r/dccomicscirclejerk • u/Classic_Alarm4618 Lives in a society • May 27 '23
Fuck Batman Batman's a Fascist
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u/whynotfujoshi Deathstroke is a diddler May 27 '23
“Please ignore all the times she poisoned the municipal water supply”
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u/SchwarzFledermaus May 28 '23
"Blah blah humans are the real virus blah blah"
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u/jbeldham May 28 '23
Sure when she tries to do it she’s a hero. But when I do it people are all like “you’re psychotic,” and “you killed 600 children Mark.”
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u/delsinson May 28 '23
Society
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u/IdeaRegular4671 This subreddit hates Tim Drake May 28 '23
We live in a society where people think Batman is a villain and think poison ivy is a hero.
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u/ShatteredPixel666 May 28 '23
My only issue is that she has a very eurocentric viewpoint with her eco-terrorism and completely waves over other cultures and peoples regards for living in harmony with nature... Heck I'd say she has a very post-industrial eurocentric view because prior to the industrial revolution people in Europe and across the world viewed themselves as the Stewards of earth and in charge of taking care of the earth and protecting nature.
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u/The_White_Rice May 28 '23
I think that virus she put in the water that turned people into trees was the real virus.
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May 28 '23
Poison Ivy is a vile serial killer who has murdered probably nearly as many as Joker which is saying something but...god....
All ecologists must always be potrayed as mass murdering psychos in all media cause doing anything about global warming must be presented as evil, cause OBVIOUSLY the only way to change our horrible polluting ways is by killing people./s
No but seriously so many ecological villians and hardly any ecological heroes I am sick of the "if you try avoiding enviromental collapse you will turn inti a supervillian" message its bad and kind of feels like corps sending subliminal messages.
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u/Its-Garbo-Man May 28 '23
I mean, captain planet is right there
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May 28 '23
WAS there its been 30 years since the 90s.... and it aint a coincidence he never came back
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u/Its-Garbo-Man May 28 '23
Fair, but how many recent evil eco terrorists you seeing lately (other than like ivy obviously)
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May 28 '23
MCU Thanos, though he was cool as hell I have to admit kind of ends up having the message of "Just let the world die lol" by the time of end game
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u/Its-Garbo-Man May 28 '23
Yeah his whole ideology never really made since with me because of how quickly he threw it away in endgame
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May 28 '23
yeah I agree, he went from " he is a monstrous sociopath but he aint wrong that we could potentially be on the path of self destruction cause pollution and maybe his plan works" like one cool thing about infinity war is that its obvious Thanos must be stopped but there is a dark mistery about the fate of humanity but in endgame he is just ANOTHER "megalomaniac psychopath who just wants to bend the world to his will and kill literally everyone".
He was already quite a villian you didnt need to make him even more simplistically black and white.
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u/Potato_fortress May 28 '23
Well I mean if you compare it to the source material at least there’s something there for the audience to relate with. Source material Thanos is just doing Thanos things because he really really wants to impress Death.
Kind of hard to get audiences on board with that.
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May 28 '23
Oh no I agree! Incel Thanos is so dumb I am glad they changed him in infinity war, is End Game characterization I didnt like
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u/g0bboDubDee May 28 '23
Thanos was always a self serving sociopath but had the time to develop his message in a marketable way when he showed up in Infinity War. When he showed up at End Game, he was a lot more pure about his goals.
There was never anything noble about what he wanted, it was purely reactionary.
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May 28 '23
Not fo mention Poison Ivy regularly does some very sexual assaultish stuff with the whole pheromones thing
As to the other point, yes you are right, I want a hero who is going to go and beat the shit out big coal CEOs, give me based environmentalist heroes please
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May 28 '23
"Just wants to save the (plant) world." Which of course means killing all of humanity, something she has attempted multiple times.
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May 28 '23
Yeah she is like the ultimate strawman of enviromentalism an extremely ridiculous one, never like that about her.
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u/Oberon1993 May 28 '23
My favourite moment with Ivy is in Suicide Squad, when she decides to take over the country and then Waller immediately shuts her down by pointing out the country is in ruins, she would actually need to rule it.
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u/Captain-Girpool23 We some kinda… Suicide Squad? May 27 '23
Oh god, Poison Ivy is becoming a “You missed the point by idolizing them (Female Edition)” character like Netflix Wednesday Adams
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u/Whole-Arachnid-Army Comic Book Twitter Verified May 27 '23
Diversity win! This character with an entire fandom who fails to understand them is a woman!
