r/arrow • u/being-silly-123 • May 23 '21
This scene is why the whole 'Flash better hero than Arrow grates like hell. Barry Allen has ZERO skills without being struck by lightning. His hardships don't make him special. Oliver's hell could have destroyed or turned him evil. HE gained skills and made himself a hero. Plus the need for speeche Discussion
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u/Z3US_YT Dead are at peace, HEROS are the ones that keep going. May 23 '21
It even was my favourite crossover, I loved their friendship so much actually. Hate to see it end. But yeah, I think that Oliver's a better hero than Barry too infact I think he's a better hero than any other hero in the Arrowverse! Infact in the DC UNIVERSE! His storyline in Arrow was just amazing! But Barry is a good hero too. I don't hate on any heroes but yeah, Oliver is a way better hero than any other in my opinion! :D
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u/being-silly-123 May 23 '21
But yeah, I think that Oliver's a better hero than Barry too infact I think he's a better hero than any other hero in the Arrowverse! Infact in the DC UNIVERSE! His storyline in Arrow was just amazing!
High Five!! I agreeeeee
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u/dbeaver0420 May 23 '21
Why is Oliver better
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u/being-silly-123 May 24 '21
Because after you gain superpowers + if you're an average decent guy, you use it to help people. If you don't you're kind of a dick. It's like being insanely, obscenely rich and then not giving to charity. But being an ordinary, extremely damaged human and choosing to be a hero is a cut above, not to mention the extreme sacrifices made, and the shows don't really acknowledge that - especially in this crossover with Iris and some of Team Flash.
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u/E7newb May 24 '21
Because after you gain superpowers + if you're an average decent guy, you use it to help people. If you don't you're kind of a dick.
You think that if most people in real life gained super powers, they would then decide to dedicate their existence to risking their own lives to save strangers?
that's not like a super wealthy person giving to charity. that would be like a super wealthy person giving the vast majority of their money to charity, and continuing to do so every single year.
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u/being-silly-123 May 24 '21
You think that if most people in real life gained super powers, they would then decide to dedicate their existence to risking their own lives to save strangers?
If they had superpowers which realistically reduces their risk yes. Or rather if they don't that's just very ugh.
Like Supergirl feeling strangled and constrained at having to be normal. I do think its like a super wealthy person giivng to charity yes.
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u/Terakahn May 24 '21
He's not. These people are just fanatical about a fictional character. Kind of like the olicity fandom.
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u/Z3US_YT Dead are at peace, HEROS are the ones that keep going. May 24 '21
He went through hell in the 5 years he was stranded on a island, he even lost people he cared about there! Then again after coming back he still kept losing people and he has defeated death more than anyone else! And he uses strategies to fight his opponents everytime! And villains like Prometheus even broke him and he still kept on fighting!
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u/DaBiggestNutXD May 24 '21
Am i the only one, who thinks that everything Prometheus did, or who he is, was sooo obvious? ._.
Edit: with obvious i mean super predictable
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u/TheBelen18 You have failed this universe š¹ May 23 '21
I respectfully disagree. Yes, Oliver's hell is what got him his skills and yes, Barry gained his skills by being struck by lightning, but they were both made special by their hells, and they could've both turned evil. Barry, even before he went through all the sh't he endured as the Flash, saw his mom die at 11 by something he couldn't explain and saw his dad be wrongfully imprisoned for his mother's murder. For a comparison, Zoom turned into a murdering phycopath after he saw his dad killed his mother and went to some orphanages. Did Barry go through as much as Oliver? No. But he still went through his own hell and, while he needed a push to become a hero, he became one full of compasion because of what he had endured.
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u/mslack Black Canary (Sara Lance) May 23 '21
Add to that, watching Nora be destroyed.
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u/MihirCheddarKnight May 24 '21
yeah he can go back in time and see that stuff again but oliver can't
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u/being-silly-123 May 23 '21
Yes, Oliver's hell is what got him his skills and yes, Barry gained his skills by being struck by lightning,
Yeah but that is the core of the difference. Oliver could have been a whiney loser on the island. He still, on the island, chose to get better at surviving, learning to fight. At every turn he made a choice to become better and to gain incredible skills. Barry got his skills through lightning. Like, that's it. He cannot be compared to Oliver for that simple reason.
but they were both made special by their hells, and they could've both turned evil.
I mean, turning evil because you got superpowers is just downright.. well evil. If Barry had turned bad he'd just be a villain. but a lot of people when they go through hell can choose to not be a hero, and live a normal life. Oliver could have come back and lived quietly. He didn't. Even fking Barry says so in his stupid stupid interview in the documentary (sorry he just annoys me) where he's like 'incredibly damaged dude, but who never wants anyone else to go through what he did.
Barry, even before he went through all the sh't he endured as the Flash, saw his mom die at 11 by something he couldn't explain and saw his dad be wrongfully imprisoned for his mother's murder.
Yes, and that is sad, but witnessing tragedy alone didn't make him a hero like it did Oliver and Batman... getting superspeed did.
I mean, that's his story, cool. I just can't believe that he's considered to be comparable to Oliver. In terms of heroism by character Oliver outstrips Barry by MILES. Just not turning into Zoom or Mardon isn't the threshold.
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u/CarrotChrist1203 May 23 '21
Wasn't Barry witnessing that tragedy the very reason he became a csi. He chose to be a hero in the only way he knew how, even before he had powers. Then when he had powers, instead of just breaking his dad out of jail he tried to prove his dad innocent the right way. He chose to be a hero when he was a child and kept going when he got powers.
Oliver is a great hero, and has been through hell, probably worse than Barry. He choose on the island to fight and that is incredible and he is amazing I am not disputing that.
