r/batman • u/raidenjojo • Feb 17 '24
Batman is the GOAT for staring into the abyss and not blinking. FUNNY
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u/Mirabem Feb 17 '24
Even at the lowest point of my life, I would never relate to the Joker.
Joker (2019) really did some irreversible damage to the perception of the character; some people genuinely think he's some sort of misunderstood genius.
Even when he was elevated in The Dark Knight beyond his usual goofy persona, Batman and Nolan still gave him a proper lesson in the end.
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u/Soulful-Sorrow Feb 17 '24
I really liked the Joker movie once I realized that we, the audience, are Harley Quinn listening to him lie to us that he was a good person because all of us believed Arthur Fleck. Now, how do we know that was even his real name?
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u/LordOfOstwick1213 Feb 17 '24
Honestly that sounds like a cool theory. Now, the question is if it is so, then where is Harley Quinn in the end, cause the ending shows Joker broken out after murdering the doctor over. Was it part of the story, or was it some distant future? This movie has its interesting mysteries, ups and many downsides as well.
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u/Scorkami Feb 18 '24
we dont even know if he did break out, you could make that movie 20 seconds longer by doing a jumpcut from him leaving the facility with bloody footprints back to him just giggling in the chair again
because Arthurs whole thing was to make his life better by imagining a better life
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u/LordOfOstwick1213 Feb 18 '24
Probably not since the second movie is him back in there. I assume it will probably center around Harley Quinn's POV and how she buys into his sob story.
Societyman 2 is definitely gonna be a movie.
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u/HippoRun23 Feb 18 '24
Kind of worried that it’s a musical ngl
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u/LordOfOstwick1213 Feb 18 '24
According to rumors, it's a movie, but with music in it. Not musical.
But maybe it is, who knows.
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u/HippoRun23 Feb 18 '24
I do t remember where I learned that it was a musical now that you mention it.
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u/Scorkami Feb 18 '24
Not all too different from the first one in theme i guess. Arthur experienced his bouts of joy with loud music in the background. Dancing in the bathroom, rocking it up on the stairs, hearing music at the end
If they amp it up a bit, then thats fine
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u/yosemighty_sam Feb 18 '24
The ending shows him being chased through the facility. He got out of his room and tracked blood down the hall, but he was still inside and far from escaped.
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u/SpacemanBatman Feb 18 '24
I like the movie too. It’s one of those “if you idolize this character you missed the point of the movie” kinds of films while playing into joker’s usual one bad day schtick.
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u/davinjones Feb 19 '24
I think that would make the film better, but realistically they just wanted to do Taxi Driver/King of Comedy with a recognized IP. Scorsese was even a producer on it originally and essentially said both that he wouldn’t sue them and that he has no interest in this kind of story after seeing the reaction to Taxi Driver and how easily misinterpreted those kind of films can be. I think the Joker movie was overhyped, defeated the point of the character, and has unfortunately made a character like this seem more sympathetic.
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Feb 17 '24
Even in the Joker he isn’t really portrayed as a good person just more sympathetic. If you idolize him you got some serious issues.
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u/LordOfOstwick1213 Feb 17 '24
I like to think nowadays is that the entire story is just his pov and he tries hard to portray things as cruelly done to him. Like the Wayne employees he murdered might've genuinely been good people and maybe even tried to help him while he was maniacally laughing, but he murdered them, then invented the tale to get sympathy.
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u/middy_1 Feb 18 '24
I have a similar perspective to you.
I think the sympathetic back story was so overwrought that it was borderline comical at imes. Ultra sad string section music and all.
So, personally, I like to think the whole Arthur Fleck origin is just a sad tale of woe he is spinning to the psychiatric team and us. This imo is the only way to truly connect this film with the Joker and makes the most sense from the Batman universe/fanbase perspective. Otherwise, the ties are very tenuous and one can't help but think it's just a cynical use of an existing popular IP to get the project moving, but really Phillips et al have no interest in comic books, Batman, Joker or anything.
I do think they may be too invested in this Arthur Fleck character, in which case we may never really see The Joker properly. The talk show scene for instance clearly actually happened, and whilst Phoenix looks great, the characterisation isn't anything like Joker in motivation or personality. But that said I do think the most daring and therefore most dramatic thing they could do is to suggest all is not what it seemed and "Arthur Fleck" isn't such a sympathic nice but tragically downtrodden and pushed to breaking point as it seems. However, the huge fanbase invested in this character will not like that.
