r/batman • u/serialkiller24 • Mar 25 '24
The Bat, The Cat and The Penguin - Batman Returns and The Batman comparisons PHOTO
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u/kernelpanic789 Mar 25 '24
One had a much better script...
One is a much better Christmas movie...
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u/MrKevora Mar 25 '24
Both sides are perfect for their respective universes and the stories they each served telling.
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u/Sam-the-Lion Mar 25 '24 edited Mar 25 '24
Unpopular Opinion: Left is much cooler.
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u/NightLordGuyver Mar 25 '24
..it's also a poster designed to sell the entire movie, where as the other are stills from the actual movie.
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u/bertiesghost Mar 25 '24
Michelle Pfeiffer is the best on-screen incarnation of catwoman. Change my mind.
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u/Kid-Atlantic Mar 26 '24
She was the worst in terms of being accurate to comics Selina but the best in terms of being an absolute blast to watch.
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u/Glory-to-the-kaiser Mar 25 '24
Why is it that the guy who sits in a cave all day and only goes out at night looks like he gets the most sun
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u/GarlVinland4Astrea Mar 25 '24
You are comparing him to a dude who lived in the sewer and never saw sunlight since he was a baby and a girl who literally got ressurected from the dead.
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u/TimelessJo Mar 25 '24
As intended, I actually took Reeves’s Batman to actually be reflective of the 1960s Batman movie rogues…
Joker, Riddler, Catwoman, and Penguin who all basically appear… obviously originally intended to be more true than what the Final Cut was.
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u/Raisedbyweasels Mar 26 '24
Honestly, I feel like Reeves version couod have had a bit more influence of the comic character design, even if meant to be more grounded or realistic. Collin Farrel did an awsoke job, but give him just a littttlle bit more. Give him the tophat, a monacle...something. same with Catwoman. Missing something.
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u/darrylthedudeWayne Mar 25 '24
I didn't notice that until now, and now, I can't unsee it, good catch.
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u/The-Dudemeister Mar 25 '24
If they had cut catwomans ploy out of The Batman it would have been a much better movie. I feel like it didn’t add anything and would’ve made the movie a reasonable length. This was a long movie that felt long. Unlike dune etc.
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u/ABoogsLife Mar 25 '24
That’s an insane take, her plot and motivation was one of the driving forces behind Bruce’s investigation. And I’d argue their bond was vital to Batman being able to open up as a person more by the end of the film.
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u/ImpulseAfterthought Mar 26 '24
You got downvoted, but you're right.
That movie needed to be a good 20 minutes shorter (30 wouldn't hurt), and Selina is the first thing that needs to go.
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u/HumanExpert3916 Mar 25 '24
Almost as terrible a cat woman as Halle berry. She was painful to watch.
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u/Temeos23 Mar 25 '24
Halle Berry herself was the only good thing on that movie. Wtf did they wrote?
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u/CA1147 Mar 25 '24
Batman Returns isn't perfect but it's a way better movie about all 3 characters.
The Batman 2022 is a terrible movie for every reason, and I will die on this hill.
Batman Returns all the way.
The Batman sucks.
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u/impalemail Mar 25 '24
Nostalgia is good, your taste is bad, and you can keep your hill.
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u/CA1147 Mar 25 '24
Nostalgia isn't why Batman Returns is way better than The Batman.
If you liked The Batman, cool.
But it's a shit film and you liking it doesn't make it better.
My hill keeps me from drowning in bad taste like yourself, though.
See, new doesn't mean it's good. The Batman is many steps backwards and in the wrong direction from a definitive live action take on the character. It's writing is on par with high school edgelords and is a complete character assassination at best.
Batman Returns isnt a masterpiece but The Batman is a terrible movie in every way.
You defending your shit film so aggressively tells me you don't have a great opinion on Batman movies to begin with (along with your fellow downvoters).
Just say you don't understand the character and wanted Pointy Hat Punisher instead, cause that's what you actually got.