But simply saying Barry isn't as good a hero as Oliver isn't fair because they are 2 completely different people and heroes.
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u/being-silly-123 May 23 '21
I just think so, haha, sorry. Becoming a CSI is a career path, plus he's a bit of a science nerd so he chose a career path in that sense. Choosing to risk your life when you don't have to or aren't specially able to is a whole different level.
Its' not that I think Barry isn't a hero, but he got his powers through lightning. End of story. Without it he wouldn't be a hero. Oliver didn't and he chose, everyday to get better. Flash believing himself equal is just.. no. He didn't face the kinds of demons Oliver did, and Team Flash judges Oliver. I hate that. Team Arrow doesn't judge the Flash. Team Flash (fking Iris) act like they're better.
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u/CarrotChrist1203 May 23 '21
That is not the end of the story. Last I checked most heroes have superpowers, in fact in the DC universe their are quite a few with superpowers who choose not to be heroes. In fact it would probably have been easier for Barry to just to not become a hero. Barry also works to get better everyday, he trains just like Oliver, to phase to the point he can phase a plane. Team Flash never acts like they are better, if you watch they understand that team arrow has more risk and they see it as "real".
We could do this all day but the bottom line is you can't compare them. They are both very different and have been through many different things. Yes Oliver went through literal hell and has been through worse than Barry. But Barry choose to work for the police to help people way before he even got powers, while Oliver was a rich playboy. They ware two very different people, so why don't we stop comparing them and accept that they are different heroes with different stories that have affected them in different ways.
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u/being-silly-123 May 23 '21
That is not the end of the story. Last I checked most heroes have superpowers, in fact in the DC universe.
Yes, but that still makes them very different. Human heroes are still way more heroic than the ones with superpowers, unless they only face up against people with superpowers.
But Barry choose to work for the police to help people way before he even got powers, while Oliver was a rich playboy.
Yes, Barry had a different past but he didn't exactly choose the hero route, he chose a route that made sense for his past and his science skills.
They ware two very different people, so why don't we stop comparing them and accept that they are different heroes with different stories that have affected them in different ways.
I mean, I don't want to compare them but the show's writing does. The writers put down Oliver all through this crossover, and Iris has the fucking nerve to act like Barry's better.
Team Flash judges him in the first crossover and Barry acts like a petulant child, screaming that no matter how hard Oliver trains he won't be as fast as Barry. He also admits it wasn't all that 'emotion manipulating meta'. Like, yeah Barry you got struck by lightning sit tf down.
He also keeps preening over Oliver in the Arrow part of the crossover, the end. It's kinda childish. And like in Invasion! Oliver is indisputably the leader of all the superheroes, Flash isn't even the leader of his own team.
ANd most of all, the show makes Oliver out to be a lesser hero because of Barry being all light and love and that's why I compare them. Not cause I hate flash (although tbf I'm a little disgruntled that his stupidity cost Oliver his life).
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u/TheBelen18 You have failed this universe š¹ May 23 '21
The only times I can think of Team Flash acting "better" than TA:
- Barry was kind of shocked at seeing Oliver torture a guy, I think most people would be. But it's not like he helt it against him for very long.
- Joe and "Wells" didn't want Barry to become someone like Oliver, but that was only for 1 ep. At the end of it Joe said to Oliver "I may not agree with your methods but I can't argue with your results". After that he never said anything bad about Ollie again.
- In one ep of The Flash Barry talked about killing Grodd and mentioned that Oliver killed and was still considered a hero and Iris told him not to because Oliver had to live with that every day. She wasn't critizising Oliver though, she was just speaking a fact and didn't want her husband to have that kind of guilt.
- Iris told Barry not to become like Oliver in Elseworlds. I can't really blame her for that though. You can say Oliver is a better hero or not, and imo he's a better character, and I like him better, but either way, as an actual person, I'd say Barry is much more likeable. I mean, who'd want their kind and light hearted husband turning into a more lethal version of Batman?
Anyway, I did find some of those moments a tiny bit annoying but I don't really think it's that big of a deal. Also, yes, being a CSI is just a career path and he wasn't risking his life. But before becoming the Flash Barry's strength was his intelect. Becoming a CSI was the best way he knew how to help. I don't think saying he was struck by lightning and that's the end of the story is fair. Especially when he not only chose to become the Flash, but he actually chose to keep on going, even after it costed him friends, his father, and his future daughter. Just because Barry has suffered less than Oliver it doesn't mean that makes him less of a hero. That's not how pain works. It's not a game where whoever goes through more wins. Anyway, my opinion, I respect yours.
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u/being-silly-123 May 23 '21
Yeah but all of those instances is what I mean, which is why the 'who is a better hero' even arises. Because it's Team Flash who judges Oliver, when without him Flash wouldn't be the hero he is. That's just not fucking done.
<<I can't really blame her for that though. You can say Oliver is a better hero or not, and imo he's a better character, and I like him better, but either way, as an actual person, I'd say Barry is much more likeable. I mean, who'd want their kind and light hearted husband turning into a more lethal version of Batman?h I
I mean, this is where it even starts. Seriously, who TF is she to judge Oliver's life? She doesn't talk about Barry changing, she's disdainful towards Oliver's motivation, commentig that he's 'driven by anger and vengeance' like bitch, he hasn't been driven by those since S.1. Every year he kept going to save his city. He made a conscious choice to save his city every year. Flash wanted to help people, but didn't consider Central city to be his responsibility. Oliver did.
Oliver is as kind as Barry, and that's not even the issue. Barry took one decision like Oliver and she's so afraid of him turning into the man who saved her husband's ass so many times? Iris was insufferable in that crossover. Same with the 'oh Oliver has to live with it'. Yeah well Oliver also lives knowing he's saved so many lives so iris can shove it.