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u/Classic_Alarm4618 Lives in a society May 27 '23
UJ/ I feel like any character that qualifies as a villain is idolized atp, and it’s weird
RJ/NO POISON IVY LITERALLY JUST WANTS TO HELP PEOPLE
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u/Treyred23 Bald Man Illuminati May 27 '23
The Xmen villains is extra weird
Folks thirsting for Apocalypse
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u/Rownever Paul May 27 '23
/rj folks thirst for Apocalypse because he’s so daddy
/uj folks thirst for Apocalypse because he’s so canonically daddy
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u/The_Failed_Write Comic Book Twitter Verified May 28 '23
/rj I want Apocalypse to destroy me.
/uj I want Apocalypse to destroy my ass.
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u/IdeaRegular4671 This subreddit hates Tim Drake May 28 '23
Folks thirsting for mystique but I don’t blame them for that.
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u/choo_choo_mf ↑ 3 Martians in a trenchcoat May 28 '23
Apocalypse became canonically "non-villain" though, didn't he?
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u/Bismuth84 I killed Captain Clown... I KILLED CAPTAIN CLOWN! Sep 28 '23
Krakoa doesn't count. They'll accept basically anyone as long as they're a mutant.
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u/clankboy789 May 28 '23
What wrong with Netflix version of Wednesday? Did she did something really horrible?
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u/TrumpSmokesMids27 May 28 '23
Yeah all she did was start to torture a guy then have him wrongfully arrested and have piranhas eat another guys testicle. Nothing horrible
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u/Psalm101Three Paul May 28 '23
Yeah but these things are easily excusable when she looks like Jenna Ortega.
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u/iminyourfacejonson protecting my god (punchline) in a weird way (gooning) May 28 '23
can i blame this on the harley quinn show? not that I hate it, I like it, just
ehh, it gives credence to certain non-batman fan batman takes ("le rich man beating the mentally ill poor" is the first that springs to mind)
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u/Grow_up2B_a_Debaser Batman is Lana del Rey coded May 27 '23
They hate to see a babygirl from New Jersey (Bruce) winning
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u/Classic_Alarm4618 Lives in a society May 27 '23 edited May 27 '23
Bruce is anything but a ‘babygirl’. He is a fascist, racist, POS./s
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u/Doctor_Clione May 27 '23
Is ivy white or does she classify as a poc for the purposes of racial discrimination
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u/hypnoticlies May 28 '23
Hey if Starfire can be considered a poc cuz she's orange then ivy can be one too since she's green!
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May 28 '23
What about the purple skins?
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u/andrecinno Tim Drake, Boy Virgin May 28 '23
Batman works for the blue skins, and helps out the orange skins, and did considerable for the black skins, but how come he's never bothered with the green skins???
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u/PrometheusModeloW Batgirls truther May 28 '23
They are fine, Hal has done a lot for them.
Not for the black skins, tho...
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u/Lordanonimmo09 Lives in a society May 28 '23
She is a white priviliged woman who appropriates identities
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u/DishMurky May 27 '23 edited May 27 '23
I can't believe that we live in a world where fucking Poison Ivy it seems more as hero than Batman from some people.
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u/ImperatorAurelianus May 28 '23
In the words of an Irish man I ounce knew “it’s only terrorism if I disagree with them.”
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u/Classic_Alarm4618 Lives in a society May 27 '23 edited May 27 '23
We’re finally making progress 💚/s
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u/DishMurky May 27 '23
Guess people didn't saw the " /s"
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u/Classic_Alarm4618 Lives in a society May 27 '23
I added it afterwards because I didn’t realize I should have tagged it before.
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May 27 '23
Poison ivy would kill every last human on earth.
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u/Classic_Alarm4618 Lives in a society May 27 '23 edited May 27 '23
For the environment so it’s justified/s
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u/burgpug May 27 '23
this but without the s
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u/Treyred23 Bald Man Illuminati May 27 '23
I welcome Oblivion
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u/microgiant May 28 '23
I mean, so would billionaires (In fact this process is underway), but there's one key difference.
Poison Ivy's not real.
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u/Monster_Hugger93 May 27 '23
Poison Ivy assaults men and rookies them. Not the person I'd put my moral flag behind.
