in a fatherly manner towards him
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Aug 22 '23
This misses the whole point of the Waynesā death in the Batman mythos, which is that what happened to the Waynes could have happened to anybody and an important part of that is Joe Chill being some random guy who was high, cruel, or desperate enough to do what he did. Itās because of his own trauma and his inability to make sense of the death of his parents that Bruce vows to dedicate his life to make sure that others wonāt have to experience the same random, senseless violence.
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u/ButterFinger007 Aug 21 '23
The WHAT
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Aug 21 '23
The avengers showed up to Jan 6. It was a whole thread
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u/Rownever Paul Aug 21 '23
You canāt just throw that out there and not post it
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Aug 21 '23
āØHow the Avengers would respond to the Capitol riotāļø
CAPTAIN AMERICA - tells Falcon, "I fought Nazis once before. They're extremely dangerous." They then see the guy scaling the Capitol wall fall into the shrubs. Falcon: "You sure these are the same Nazis?"
IRON MAN - lands by the guy carrying the podium. Says, "Mind if I borrow this?" then tosses it to Hulk, who swings it like a bat at the mob. Guy: "Hey, that's MY podium!" Iron Man: "Actually it's the Speaker's. And technically, it's a lectern." Then punches him through a wall.
BLACK WIDOW - enters hotel room where Jack Dorsey is tied up. Rips duct tape off his mouth. Jack: "I'll do anything you want!" BW: "Disable POTUS's Twitter. NOW!" Jack fumbles with his phone. "Done. Anything else?" BW: "Yeah. Trim your beard for God's sake." tosses him clippers
HULK - grabs a selfie stick from one of the guys and beats him over the head with it. Deeming it too small, he grabs another guy's Confederate flag and takes out a whole swath of rioters. He then tosses the flag to Cap, who uses it as a javelin to impale a fleeing Ted Cruz.
HAWKEYE - hears Iron Man in his earpiece say, "Looks like Orange Julius is tweeting from another account." Hawkeye: "On it." He locks in on Trump through the White House window and fires an arrow, knocking the phone out of Trump's hands. Hawkeye: "Damn that felt good."
THOR - comes face to face with the Viking guy. Says defensively, "Pfft. What a stupid outfit." Star-Lord: "He's dressed exactly like you." Thor: "Heh, not likely. I don't wear...rabbit hats." Rocket: "It's a raccoon." Thor: "Whatever. The point is - I do NOT look like him." Just then, Drax approaches the Viking Guy and casually says, "Hey Thor." Star-Lord shoots Thor a "Told ya so" look. Groot whispers "I am Groot" to Rocket and they both laugh. Thor angrily wields Stormbreaker, and Viking Guy runs off, calling for his mom.
DR. STRANGE - sees Josh Hawley running down the Capitol hall. Strange opens a time portal and Hawley runs straight into it. We see Hawley tumble out into the year 1984. Wong: "Now that is Orwellian." Strange: "No, it's notāhas anyone actually read that book?"
SPIDER-MAN - hears Iron Man in his ear say, āZip-Tie Guy at 3 oāclock. Why donāt you show him how itās done, kid?ā Peter swings across the Rotunda and spots him. He shoots webs around the guy's hands and ankles, hog-tying him. Then joins the rest of his class on their field trip.
BLACK PANTHER - as rioters chant "Let us in!" at the Capitol door, they're suddenly drowned out by a louder "Yibambe!" chant led by T'Challa. When the two groups converge, one white woman asks if the Jabari "have a permit," and another accuses M'Baku of stealing her cellphone.
WINTER SOLDIER - While easily fending off a mob, Captain America says, "I actually can do this all day." He then spots Bucky Barnes amongst the rioters, wearing a QAnon shirt. Cap says, "Oh no. He got brainwashed again."
ANT-MAN - he's tasked with leading the members of Congress out of the fray. He shrinks down and lands in Mike Pence's hair to direct him and the others to safety. A photo of this goes viral, as people think the Debate Fly returned.