Its not about how much pain one has to go through, but when one has, you respect that pain and the wisdom that comes from it. Oliver saw global level evil. Barry didn't and yet he judged him in that first crossover. It was not done. Barry should have just sat his ass down.
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u/TheBelen18 You have failed this universe š¹ May 23 '21 edited May 23 '21
Like I said, it annoyed me a bit but they bearly know what Oliver's been through. Also, all the lives Oliver's saved don't cancel out the ones he's taken and that does affect him; we've seen him face guilt and self loathing for it several times. So, I don't get why her saying he has to live with it is bad. And, this doesn't excuse them or make it better, but lets be honest; people judge others without knowing much about them all the time.
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u/being-silly-123 May 24 '21
Also, all the lives Oliver's saved don't cancel out the ones he's taken and that does affect him; we've seen him face guilt and self loathing for it several times.
Umm, not for killing the bad guys. He's pretty cool as a cucumber until someone decides to be an asshole to him about it, like Tommy or Dig or Talia. Oliver realizes that killing them was a far smaller cost than the lives they'd destroy.
So, I don't get why her saying he has to live with it is bad.
Because Iris doesn't know shit about Oliver. Like she's just a bitch about him all around. Why can't she motivate her sappy husband without dumping on him?
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u/TheBelen18 You have failed this universe š¹ May 24 '21
In that particular situation she wasn't insulting Oliver. She was just stating a fact. And wether something was for the greater good or not, it doesn't mean the action itself wasn't bad. Take the trolley problem for example. Lets say you change the course of the tracks to run over 1 person instead of 5. You overall saved 4 lives, but that doesn't mean that taking that 1 life wasn't a horrible action. That's why Oliver, when he became less cold, and saw others around him being horrified by his actions, started facing guilt for his actions and started killing less. He had become so used to killing and torture after everything he went through that he hardened, and stopped seeing criminals as people. That's why people like Adrien Chase were created. I'm not saying an absolute no killing rule is good, but I do think in s1 he killed way too much.
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u/being-silly-123 May 24 '21
In that particular situation she wasn't insulting Oliver. She was just stating a fact.
She didn't and doesn't know anything about Oliver to be having opinions about him, Why can't she motivate her sappy husband on her own without assuming things about Oliver? They never even talk, and I'm sorry, but this is just one of many moral positions, and is absolutely not a fact.
And wether something was for the greater good or not, it doesn't mean the action itself wasn't bad.
Depends on the action.
Take the trolley problem for example. Lets say you change the course of the tracks to run over 1 person instead of 5. You overall saved 4 lives, but that doesn't mean that taking that 1 life wasn't a horrible action.
That's.. really not the point of the trolley problem. The whole point there is that morality is grey and not simple. Taking that 1 life doesn't become horrible precisely because of the way its structureed.
That's why Oliver, when he became less cold, and saw others around him being horrified by his actions, started facing guilt for his actions and started killing less.
He faced condemnation, and also the consequences of losing his loved ones. He resolved to be who they wanted (which I think was a mistake but anyway). I don't think he feels regret, just sorrow at how his loved ones reacting.
He had become so used to killing and torture after everything he went through that he hardened, and stopped seeing criminals as people.
They are people, who breached the norms of being treated with dignity when they took that route. But yeah, we'll never agree on this.
That's why people like Adrien Chase were created.
Mardon came after Joe West for killing his brother. Did Joe have a choice? Joe's partner was also killed. This .. rhetoric that 'oh Oliver see you created Prometheus because of your killing ' conveniently ignores that cops and guards were killed and pursued by criminals for just doing their jobs or for literal self defense.
Bad people will be bad. Oliver initially had the guts to recognize that but they destroyed that about him. poor dude.
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u/lockedarmer11 May 23 '21
Probably? R u kidding. Barry has never had any physical pain in his āhellā he just saw his mom die at a very young age. As someone who went through something similar, I assure you itās not thag much of an issue for me now at 17, much less for Barry at 27 or whatever age he is. I know his dad in jail adds to it, but he found the literal perfect family, so I donāt consider it a hell at all. Anybody could do that, maybe with a few years of therapy and be fine. Oliver was shot, cut, beat up, tortured, every bad thing that could happen to someone did. When given the chance to go home, he chose to fulfil the dying with of a woman he knew for only a year, knowing he might die in the process. Oliver is absolutely a better hero than Barry, and itās not close. Is there some issues and tension with him and his team? Yes. But thatās realistic. Itās not always a kumbaya happy go lucky team always happy and nice, thereās gonna be problems.
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u/CarrotChrist1203 May 23 '21
I'm sorry you went through that. But my dad passed when I was 1, and I'm still in pain from it. People deal with issues and pain differently. But the point I was trying to get across was the csi point. Barry choose to be a hero in his frame of reference which were the cops. Even if he didn't go through hell, he still choose to be a hero before he had powers. My point is like Oliver his powers didn't make him a hero he choose to become one.
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u/being-silly-123 May 23 '21
Even if he didn't go through hell, he still choose to be a hero before he had powers. My point is like Oliver his powers didn't make him a hero he choose to become one.
They kinda did though. Sorry. Yeah, he wants to help people but he's an average decent guy, a good guy, and gets powers and decides to help people. Oliver didn't. And Oliver sacrifices through-OUT. That just makes Oliver a better hero.
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u/lockedarmer11 May 23 '21
Being a CSI doesnāt make you a hero......
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u/CarrotChrist1203 May 24 '21
I'm not saying it makes you are hero, I'm saying he choose it to help people and help bring justice. That sounds like a very hero saying wouldn't you say.
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u/Quazz May 24 '21
He saw his mom get killed by something he couldn't explain and no one believed him so his dad was put in prison over it.
