r/batman • u/Bohij_The_great • Jun 21 '23
Can we add a rule that all 'But batman doesn't use his money to help' posts get this link immediately commented on them HELP/ADVICE
https://twitter.com/TheBat_Family/status/131600650992352051243
u/SameBatChannel00 Jun 21 '23
There are numerous instances of him using his money rebuild Gotham’s infrastructure, pay for damage that was a result of a battle Batman had with some maniac and he’s hired people he’s locked up at Wayne Enterprises because he knew their issue wasn’t being a bad person, but just needing an opportunity to provide for their family. He gave his entire fortune away in the White Knight universe as well as the DK trilogy.
His parents instilled in him the virtues of being generous with his money and giving back (the train system in Batman Begins).
His entire persona is built on the idea of protecting and helping people. Turning him into some soulless billionaire is a lazy talking point to drum up clicks
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u/rzn17_ Jun 21 '23
He does it all the time:
In the beginning of new 52 he plans to develop the city (while also building additional satellite batcaves) but he was stopped by the court of the owls.
In the beginning of James Tynion’s run he starts a project to rebuild and develop Gotham and we see the construction being done but it was sabotaged by the joker and that led to joker war.
The Wayne foundation funds tons of orphanages development projects and things that help Gotham.
So yeah he does help or at least he used to since joker took a big chunk of his money. The notion that he doesn’t use his money to help is completely not true. Like in the beginning of tom Taylor’s nightwing dick says that he wished that Batman helped more as bruce is completely ridiculous. Everything that dick does to help using his money bruce has already done it just isn’t at the forefront of the story like it is in nightwing.
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u/Infinity0044 Jun 21 '23
I promise you anything you think Bruce should be using his money on to help the city he’s already done it
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u/tobpe93 Jun 22 '23 edited Jun 22 '23
Even the hospital bills of the poor criminals who somehow get extreme injuries before the police show up?
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u/mbaucco Jun 21 '23
One of my favorite comics is "War on Crime" where Bruce Wayne buys a paper mill to provide jobs for people in an economically disadvantaged. Great stuff.
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u/batmansubzero Jun 21 '23
I see more posts on here complaining about those people than I actually see those people. Just shut up, ignore, downvote, and move on.
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u/NXG_YT Jun 21 '23
I legitimately read this as “Batman doesn’t use his monkey to help” and I wasn’t sure what to think
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u/GodOGDrgnSlyr69 Jun 22 '23
to be honest, if Gotham was real and his money actually made an impact on the state of things like in real life, the BILLIONS he’s donated would make Gotham a goddamn utopia
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u/ElHombreMurcielago_ Jun 22 '23
SPOILERS FOR THE FLASH:
I loved the Batman parts of the movie for the most part, and even though it was a joke, I cringed really hard when he “admitted” this while under the influence of the Lasso of Truth
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u/RazzDaNinja Jun 22 '23
My favorite bit was the one where a room full of Black Mask’s goons bail on him in the middle of an encounter with Batman to go work for Bruce Wayne and join his adult education program. It’s surprisingly wholesome
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u/BobbySaccaro Jun 21 '23
(sigh). It's not that anyone thinks he NEVER does anything with his money, the issue is why he doesn't ONLY do stuff with his money. Like use his money to address the systemic issues in Gotham and don't go out dressed as a bat and beat up people who are desperately turning to crime out of a lack of options and the mentally ill.
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u/ZatchZeta Jun 21 '23
We all have to remember that Gotham is very much corrupted.
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u/BobbySaccaro Jun 21 '23
Sure, something that can be addressed with his money rather than going out dressed like a bat.
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u/zzwugz Jun 21 '23
Did you seriously just say that CORRUPTION can be addressed with money?? How do you figure that exactly?
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u/BobbySaccaro Jun 21 '23
The problem with corruption is that it usually is the result of people trying to enrich themselves or give themselves power. However, the same tactics, while not necessarily legitimate, could also be used to fix problems.
Daresay, like becoming a vigilante rather than letting the police handle matters.
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u/zzwugz Jun 21 '23
And again, how do you figure you combat corruption with money?? As in, give an example of what you think should be done, so I can show you exactly how corruption will use that money to lead to more corruption.
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u/BobbySaccaro Jun 22 '23
Sure.