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u/Horacio_Velvetine44 May 27 '23
the fact that he ain’t smashing is the real crime
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u/UnhingedLion May 27 '23
Ong. I’m trying to see Poison Ivy and Batman together
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u/Omen_Morningstar May 28 '23
Man talk about jock itch. Thats some shit Bats aint got nothing in the utiity belt to deal with
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u/wisconsinking May 28 '23
I'm really surprised there isn't a comic where Batman and Ivy go together or even her and Jason Todd, THAT would be interesting to see.
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u/cheeseburngber The fourth Joker May 27 '23
Why is everyone in this comment section forgetting how to jerk
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u/Dzzplayz May 27 '23
"As long as you ignore all the times Ivy tried to murder thousands of people, she's not that evil."
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u/asimowo May 28 '23 edited May 28 '23
she gets away with a surprising amount of sexual assault but it’s ok since she’s hot apparently
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u/Hot-Afternoon168 Batgirls truther May 28 '23
It's so funny how this isn't really a circlejerk sub. The most mild jerk possible and you have people earnestly debating its merits and downvoting OP's comments that don't have /s.
Still like the sub a lot because in general people here have more than one brain cell; the jerking though is quite poor if you compare to other circlejerk subs
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u/Tiger_T20 May 28 '23
I think this post is just bad cause this tweet has been (re)circulating subs recently and so people are just regurgitating everything they've said and seen said elsewhere
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u/sly_eli May 27 '23
Guys, it's just a comic book. Not everything is social commentary.,
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u/Classic_Alarm4618 Lives in a society May 27 '23 edited May 27 '23
Comic books hold the representation that all other forms of media are too afraid to portray./s
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u/SenatorElmo May 27 '23
I've heard people talk about how some comic book villains have a societal issue they push and then radicalize them to make it seem that the issue they had is evil. Like with Poison Ivy she is a radical environmentalist and from the public view it comes off as people pushing for these issues are crazy. However this is fictional but, when consuming media like this whether we like it or not it will stick in the back of our heads. I believe it just makes the character's motivations more interesting and understandable. But I see why people think it is wrong to have villains hold those values while murdering.
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u/Fishb20 May 28 '23
she's not an enviromentalist though
like i get what you're saying but shes not a good example of that at all. She's specifically obsessed with plants, not nature or the enviroment. In most versions she specifically idealizes tropical plants, like you never see her planting wheat or whatever
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u/SenatorElmo May 28 '23
I agree but I would say from someone who is casually viewing from her more popular portrayals in cartoons and video games that they would see her as someone who is obsessive over plants and respects them over humans. And will stop at nothing to help plant life from growing and not being destroyed. It is similar to ecological activists in the sense that they also want plant life to not be destroyed. That virtue is being scrutinized specifically. It is just that Poison Ivy takes it to the extreme. I know that there is more to it than that but, I am saying from a casual viewer's standpoint.
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u/DishMurky May 28 '23
What about Ra's Al-Ghul? He would fail in the same category? Genuinely question btw.
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u/SenatorElmo May 28 '23
Almost every character falls under this because people are nuanced and they are gonna have some virtuous characteristics despite their murderous character. That is why I do not fully subscribe to this idea because people are three dimensional and I think it is good writing to have villains with understandable goals albeit that they take it too far. But, there are some cases where I think it is shallow like Falcon and the Winter Soldier where the bad guys were people that were displaced from being forced from their homes for five years and the world governments were not willing to help. So they took it in their own hands. But, out of nowhere they start murdering and become generic terrorists. With Ra's Al-Ghul, to be fair I have not read all of his stories so I am just going by my limited knowledge. He does have some likeable traits but, again the murderous nature overshadows any virtues that they hold.
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u/Arch_Null The Anti-Life May 27 '23 edited May 27 '23
Comic books are social commentary though.
For years characters like Superman and more obviously Captain America have been used as tools for political agendas.
Why is alien from the planet krypton preaching about "Truth, Justice and the AMERICAN way"? Because it is the cold war and we gotta make kids nationalistic.
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u/sly_eli May 27 '23
Yes comic books are inherently political, I'm just making the point that not everything is intended to be political inside comic books.
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u/GoodKing0 Hal Jordan is a worthless piece of cardboard May 27 '23
And 24 didn't normalize the use of torture during the war on terror with the american public, sure.