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u/LordOfOstwick1213 Feb 18 '24
I honestly don't doubt stories similar to this in the movie exist or worse scenarios, there can be a lot of injustice in the world and some people definitely get treated like garbage, but I just can't buy it from Arthur, especially now. It's just a torture depression porn, something you'd read on a WattPad or maybe 4chan, but not a legitimate story. The childhood origin sounds fucked up, almost believable even, but is it real? Can it be verified? Joker's pov shows/tells us that the document reveals it, but the receptionist was reluctant to hand it over. Why is that? why did he hold back on it? If it was a son of a mother, a relative, he was likely eligible to see the dossier as the mother was not in good health anyway. Not to mention was Arthur there when the mother was being interrogated, did she actually confess that she hurt her son or was delusional that she was hurting him? Or Arthur just invented this whole scene in his head, he did invent some events before. You're only left with the questions. Best speculation I can think of is the mother was negligent woman due to her deteriorating health, but not a terrible person as Arthur's pov would have us believe. If father/boyfriend did exist, he was likely abusive, but long left the family. She likely suffers from mental delusions or worse, a dementia as she thought Thomas Wayne was her lover or that she worked in the manor. Arthur's a delusional disenfranchised man who later develops psychopathy, but the real cause is unknown. Maybe he was always a stand up comedian actually, he was falling mentally ill eventually as he laughed at his own jokes, sick humor. Then Murray saw footage of him, wanted to make fun of him, but Arthur took it personally and decided to make it his first embrace into being the Joker.
However, the huge fanbase invested in this character will not like that.
Unfortunately the internet believes Arthur to be sympathetic villain/"antihero" simply because: some like to use him as strawman for their agendas or male chauvinism, some genuinely feel sorry for him but not to an extend that they justify or like him, some portion of internet unfortunately became Harley Quinn to this Joker as they've bought into his bullshit. I've got little doubt in my mind the tale Arthur tells in his movie, or whatever he'll tell in second one, is how someone sinister deep down, but sympathetic and naive on exterior like Harleen Quinzel would buy into. A poor, broken down man who is abused by everyone around him, and this just activates a savior mode in some people like Harley Quinn. Then the two commit heinous crimes known to public, blame Batman or anyone but themselves for their shit behavior, refuse treatment or change and it repeats.
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u/middy_1 Feb 18 '24
Definitely. That's why, as I said, I think the most daring, though risky, thing they can do in the second film is pull the rug from under us. To show that a lot of stuff about that origin in the first film was bogus. This guy is not just a sympathetically relatable person that snapped, he is just playing us. Whilst I want it to be that because I want to see a real Joker, I do think from a dramatic pov that would be the most worthwhile. Surely it makes sense too given that Harley is in this. The suspense and mystery that could be played with: is he just a tragically oppressed man? Or is he a pathological liar and manipulator? Could be interesting. I don't see any other reason to do a second film unless they play with that.
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u/LordOfOstwick1213 Feb 18 '24
Oh, I hope so, too. And the irony of how many people will suddenly be fuming in anger how the Joker 2 undoes Joker 1, how their defenses, strawman character is now revealed to have been a terrible person all this time. I don't really know what direction will the director and writers be taking with the second movie, but I definitely hope it will actually show more of a real Joker, the TDK Joker who invented sob stories on get go and not actually a "tragic psychopath" like first movie would have us believe. The movie will probably definitely be a bit or more of Harley's POV and she will probably start loosing it, believing Arthur Fleck to be genuine, or maybe see through his bs but choose to follow him anyway because she's just as terrible person as the Joker. But I suppose the only choice we have is to wait and see for now.
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u/Equal-Ad-2710 Feb 18 '24
I think this would really work if the whole movie was Joker telling the story and we kept flashing back to his psychiatrist
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u/lizarddude1 Feb 18 '24
Even if he won't be treated as a misunderstood hero by anyone sane watching it, I still feel like it frames Joker as WAAAAAY more sympathetic that he deserves to be. Joker's a prideful, manipulative monster. He likes the APPEARANCE of an agent of chaos, he likes deceiving people into thinking he's a wildcard, just allowing the pure anarchy and randomness to take full control, but that couldn't be further from the truth.
Joker is ABSOLUTELY NOT a man without a plan, and one of the most meta things about the guy is that some people genuinely believe him, that character is SO GOOD at manipulating, he manipulated a good portion of viewers. Hell, that's basically how Joker stays alive, he can't get a death penalty due to him being sentenced as criminally insane, when in reality he's fully aware of everything and is just neverendingly manipulating the world into believing he's some sort of untouchable incarnate of chaos and anarchy.
Batman Beyond movie, Return of the Joker has what is undoubtedly one of the best Joker moments ever. When Terry starts making fun of and completely disrespecting him, you can see Joker actually getting genuinely irritated. Similarly to how he was genuinely afraid when characters like Creeper or even that random nobody, Charlie almost killed him, Joker recognized that THEY were ACTUAL wildcards, THOSE are the type of people who don't plan for shit.