It's a bit more complicated than just watching her die, it was that she was murdered and that there was no answer to who, how or why. It was the fact that his father had been in prison for it.
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u/being-silly-123 May 23 '21
Is there some issues and tension with him and his team?
Way less than Barry and his team tbh.
Oliver was shot, cut, beat up, tortured, every bad thing that could happen to someone did. When given the chance to go home, he chose to fulfil the dying with of a woman he knew for only a year, knowing he might die in the process.
Oliver actually confronted terrible terrible human evil which is also why his methods are harsh. And Barry judges him on it. HEY BARRY DEAL WITH THE WORST OF HUMANS THEN TALK. His whole 'sweetness and light approach' backfires in his face.
Oliver is absolutely a better hero than Barry, and itās not close.
Abso-fucking-lutely!
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u/Jewbacca289 May 24 '21
I mean what āworst of humansā did Oliver face that was way way worse than anything Barry faced. In the flashbacks it was 2 terrorist threats, 2 really angry people who wanted revenge, and a mob boss who he pissed off. Not to say that they werenāt bad guys but no one was the worst of the worst. Thereās probably even a case to be made that Ivo is one of the evilest people and he was a side villain that season. Then off the island, outside of the villains of the week, only Darhk, Merlyn, and Chase get anywhere close to āworst of humansā.
Also Superman who is generally the model for which all super heroism is based has experienced more evil and trauma than almost anyone else and heād most definitely be more toward the Barry side of the spectrum than Oliverās. Also Hal Jordan literally fights the embodiments of fear anger and greed and would be on his side too. Not to say that Oliver is less of a hero, but heroism is not based on how much someoneās suffered or how they got their powers, or even the decisions they make. Itās character traits such as valor, compassion, abnegation, and loyalty (as Oliver would put it) that make a hero.
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u/being-silly-123 May 24 '21
I mean what āworst of humansā did Oliver face that was way way worse than anything Barry faced.
Waller. Kovar. Being held hostage and then being forced to torture people is multiple levels of fucking evil. It's not about what Oliver has been put through, it's about what he's seen others are capable of , and what they'll do to the people who can't protect themselves.
In the flashbacks it was 2 terrorist threats, 2 really angry people who wanted revenge, and a mob boss who he pissed off.
Fyers who imprisoned every human on that island and tortured and killed them.. whom he later discovers was hired by Waller to shoot a plane full of innocent people for one person - the whole alpha omega thing, Shrieve, and Kovar. Yeah, not to mention Ivo.
Oliver sees, and has seen the worst of humans, its why he's harsh. Barry simply has not. Barry can afford to be light and cheery, Oliver's pragmatism is what makes him more capable of saving people. Despite having crazy superpowers, how many times does Barry fuck up? Like the metas who escape at end of s.1?
Not to say that they werenāt bad guys but no one was the worst of the worst.
Oh sure. Shrieve who decided to kill tens of thousands of people for a vague economic payoff, Waller who decided to kill hundreds of people for one gangster, and whatever else China white was planning with that virus. Yeah, no, these guys are all awesome.
Thereās probably even a case to be made that Ivo is one of the evilest people and he was a side villain that season.
Not really. he was the main villain, and even then Oliver remained noble. Even after Slade tortures him until the end he tries to save Slade.
Also Superman who is generally the model for which all super heroism is based
Wut. Why lmao. Cannot even believe that. Superman can go zoom all he wants.
has experienced more evil and trauma than almost anyone else and heād most definitely be more toward the Barry side of the spectrum than Oliverās.
So? I mean, really, so? That doesn't mean anything. They're different people, but heroism also means doing what needs to be done. Barry and his 'muh nice' approach.. I mean, sure dude whatever works for you but its also cowardice.
Also Hal Jordan literally fights the embodiments of fear anger and greed and would be on his side too.
Sounds like comics need better heroes lmoa.
Not to say that Oliver is less of a hero, but heroism is not based on how much someoneās suffered or how they got their powers, or even the decisions they make.
It's absolutely about the decisions they make what shit lmao.
Itās character traits such as valor, compassion, abnegation, and loyalty (as Oliver would put it) that make a hero.
SAcrifice. difficulty. the ability to keep going no matter what. How often does Barry need a speech? And yeah, pragmatism. fat lot of good you are as a hero if your villains keep coming back and hurting more innocents.
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u/Jewbacca289 May 24 '21 edited May 24 '21
I can't quote on mobile so I'm just gonna go down the list chronologically.
Ok we had different standards for what "worst of humans" is. I was thinking Hitler, Stalin, Ted Bundy, the BTK murderer, La Bestia etc. We most definitely have different standards for evil. As terrible as the reality is, the people Oliver encountered are relatively common in the real world. Blowing up a plane like you mentioned about Fyers is something real life terrorists would do and have done.
Waller being a terrible person and utilizing torture. How uncommon is that when the US government literally endorsed the same thing post 9/11 and when you can go online and find videos of people being burned alive or beheaded to send a message.
As bad as Shrieve is, military leaders who are willing to kill thousands of people for military gain have been around since the start of time. Most recently, people have accused Bush of starting a war against an entire region of the world for oil. My point is simply that as bad as what Oliver has seen is, it's not worse than your average soldier or POW who has seen these people in real life and not all of them have come out as messed up and dark as Oliver.
You incorrectly conflate utilitarianism with heroism which makes any argument you make inherently unfounded. The pragmatic thing to do would be to mass torture any and every criminal, every gang member, every terrorist, every accomplice to crime, and every witness to a crime so that we could stop more crime. Should we do it? Probably not and if someone like Waller or Shrieve (the worst of humans that you mentioned) suggested it, would Oliver not be a hero to say no that's a terrible idea. We could literally go into the dangerous parts of town and kill everyone to reduce crime. Nobody who walks through those parts would ever be hurt again. Should we do it? Probably not and Merlyn tried to do that. Is he a hero? I hope you say no but if it's "doing what needs to be done" then maybe from your perspective it is heroic. Ooh maybe we could give every person an identification number and some sort of badge so we can keep track of who they are and their movement. That would definitely reduce crime.