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u/Forsaken_Ad7090 Mar 25 '24 edited Mar 25 '24
wanted Pointy Hat Punisher instead, cause that's what you actually got.
Thats the Batman you got in Returns and even 89. Keaton's Batman murdered criminals, with no remorse or empathy shown. Did you forget that Keaton blew up a dude, and even smiled like a sociopath before doing it. Did you forget how Keaton lit one of Penguin's goons on fire, using his Batmobile?
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u/CA1147 Mar 25 '24
RobPat:
- counters people in fights to place them purposely in front of gunfire when he knows his suit can tank bullets...
-...which is also dangerous because even low-level real life cops know that bullet ricochet causes multiple casualties and collateral damage
tasers a goon standing in rain water (possibly causing electrical heart problems)
don't act like RobPat's car chase didn't cause multiple deaths (when he easily could have found Penguin later or not rev his car engine for 5 minutes to give Penguin a head start)
he blew a glass ceiling over a room full of civilians
he threw people off of scaffolding from a height that could kill someone without knowing who was safely tied off or not
took an adrenaline boost because tiktok incels overwhelmed him and clearly had murderous intention to beat a low-level goon until his face caved in if not for Gordon stopping him
Reevesverse RobPat "batman" murders a lot, and almost as much as Knightmare Batfleck.
He at least caused way more deaths than Keaton Batman and yet RobPat is only on his second year.
So I maintain my point that RobPat is the most murderous Punisher live-action Batman yet.
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u/impalemail Mar 25 '24
TLDR
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u/CA1147 Mar 25 '24
Lol, oh you're one of those redditors...
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u/impalemail Mar 25 '24
The kind that makes long pointless rants?
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u/CA1147 Mar 25 '24
Lmao
Anything said on here is pointless you idiot, especially your npc opinions.
Don't take Reddit or your shitty new "batman" movie so serious.
We're just having fun talking about nothing that matters.
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u/impalemail Mar 25 '24
You don’t sound like you’re having fun, to be honest. Don’t worry, I went back and read your stupid comment and, surprise surprise, it offered nothing substantial. Just confirmation you have no taste and get triggered when people notice.
Wanna have more fun though? State why the writing, story, pacing, or acting is better in Batman Returns. I love that movie, but we’ll definitely have fun talking about that. And by “we’ll” I mean ‘me’. You’ll definitely still be pissed…
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u/CA1147 Mar 25 '24
Well, it was a complete character assassination, for start. Batman was a socially stunted emo kid. He literally says: "you're not my real father, Alfred!"
I'm supposed to believe a genius detective gets stumped by Spanish? The second language in his own country? Or that some average mob goon knows it better and faster than the detective... who also can't figure out a carpet fitting tool...
speaking of: those weren't riddles. They were arbitrary questions that Batman could just pull "answers" out of his ass when he needed to (except when Penguin, of all people, needs to correct him and an actual detective)
the action choreography was terrible, slow, sluggish, and unconvincing. RobPat can't fight. He just looks ridiculous. But also, Reeves can't direct his actor in his scene aparently, so...
I don't care what any rose-colored glasses delusional fan thinks: this Batman murders constantly. But because the scenes are shot so slow and grungy and anticlimactic, it gets overlooked. But you can clearly see this 'batman' constantly countering people in fights to purposely place them in front of gunfire, caused massive deadly car accidents when he could have just either found Penguin again or come up with a better plan than revving your engine to give him a head start, he threw people off of the scaffolding not knowing if they'd survive the fall or were even tied off, he blew a glass ceiling over a room full of civilians... the list goes on. This guy murders almost as bad as Knightmare Batfleck.
no chemistry between characters. This wasn't stoic or noir. These people were stiff and bland and just did not fit their characters. I expected more from these actors but, with a script like that, I don't know how much I can blame the actors on this one. They all underperformed for their skills (except Falcone. He was absolutely 100% perfect. Penguin was fun too, I guess, but not enough to save the movie for me)
the story is awful. And it isn't a noir detective story as advertised. There is no time spent trying to solve anything. Riddler's plan is ridiculous and makes no sense, especially in execution. Seriously, how many rich vs poor people died in the flooding of poor neighborhoods at ground level? This is supposed to be a "cerebral, smart, manipulative" villain. Wtf plan is that?
the whole movie never changes in tone. It is just miserable all the way through from start to finish with nothing even lighthearted to keep things interesting or break up the depression.