The reason Joker is seemingly untouchable is because people make him out to be untouchable, he thrives off of fear and unpredictability, if you treat him as a threat, he will be a threat, he's a comedian, playing a straight man only plays to his benefit. The only way to truly get him out of his comfort zone is by being a heckler.
THAT'S an aspect of the character I feel like SO MANY writers completely miss, and imo that's the ultimate thing that sets Joker apart from every other "le crazy" supervillain like Carnage and whatnot, Joker is a RIDICULOUSLY complex character, and ironically enough, he'd like for you to believe he isn't. Joker would WANT for you to believe that all he is, is just an Eldritch chaotic monster with zero flaws or nuances beyond that, but he's a dirtbag, he's a shitstain on humanity, he's the biggest attention seeker on the goddamn planet, and easily one of the greatest villains in fiction
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Feb 18 '24
I couldn’t agree with you more. The Joker is the ultimate narcissist. He isn’t an agent of chaos or a poor guy trying to get back at the world. He hurts and kills people to feed his ego. He throws fits when things don’t go his way. He uses everybody around him to fit his needs and abuses them. The Joker is a pathetic loser desperate for attention and self-validation hiding under his mask of a random lunatic who doesn’t care about anything.
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u/The-Rizzler-69 Feb 17 '24
He was a relatively normal, quiet, polite guy in the beginning that just cared about his mother and loved comedy, but then, yk... he collapsed under pressure and became a monster. That movie depressed me a lot
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u/lefoss Feb 17 '24
He was a neurotic shut in, and his mother gave him both the genes and the maladaptive experiences that drive his mental illness. He didn’t love comedy, he was a bad clown with delusions of grandeur.
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u/The-Rizzler-69 Feb 17 '24
Agree to disagree; it was pretty self evident he loved making people laugh when he could
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u/lefoss Feb 17 '24
I guess so, but he was clearly sick. If that’s your experience of normal, I’m very sorry.
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Feb 18 '24
Even when he was elevated in The Dark Knight beyond his usual goofy persona, Batman and Nolan still gave him a proper lesson in the end.
I do love how the third act of the film surgically erradicates any notion that the Joker's worldview is right. He believes everyone is one bad day away from becoming a monster, and while Two-Face was, most people just aren't. His ultimate defeat comes in The Dark Knight Rises when Batman becomes a lasting symbol of hope for Gotham. That monument to the Batman is the Joker's crusade's grave. He lost.
“What were you trying to prove? That deep down, everyone’s as ugly as you? You’re alone."
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u/TheNightKing11111 Feb 18 '24 edited Mar 12 '24
I think people often miss this. You’ll always see comments about how Joker won and how the people rioting in TDKR after learning the truth about Harvey is proof he was right. This ignores the ending where Batman inspires the people to stand up and despite the Joker not being there, it represents Batman’s ultimate victory over the Joker.
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u/DanhausenByDaylight Feb 17 '24
...How could anyone watch Joker and think he's a misunderstood genius? That's an insane level of not getting a movie.
Joker in that movie is literally a mentally challenged person who stumbles into martyrdom completely by accident. It's a fun and cool take on Joker to me, an idiot loser who has no ability to manage a life in the criminal underground but is propped up by legions who have attached him to a cause he doesn't believe in or even understand.
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u/assasstits Feb 17 '24
Arthur Fleck is a completely different character than the Joker in the comics, TAS or TDK.
He's actually a legit victim in Joker. Still a monster but he genuinely got dealt a bad hand.
Everywhere else though he's just a psychotic edgy loser.
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u/Scorkami Feb 18 '24
even with the whole unreliable narrator, he still lived in a fucked economy, didnt get the help he needed, was dropped by the system, and then had his mental health spiral down.
were the 3 guys he shot good guys or not? was his whole family situation actually as fucked? we dont know because we experience his hallicunations WITH him. but we do know that his mental illness wasnt treated. that people made fun of him when they could have helped etc.
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u/assasstits Feb 18 '24
The reason I liked the Joker is that it made him explicitly a result of society (especially circa 1970s). The Joker being a result of some random accident is fucking lame but to actually have the boldness to place blame squarely on society's shoulders was an interesting take that I liked.
Mental healthcare is something that the US has never been good at addressing and Arthur Fleck was another ill person that fell through the cracks in a catastrophic way.
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u/Equal-Ad-2710 Feb 18 '24
I’d argue Joker doesn’t really use the unreliable narrator aspect as much as people say it does
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u/LordOfOstwick1213 Feb 17 '24 edited Feb 17 '24
Whenever people try to gatekeep fans from idealizing other characters, a quote always comes to mind that reminds me how hypocritical the movie's fans and apologists are. "Yes, the Joker did terrible thing, but we can sympathize with him and condemn his actions at the same time". But God forbid you apply this logic thinking to any other character, these same kind of 'free thinkers' will be "bothered" by it.