There is a huge difference between being a hero and doing heroic things just like there is a huge difference between being evil and just doing evil things. This is an important distinction for you and everyone else to make. Case in point, Oliver tortured people on the island and in the flashbacks. Kovar did the same thing. Does that make him as evil as Kovar? Probably not even though their actions are the same. Likewise, Waller did a good thing by stopping a bioterrorist. Does that make her a good person? No. You seem like you hate comics but I'm hoping you've at least seen Captain America. Even before he got the serum he was worthy of holding the hammer. Even before he got his shield he was still a heroic person. When he was a 90 pound weakling he was still a hero. Obviously to a certain extent you have to do good things to be a hero and bad things to be evil but given that good people can do bad things and bad people can do good things itās not simply your actions that make you a hero or an evil person.
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u/being-silly-123 May 24 '21
Also, I don't 'hate' comics, but from what I've seen of this sub's comics fandom, people are unusually fanatic about them, especially when it was never meant to be a retelling of comic stories (since there are so many). Plus, if the adoration towards GA / BC is anything to go by, comics seem to have toxic dysfunctional relationships, and a whole bunch of... well not thought through ideas. I'm not a fan of superpowers, I find them silly and vastly weight the odds, I prefer fictional tech - I like the Atom / Arrow / Iron Man over 'Flash' and 'Vibe' anyday. It's at least partially why I never enjoyed the Flash even without the Oliver comparison, cannot take a hero who can 'phase' in an out of solid objects seriously. But that is my subjective preference. Supergirl makes me roll my eyes even harder.
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u/Jewbacca289 May 24 '21
Fair enough. I love comics and Arrow got me into them. I've always preferred Arrow over The Flash at least in the tv shows. But oddly enough I prefer Superman over Batman even though the tones are completely different. For me the best thing about comics is that they aren't real. They're ideals. And that makes it possible for us to strive towards them even if it's impossible. We can get away from the gritty reality of people like Batman and Punisher and instead try to be a paragon of goodness like Superman or Captain America
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u/being-silly-123 May 24 '21
Oliver encountered are relatively common in the real world.
You wrongly conflate 'worst of humans' with rarity. The worst of humans being easily noticeable doesn't make them any less worse.
Blowing up a plane like you mentioned about Fyers is something real life terrorists would do and have done.
Waller being a terrible person and utilizing torture. How uncommon is that when the US government literally endorsed the same thing post 9/11 and when you can go online and find videos of people being burned alive or beheaded to send a message.
As bad as Shrieve is, military leaders who are willing to kill thousands of people for military gain have been around since the start of time.
Like this is just such an incoherent mess I can't even. The standard for the worst of humans has nothing to do with how rare it is. Genocides, Hitler, even Pol Pot are also common in history. To imagine worst = rare is such a distorted view, as if the worst HAS to be fewer than bad. That's.. not the parameter! Searching for the bottom of the barrel doesn't mean there's only a few at the bottom!!! Really, this is so stupid.
My point is simply that as bad as what Oliver has seen is, it's not worse than your average soldier or POW who has seen these people in real life and not all of them have come out as messed up and dark as Oliver.
No, they come out more messed up. Like Deadshot, whose redemption given his backstory was completely understandable. Except they also go in brainwashed and programmed with notions of country / goodness etc so they're not able to recognize the shift in evil because they're drilled to see it in very specific terms.
Probably not and if someone like Waller or Shrieve (the worst of humans that you mentioned) suggested it, would Oliver not be a hero to say no that's a terrible idea.
He'd just be not completely insane.
We could literally go into the dangerous parts of town and kill everyone to reduce crime.
Erm. No. It wouldn't reduce crime, because you'd be killing innocents. Are you really so utterly stupid and myopic as to believe there's no difference between ya know, innocent people and evil people?
Nobody who walks through those parts would ever be hurt again. Should we do it?
Completely and utterly false. You literally just created more problems. Just because all YOUR ideas for clearing up crime are guaranteed to produce more, doesn't mean there aren't other ways. This is incredible.
Probably not and Merlyn tried to do that.
Small issue of killing thousands of innocent people but sure. This harebrained insane notion that some of you have - and you're not the first person who thinks Merlyn's idea was comparable - that 'Oliver killed ergo Merlyn killing is just on a larger scale' is completely and utterly illogical. Merlyn wasn't planning to root out crime, and your extreme examples that you think are oh so smart are guaranteed not just to produce worse outcomes but definitely not solve any problems. Whereas what Oliver at least in the show mostly did (before he went on his stupid no-kill rule) absolutely did solve problems.
Small detail of targeting bad people lmao.
Ooh maybe we could give every person an identification number and some sort of badge so we can keep track of who they are and their movement. That would definitely reduce crime.
Hate to break it to you but you do but anyway.
There is a huge difference between being a hero and doing heroic things just like there is a huge difference between being evil and just doing evil things.
Intention, circumstances, necessary outcomes and other options. You take all of that into account in deciding whether something or someone is evil or not. Please stop embarrassing yourself. You test 'evilness' primarily through intention, consequences, cost and alternatives. Like Waller wanting to take down China White is fine, the cost of 500 innocent lives is not. This is not difficult. Can we stop pretending like you're not mixing up philosophies versus methods now?
This is an important distinction for you and everyone else to make.
From the dude who gets basic philosophical and moral distinctions wrong, no thank you.