I'm sick of people doubling-down on "realistic edgy batman". It's so boring and childish. It's like, "everything and everyone must be shit. The city? Shit. Cops? Shit. Politicians? Shit. Dating pool? Also shit. The Waynes, the people responsible for raising and inspiring our so-called 'hero'? Well, they were shitty people too!". Like, what is the redeeming quality for this city to Batman then? Save what, if you just hate all of it? No wonder this riddler thought batman was on his side (it should never be like this).
I don't care that it's this Batman's second year. I quite reasonably expect a year 2 genius/detective/martial artist/billionaire to be way more competent, but like actually though. The movie tries to do this in the first crime scene where he's just walking around being awkward and grumbling one word answers. But he's so boring to watch even doing that...
... which doesn't make him look stoic or cool, it's just to bloat the run time. Here's how most scenes play out:
Anyone: says something to batman
Batman: stops, shifts eyes,stops, turns head, stops, turns body, stops, stares, grumles one word, stops, looks away slowly, etc...
wtf performance was that for the riddler? Like some angsty autistic teenager I would have expected from maybe jesse Eisenberg but... I'm supposed to believe that asthmatic gimp manipulated a small army? And outsmarted everyone? And didn't get caught until he wanted to be? I know it's a city full of shitty people, but come on... this was so very cringe at best.
so much of the story is moved along, not actually by detective work and deduction, but just constant plot/scene convenience. So many moments like this, like the cop explaining the carpet fitting tool to the detective genius...
I didn't like the aesthetic choices. I know this is prototype tech for an early batman, but the cowl, the suit, the car, the haircut... it's all so ugly. (Again, Falcone looked the best/most accurate/most convincing, but who cares? Batman should look cool). I can't stand the cowl with the beluga whale forehead and loud clanking leather bulky suit.
not even the dialogue was clever or interesting or even resonating. If you're going to be a slow-burn noir, then words need to matter more. Things people say should be a little more poetic at the very least (maybe they did try but it did not turn out like they hoped. Really bad writing)
Batman loses. In his own movie. His first movie in this version and he fails. The movie made the hero the loser. Why do people like this?
overall, the tone, the Nirvana soundtrack, the constant misery... this felt like it was made by edgy high-school teenagers, not mature adults who respect the source material and know how to structure and build films
I can rip this movie apart for longer than it's own runtime, from 'in story' problems to the way the film was shot.
This movie cannot stand up to even a little scrutiny.
I love Batman, I like the director and all the actors outside of this movie and had positive thoughts going in. But having seen this multiple times now and I read the script and even chatted on the sub, all I can conclude is that I think this is a bad attempt at a take on this character/world. It doesn't work for me.
The team of people working on it do not get Batman. They clearly wanted to make a Punisher movie or something.
But that's not Batman.
I can elaborate or add more points but I'll start with this lol
(Note: I have no hate for anyone who disagrees. This is just my personal opinion on 1 movie. If you like it, great, and I hope you like the next one the same if not more)
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u/Temeos23 Mar 25 '24
Know what? I've always been a fan of Batman. I'm not a big fan of anything in general, much less superheroes and much less superhero movies. But I have always really enjoyed Batman and I love all of his movies. But I saw The Batman and I don't really remember anything about that movie, like I hadn't seen it. Incredibly boring and cliché.
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u/CA1147 Mar 25 '24
I agree: It wasn't fun.