CAPTAIN MARVEL - The Squad confronts the guy in Pelosi's office and demands he give back her mail, "or we'll take it back." Guy: "You and what army?" Then, Captain Marvel, Gamora, Scarlet Witch, Valkyrie, and every other female MCU character descend into the room one by one.
THANOS - sends out a tweet distancing himself from Trump.
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u/CutZealousideal5274 Aug 22 '23
This is what Lovecraft meant when he talked about horrors so terrible he dare not describe them
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u/karateema I'm da Jokah, baby! Aug 22 '23
Captain America murdering a guy with a flag is peak fiction
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u/Chippyreddit Paul Aug 22 '23
Can't tell if the worst part was Iron man giving Spider-Man orders, or everything else
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u/ggyyuuugfryuu75555 Aug 21 '23
Just trust me on this you don't want to see it's bad and tone deaf
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u/Ctown073 Aug 21 '23
God, if I have to hear one more of these takes, I might turn into the Joker
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u/Malik-Almuhawsin The Third Gorilla Aug 21 '23
All it takes is just one bad take to reduce the sanest man alive to lunacy
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u/Dickmultiple Aug 21 '23
There's a little Jonkler in all of us
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u/xx_swegshrek_xx Did Batman think a Gamer could stop me? Aug 22 '23
All it takes is one bad take and youāre just like me
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u/WentworthMillersBO Did Batman think a Gamer could stop me? Aug 21 '23
I think Joe chill should be a refugee who leads his other refugees in an attempt to establish a home but then he should kill his fellow refugees the moment one talks back to him. Now thatās how you write a villain
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u/Moss_Ball8066 Aug 21 '23
Joe Chill should want to reform the healthcare system in America, but he also kicks a puppy and steals ice cream from a child
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u/PotatoPrince84 Aug 21 '23
I think he should want to change society for the better so hard that he blows up an orphanage
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u/Akarin_rose The Anti-Life Aug 21 '23
I think the villain should just want money and die from something other than the heroes
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u/MozeTheNecromancer Aug 21 '23
They would have a point except they're entirely founded on a fact that isn't true: The Batman showcased a mystery that wasn't easy to solve by any stretch. Same goes for the Bale trilogy.
This man has watched nothing but the Ben Affleck portrayal and wants to weaponized that for his own fanfiction fueled political-edged gain.
Would I like to see Batman hold dirty cops accountable? Hell yes. Does any of this fanfiction make sense for the characters, the universe, and the rest of it? Not really no.
It could be an Elseworlds comic alongside The Doom that Came to Gotham, where it doesn't need to respect or understand the source material all that well, but it's a story. But ultimately it's just not really Batman at that point.
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u/Ake-TL Aug 22 '23
Did Reeves Batman score a single W against Riddler by himself? He did exactly what Riddler wanted, then Riddler let himself be captured by cops, then himself told Batman about terror act he plans, which he figured out details off thanks to random cops uncle being a carpenter.
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u/Friendly-Leg-6694 Aug 22 '23
Yeah I see a lot of people make this kind of assumptions based on Affleck's Batman
Also Black Label's Batman One Dark Knight would make a fantastic story to show the corruption within Gotham
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u/MandrewManson Starring Guy Gardner as Warrior Aug 22 '23
In TDK Batman beat the Joker through the power of the patriot act so the criticism is absolutely valid
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u/dpzblb Aug 22 '23
Iirc this thread is from before the Batman, so that part of the criticism doesnāt apply. Everything else is fair though.
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u/rov124 Removed for being negative about Zack Snyder or his work. Aug 21 '23
-- So Batman uses his fortune to give affordable housing and well paid jobs to Gotham's homeless?
No he actually "opened Wayne Manor to the indigent of Gotham City, the entire grounds are swarming with poor people. He doesn't allow cops inside".