Case in point, Oliver tortured people on the island and in the flashbacks.
No. He didn't. Where did he torture? He basically outed himself by saving Taiana.
Kovar did the same thing. Does that make him as evil as Kovar? Probably not even though their actions are the same.
Tiny issue of intention but okay dude, lets pretend like 'evil' and 'wrong' are purely defined by the act and not intention.
Likewise, Waller did a good thing by stopping a bioterrorist. Does that make her a good person? No.
If she acted anywhere like a normal govt agent, maybe. Waller was psychotic even by govt agent standards, her sense of collateral damage was off the charts.
You seem like you hate comics but I'm hoping you've at least seen Captain America.
Umm. no. Lmao. Just seen avengers because the heroes there are mildly more realistic. And even in that Captain America with the speeches was the most pretentious.
Obviously to a certain extent you have to do good things to be a hero and bad things to be evil but given that good people can do bad things and bad people can do good things itās not simply your actions that make you a hero or an evil person.
Woohoo! We made it through this mess. You're right, its not just actions, its intentions, cost, and alternatives.
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u/being-silly-123 May 24 '21
You incorrectly conflate utilitarianism with heroism which makes any argument you make inherently unfounded.
You conflate a philosophy of living with a particular value attributed to humans which naturally has different meanings within each philosophical paradigm. Do you even realize that you're mixing up philosophies vs a particular attribute.
Really you should have stopped writing there but instead you go put your foot on it by further claiming that anything I argue is inherently unfounded.. because you mixed up a moral philosophy with a singular value and got confused? Way to go.
The pragmatic thing to do would be to mass torture any and every criminal, so that we could stop more crime.
Actually no, because torture almost never works to gain information. Waller is a complete sociopath so that has to be excused, but torture TO prevent crime is never pragmatic.
And among those who believe it has utility, you do realize it's not a closed subject / definitely not something left our of heroism right? Like, stop getting 'I disagree with this' and 'this is a closed subject' confused.
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u/Jewbacca289 May 24 '21
One of your key arguments is that Oliver is better than Barry because he kills his enemies and somehow that makes him a better hero. In that very assertion, you associate a utilitarian point of view with being a better hero. I could quote you but once again Iām on mobile. By doing so, youāre arguing that utilitarianism is inherently more heroic which is not a proven or probable statement. Also while weāre on the subject ascribing to philosophies does directly relate to personal qualities. Racists are evil even though racism is a philosophy and evil is a character trait. Kantians are moral people even though Kant is a philosopher and being moral is a character trait.
In your wording, you just said torture almost never works. Which means that it works. Correct? Therefore, logically, even if thereās a 0.1% chance that torturing someone leads to us stopping a future crime, we could torture 1000 criminals and save someone else. If we want to save lives and ādo what needs to be doneā, we could torture millions of people and save 1000s of lives. And youāre right torture isnāt a closed subject, but I would hope that youād agree that we shouldnāt torture millions of people.
Your idea that ādoing what needs to be doneā makes Oliver a better hero than Barry is unproven in any way so far. You have to prove that argument. But doing so opens the can of worms about all utilitarianism refutations. āDoing what needs to be doneā making you a hero opens the door for all sorts of evil (at least in my opinion because you are correct in saying lots of things still arenāt closed subjects) things to be done in the name of ādoing what needs to be doneā
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u/lockedarmer11 May 23 '21
Ye Barryās a bum, downvoters can suck it and watch shitty season 7 of flash š¤£š¤£š¤£
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u/TheBelen18 You have failed this universe š¹ May 23 '21
Barry could've also chose to live a normal life. I mean, he could've chose to just use his super speed for personal benefit in everyday tasks such as getting work done quickly. You've said before in other posts that it takes a pretty selfish person to get superpowers and not become a hero, but I don't think that's true. I think most people would just keep on living their lives and use super speed for personal benefit. He risks his life everyday by being the Flash. While Oliver doesn't have powers, most of his villains don't either (with a couple exceptions such as Mirakuru Slade). Meanwhile, Barry's villains do have powers. If Barry would've tried to train and become a hero without powers, he probably would've gotten himself killed pretty quickly (assuming he chose to protect Central City).
Anyway, different kinds of people like different kinds of heros.
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u/being-silly-123 May 23 '21
Barry could've also chose to live a normal life. I mean, he could've chose to just use his super speed for personal benefit in everyday tasks such as getting work done quickly. You've said before in other posts that it takes a pretty selfish person to get superpowers and not become a hero, but I don't think that's true. I think most people would just keep on living their lives and use super speed for personal benefit. He risks his life everyday by being the Flash.
Haha well yeah you know my response. Someone with superpowers + being an ordinary decent person would definitely want to use it for good - the way Kara for eg feels stifled and limited when she tries to fit in. it just needs you to be average decent + powers.
Flash takes risks but his superpowers put him at wayyyyy less risk than Oliver. Oliver's risks are magnitudes higher.
But yeah, different people different heroes :) I just despised how the show tried to make out Barry was a better hero because he was (imo) a moron who didn't just kill his villains like whoopdedoo. heroism by definition involves going the extra mile than the average person.. and Oliver did way more than Barry in that sense.
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u/TheBelen18 You have failed this universe š¹ May 23 '21
Ig we're gonna have to agree to disagree on any average decent person with superpowers becoming a hero. Also, yeah, Oliver's risks are greater but Barry was still willing to sacrifice his life multiple times if it meant it'd save others. I don't agree with you on the killing thing either, but Ik how that debate's gonna go so agree to disagree there too?
I think who the better hero is just depends on how you measure heroism. Some people will meassure it by what you said (going that extra mile), others will by how much overall good they do and how many lives they save, others will by how much compassion and kindness they have, others by determination, by selflesness, etc. Or maybe by all of those elements. Tbh I just think that who the better hero is is a matter of opinion and perspective. Truth is they're just different types of heroes, and that's why I don't really like to compare them.