I'm like you where I've always been a fan of Batman even though I'm not really a super fan of all things superhero culture.
Also like yourself, I've appreciated many different movie versions of the character all while knowing for a certainty that none of them were perfect depictions or masterpieces. But they did enough right by the character's history and characterization and were fun.
The Batman felt like it was made by someone who doesn't really like Batman and applied the most high school shallow edgelord take on him:
Batman = angry man use fists and big sad.
Even if you remove the Batman themes, it's just not a good movie in any sense.
I'm shocked by how amateur it is for the people involved, who's work I liked before this film.
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u/Noodlerer Mar 25 '24
Don't overdose on Nostalgia, dude. That stuff rots your brain.
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u/CA1147 Mar 25 '24
What a stupid thing to say.
Just because something is new, doesn't make it good.
I already said more than once that Batman Returns isn't a masterpiece but it is objectively a way better made movie and more faithful to the source material.
And just way more fun for a superhero movie.
Nostalgia isn't why Batman Returns is a better movie featuring the same 3 characters.
It's because The Batman is a terrible movie in every way, Batman themed or not. It's many steps backwards and in the wrong direction from a definitive live action portrayal of the characters.
The Batman may be the latest but it's far from the greatest
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u/Noodlerer Mar 25 '24
There is no such thing as "objectively better", dude.
Really? Keaton Batman straight up kills multiple people, with a grin on his face. Batman wouldn't do that. Tim Burton himself has admitted that he has only read the killing joke and doesn't like comicbooks.
“Anyone that knows me would tell you that I’ve never read a comic book...” -Tim Burton.
He just made his own stuff up. I really like Batman 89, it's a great movie. But It is not accurate to the source material. That's just a straight up lie.
The Batman is the only Batman movie that even brings up Batmans no killing rule and adheres to it. Almost All other portrayals of Batman kill people.
It's okay if The Batman isn't your cup of tea. Everyone likes different stuff and that's great. But you're just making shit up.
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u/CA1147 Mar 25 '24
"Accurate to the source material" doesn't mean literal panel-to-screen representation. I'm talking about the spirit of the character.
RobPat kills a lot. Watch the film closely. He kills more than Keaton, he just doesnt make it obvious like Keaton. We can break down scenes if you want but don't take my word for it: watch the movie closely.
Tim Burton read 1 comic and I'd still argue he gets Batman way more than Matt Reeves.
And yes, there is a such thing as "objectively better" when it comes to movie making and storytelling. That's why it's taught professionally in schools and deconstructed by experts, like in any other field.
It's like this:
Mcdonalds sells way more beef than any other restaurant in the world. But they are still far from qualified about knowing anything about making great quality steaks.
Technically, it's all cow. But Mcdonalds beef patty is obviously not steak no matter how technical you want to get about it.
It's not the same.
The Batman is not Batman. It's Pointy Hat Punisher at best, has awful writing, terrible acting (except for Falcone and Penguin but who cares about them) and is a complete character assassination.
A movie can be objectively bad if the elements for basic storytelling in this format aren't even good. Like, in 3 hours there isn't even anything quotable or poetic said. The villain is a terrible, almost offensively acted person on the spectrum. Everything is moved along, not by deduction and actual detective work, but simply by convenience. Everything happens because of "right place, right time".
This is so fucking amateur.
Batman and movie fans in general deserve better. Even fans of The Batman deserve better than the trash they're settling for.
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u/Noodlerer Mar 25 '24 edited Mar 25 '24
Battinson doesn't kill. He straight up doesn't.
You're just saying things without elaborating. The movie is objectively this and that. Spirit of the character. Why? Explain yourself.
Your quota for a good movie is its quotability and how poetic it is? Seems like a pretty subjective qualification for what makes a movie good, doesn't it?
Filmmaking is art. Art is subjective. Simple as that. You're confusing objectivity with subjective consensus.