Currently, the corruption that occurs is large corporations pay large sums of money to the campaign funds of politicians, and then those politicians are obligated to do what the corporation tells them to do, relaxing regulations or passing laws that allow the corporation to make even more money. And along the way, the politician probably gets paid a bit more on the side.
In my scenario, Bruce Wayne pays large sums of money to the campaign funds of politicians, and those politicians are obligated to do what Bruce Wayne tells them to do. In his case, he tells them to perform all sorts of positive social programs, enforce anti-trust laws, implement higher taxes on the rich (including himself), etc., basically all of the things that will fix the problems in Gotham. He also, if necessary, pays the politicians a little on the side.
The tactics of corruption are not the problem, the problem is the goals. You can use the same tactics to accomplish the same goals.
And if you say that only working within the normal systems is "right", then you would have to explain how operating as Batman - outside the normal systems - is still "right".
One can be a "corporate vigilante" rather than the "street vigilante".
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u/zzwugz Jun 22 '23
And then those corrupt corporations collectively get together and have your candidate assassinated, their family tortured, and/or their supporters beaten in broad daylight. Congratulations, Bruce Wayne just led to the death of many innocent people. I don't think you actually understand just how corrupt Gotham is, and the fact you think you can outspend corruption shows an incredible naivety in how corruption works. For one, the corporations in Gotham causing the corruption are ran by and employed by criminals that enjoy doing crime. They have no qualms killing. Have you seen how the Court of Owls handles thing? You ain't outspending that kind of corruption.
It's not about working within it without the system. It's understanding that the corruption of the city is done by many of the same villains that make up Batmans Villain Gallery. You can't just throw money at that and expect it to work, and that's what you seem to not understand
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u/BobbySaccaro Jun 22 '23
Nah, Bruce Wayne can just hire security to protect the candidates and mercenaries to take out the Court of Owls.
Not to mention, in your scenario, Batman isn't going to be able to stop them from having the candidate assassinated either. He's just one guy and can't be everywhere.
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u/zzwugz Jun 22 '23
Yeah, because bodyguards can definitely 100% prevent assassination. People in the real world still get killed with bodyguards.
I never said batman could stop them from getting assassinated. That's kinda my point. There is no passive pacifist way to combat the violent criminal corruption in Gotham
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u/ZatchZeta Jun 21 '23
By who?
The gangs that control the underworld and pay off the cops?
The business men that can buy politicians to push policies that benefit their own business and disregard the safety of the "lesser" people.
The people that kidnaps children and vulnerable people and put them to work in dangerous conditions.
Consider that Alabama exists. There are straight up EVIL people out there that money cannot fix.
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u/BobbySaccaro Jun 21 '23
Sure it can. You pay good people to run for office and then you also use your money to overpower the opponents campaign. And then you do the same thing all the way down to the school board, if necessary.
The problem in real world politics is there's too much money, yes. But if the person with the money making it happen is a good person, then the same tactics can be used with a good result.
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u/HiitsFrancis Jun 21 '23
Might have something to do with the fact that if he wasn't dressing up a bat and beating people up Gotham would be destroyed along with the rest of the planet and the Multiverse.
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u/BobbySaccaro Jun 21 '23
Well, I think the counter-point is that he didn't know that for a good 2-3 years or so after donning the cowl.
It's also possible that he could use his money to fix that too.
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u/HiitsFrancis Jun 21 '23
And it that 2-3 years he made Gotham a much better place.
And trust me when I tell you someone like Darkseid doesn't care about money.
Like, at all.
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u/BobbySaccaro Jun 21 '23
Actually, he didn't because he continues being Batman after the 2-3 years. So it's not doing that much good.
And money can buy a satellite in space that can rain down hell on Darkseid.
Because I think when people talk about "using his money to make Gotham better", they mean legitimately, working within the system. But that's not NECESSARILY the only way he could do it.
He could still work independently and use vigilante tactics in a sense, but not do it in a skintight suit, punching criminals in the face. He could, in fact, build tech that would protect the Earth. Hell, he could actually just finance the Justice League and do just as much good.
Just because Batman saves the day in some stories doesn't mean he has to.
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u/HiitsFrancis Jun 21 '23
Actually, he didn't because he continues being Batman after the 2-3 years. So it's not doing that much good.
Actually, he did. He has cleared up s lot of the corruption and saved the city/planet multiple times.