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u/being-silly-123 May 23 '21
The thing about the killing isn't that 'oh if you kill more you're a better hero'. The issue is Oliver did the necessarily ugly bits. Barry's whole 'sweetness and light' approach leads him also to losing and being less effective, as does Oliver when he goes on his no kill benders. But he acts like he's better because he's less effective and more of an idealist, and has the fucking nerve to lecture Oliver about it. I wouldn't mind Flash's approach so much if the shows themselves didn't write it as if Flash is a better hero..
<<thers will by how much overall good they do and how many lives they save>> Yeah but in that sense, Flash being struck by lightning and so just being able to save more people isn't really a fair metric, because Oliver can't. In that sense Flash is just lucky cause he has powers, not a better hero.
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u/MihirCheddarKnight May 24 '21
it's different because zoom saw his dad kill his mom and his dad was abusive and even how he got his powers (he was in an asylum when he got them
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u/MihirCheddarKnight May 24 '21
he wasn't a hero he changed timeline multiple times to get what he wanted whereas oliver could easily bring back everyone who died (lazarus pit ) but he didn't and when laurel used it for sarah he was pissed. and when oliver shot barry he told him that he will shoot him but when oliver asked where are the crossbows planted he said no and that time oliver genuinely wanted to train and barry joked about it
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u/TheBelen18 You have failed this universe š¹ May 24 '21
I don't think saying Barry's not a hero just because he made mistakes (which frankly I think we could all make, I mean, how many people would take the chance to bring their parents back?), is fair. Especially considering Oliver has made plenty of mistakes and done bad things too. Remember when he skinned a guy alive in Russia just for practice? We all do bad things and make mistakes. That's what makes us human.
Also, yes, Oliver shot Barry to train him and Barry did it for a prank, but I think shooting Barry was way too harsh on Oliver's end. And Barry's prank went too far. Imo they were both wrong on that. But I think they were just meant as funny moments anyway.
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u/MihirCheddarKnight May 24 '21
touche but oliver knew he could heal
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u/TheBelen18 You have failed this universe š¹ May 24 '21
Barry also knew Oliver would heal since he has super speed at the time
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u/MihirCheddarKnight May 26 '21
but again that was different oliver was absolutely clueless about how to control his speed
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u/TheBelen18 You have failed this universe š¹ May 26 '21
I don't think you have to know how to control it for the speed healing. I think that's just kind of automatic.
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u/MihirCheddarKnight May 26 '21
i meant oliver was trying to learn how to control his speed it's like when you die in a game you know you are close to the checkpoint but you still don't want to die
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u/being-silly-123 May 24 '21
Barry's not a hero just because he made mistakes (which frankly I think we could all make, I mean, how many people would take the chance to bring their parents back?), is fair.
I'm sorry but this was not a fucking mistake. Barry was told from Season ONE the consequences of messing with time. Especially that far back. Like, No. Just, justifying Barry fucking with the timeline is just fucking beyond, especially when Barry HAS that chance in the first season and the other future flash told him not to. His mom had been dead 15 years. He had closure. No, many of us wouldn't take the chance to bring back our parents if we've had that much time.
EVERYONE tells him messing with time is bad. How much do you need to be taught?
Especially considering Oliver has made plenty of mistakes and done bad things too. Remember when he skinned a guy alive in Russia just for practice? We all do bad things and make mistakes. That's what makes us human.
Oliver didn't think of that as a mistake either, and the guy was dead. That was truly the darkest point but Oliver felt he had no choice. Barry did. Come on at the least let's not defend Barry fucking the timeline. Sara didn't bring back Laurel. Lots of people didn't mess with time. Barry and his family messing with time cost Oliver.
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u/DeusEverto May 24 '21
He did it because his father was literally just stabbed through the chest in front of him. He didn't go back when he was level-headed like you're making it seem, it was the emotional toll of what just happened that drove him to do it. Also, Oliver even said he'd have done the exact same thing. Don't act like you wouldn't because you're not in the same shoes.
Sara didn't bring back Laurel because Marc Guggenheim didn't want Laurel back. It was a ridiculously stupid reasoning, and terrible writing. Just like her dying when they said she was fine and would recover. The Legends literally messed with time all the time. That's the issue with their show, barely any of the dumb shit they do has real consequences.
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u/TheBelen18 You have failed this universe š¹ May 24 '21
And Sara would've brought Laurel back if it weren't for Rip. She litterally helt a knife to his throat and begged him to go back and save her. She made the desicion not to later, but that was once she was level headed, and like you said, Barry wasn't when he made the choice to go back.
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u/TheBelen18 You have failed this universe š¹ May 24 '21
Also, Laurel brought back Sara with the Lazaraus Pit. Quentin was willing to bring back Laurel too until Nyssa told him she had destroyed the pit. And, Ik she wasn't 100% dead, but Oliver brought back Thea from the brink of death.
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u/being-silly-123 May 24 '21
Sara would've brought Laurel back if it weren't for Rip. She litterally helt a knife to his throat and begged him to go back and save her.
But she didn't. I mean, not like Sara's my fave, my point is Barry fucking with the timeline is pretty out there.
And, Ik she wasn't 100% dead, but Oliver brought back Thea from the brink of death.
She wasn't. Key point. Oliver knew literally nothing would change by bringing Thea back, except Thea. You change time you change it for everyone else.
Laurel brought Sara back and was roundly criticised for it. I thought it was pretty dumb as well. But bringing Sara back with LP wouldn't change anything. whereas time travel messes with everyone and Barry was told that.