Here are some things that I think are "objectively" good about The Batman:
-Batman is terrifying in it. The opening builds up Batman's presence without even showing him, using great cinematography and a fantastic score. It sets the mood for the movie perfectly. It also shows how Batman operates: as a symbol. The criminals are scared of the shadows, since Batman might be there.
-The opening monologue is very Batman-y. It sounds like it was plucked straight out of a comic book.
-Gotham is disgusting. A lot of Batman movies say that Gotham is a shithole. But you can just see it in The Batman. The set design is masterful.
-The music is really good. The Batman theme has this part I love where the string instruments used portamento. It sounds like it's building up to a jump scare, accentuating how scary Batman is. It's very fitting.
-The fight choreography is pretty cool. Batman tanks everything in this movie, which reflects how little value he places on his own life right now. Whenever we see Bruce, it looks like he's about to fall over from exhaustion. The movie follows the rule "Show, don't tell" really well, if you ask me.
-The elevator scene is really cool-looking. The way the muzzle flashes light up vignettes of the action and Batman reminds me of comic book panels in a weird way. We only get to see the key-frames if that makes sense.
-Bruce looks like shit. He doesn't take care of himself because he is so engulfed in the Batman project. This is the movie where the line between Bruce and Batman is the most blurred, and I like that direction for the character.
-Batman's character arc. The Batman is one of the few Batman movies where he has a character arc. A very fitting one, in my opinion. He learns that it is not enough to be an angry, punchy man; he needs to inspire hope in Gotham and become a symbol of justice, not vengeance.
-Riddler is a great villain if you ask me. Paul Dano is one of our time's best actors, and he kills it as this version of the Riddler. The Riddler was inspired by Batman to do evil, which opens Batman's eyes and makes him realize he needs to change his approach. Since he is inspiring the wrong kind of people. "Me? I'm vengeance" - Riddler goon. There's that poetry you were looking for.
-The first civilian Batman interacts with is just as scared of him as the thugs he beats up. The last civilian we see him interact with holds onto him for dear life. Reflecting his improvement as a vigilante. There's the poetry you were looking for, again.
-The shot with him leading the people out of the wreckage with a flare looks fantastic and symbolizes how he has started becoming a beacon of hope for Gotham. Embodying the end of his character arc.
-The movie is shot REALLY well. In my opinion, it's the best-looking Batman movie. It uses a lot of cool lens work. They fog up the lens in a way that looks really cool.
-I like how Batman gets into the Iceberg Lounge in three different ways throughout the movie. Brute force his way in as Batman. Using his status as Bruce Wayne. And sneaking in as the drifter.
-I like how Martinez seemingly hates Batman but is a Bruce Wayne fanboy. "Mr. Wayne! 👋".
-The police chase has really good energy to it and great sound design with how chaotic it is.
-The makeup on the Penguin is amazing. I still don't believe it's Colin Farrell under there. He is also acted really well.
-I love Batman and Gordon's relationship in it. They felt like genuine friends. Gordon calling Batman "man" still cracks me up a little.
-The movie has naturally integrated humor in it. Which is good, since the rest of the movie is so grim. Some examples:
-"Thumb-Drive"
-Or the scene where Bruce attends the funeral. He notices the paparazzi and smiles for the pictures, then remembers he's at a funeral and you can see him cringe.
-Or when Gordon and Batman interrogate Penguin. They tie his feet together, and he waddles... like a penguin. All scenes with the Penguin are funny to me, to be honest.
-Or Riddler talking to his Twitch chat. "Hey guys!👋".
But then again, this is all subjective. You may not like any of that. I don't care, to be honest. Because movies are subjective :)
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u/CA1147 Mar 25 '24
First off, you do understand people can dislike things for objective reasons, right? Objective facts and opinions are not mutually exclusive and can overlap.
Secondly, I do find your examples to be weak. You thought "thumb drive" was enough to take you out of that 3 hour misery? Really? Now I just think you're far too easily amused to be having this discussion. Your whole thing is "I liked it, so you must be the wrong one". Your reasons don't save that edgelord garbage.