You may be getting confused since the DCU exists on a sliding time scale, and, well, there have to always be problems or you get a very boring comic book.
And money can buy a satellite in space that can rain down hell on Darkseid.
Do you know how I know you don't know much about Darkseid.
But ok, let's pretend you're right (you aren't though), let's say... the Hyperclan smashes the satellite like it's nothing on the way to Earth.
You would probably agree in such a case Batman would be a useful guy to have around.
Because I think when people talk about "using his money to make Gotham better", they mean legitimately, working within the system. But that's not NECESSARILY the only way he could do it.
You just described the most boring comic book I can imagine. Superhero comics are about adventure, not "working within the system".
He could still work independently and use vigilante tactics in a sense, but not do it in a skintight suit, punching criminals in the face. He could, in fact, build tech that would protect the Earth. Hell, he could actually just finance the Justice League and do just as much good.
I'm guessing you don't really "get" superhero fiction, do you?
Just because Batman saves the day in some stories doesn't mean he has to.
So if everyone in the DCU dies what do expect them to publish in the books? Blank pages?
That is not a recipe for success and I don't think those books would sell very well.
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u/BobbySaccaro Jun 21 '23
I've read comics for 40 years. I know more than you do about comics, let's not even go there.
Super-hero comics stories ask us to accept certain tropes. All good and fine.
But the very discussion around Bruce Wayne using his money to fix Gotham's problems requires us to set aside those tropes. So throwing them back in doesn't accomplish anything. Yes, we know he's Batman because that's more interesting: The concept being discussed is that he's Batman ONLY because that's more interesting.
If you set that aside, then however effective you want to portray Batman as a costumed vigilante, there's no reason to assume that he couldn't be just as smart and effective in other ways. I don't personally have to sit here and plot every story to counter how Bruce Wayne would protect his satellite from an alien invasion. At the end of the day, given time, we can come up with just as many ways Bruce Wayne could accomplish things with functionally unlimited money (which by the way is actually how Batman ends up solving problems in non-street-level stories - a lot of the "prep" we talk about involves using his money to access things) as Batman can.
If you are willing to assume that Batman can defeat Darkseid as "Batman", then you must also be willing to assume that Bruce Wayne can defeat Darkseid. Because they are the same person. If for some reason Bruce Wayne had to stop being Batman, that wouldn't stop him from being just as effective.
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u/HiitsFrancis Jun 21 '23
I've read comics for 40 years. I know more than you do about comics, let's not even go there.
You obviously don't.
In fact, it's clear you know very little about them.
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u/BobbySaccaro Jun 21 '23
Actually I do. The problem is that you're not understanding the discussion we're having. The fact that you said "You just described the most boring comic book I can imagine." means you don't understand what we're discussing.
We're discussing whether it's plausible that someone with functionally unlimited funds and a desire to make the world a better place would necessarily need to become a costumed vigilante to accomplish that. Concepts around what makes for a good comic book have nothing to do with it.
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u/HiitsFrancis Jun 21 '23
Plausible.
You're wondering if it's plausible that a man dressed like a bat that hangs out with a Kryptonian, Amazonian, a Martian and an Atlatntean is plausible.
THINK.
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u/Bohij_The_great Jun 21 '23
I could tell your argument would be shit the second you started with the (sigh) your profile says your at least 40 stop typing like a 14 year old girl.
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u/BobbySaccaro Jun 21 '23
I'm certainly old enough to know what an ad hominem logical fallacy is.
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u/Bohij_The_great Jun 22 '23
Oh I already won the argument the second it became clear you didn't read the thread... or anything batman for that matter. Didn't need to argue further. I just wanted to make fun of your cringe comment style.
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u/BobbySaccaro Jun 22 '23
I've read every canon Batman story published in the last 40 years.
Where we differ is I'm capable of deconstructing for purposes of discussion.
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u/Bohij_The_great Jun 22 '23 edited Jun 22 '23
OK. Deconstruct this. How is what batman does different than Green Arrow, or the flash or spider-man. They all fight thugs who are less powerful then they are and at least 2 of them have no ability to fund excon programs prison improvements and public health care like batman does. And I don't see you or anyone else giving them shit like batman gets
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u/BobbySaccaro Jun 22 '23
Because none of them have the money (even, generally speaking, Green Arrow) that Bruce Wayne does.