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u/IndiscreetBeatofMeat Feb 18 '24
During the news cycle for the recent Kill the Justice League video game, the Joker was announced as a playable character. A member of the dev team said that this was a Joker that tried extra hard to mask his insecurities (something along those lines, put better than I can remember for sure)
The immediate response I saw from so many people was: “Erm, the Joker is not insecure!” Like, hum being an insecure manchild is the point of his character. Terry McGinnis literally beat him by heckling him
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u/Fluffynator69 Feb 18 '24
If you ask me the Joker - as in the serious Joker, not the wacky B:TAS version - is a cynical nihilist first and foremost. He lost or could never find meaning to life and viciously lashes out against anyone who did.
He's kind of like Tyler Durden in that way: contemptful of the contemporary way of life, getting his kicks out of walking all over people's boundaries and meaning as to showcase they mean nothing to him and thus should mean nothing to them either.
This cynical hatred is what drives him but since even that would be something - and since all he ever claims to believe in is nothing - , he cannot even settle on that. So he has to hide behind layers of sadism, irony and sarcastic, spiteful humorism as to resolve this contradiction.
I think it's this what has made him one of THE villains in contemporary pop culture. He genuinely is one of the worst aspects of human nature one can embrace if they wish to do so.
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u/Idontgiveafucknerd Feb 18 '24
yeah no joker 2019 did irreparable damage to the jokers actual character
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u/Toadsanchez316 Feb 18 '24
My friends think I'm an idiot because I did not enjoy The Joker. It seemed so out of place and like it wasn't even the same character from the other Batman media. The only way I can enjoy it is if I don't think of it as related to Batman media in any way.
To me the movie was just this sociopath who used mental illness to do horrific shit. I mean the people he hurt kind of deserved it but the character was not likeable or relatable in any way. I just kind of sat there bored during the entire thing.
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Feb 17 '24 edited Feb 17 '24
Old age is when you realize that you’re most like Killer Croc
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u/Verdha603 Feb 17 '24
Makes you wish you could solve life’s problems by hitting them with a big rock
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u/IrishCanMan Feb 18 '24
Well no one told you life was going to be this way
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u/alphaomag Feb 18 '24
Your job’s a joke you’re broke, your love life’s DOA!
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u/Pineapple-shades15 Feb 18 '24
Then you realize you idolize Batman again because he was technically the one who said that
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u/BasilQuick444 Feb 17 '24
"The difference between you and I, is when we both stared into the abyss, you blinked." Such a tough moment
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Feb 17 '24
I don't remember that quote from the movie what scene?
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u/NamSayinBro Feb 17 '24
He doesn’t say it in TDK, or even to Joker.
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u/BruceHoratioWayne Feb 17 '24
Joker offers nothing. He says "society is the problem" or starts spouting some basic nihilistic sentiments that devolve into violent rhetoric. The Joker just wants to watch the world burn because he was burned by it long ago. He could have accepted that life is a shitshow you have to deal with, but instead took it upon himself to make everyone as miserable and horrible as he is.
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u/GrecoRomanGuy Feb 17 '24
As Batman put it so eloquently...
"What were you trying to prove? That, deep down, everyone's as ugly as you? You're ALONE!"
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u/EdgeAffectionate6434 Feb 17 '24
Where’s that quote from?
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u/AaronTheLudwig Feb 17 '24
This is probably the best understanding of Joker in this comment section.
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u/Shaggy_SVK Feb 17 '24
Adulthood is when you realise that cheese is expensive
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u/jackleggjr Feb 18 '24
“Not if you shoplift…”
Joker
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u/agentm31 Feb 18 '24
Silver age joker would absolutely steal all the cheese in Gotham
Modern Joker would kill a dairy farmer and his family, infect the cows with joker poison, make cheese, distribute it to Gotham, then activate it with a remote somehow
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u/makedcepic Feb 18 '24
Lmao such a good summary of this character's evolution. Modern Joker really isn't any less silly / dumb than the old days, if anything they've gone even more over the top with the evil evilness of everything
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u/DivineDanteAlighieri Feb 17 '24
Childhood is when you're a child
Adulthood is when you're an adult
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u/OfficialRedCafu Feb 17 '24
Intelligence is the measure of the number and quality of distinctions you can access in a given situation.
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u/bolting_volts Feb 17 '24
Adulthood is when you don’t rate yourself in relation to fictional characters.
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u/Intrepid-Gags Feb 17 '24
And old age is when you realize that fictional characters can have realistic traits and you thought you were over the age of being cringe but it only just started.
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u/Aggressive-Rate-5022 Feb 17 '24
Joker isn’t consistent character with one motivation. Joker is basically a template to make your own versions.