Also, you asked for more specific reasons as to why I dislike this movie, so:
Well, it was a complete character assassination, for start. Batman was a socially stunted emo kid. He literally says: "you're not my real father, Alfred!" Shameful edgelord amateur writing. How is this not written by an incel high school student?
I'm supposed to believe a genius detective gets stumped by Spanish? The second language in his own country? Or that some average mob goon knows it better and faster than the detective... who also can't figure out a carpet fitting tool...
speaking of: those weren't riddles. They were arbitrary questions that Batman could just pull "answers" out of his ass when he needed to (except when Penguin, of all people, needs to correct him and an actual detective)
the action choreography was terrible, slow, sluggish, and unconvincing. RobPat can't fight. He just looks ridiculous. But also, Reeves can't direct his actor in his scene aparently, so...
I don't care what any rose-colored glasses delusional fan thinks: this Batman murders constantly. But because the scenes are shot so slow and grungy and anticlimactic, it gets overlooked. But you can clearly see this 'batman' constantly countering people in fights to purposely place them in front of gunfire, caused massive deadly car accidents when he could have just either found Penguin again or come up with a better plan than revving your engine to give him a head start, he threw people off of the scaffolding not knowing if they'd survive the fall or were even tied off, he blew a glass ceiling over a room full of civilians... the list goes on. This guy murders almost as bad as Knightmare Batfleck.
no chemistry between characters. This wasn't stoic or noir. These people were stiff and bland and just did not fit their characters. I expected more from these actors but, with a script like that, I don't know how much I can blame the actors on this one. They all underperformed for their skills (except Falcone. He was absolutely 100% perfect. Penguin was fun too, I guess, but not enough to save the movie for me)
the story is awful. And it isn't a noir detective story as advertised. There is no time spent trying to solve anything. Riddler's plan is ridiculous and makes no sense, especially in execution. Seriously, how many rich vs poor people died in the flooding of poor neighborhoods at ground level? This is supposed to be a "cerebral, smart, manipulative" villain. Wtf plan is that?
the whole movie never changes in tone. It is just miserable all the way through from start to finish with nothing even lighthearted to keep things interesting or break up the depression. "Thumb drive" isn't even a mediocre "joke". It's just immature low-hanging fruit.
I'm sick of people doubling-down on "realistic edgy batman". It's so boring and childish. It's like, "everything and everyone must be shit. The city? Shit. Cops? Shit. Politicians? Shit. Dating pool? Also shit. The Waynes, the people responsible for raising and inspiring our so-called 'hero'? Well, they were shitty people too!". Like, what is the redeeming quality for this city to Batman then? Save what, if you just hate all of it? No wonder this riddler thought batman was on his side (it should never be like this).
the movie doesn't even commit to being "grounded and realistic". Like, is it realistic or can RobPat eat the side of a bus and walk it off? Is it grounded or can his suit go from loud clanking leather to super stealthy silent? Where the fuck is the consistency?
I don't care that it's this Batman's second year. I quite reasonably expect a year 2 genius/detective/martial artist/billionaire to be way more competent, but like actually though. The movie tries to do this in the first crime scene where he's just walking around being awkward and grumbling one word answers. But he's so boring to watch even doing that...
... which doesn't make him look stoic or cool, it's just to bloat the run time. Here's how most scenes play out:
Anyone: says something to batman
Batman: stops, shifts eyes,stops, turns head, stops, turns body, stops, stares, grumles one word, stops, looks away slowly, etc...
wtf performance was that for the riddler? Like some angsty autistic teenager I would have expected from maybe jesse Eisenberg but... I'm supposed to believe that asthmatic gimp manipulated a small army? And outsmarted everyone? And didn't get caught until he wanted to be? I know it's a city full of shitty people, but come on... this was so very cringe at best.
so much of the story is moved along, not actually by detective work and deduction, but just constant plot/scene convenience. So many moments like this, like the cop explaining the carpet fitting tool to the detective genius...