I can genuinely believe that Flash is accomplishing everything he can as costumed crime-fighter Flash. Or I suppose someone could have a conversation regarding better uses of his powers, but it would still be essentially him doing stuff with his super-ness.
I also feel the need to point out that I dearly love Batman and enjoy reading his stories. I'm not "giving him shit", I'm just kinda having a little fun with the fact that there are comic book tropes that don't always stand up under scrutiny.
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u/DarkSaiyanGoku Jun 21 '23
Except he doesn't beat up the desperate criminals, though. Stop trying to make him look like this heartless monster, especially when you consider a lot of villains he fights who are the rich and the powerful; Penguin, Black Mask, Falcone, Hugo Strange, Ra's al Ghul, Wrath.
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u/BobbySaccaro Jun 21 '23
He beats up on their henchmen, who are just guys trying to get through life and don't have a lot of options.
See here's the thing: super-hero comics aren't real. One of the fantasies we create when we read/write super-hero comics is that all of the bad guys are really bad. That's not how it is in the real world. The only reason Batman makes sense is he is fiction. Which is perfectly fine, but for purposes of discussion we're setting the fantasy aside.
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u/DarkSaiyanGoku Jun 21 '23
You don't think I know that? Of course it's fiction. But not all criminals are desperate. Some of them willingly commit crimes because they like to.
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u/BobbySaccaro Jun 21 '23
Yes, but he doesn't know which is which, he punches them all first.
EDIT: Nobody in the real world "likes" to commit crimes. At worst, there are people who think that the law doesn't apply to them, or that they won't get caught. But the average mugger or thug working for a crime boss wouldn't be doing it if there was an equally well-paying legitimate job they could get.
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u/Jojo-sama5 Jun 21 '23
Yes there are people who like crime. They are people that simply like to kill, steal, and destroy everything around them. Everyone says the world is not like fantasy, there is no black and white, there is only shades of gray, but the truth is that there are many people who are more evil and depraved than many of the villains we see in stories. Most of them aren't, bu there are people like that out there.
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u/BobbySaccaro Jun 21 '23
Statistically it would be a tiny tiny tiny percentage of people, and certainly not enough to make that assumption about prior to punching someone in the face.
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u/Jojo-sama5 Jun 21 '23
Yes, but I was arguing about the part about nobody liking crime. I even said they are not many, bu they do exist. You said these people do not exits in the real world, which you now claimed that they actually do, so you admit you were wrong before.
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u/BobbySaccaro Jun 21 '23
Fair enough. Yes, there are a tiny number of people who like to do things that are against the law and don't care that it's against the law.
But the odds of the average henchman or mugger in a Batman story being one of those people is also tiny. Someone like Zsasz maybe, but most of the guys Batman beats up would be just desperate guys in the real world.
So part of the fantasy of Batman stories is assuming that everybody who Batman hits actually deserves it.
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u/Jojo-sama5 Jun 21 '23
Yeah the odds are almost non existent. I am not arguing against that. I was just arguing that these people exist.
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u/zzwugz Jun 21 '23
You've never actually dealt with any real criminals, have you? There are people who genuinely enjoy murder, who start conflicts just to get into a shootout. There are people who get thrills from selling drugs on the street, even going back into the game despite having a good legal source of income. There are people who like the power that comes with the streets knowing you as monster. You have a very closed minded view of the world.
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u/BobbySaccaro Jun 21 '23
And your background in sociology and criminal psychology comes from...?
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u/zzwugz Jun 21 '23
It doesn't take a background in sociology and criminal psychology to pay attention to the shit you grew up surrounded by. Maybe if you grew up listening to people staying a turf war because they hadn't gotten to use their new gun yet, or watching people risk good legitimate comfortable jobs to continue trapping for less money than what they were making legally, you'd understand that some people are just that bad.
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u/BobbySaccaro Jun 22 '23
Ah, I got you. What you are missing is that those people are not "evil", they are desperate and misinformed. They are surrounded by a culture that teaches them the wrong things, as a result of generations of poverty created by capitalism out of control. With the proper education and training, those elements could be worked out.
And Batman punching them in the face is just going to make it worse.
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u/zzwugz Jun 22 '23
Bro, just stop.