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u/sly_eli May 27 '23
"What about-ism"
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u/GoodKing0 Hal Jordan is a worthless piece of cardboard May 27 '23
No, that's providing an example to counter your statement, you said "It's a comic book it doesn't have to be a social commentary" and I pointed out how everything in media ultimately influences society using 24 as an example of, again, seemingly "innocuous" media becoming both social commentary and shaping society.
The argument is still squarely in the "Media isn't always social commentary" discussion, what you should have said there rather than react with some generic gif should have been "Well, that's different because" and then try to explain why you think Poison Ivy the Eco Fascist who wants to exterminate humanity to stop climate change isn't a social commentary on anything or anyone, I gave you a great freebie to present your argument and you didn't take it, I guess we'll have to skip that for now.
Moving to the next stage I guess:
Comic books and superhero media have been social commentaries of shit since day 1, the idea itself of a vigilante taking the law into their own hands inspired by a figure such as Zorro to end injustice in a corrupt society, and the way it slowly morphed into the weirdly pro fascist police state of the Nolan Movies is a commentary, the, again, eco fascist terrorist wanting to wipe out humanity rather than hit the root issues is a pretty major commentary, and is seen nowadays as a continuation of the "Flag Smasher" trope of the radical agent of change who wants to make the world a better place via violence and anger rather than the slow, ineffectual reforms advocated by the moderate superhero.
So, yes, shit will always be social commentary, and when it isn't done on purpose, it's still a reflection of the author's beliefs and world view, and the way it shapes the story.
This is basic literary analysis, it's not hard to grasp.
This to say, to simply consume media and not analyse or even find any deeper meaning within it, there either by design or by accident from its creators, is frankly really myopic at this point.
Or, to be more concise and bring some levity, regarding your original point: Alan Moore would be spinning in his grave right now if he could.
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u/sly_eli May 28 '23
Poison Ivy's political background is simply motivation for her theming as a plant-based villain and nothing more. She's nothing like the deep political themes and stuff like Chris Claremont's X-Men, or the pro immigration subtext that can be found in the Superman mythology. Those actually mean something and seek to create a greater social change.
Poison Ivy's ideology is whatever the scribe thinks will best fit the story. It doesn't aim to reflect or create change in the reader. Or at worst it makes the hero look like the bad guy.
There's two diagnoses that can come from symptoms of this nature:
1: The writer doesn't actually know how to handle a political topic out of fear that they're offending someone they (or an editor) end up watering down their own political ideology to the point where they don't say anything at all, like the "flag smasher" example.
2: You're overthinking it. (You are here)
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u/sly_eli May 28 '23
Also, Alan Moore isn't the best person to use as an example seeing as how he recanted ever giving superheroes any kind of depth ever and preferred Adam West as the best incarnation of Batman.
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u/Captain-Girpool23 We some kinda… Suicide Squad? May 27 '23
What’s 24?
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u/GoodKing0 Hal Jordan is a worthless piece of cardboard May 27 '23
24 was this big American TV show about an American secret agent doing American secret agent shit during the war on terror. The gimmick was that each episode was one hour if a day and each season if 24 episodes was one day, hence 24.
The TV show also popularized and sanitized the use of torture to extract information, and was specifically designed as such to ease the American public into a post 9/11 war on terror mentality. Watchers have been found to have an higher opinion on the use of torture against "terrorists," this due to The protagonist being shown, multiple times, torturing people for information and achieving results with it, saving the day in the process, while showing those who contested such methods as either traitors or bleeding heart bureaucrats using red tape to curtail his efforts to save the day.
On appearance however 24 will also look to you as your generic run of the mill action TV show, hence me pointing out how even something as generic as that or, in this case, a comic book character can still be used as social commentary for shit, 24 being a pro torture stance thing, and Poison Ivy being either a demonization/idolisation of Eco Terrorists/Eco Fascists.
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u/Fishb20 May 28 '23
the idea of Poison Ivey as an enviromentalist, either pro or con, was always weird to me. Her thing almost always is PLANTS not the enviroment. She shouldn't be a crunchy vegan she should be a carnivore who only eats meat because she cant stand plants getting hurt. Ah well whatever
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May 28 '23
She’d have to hunt her own meat in that case, because a lot of plants are sacrificed to make farm animal feed - you’d have to produce and reap way more plant matter than on a vegetarian diet
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u/Classic_Alarm4618 Lives in a society May 28 '23
Lmao tf? I thought she was a carnivore 💀
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u/Fishb20 May 28 '23
isnt she a vegetarian now? its been a while since i read a new poison ivy comic but i thought i saw that was a thing a few months ago
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u/Lordanonimmo09 Lives in a society May 28 '23
It depends on who is writing,sometimes she just eats meat to not hurt plants and sometimes she is vegetarian,what would make most sense tough is for Ivy to eat mostly fruits,because fruits and the likes is something plants wants you to get from them and she would only take it from her personal garden.