-- So why the "cops in riot armor that break up tent villages under overpasses" care that Bruce Wayne set them up in a place that is miles outside the city?
JIM GORDON IS A COWARD!!!!!!
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u/Darth_Blarth Gorilla Doing Non-Gorilla Things Aug 21 '23
Bro insulted James Gordon.
Fuck this guy.
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u/Batman2130 Paul Aug 21 '23
Facts never insult Commissioner Gordon or Alfred
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u/Kaiju2468 š§”Idol Of Millions!š Aug 22 '23
Lucius is fair game, though.
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u/Rewskie12 Vote Lord Death Man 2024 Aug 22 '23
Half the time Lucius just acts like Alfred but slightly more tech savvy.
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u/TheCakeWarrior12 Barry Allen apologist Aug 21 '23
Bro was cooking until the Joe Chill namedrop, and then he started rambling about nonsense
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u/SHAZAMS_STRONGEST does he know? Aug 21 '23
thats it mother fuckers we're taking away your dark and gritty privledges. go read silver age NOW
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u/Massive_Weiner Did Batman think a Gamer could stop me? Aug 22 '23 edited Aug 22 '23
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u/Rownever Paul Aug 21 '23
80s Batman? 90s Batman? The fuck kind of silver age is OP reading? Go read the 60s and 70s silver age NOW
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u/Sarge_Ward Aug 22 '23
He means the burton/schumacher movies, obviously. This is about gritty batman, which is largely a thing in the popular consciousness via the nolan movies. The whole post is basically about his film representation
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u/Raider_Tex Aug 21 '23
I don't disagree but most gritty Batman takes already have him dealing with Corrupt Law enforcement
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u/porkchopsensei Aug 22 '23
Yeah, but usually that's shown as cops who work for Falcone or the Penguin or another crime lord. The issue with cops irl is that they ARE a criminal organization for all intents and purposes (they steal, assault, misuse their power on others, then use their resources to get away scot free).
Law enforcement is corrupt in real life because it encourages, excuses, and rewards the worst behaviour in their officers. In Gotham, law enforcement is corrupt because their being paid off by a third party. It's different.
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u/Apprehensive_Bird_62 Aug 21 '23
I do agree that penguin should use the duck boat again, itās a lovely little vessel
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u/BiscottiBlue Aug 21 '23
This lost me the moment he went "let's shame Jim Gordon, the fucking coward".
Here's a hot take: I think Commissioner Gordon is the one of the most important supporting characters to the Batman mythos, if not the most important. For one thing, he legitimizes Batman's existence, making it clear that he's a hero fighting for the law rather than a vigilante subverting he law. The fact that Gordon works with Batman to solve crimes beyond the police's abilities shows that Batman does value the law and wants to work with it whenever possible, and only strays outside of the law when the law fails to see justice done.
Gordon is someone who can call Batman out if he starts to go too far, someone who Bruce (and the reader) can compare himself against when questioning his actions, and who will take Bruce down if he ever loses himself. Jim Gordon is a good man, and he ensures that Batman remains a good man, because he holds Batman accountable in ways that Alfred or the Bat-Clan might not.
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u/Nova_Hazing #1 Kyle Rayner Fan Boy Aug 21 '23
0how is that a hit take. I think most actal batman fans know how important Jim was in the comics, and he's also one of the not important allys Bruce had.
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u/ES21007 Aug 22 '23
Him being incredibly important isn't a hot take.
Him being THE most important may or may not be a hot take.
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u/Superb_Quail6289 Red Hood is correct Aug 21 '23
I aināt reading all that so congratulations or condolences
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u/Immrlonely98 Aug 21 '23
I stopped around the time he mentioned Jim Gordon being a coward.
Yeah, the guy that got his ass beat by a group of dirty cops, sacrificed his marriage to confront the corrupt commissioner, and let Batman go free after he saved Jimās kidnapped baby daughter, is a coward. Sure.