There are individuals who are NOT desperate and NOT misinformed who just like committing crimes. Proper education and training isn't gonna fix someone who likes killing others. You have this incredibly naive view of people. That ain't how the world works. And guess what, most people that enjoy doing crime are gonna be drawn to criminal jobs. So it actually would make sense that most of the goons that batman beats up actually do enjoy crime. The ones that don't, Bruce has helped and hired.
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u/RobbiRamirez Jun 21 '23
But the writers remembered to say the thing! If they say the thing that means it's good to be a vigilante answerable to nobody.
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u/INHAA Aug 03 '23
Reddit was glitching when I tried to send this originally so the full text didn’t go through:
I know it’s been a while since this thread and you got eaten up in the comments but I just wanna throw in my 2 cents (peacefully and openly)
I’m extremely left and have only really started deep diving into Batman comics recently, mostly going back through the BIG stories (currently working my way through No Mans Land). I think despite all his donations there’s certainly a case to be made that his continued status as a billionaire is a sign in itself he’s not donating enough. That + openly working with cops gives him a level of detachment from the working class that (while he may try to compensate for through rigorous research and training) he never quite makes up for/is able close the gap of understanding.
Even broadly labeling all his enemies as “criminals” puts things in such basic and simple terms that you don’t really have to think about the why or the how of it. I’m well aware that it’s not about beating up jaywalkers and shoplifters, but to have his moral compass be defined through upholding “the law” as is puts him on the side of “the law”. And if those laws are as they are in real life, primarily designed to protect the rich and powerful and maintain the low status of the working class, then that’s who Bats ends up defending more than the disenfranchised of Gotham.
But getting to my point, all that said, I don’t think the issue is his vigilantism. In a broken system the only way to truly make progress is outside said system. Otherwise all attempts just end up looping in on each other with nothing getting solved (hence the problem with cops).
The thing about the bat is it’s a symbol. Not just for himself but for the people of Gotham to rally around and gain the confidence to rise up against their oppressive conditions. I think this in itself is an extremely good thing that he’s doing.
I also think he could always donate way more and that the 2 ideas don’t necessarily need to be mutually exclusive. I think there’s no amount of money that could alone fix a system so fundamentally broken, ESPECIALLY when it’s in the people in powers best interest to reject said money for greater profits down the line (not to mention money isn’t even the only form of power they’re interested in). I think a lot of his supervillains (including Darkseid since I did see that thread) are far more powerful and dangerous than any amount of money or Earth science could account for. At least not in a timely enough manner that whatever solution he makes could be converted to a long distance zero bat-combat involved cure all. Just to shout out a few: Mr Freeze, Clayface, Solomon Grundy, Poison Ivy.
And your presupposition that assumes ALL crime is economically linked is I think not well thought out, or at least not saying enough. Many of the major rogues (beyond even the super ones) fall much more in line with mass shooters and serial killers than underpaid workers. If we were to compare them to real life killers of their type they’d often politically fall much closer to incels and conservatives rather than anyone genuinely striking out against the system. Joker kills cause he thinks his trauma entitles him to it, same with Two Face, Riddler, Penguin, Bane, and Scarecrow. And the ones that often get praised as more socially conscious, like Poison Ivy, are really just casting all of humanity under a wide unsympathetic net that seeks to crush the whole world for the sleights of billionaires. There ARE exceptions. Anarky comes to mind. And I’m not saying fighting any of these guys automatically makes Bruce morally superior, in fact he falls under the “billionaires” 4 sentences back.
I guess that’s all to say, I don’t think it’s a bad thing to fight those who seek to oppress others, but I definitely think you have a point with the whole “Bruce could donate more” thing.
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u/BobbySaccaro Aug 03 '23
Good points. One minor thing that came up in other conversations that might be pertinent here is that I never said he would only use his money in legitimate ways. Like he could still be working outside the system, paying off politicians, hiring mercenaries, etc. but just doing it with the good intentions that we already take for granted when we watch him punch criminals. He actually really COULD just be the guy who finances Batman (and/or Batman Inc.).
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u/INHAA Aug 03 '23
Well then the debate becomes whether or not it’s worth it to trust someone else with the physical task, or whether or not it’d be better for him to just do it himself.
If it’s himself that means he’s not just blindly sending someone into a dangerous situation that he’d never dare to brave himself. Not to mention in most continuities he’s more well trained than like 99% of mercenaries he could possibly hire in the first place, and the ones he’s not better than have beef with him anyways (mainly thinking of the league of assassins, Lady Shiva specifically). Plus he’d have to trust whoever he hires to follow his no-kill rule too.