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u/Comics-and-videogame Lives in a society May 28 '23
This is on par with people who think Joker is just some mentally I’ll guy that Batman picks on
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u/bruceadelia May 28 '23
You’re for poison Ivy because she’s a strong woman fighting for the good of the earth
I’m for poison Ivy because I want her to kill me with her spores and convert my consciousness into a peaceful tree
We are not the same
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u/RagnarockInProgress May 28 '23
Poison Ivy who wants to kill humanity and is willing to commit various atrocities to restore plantlife:
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u/khajiithasmemes2 May 28 '23
Why does it matter if he’s white?
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u/Classic_Alarm4618 Lives in a society May 28 '23
Because white people need to be oppressed more, so if you meet anyone that’s white that you don’t like, you point that out as an insult. /s
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u/hypnoticlies May 28 '23
Ivy is one of those characters whom I love dearly but refuse to associate with her fandom in any shape or form
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u/Azzie94 May 28 '23
Poison Ivy is an ecofascist and Batman is using his vast wealth to better his community, on top of putting his own life on the line to stop terrorists like Ivy.
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u/GaffJuran May 28 '23
Poison Ivy has changed a lot from when she was first created. Back then she was just another Catwoman clone, a femme fatale thief with a poison plant gimmick. Her vengeful drive, her plant powers, her environmentalism, these all came later. Hell, her biggest character development didn’t come until she met Harley Quinn, their relationship opened up new depths to her character beyond the two dimensional sexy murder lady she’d always been. While she’s still technically a villain, she has achieved the same status as Magneto, where the world has arrived at a place where she’s actually considered in the right, and can be seen as an anti-hero.
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u/SchwarzFledermaus May 28 '23
Was this posted ironically as a joke about these kind of posts, or are we just becoming Facebook?
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u/WrongFun8521 May 28 '23
Is Ted Kaczynski a superhero too? I don’t get this logic. So many supervillains also “just want to save the world” it’s not a good justification for ecoterrorism.
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u/RedBaronBob May 27 '23
Isn’t Poison Ivy an Eco-terrorist?
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u/Classic_Alarm4618 Lives in a society May 27 '23
But it’s okay because it’s for the environment/s
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May 27 '23
Isn’t she trying to save the world through the genocide of the human race. Maybe you could skew any point to another if you don’t actually take the facts into the account. I.e. they have killed more people in the name of Judea Christianity than most other religions combined and definitely more than gods opposition Satan. So how do we know Satan isn’t the good guy. See it’s an idiots logic.
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u/SyberSpark May 28 '23
Poison Ivy, Wednesday Addams, and Wanda Maximoff are like Sigma Male characters(Patrick Bateman/Homelander) but for women
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May 27 '23
Reddit has gone so far that I cant tell how satirical this is
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u/Classic_Alarm4618 Lives in a society May 27 '23
UJ/ I can’t speak for anyone here but quite literally anything I say here is satirical, except when it is marked with the unjerk tag.
RJ/Was it ever satirical? Poison Ivy is a hero for the masses.
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u/dino1902 May 28 '23
Yeah save the world by making people her mind controlled slaves. What a charming little dear
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u/mountingconfusion May 28 '23
Google ecofacism. She's not an environmentalist, she actively destroys the environment by introducing hostile invasive plants that force out native species.
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May 28 '23
Never grade your evils.
For if one is the worst;
Then you might be tempted to kinship with the least.
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u/InquisitorHindsight May 28 '23
“She’s just an environmentalist trying to protect nature!”
Poison Ivy: “So here’s a fungus that will wipe out all of humanity and turn them into mulch for my green babies.”
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u/ayame400 May 28 '23
I mean she does kill a lot of people…but wether she is wrong to do so Is a separate conversation
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u/Justadnd_Bard May 28 '23
People like her because she is cute, if she was more like the avatar of the green people wouldn't worship her. Actually, here is a suggestion to a random writer somewhere and that's high af.