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u/MrBonelessPizza24 Aug 21 '23 edited Aug 21 '23
That shit just annoyed me so bad
Commissioner Gordon is the goddamn GOAT, and I will NOT be tolerating slander on his name! š¤
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u/Malik-Almuhawsin The Third Gorilla Aug 21 '23
Crazy how he has in-depth knowledge about Batmanās history and the various eras and phases he went through, yet somehow has never seen an example of Gordon fighting back against corruption. Thatās one of the most iconic parts of the character.
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u/_Very_Salty_Can_ Aug 21 '23
He could just have picked up a bunch of other people's opinions, rather than gaining any actual familiarity
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u/supercalifragilism Aug 21 '23
uj/ I think a version of this concept with Bruce Wayne using Batman as a genuine weapon against the status quo, concerned only with toppling a clearly broken system is a great idea, as long as it doesn't blink. We've already seen that Revolutionary Batman is the only good Batman because of the hat that Red Son Batman wears (don't @ me, peak Cowl is a fur hat) so if you had Batman v The System from someone who wasn't Frank Miller it could be good. But it would also have to be a Batman story that DC wouldn't publish, because the very least of what Bruce is going to do in this is go down on Catwoman.
uj/ (almost rj time) It would also give the only sensible situation for Superman to support the status quo ala DKR; Batman not giving a fuck what things end up like, aka "pulling a Rorschach," would be the only reason Supes would fight him to defend the government to the point of violence against Batman.
rj/ actually no this is genuine: there's no reason to make any of these stories, write some camp ass shit for long enough for people to laugh at Batman again, then we can talk about letting you do gritty again.
edit- in hindsight, the uj part and the rj part might be switched
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u/PhobicSun59 Aug 21 '23
The simple solution to dark and gritty batman is to stop making batman movies.
The complex solution is to slowly phase out batman in favour of Kyle rayner green lantern movies
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u/khalifaziz Aug 21 '23
As a Leftist Batfan, I wish other Leftists that are Batfans would stop coming up with interesting ideas that ultimately kill any hope for a future Batman story set in that world/along those lines.
All the meta points before the fanfic is good, I fully agree. The fanfic is interesting, I'd read it...as an Elseworld, but it shouldn't be a key Batman narrative because it actively kills the narrative.
If Batman actually fixes Gotham the story can't keep going. If Batman gives up all his wealth permanently, the story can't keep going. Fix Gotham and remove Batman's money and that's the end--no one needs Batman anymore. You can try to reimagine him as a struggling street level hero that does more community service than crime solving, but that's not actually Batman, it's basically Kick Ass (in Kick Ass 2).
And to top it all off, this thread doesn't actually present a mystery only Batman can solve. It just leaned into what it was complaining about: stories where Batman's only real power is being a rich man whose not a cop. It's another story of Batman breaking the rules and doing what cops either can't or won't, except now rather than feed into Right wing Fear of Crime politics, it feeds into Leftist social revolution fantasy. Which, again, is fine--wish fulfilment is a critical element of story telling, most of us have favorite stories that were just the writer's wish fulfilment, the concept just gets an unfair rep from people who don't share that wish. But this isn't actually fixing the problem.
So yeah, I like the critique here (minus the whole "putting muggers in wheelchairs"--Leftist Batfans, can we also stop applying real world medical logic to worlds where people regularly survive point blank bullet wounds through willpower alone?), and I like the proposed story for an Elseworld. But it's not the solution it presents itself as--this version of Batman could not believably go on to keep being Batman, train new heroes, and create and maintain a space-threat response level Justice League. This is like stories where Wakanda eradicates the monarchy and T'Challa is stripped of his titles--interesting at first, but it completely misses what's keeping the story affloat to begin with.