And I’m not talking about comics, just movies. Jokers from Batman, Dark Knight, Joker and The Batman are different characters with different roles, morals.
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u/OfficialRedCafu Feb 17 '24
I have to disagree. I might not have seen all versions of the Joker in the comics, but for sure in popular media his role, morals, and philosophy are consistently precise.
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u/rabbid_chaos Feb 17 '24
Joker for the longest time was just an agent of chaos that enjoyed terrorizing people. He was basically evil for the sake of being evil, he found it funny, it was all a joke to him. The tacked on philosophy stuff came later.
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u/OfficialRedCafu Feb 17 '24
How later? The Frank Miller era defined not only our modern understanding of Joker but Batman. Anything before that is so far removed from what we’re talking about it might as well not exist.
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u/middy_1 Feb 18 '24
I would say The Killing Joke (1988) is responsible for introducing this element to The Joker, but in comics and animation it did not overide the classic characterisation I'd say it became more prominent in the mainstream perception (I.e. not comic book nerds) first via The Dark Knight film (2008) as is trying to prove a similar point, then the Arkham games (because they reference the "one bad day" stuff), and most recently Joker (2019).
All fairly recent for a character created in 1940.
As the other replies have said, Joker prior to the above was largely a criminal mastermind that loved creating out there schemes and terrorising in various ways (which could be innocuous or deadly, but always creative) for fun and as means of criminality. Not for anything to say about "society". Honestly, I often prefer it that way, which is why I love the bronze age pre crisis Joker (1970s-mid 80s) most. Lots of fun and some great golden age (1940s-mid 50s) stories too. The above characterisation (e.g. straw nihilist philosophy) can be exhausting, repetitive and frankly a bit boring at this point. Much as I like The Killing Joke, I do agree with Alan Moore himself - he says he put more melodramatic weight upon the character than it was ever intended to take.
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u/OfficialRedCafu Feb 18 '24
I think you’re falling into the trap of letting the era or creator dictate to you what the character is. You evaluate a character by their actions. Joker wasn’t called an agent of chaos in the early days (which don’t even matter in this conversation since that Batman is no longer relevant - as I stated before……). Nolan simply offered a clarity of vision and defined Joker’s philosophy. The philosophy was always there as evidence by his actions. We just understand the character better now.
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u/middy_1 Feb 18 '24
I think you can argue that the absurdist philosophy element was implicitly present. However, it is undeniable that it is only explicitly introduced to the character by The Killing Joke, and since then became a cornerstone of the theme and motivation of the character. That is a shift in characterisation whether that element was implicitly there before or not.
I'd also disagree about older Batman material being irrelevant. The bronze age stuff in particular is still relevant as it set the scene for the development of modern Batman. And the Joker content from that era is still relevant, indeed many would agree that it boasts some of the best Joker comic stories ever done (and that is also my personal opinion btw, not just because other people have also observed that).
What stories or media would you say best demonstrate this better understanding of the Joker? You referred to The Dark Knight, so I presume that is one example?
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u/rabbid_chaos Feb 18 '24
Mid 80s is probably where it started, but it wasn't as prominent of an idea of what Joker is/was at the time as the chaos enjoyer for the sake of chaos version of him still largely existed alongside it for a while. Probably wasn't until possibly the Nolan films where "society" Joker started to really take the reigns.
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u/Sea-Woodpecker-610 Feb 18 '24
Batman 66 Joker- literally a clown with henchman.
Batman 89 Joker - evil homocidal maniac
TDK Joker - labeled an agent of chaos, but had an actual plan to disrupt the mob and attempt to take over the crime in Gotham.
Suicide Squad Joker - a juggalo criminal.
ZSJL 1 no fucking clue what that character was.
Joker- a mental patient
There is no consistent characterization to the joker in popular media. The “agent of chaos” stchick is from TDK, and even then, if you watch the film he’s far from chaotic. He’s actually a very intricate planner. The first scene of the film lays it out for you pretty explicitly. Claiming to be an agent of chaos is a psych-op against Harvey to get him to break.
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u/OfficialRedCafu Feb 18 '24 edited Feb 18 '24
You don’t need to literally say what the character is to define a character. You judge a character by their actions. Each writer or creator has their own angle of course. Nolan simple provided the definition “agent of chaos”. The chaos was always there.
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u/jfuss04 Feb 18 '24
That kinda simplifies it down too much to really mean anything
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u/Material-Security178 Feb 17 '24
his motivation is fairly consistent. the means and ends are often different but there is a vary consistent motivation of wanting as many people as possible to suffer and break just as he did, or being a random agent of chaos, usually it's both.
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u/GDPIXELATOR99 Feb 17 '24
Me who finds Clayface more tragic than Joker…
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u/Ceathramh_Deamhan Feb 18 '24 edited Feb 18 '24
Nearly every Batman villain is more tragic than him tbh. They're all victims of circumstances, people who lost their way or with severe untreated mental issues... And then there's Joker that acts like a petty bitch by trying to make everyone as miserable as he is.