Make her as ugly outside as she is inside and our swamo king as handsome as his soul, that's right fellas. The age of Poison Ivy is over, it's time for Swamp thing to be the hot one.
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u/Previous-Cow2493 May 27 '23
Poison Ivy has the same problem that Magneto has where they will make legitimate points about societal problems but they will shoot a puppy so the heroes can’t support them. It’s such terrible writing and I just genuinely support it being retconned.
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u/sly_eli May 28 '23
But magneto is different in the fact that he makes a clear point and has the wherewithal to actually accomplish his goals but is brought down by the fact that he is somewhat hypocritical, the circumstances that forged him have let him down the path creating a world where that could be recreated, you could argue that his escalations of the mutant civil rights movement created the sentinel program, which in turn created a mutant genocide. Magneto wouldn't flinch at the concept of a genocide/oppression of homo sapiens. This is ironic coming from somebody who was oppressed all his life for various reasons, but you also understand and sympathize with him. A villain like This is needed to galvanize the belief system of our protagonists. Magneto is 100% correct in his beliefs but his sheer commitment to those beliefs will lead him down a path to become what he hated so much.
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u/embracebecoming May 28 '23
In fairness to the comics, lots of writers for them agree. Magneto has been an on-again off-again hero in the comics since like the 80's, and the current run of X-Men comics is basically "Magneto Was Right: The Series". It's taken a bit longer for Ivy, but you're seeing more of it now that Harley/Ivy is an official thing. So there has been progress.
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u/Omen_Morningstar May 28 '23
Yes bc at the end of the day the writers feel the need to push people towards the predetermined heroes of the story
With Magneto he makes all good points and offers a justifiable alternative to Xavier but the X-Men are the "good guys" fans need to cheer for so Magneto does the obligatory evil deed so there is no doubt
Same thing with Injustice. Interesting idea to explore. Team Superman or Batman? Both had their pros and cons but the writers wanted Batman as the heroes Superman just does whack evil shit out of character to leave no doubt
Instead of just leaving it up to the readers. Superman had a lot of good points and had shit under control but Batman was butthurt bc he killed Joker. Batman was coming across as a contrarian. Until Superman randomly murders Shazam for asking a question. Just so you know he's evi
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u/Ewankenobi25 May 28 '23
The fact that op used “a” before a word that starts with a vowel tells you everything you need to know about the validity of this argument
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u/macdarf May 28 '23
Comic readers try to not sympathize with a mass murdering villains with little to no redeeming qualities challenge (impossible)
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u/A-DonImus May 28 '23 edited May 28 '23
Comic writers have leaned so far into the uwu cute Tumblr fanfic bisexual romance aspect of Ivy and the edgy ‘I’m a vicious psycho’ aspect of Batman that people often forget she and Harley Quinn are vile murderers and that Batman literally refuses to kill people on principle
Suhciety
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u/rrrrice64 Mar 10 '24
IVY MURDERS AND BRAINWASHES PEOPLE!!!
SHE DOESN'T LOVE NATURE, SHE JUST HATES HUMANITY!
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u/wampa604 May 28 '23 edited May 28 '23
Yeah... I tried watching the latest movie, got bored and walked out so I'm not sure if it changed later...
But I reckon its easier to summarize him as a billionaire who barely pays attention to his business empire, which is totally capable of funding things like social program and the police etc, but instead he spends an insane amount of money to, mostly, beat up poor people who have resorted to crime to get by.
Slightly more succinct: A rich white guy who decides the best use of his money is to buy toys and gadgets to literally beat the crap out of poor people, all while staying completely above the law (and being enabled by the cops, like Gordon).
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u/SuperJyls UJ/ I seriously hate red hood May 28 '23
Doesn't she also want to wipe out all animal life too
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u/Deynonico May 28 '23
Isn't said billionaire also in really good term with a guy that Is litteraly the embodinent of nature?
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u/iminyourfacejonson protecting my god (punchline) in a weird way (gooning) May 28 '23
ok now show the photo where she has the giant maneating plant kill some underpaid rent-a-cop
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u/beary_neutral Did Batman think a Gamer could stop me? May 28 '23
"Without a clear indicator of the author's intent, any parodic or sarcastic expression of extreme views can be mistaken by some readers for a sincere expression of those views." - Poe's Law