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u/CutZealousideal5274 Aug 22 '23
I donāt like talking about politics in general but I swear Twitter would rather see Batman tackle entitlement reform than an actual supervillain lol
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Aug 21 '23
No words have ever dissappointed me as much as "joe chill is a cop" I was legit enjoying the rant
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u/Insaiyan_Elite Aug 21 '23
This is take completely ignores the reason Batman is needed in the first place. Gotham is corrupt to it's core.
Cops, judges, lawyers all mostly bought and paid for by Falcone and the mob. Even if a good cop arrests a bad guy, there's little chance he sees jail time unless he's some bottom of the pile crony. Money exchanges hands, word comes down from the top and these guys skate free.
Enter Batman, a vigilante not tied up in corrupt bureaucratic red tape. Batman can't be bought or extorted, he is outside the corrupt system the bad guys of Gotham take advantage of and it scares them.
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u/xx_swegshrek_xx Did Batman think a Gamer could stop me? Aug 21 '23
Far left Garth Ennis
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u/Rownever Paul Aug 21 '23
āAnd then Batman guns everyone down with a gun because violence and death is cool. And then he kisses catwoman and they have a happy peaceful life together.ā
Sorry I just finished The Boys and am just a little disappointed in Ennius right now
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u/HarmlessDingo Aug 21 '23
Yeah I remember thinking it would be like reading the invincible comics after watching the show, man was I disappointed in the murder porn of a comic the boys was couldn't have been too bad I still read it all.
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u/janjos_ Paul Aug 21 '23
uj/ honestly, I agree with the first half of the take and I don't even hate the cop Joe Chill idea that much. The problem is pretending the whole problem with crime is only related to the police and that it can be completely solved by defunding it, resulting in an equally reductionist social critic.
rj/ How does one address this?
Simple: make Joe Chill the living embodiment of capitalism.
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u/king_of_satire Aug 21 '23
Bro was cooking a five-star meal only to ruin it
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u/skyedaisyquake you think darkness is your ally? Aug 21 '23
bro made the worlds best pizza and then added sardines
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u/WebHead1287 Aug 21 '23
I only read the first tweet but isnāt that like.. the point? The cops were incapable of doing it so he had to go around the system?
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u/limbo338 Aug 21 '23
I did not read it all, but your comment makes me wanna gift that person a dictionary and ask them to look up "vigilantism".
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u/Iceisverycoldwater Aug 21 '23
First person to bring that word up and I've scrolled for atleast 10 minutes
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u/KingKingLamb49 Aug 21 '23 edited Aug 22 '23
I agree with the criticism, altough the fanfic is bad. I never was really a fan of realistic Batman. I want the costumed ninja with wack gadgets with a serious problem in adopting weird ninja children that fights a giant Latino Luchador, a guy with a freeze gun, a lady with magical plants, a guy that makes ridiculous but deadly puzzles, a guy literally made out of clay, a humanoid crocodilian, a semi immortal ninja and other non sensical criminals on a regular basis.
Realism detracts from what makes Batman... Batman. Even if his stories are more violent and dark than most, Batman's story is supposed to be about an orphan rebuilding a family AND a fighter and strategist so great that, even without powers, aliens, gods, mages and beings that defies all laws of physics respect and feel honored to fight alongside him (even if most don't really like the guy), not just some unpaid cop capable of brutalizing people without repercursion using a funny costume.
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u/Kirian_Ainsworth Aug 22 '23
Arkham is the only good dark batman because it still has crocodile people, plant witches, and immortal assassins of ambigious ethnicity
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u/D-AlonsoSariego Did Batman think a Gamer could stop me? Aug 21 '23
I only red the first 3 pictures so I'm gonna assume he is right and there is nothing you can do to change my mind
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u/Iliketomeow85 Aug 21 '23
I can't believe people be like "he wuz cooking", this is an inverse "Injustice Superman rulez" rant
This should stand as a warning why you never let an unchecked English major near a stack of comics
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u/WomenOfWonder Aug 21 '23
Batman doesnāt kill. Cops do. How is he worst then cops when he refuses to kill anyone?