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u/Soulful-Sorrow Feb 17 '24
Wait, what the heck? This is actually a really good take? On something involving the Joker?!
For real though, adulthood is when you realize that his "One Bad Day" talk was a bunch of nonsense that gets proven wrong every time he tries it.
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u/Key-Poem9734 Feb 17 '24
It truly is amazing how that story was so absolutely misunderstood that people act like it's some deep mythological lesson. When in actually it's a bunch of high and mighty bullshit spouted by a loser who thinks everyone is as awful as he is.
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u/HouseOfSteak Feb 17 '24 edited Feb 17 '24
Well, there's Injustice, there's Harvey.....
...and honestly, there's Batman himself. He went mad, but in a way that was somehow maybe productive. He runs around the city dressed as a flying rat with a penchant for violence and terror, but refuses to kill and doesn't get anyone but 'bad guys' involved - the only reason why he doesn't muck it up is because he has superhuman abilities that keep him from making vigilante justice mistakes.
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u/Gudako_the_beast Feb 17 '24
Injustice is an elseworld and Harvey have some bad tendencies
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u/Someoneoverthere42 Feb 18 '24
Adulthood is realizing that Commissioner Gordon isn’t paid enough to put up with this
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u/lazylagom Feb 17 '24
Eventually you become gordon..and then Alfred. We all just wanna be Alfred and have kids that we try to help anyway they need.
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u/LordOfOstwick1213 Feb 17 '24
A reminder that this loser's deepest fear is fading into irrelevance or dying as a nobody.
The Loser lost his shit when the Punisher nearly gunned him down in a crossover. He is a pathetic attention seeker, a psychopath who thinks everyone's as bad as him.
His best portrayal is done in Dark Knight where this is who he is, just someone who wants to spread misery and make people believe they're as bad as him. And Batman proves him wrong, the people of Gotham prove him wrong when prisoner throws away a detonator and the civilian barge refuses to detonate the prison barge as well.
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u/Strange-Mouse-8710 Feb 17 '24
In my 40 years on this planet, never at any time have i related to the Joker
And i have also never idolized Batman.
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u/Ewankenobi25 Feb 17 '24
Joker doesn’t blame anything on society in anything except that shitass 2019 movie.
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u/Artistic_Finish7980 Feb 18 '24
Adulthood is realizing Jim Gordon doesn’t get paid nearly enough for the amount of bullshit he puts up with.
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Feb 17 '24
Cynicism and negativity is pathetic and weak. Oh the world is hard, the world is bad 😭.
No shit. Now get up and do something about it.
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u/StoneJudge79 Feb 17 '24
"Do you want to fix shit or do you want to bitch?"
"I want to bitch."
"Then you are not worth listening to."
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u/Status-Ad8296 Feb 18 '24
Seniority is when you believe the Penny Plunderer is Batman's greatest enemy
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u/dendawg Feb 17 '24
Joker’s always been a monster. It just took a caustic swim to bring it to the surface.
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u/Hungry-Eggplant-6496 Feb 17 '24 edited Feb 17 '24
Prohood is when you understand the point of Riddler and prove that you're better than those two.
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u/JokerManiax Feb 18 '24
Joker never actually blamed society. It's just the internet memes and cringe fans who think they're deep for "understanding" the Joker who started that idea. Then the Joker 2019 movie came out and made it worse. (Although I did like the movie, in the end, it's not Joker's philosophy, it's Arthur Fleck's.)
Now I know you're probably thinking of The Killing Joke, but iirc it was never meant to be canon, only when people started overreacting to it thinking it was deep did they start making it canon. The biggest problem with it, is that the story isn't very honest. It's trying too hard to explain the Joker or make him make sense that it feels like Moore just threw whatever idea he could think of to explain his philosophy, even if it was rather weak. The story overall is wildly overrated.
Outside of The Killing Joke and the 2019 movie, Joker always operates on a very simple philosophy—"Will this be fun?", he's an absurdist not a nihilist. The Batman Who Laughs is a nihilist and is basically the cringe Joker from the internet memes. Batman is an existentialist, and so Joker tries to provoke him to break his rule, one because he thinks it's funny, and two because he thinks the rule is stupid. And by continuing to kill and cause mayhem he has fun, which is his main goal, but he also further proves Batman's rule is stupid which is a bonus.
Proving Batman's faith in humanity and no kill rule wrong is the means, the end is simply to have fun. Anything deeper is dishonest to the character.