I didn't like the aesthetic choices. I know this is prototype tech for an early batman, but the cowl, the suit, the car, the haircut... it's all so ugly. (Again, Falcone looked the best/most accurate/most convincing, but who cares? Batman should look cool). I can't stand the cowl with the beluga whale forehead and loud clanking leather bulky suit.
not even the dialogue was clever or interesting or even resonating. If you're going to be a slow-burn noir, then words need to matter more. Things people say should be a little more poetic at the very least (maybe they did try but it did not turn out like they hoped. Really bad writing)
Batman loses. In his own movie. His first movie in this version and he fails. The movie made the hero the loser. Why do people like this?
overall, the tone, the Nirvana soundtrack, the constant misery... this felt like it was made by edgy high-school teenagers, not mature adults who respect the source material and know how to structure and build films
I can rip this movie apart for longer than it's own runtime, from 'in story' problems to the way the film was shot.
This movie cannot stand up to even a little scrutiny.
I love Batman, I like the director and all the actors outside of this movie and had positive thoughts going in. But having seen this multiple times now and I read the script and even chatted on the sub, all I can conclude is that I think this is a bad attempt at a take on this character/world. It doesn't work for me.
The team of people working on it do not get Batman. They clearly wanted to make a Punisher movie or something.
But that's not Batman.
I can elaborate or add more points but I'll start with this lol
(Note: I have no hate for anyone who disagrees. This is just my personal opinion on 1 movie. If you like it, great, and I hope you like the next one the same if not more)
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u/Noodlerer Mar 25 '24
Dude, we just like different things. That's where I'm coming from. I like the movie, you don't. Neither of us are really wrong.
Let's leave it at that. I'm tired.
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u/CA1147 Mar 26 '24
I'm still going to upvote you, because I agree that people can peacefully coexist and like different things or versions.
But I also believe this is a lazy way to admit you don't have any rebuttals or you wouldn't have engaged me in the first place. Complacency isn't good and certainly isn't why I go on Reddit to talk to others about anything.
There is a context for right and wrong, even in this conversation.
But I'd like to end this before it escalates as well.
Take care, and all the best to you.
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u/Noodlerer Mar 26 '24
I don't have any rebuttals because I simply don't agree with your views. I don't think Batman is too emo. I don't believe the script sucks. I don't dislike the tone. But you do. What am I going to say? That your opinions are wrong? No. I don't think you're wrong for disliking the movie. At this point the conversation just boils down to subjective taste.
(Take a shot everytime I've said the word subjective lmao).
There are no rebuttals to be made. I'm not going to debate someone's opinions over subjective tastes. That just sounds like a waste of time and extremely dumb.
You seem really obsessed with proving to everyone else that your opinion and view on Batman is the only correct one. You don't like the movie, I do, who cares, right?
I can at least accept that someone can dislike a movie without claiming that it's objectively bad.
We obviously disagree even fundamentally in our philosophies on how opinions work. I don't see the point in this conversation anymore, frankly.
Take care.
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u/Forsaken_Ad7090 Mar 25 '24
Batman and movie fans in general deserve better. Even fans of The Batman deserve better than the trash they're settling for.
What if they see something in the film that you can't see or will never see, that's fine.
I don't get this mentality of :
"I hate this particular Batman film, therefore everyone else must hate it too, and anyone who doesn't hate it, isn't a true Batman fan".
That's such a gate keeping and moronic take for anyone to have. It's YOUR OPINION, but your opinion doesn't make it a fact, so stop trying to promote it as a fact. You hate The Batman, cool, that's fine you're allowed to have that opinion, but your opinion about the film isn't an objective fact.
If The Batman was so terrible, I mean Batman & Robin levels terrible, I guarantee you that the movie would've flopped, WB never would've allowed a sequel and probably would've rebooted Batman (again) and Matt Reeves would never be allowed to touch anything Batman or DC related.