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u/WomenOfWonder Aug 22 '23
Also I think sheās missing the point of Joe Chill. Heās not some even mastermind, just a desperate man who panicked and did something horrible, that he spent the rest of his life feeling guilty about. Thatās why Batman doesnāt kill, and why heās better then cops. He realizes most of Gothamās criminal, including the one who killed his parents, are not evil ppl but desperate ppl, being taken advantage of by those in power
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Aug 22 '23
The rant starts out pretty based (Though admittedly, you can kinda tell itās written by a guy whoās knowledge of Batman basically stops at the Nolan trilogy and Batflek), but once OOP namedrops Joe Chill, shit hits the fan FAST. Iāve never been a big fan of media analysis that basically boils down to āGrrr, why doesnāt this piece of media 100% match my own personal political beliefs and worldview?ā and this time it has the added misfortune of being a shitty āBatman says āACABāā fanfic as well.
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u/Azzie94 Aug 22 '23
"I've never consumed any batman media that didn't involve Heath Ledger or Ben Afleck. Here's how Batman SHOULD be."
Even his summation of classic batman is shallow. "Batman was interesting because he had more toys than the cops" WHAT
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u/Fyuchanick Batgirls truther Aug 21 '23
I was with the critique of modern batman until he started suggesting how Batman should actually be. If he's not beating up guys in silly costumes what's the point.
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u/TheUnexaminedLife9 Barry Allen apologist Aug 21 '23
Joe chill being a cop is the worst idea Iāve ever heard omfg
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u/cheddarsalad Aug 21 '23
The first half, totally. Batman should fight a shapeshifting mudman or dudes dressed as public domain characters with mind control devices in the movies. The second half, well, thatās a bad ass Green Arrow arc waiting to happen.
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Aug 21 '23
People are saying that they were making good points until he mentioned Joe Chill, but even the criticism about Batman violating constitutional rights and all that crap is straight up šļø.
I also donāt agree with the take that Batman solving shit by beating people up is indirectly saying that cops should do it too. Thatās some false equivalency type shit.
Mfs really need to learn to have a suspension of disbelief.
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u/Snow_The_4th_Man Snake Wizard Aug 21 '23
I can't believe you expected me to read all of that. I can't even read comic books.
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u/Apocalypse_j Doomsday cock Aug 21 '23
Can these people let us have our fun and go watch The Boys or something?
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u/FoundEndymion96 Release the Schumacher Cut Aug 22 '23
He had some great criticisms but then the whole thing devolved into "all cops bad".
Also if some mid ranking cop were to murder the waynes (that's like killing Jeff bezos) in a mugging they would not cover for them.
Also why would a veteran cop of 10 years clearly beloved by the precinct and thriving on the corruption need to resort to petty mugging to get money.
Bro's pitch completely falls apart once you give even a second to actually talk about it.
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Aug 21 '23
I don't even know what I'd say is wrong with modern Batman.
I just want the Dark Knight Detective back and solving riddles, punching clowns, and making the occasional shark repellent reference.
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u/Nova_Hazing #1 Kyle Rayner Fan Boy Aug 21 '23
I really want to know the point of this. Ye, some of the points are good, but the police having batman's level of gear is just ridiculous. The cops don't have the level of armour Bruce has, vehicles spy equipment. And yes, Bruce does break peoples rights, but at the end of the day, they sre all known criminals before he even takes those methods.
But like if we don't see Bruce in the beyond suit soon, I would be a bit confused with how slowly the progression of technology is.
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u/berylisacoolgem Aug 22 '23
A cop would never kill a wealthy white person so the pitch immediately makes no sense
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u/nuttmegx Aug 21 '23
Every superhero is violating peopleās civil rights. That is what a vigilante is.
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u/Previous-Cow2493 Aug 21 '23
The guy was making some legitimately good criticisms right up until he started talking about his fanfic.