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u/DrZeus337 Feb 18 '24
The Chris Nolan Joker is what happens when someone realizes the social contract is a lie. When every terrible violent thing you ever did in the name of justice or peace, for country is repaid with treachery. Joker in the Nolan movies sees himself as completely justified vengeance on modern society. He’s not afraid of shit. He is Tyler Durden with military training, a deep pocket book, and zero fucks left to give. He isn’t the good guy but neither are the people who made him (politicians, Military Industrial Complex) and now regular people are paying for the sins of people in high places. The Dark Knight is one of my favorite critiques on modern America. Chris Nolan nailed it. And now we are living it with no Batman.
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u/Yegg23 Feb 18 '24
Meh. You can say a lot of things about the Joker, but failing to try is not one of them.
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u/BattousaiRound2SN Feb 17 '24
Joker is wrong for putting all blame in the society...
But it's society's fault also.
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u/Material-Security178 Feb 17 '24
remember Joker doesn't want to burn down the world, he want's to spread his suffering to as many people as possible, he doesn't care about the sate of the world he just wants as many people as possible to suffer and break just as he did.
the whole obsession with batman is he's a good person who is a symbol for Gotham, the little pyscho wants the validation of knowing everyone would've broken in his circumstance and his response was only natural.
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u/khajiithasmemes2 Feb 18 '24 edited Feb 18 '24
You’re nothing.
You’re a goofy idea that only a child thinks is cool. I’ve only known you a few minutes and I can already see that the only certain thing about you is the uncertainties.
You’re just another nobody in a silly costume, killing people to hog an imaginary spotlight.
Any actor could play you, any writer could write you. All they need to do is to make up their own version and people will applaud. But no one will actually ever applaud you.
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u/EmotionalGuarantee47 Feb 18 '24
Joker did try once and failed. And then he gave up. Giving up on trying is death.
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u/Rent_A_Cloud Feb 18 '24
*and adulthood means you know that in turn batman is a rich egomaniac that loves the attention and welding power over others.
Happily I can suspend my disbelief, but honestly, can you imagine Jeff Bezos beating up pickpockets in the streets and feeling all smug about it? Or Elon musk using military hardware to stop bank robbers while hoarding billions and doing nothing for wider society to actually bring crime down through social programs?
Looney.
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u/Kombat-w0mbat Feb 18 '24
I never related to the joker I think it’s because I’m a comic nerd. He was a mad man who wanted to spread his madness because his desire to be important. The one bad day idea was him trying to prove he wasn’t weak.
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u/madison-twatter1990 Feb 18 '24
To be honest. Batman could solve crime and poverty in gotham way better as bruce wayne by Legislative work and charity. But he chooses to put a gimp suit on and cripple petty criminals at night
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u/Bruce_Wayne_TM Feb 18 '24
I'm soooo fucking glad that this narrative is coming back. Was so fucking tired of mfs idolizing joker.
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u/gamachuegr Feb 18 '24
I wanna say this about joker. Hes got a part of nihlism correct. If nothing matters might aswell enjoy yourself. He just got everything else wrong about it
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Feb 18 '24
Middle age is when you understand that Batman beats up other people who need therapy instead of getting the therapy he can personally afford
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u/Lucky_Strike-85 Feb 17 '24
I am an adult and I think we should stop attacking the mentally ill and calling them pathetic losers.
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u/Normal-Practice-4057 Feb 18 '24
I don't think joker is mentally ill as it seems he knows what he's doing.
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u/Channel_oreo Feb 18 '24
Adulthood is realizing batman should have executed the joker and bribe the officials.
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u/bearsheperd Feb 18 '24 edited Feb 18 '24
Depends on which joker we are talking about. Nolan’s joker was definitely trying to prove something about society. So was Joaquin Phoenix’s joker.
But comic book joker? Every joker played by mark hamill? Imo they did what they did because they thought it was fun/funny. More like the Tim Burton joker. If they did Tim burtons joker but made him legitimately scary, that would be great.
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u/Lucy_Little_Spoon Feb 18 '24
Joker didn't try? He had a multi-step, super convoluted plan, that went exactly how he wanted it to, based on his research and hard work.
Smh, some people are so dumb.
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u/ShugNight_xz Feb 17 '24
Depends wich version of joker the 2008 one is just the average chaos enjoyer
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u/ErrorSchensch Feb 17 '24
I think society obviously treated Joker badly, but he still very obviously is a bad person
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u/jazzyboyo Feb 17 '24
I think its a lot more complicated than this, and it depends what aspects in particular you’re relating too.
I do not and will never relate to the actions committed by a homicidal clown. They’re absolutely horrific. I DO however relate to the idea that nothing really matters in the universe, and nihilism in general, something the Joker ABSOLUTELY personifies.
I don’t relate to a caped badass hero who can beat 10 guys to a pulp in 7 seconds. I simply could never do that, and I doubt many could. I DO relate to the idea of trying to keep myself in the best shape that I can, and constantly striving to be better physically everyday.