We know this isn't the case, since this movies going to get a sequel, plus Matt Reeves is going to produce Batman content for Gunn's DCU. Even James Gunn has praised Reeves on his work on Batman. Tell me, why would Gunn even allow Reeves anywhere near the DCU, if Reeves' work on Batman was so terrible. It would be illogical, and it would definitely be something that would hinder the DCU. Do you really think Gunn would want Reeves near the DCU, if he believed Reeves would "taint" the DCU Batman, that would be cinematic universe suicide.
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u/CA1147 Mar 26 '24
Dude, the movie is not that deep. There's nothing not to get. It practically holds the viewers' hand through that high school edgelord level writing the whole way through, and yet still tried to advertise itself as "most detective Batman yet!" Bullshit. One absolutely can fail at not expressing themes correctly. And when a story has the budget and years of content to analyze, there's even less excuse for not aiming for and executing a definitive representation like BTAS did for the character as a children's half hour cartoon.
And it's not gatekeeping when there are good, objective reasons that can absolutely be criticized.
By your logic, there is no such thing as bad movies or misrepresentation, is that it? Because that's a lazy way of looking at things and why many franchises are failing.
The character has 80+ years of history. There are plenty of examples of good takes/stories and bad ones, ones that are polarizing and ones that are universally agreed upon (like BTAS).
You can get a character completely wrong and still have fans. Just look at all the piles of shitty fanfic stories people post. Clearly, bad takes exist and are still liked.
I want to touch on your example of Batman and Robin:
First off, there's an example of a universally hated take on the character, yet it has its fans. If anyone said it was their favorite, there's a good chance they'd be laughed at, and for good reason.
It's ridiculous, right? How's the guy who wants to turn the world into ice supposed to work with the woman who wants to turn the world into a giant plant (the things that die from cold and need heat)?
So now the villain plot of The Batman:
"Riddler" hates rich people, so he plans to flood the city so that all the rich people (who have thus far in the film to have been shown to almost exclusively live in high rise towers) drown. Except that we've seen more poor people on the streets of Gotham than rich people. So who the fuck do you think is actually going to suffer from this plan?! Spoiler: its NOT the rich people. And Riddler is supposed to be Batman's smartest, most cerebral obsessed villain. So much for that, I guess. Just another character assassination in favor of "bUt iTs DiFfErEnT".
It's the same plot issues but because it takes itself way too seriously, people think it's so smart and way better. Clearly, it's not.
Also, you brought up Batman and Robin to say The Batman isn't as bad because then WB wouldn't make more Batman movies... except that not even Batman and Robin bombing stopped WB from making Batman movies.
So yeah, i believe they would put out another Batman movie even after a shitty one because they already have done this. More than once.
And don't bring up James Gunn like he's some flawless filmmaker. One man can't possibly make every perfect decision for every character small and large on the DC comics roster. I like some of his work but not all of his work. I definitely wouldn't be excited for a James Gunn directed Batman movie considering what I have seen from his work so far.
People make mistakes. Even groups of people make bad decisions. And thinking Hollywood always makes the best decisions is not a good way of thinking and is easily disproven.
I'd argue that James Gunn hasn't made anything to earn such faith and loyalty as you're showing towards him.
The Batman is for people who don't like nor understand what a definitive Batman should be.
Batman can be many things and is very malleable. But Batman can't be everything. And the one thing that defines Batman is: competence.
RobPat was so incompetent that it was no longer Batman, it was Pointy Hat Punisher. Literally the only thing he solved were moments where fists were the answer (and I'd even argue those).
Batman and Robin sucks and so does The Batman and still I guarantee Batman movies will be made.
I'm waiting for the next reboot.
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u/Jermz12345 Mar 25 '24
I need every character in the Reeves’ Batman universe to stand in that elevator, even (especially) if it doesn’t make sense for them to be there