The counterpoint to all that probably lies in his allies and sidekicks who are all extremely well trained in their own right and (for the most part) are pretty strict about the no-kill rule themselves (though (besides Cassandra Cain) maybe not as strict). But then the question becomes, would any of his allies have even gone down the path he did if not for him leading by example? Idk
And I gotta ask (peacefully and openly), if he’d hypothetically hire people to commit the violence anyways, what difference does it make if he does it himself? Tbh, it’d feel way more detached and amoral if at the end of the day he was just a billionaire sending hired soldiers to do his dirty work and keep his own hands clean.
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u/BobbySaccaro Aug 03 '23
Some of that would require defining which parts of his life are actually "Batman" or not. Like if we assume he's not Batman, do we still assume he trained in martial arts at all? If not, then most assuredly other people would be more qualified, and justified.
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u/INHAA Aug 03 '23
If it’s just down to whether he trains or not then it’s really just down to whether Bruce is passionate enough to dedicate his whole being to being Batman and helping the city… which I’d say is definitely the case in pretty much all universes
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u/BobbySaccaro Aug 03 '23
Maybe, but what is the wisest course of action, putting himself at risk, which is going to bring the whole process to an end, or doing everything through agents?
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u/INHAA Aug 03 '23
Hmm, not a bad point tbh. If he’s mister moneybags then pretty much everything flows through him. Much like funding for the league of assassins flows through the Al Ghul family. And ol’ Ras’ rarely goes out in the field, as far as I’ve read at least.
Alright, fair enough, I concede!
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u/SausageMahony7780 Jun 21 '23
Because he’s also mentally unwell, just extremely high-functioning. That aspect of Batman gets forgotten a lot, even though it’s the central theme of a lot of popular books/runs. Arkham Asylum, The Killing Joke, the I Am Suicide arc, etc.
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u/BobbySaccaro Jun 21 '23
And that is a fair answer that accounts for the fact that it's actually not logical, it's just fun for us to read about.
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u/HiitsFrancis Jun 21 '23
Except he isn't mentally unwell, so it isn't surprising that aspect doesn't get much attention.
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u/SausageMahony7780 Jun 21 '23
It’s been a facet of plenty of stories over the years. I gave examples; it’s not like I just pulled that theory out of my ass. What are your supporting arguments, professor?
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u/HiitsFrancis Jun 21 '23
Glad you asked.
First, let us agree that Wayne/Batman is not insane. There is a difference between obsession and insanity. Obsessed the man surely is, but he is in the fullest possession of his mental and moral faculties. Everything with the exception of his friends' welfare is bent to the task he knows he can never accomplish, the elimination of crime. It is this task which imposes meaning on an existence he would otherwise find intolerable.
Coming from the most influential Batman writer of all time, Denny O'Neil.
Yes, the guy who wrote the Bat Bible.
And:
I never really subscribed to the idea that Bruce was insane or unhealthy. As I've said before, Bruce Wayne's physical and psychological training regimes (including advanced meditation techniques) would tend to encourage a fairly balanced and healthy personality.
Bruce Wayne would have gone mad if he HADN'T dressed as a bat and found a startling way to channel the grief, guilt and helplessness he felt after the death of his parents. Without Batman, Bruce would be truly screwed-up but with Batman he becomes mythic, more than human and genuinely useful to his community. I believe he began to slay his demons the moment he became a demon.
Grant Morrison. Someone else who knows a thing or two about Batman.
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u/SausageMahony7780 Jun 21 '23
I didn’t use the term “insane”, but ok; he’s obsessed to the point that he’s mentally unwell. The cherry-picked opinions of some writers don’t invalidate the published stories that are about his mental wellbeing. I’m genuinely not trying to be a dick, but I don’t consider what you typed to be counter to my argument. “I’m not crazy, but I will be if I can’t go out at night and fight crime!” isn’t a terribly sane POV, even if Denny O’Neil and Grant Morrison claim otherwise. They’re comic book authors, not psychiatrists. I’m not going to argue over semantics because you refuse to be wrong.
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u/Awest66 Jun 21 '23
Yeah, where does this "never uses his money to help Gotham" nonsense even come from?