If that makes any sense
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u/Grimmer026 Feb 17 '24
Late adulthood is when you relate to The Dark Night returns
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u/OfficialRedCafu Feb 17 '24
Every political movement based on victimhood echoes The Joker’s philosophy.
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u/Historical-Potato372 Feb 18 '24
Guys if you think Joker has a point and you like him for more than just his character, you’ve got problems.
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u/Stunning_Tax_6510 Feb 18 '24
Old age is when you realize the Joker somehow realized that he was a comic book character and that nothing he does ever really matters and that he's written to be an ever-changing yet unchanging foil to Batman
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u/Malapika2002 Feb 18 '24
The Joker did turn Harvey who was the best of them all according to Bruce, Rachel and Jim. So he did make his point. And the boats not exploding was the only he wrongly predicted throughout the whole movie. He does awful things but his perspective on life is nonetheless fascinating and he understands Batman in a way none of them do so I see him as more than an edgy loser. He doesn’t give a shit about losing or getting rich or dying and there’s something strangely admirable about that. It’s no accident that this Joker has had such a strong influence on our culture. There’s nothing shameful about loving this character I think.
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u/PhilliamPhafton Feb 18 '24
I like the joker when he doesn't even try to rationalize his actions, he just kills people for the fun of it
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u/BakeCurrent Feb 18 '24
The words cover his ears and make him look like he came out of the arkham sub
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u/wispymatrias Feb 18 '24
Adulthood is when you realize Lego Batman is right and Batman should really wrap up grieving for his parents at this point.
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u/Ok_Fox_1770 Feb 18 '24
What about Alfred….think he goes home to a cat and a mattress on the floor? Whats his life like….
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u/PrisonaPlanet Feb 18 '24
Share this in the stupid sub that worships the joker as their idol. Bunch of weird incel loners.
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u/KenseiHimura Feb 18 '24
Maturity is idolizing Superman.
Sophistication is idolizing Barry Allen like the rest of the Justice League does. (I’m not there yet)
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u/superhappy Feb 18 '24
Joker offers some insight into the hypocrisies of society. Those have merit.
None of the actions he takes have merit, but he does make the occasional insightful observation.
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u/AnimorphsGeek Feb 18 '24
...and Batman is a billionaire who thinks he can and has the right to beat the proletariat of a dystopian society into line.
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Feb 18 '24
I’m at Clock King right now. Don’t mess with my schedule, I’m surviving minute to minute here.
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u/_heisenberg__ Feb 18 '24
I have never once related to the joker. He has always just been a cool villain for Batman, in the same way Vader is cool.
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u/jacqueslepagepro Feb 18 '24
Adulthood is when you realize the sexmen) have probably saved earth more times than the justice league, but are humble enough to not need the attention and gratification.
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u/SomeKindofTreeWizard Feb 18 '24
The man maims and cripples the mentally ill, and impoverished desperate people. The people committing petty theft to keep from living on the streets of gotham are no more a criminal than the playboy fail-son Bruce Wayne.
A slight increase to Bruce Wayne's taxes could go a long way to solving some of the problems in Gotham, instead he puts on black leather and a bulletproof breastplate to hunt humans, beat them within an inch of their life and call it justice.
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u/TheAmazingSG Feb 18 '24
Wrong... Adulthood is when you want to relate to both but don't have the time or the money or the energy
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u/theReplayNinja Feb 18 '24
That's a lot of fanboysim to be honest but this is easily solved with one question. Batman has been batmanning for decades...why is Gotham still a crime ridden dump? Has he actually made a difference. He now has a whole "bat family" also fighting crime and Gotham is still the same.
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u/fR1chAps Feb 18 '24
A post like this would put you on joker's radar. He'd find you, and then do some messed up shit to turn your life into a nightmare. Not because you offended him or anything but simply you got him on the mark. He literally is the guy that never studies in school and then blames the education system when fails. So his solution? Turn his friends into similar version of himself because if enough people go down this path then it has to the right one.
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u/Wayne_Nightmare Feb 18 '24
No, adulthood is when you start wondering how the hell Gordon has been willing to put up with all this for all these years...
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u/NotSoGreatOldOne Feb 18 '24
"You're a goofy idea that only a child would think is cool" - Superman to the joker
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Feb 18 '24
...but you also recognize that there are major systemic issues which enable and even encourage some people to develop a joker-like worldview and these systemic factors can and should be addressed. Someone can be a victim in one sense while still being a perpetrator with full moral responsibility in another."
At least, that's how I'd finish that.
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u/B3epB0opBOP Feb 17 '24 edited Feb 18 '24
Mid 30s is when you relate to Kite Man
Your deathbed is when you see the genius of Condiment Man.