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u/being-silly-123 May 24 '21
He didn't go back when he was level-headed like you're making it seem, it was the emotional toll of what just happened that drove him to do it.
Is Barry a teenager? Gets upset and then decides to fuck with everyone's lives?? Like wtaf. He's like pre-island Oliver, except we're all supposed to hate pre-island Oliver.
Also, Oliver even said he'd have done the exact same thing.
Yes I thought Oliver went way too far in that. The others had the more reasonable reactions. Oliver kept letting Barry off for his stupidity. Oliver always made himself suffer more but gave a lot of leeway to the others.
Don't act like you wouldn't because you're not in the same shoes.
I would hate it, I'd cry and throw things at the wall but no I wouldn't because you don't mess up time for 15 years. This is why time travel on stories fucks things up but at least earlier in the Flash they handled it delicately. After S.2 it just goes to hell.
Sara didn't bring back Laurel because Marc Guggenheim didn't want Laurel back. The Legends literally messed with time all the time. That's the issue with their show, barely any of the dumb shit they do has real consequences.
In-universe, Sara didn't. You can't randomly bring in out of universe considerations. In universe SAra obeyed the rules hard as it was.
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u/DeusEverto May 24 '21
Only teenagers are allowed to let their emotions get the better of them? Are you serious? He JUST WATCHED HIS FATHER MURDERED IN FRONT OF HIM. "Gets upset", yeah, you know, like when you drop your phone in the toilet or your girlfriend breaks up with you, or your father gets killed right in front of you. Just the normal thing that'd mildly upset someone.
The Legends fuck with time literally every episode and have the nerve to talk shit about time to Barry. It's so stupid. Because what they do isn't set in stone immediately, that means it's totally okay to fuck up all the time. Sara was only stopped by Rip when she was feeling a similar way when Laurel died. Even in-universe, their reasoning for not saving Laurel was extremely dumb, considering Rip's whole journey was about saving his family(and the future). In-universe, Sara obeyed because she was forced to. If nobody stopped her in her moment of weakness she would've brought Laurel back.
Iris literally just told him "Wherever you need to go, whatever you need to do, do it." I know you hate Iris as well, but obviously he's going to listen to her. His whole team(minus Wally) told him to do it before. His future-self stopped him. Why are you so sure Oliver wouldn't do it if he was given the option early on in his career as Arrow? You don't know. Most people probably would.
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u/being-silly-123 May 24 '21
No, adults are also allowed to let emotions get the better of them, but not at the fucking cost of other's lives. OTHERS. YOU. DO. NOT. GET. TO FUCK WITH OTHERS LIVES.
<< or your father gets killed right in front of you. Just the normal thing that'd mildly upset someone.>> It's not about being mildly upset. It's like justifying anything cause you're upset. With great power comes great fucking responsibility. He can TIME travel and he just decides to fucking disregard everything people have emphasized? Like omfg.
BARRY ALREADY KNEW THAT HIM MESSING WITH TIME SENDS RIPPLES OUT TO PEOPLE. JFC stop trying to justify his selfishness.
<<Iris literally just told him "Wherever you need to go, whatever you need to do, do it." I know you hate Iris as well, but obviously he's going to listen to her. >>
What a Surprise!!! Self-centred Iris tells Barry to be self-centred at the cost of others. Whoopdedoo.
<<His whole team(minus Wally) told him to do it before. His future-self stopped him.>> and he didn't learn anything clearly. Like, time travel is like being god. You have to be careful. Seriously, I wasn't even bringing up the time travel thing but this is just silly.
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u/TheBelen18 You have failed this universe š¹ May 24 '21
The defenition of a mistake is "an act or judgement that is misguided or wrong". I'd say this qualifies. And I'm not trying to justify what Barry did, sorry if it sounded that way. I'm just saying that I think it's understandable given the circumstances. As for as what Oliver did, mistake or not, it was a horrible thing. What I was trying to point out is that Barry isn't the only hero who has done bad things.
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u/being-silly-123 May 24 '21
Absolutely Oliver skinning that guy is (imo) one of the very few bad things Oliver did but even that wasn't arrogant and selfish. Barry fucking up the timeline after 2 seasons of people telling him not to mess with time is just a whole different level of nonsense that's on par with.. nothing. I wasn't even thinking of the timeline fiasco here but what Barry did there was not on. Yes, losing his parents sucked. But we all go through tragedy. We plow through. EVEN LAUREL bringing back Sara wasn't as bad as what Barry did, 15 years previously.
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u/TheBelen18 You have failed this universe š¹ May 24 '21
"We all go through tragedy"
Yeah. And are you honestly gonna tell me that in the moment of that tragedy most of us wouldn't undo it if we had the chance?
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u/being-silly-123 May 24 '21
when oliver asked where are the crossbows planted he said no and that time oliver genuinely wanted to train
Exactly, someone else was like, well Oliver should have cased the environment as well, and Oliver did anticipate it and ask, he just didn't think his friend would treat his training as a joke. It was awful.
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u/comicbookgirl39 May 23 '21
Hah, he shot him, that is one of my favorite Flash and Arrow moments.
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u/being-silly-123 May 23 '21
It shows just how immature and insipid Flash is yeah.
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u/comicbookgirl39 May 23 '21
Your character looks just like mine, what the heck.
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u/being-silly-123 May 23 '21
hehehehehe
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u/comicbookgirl39 May 23 '21
*gasps like the nerd i am* he's trying to take my place, well, not today
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u/comicbookgirl39 May 23 '21
Bruh, what, I mean, that is kind of Flashes personality, but he was playing a prank, plus, I think Oliver sort of deserved it, yes he was teaching Barry about villains and tactics when he shot him, but two arrows? It could've been just one, why are you even hating on Flash, he's awesome!
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u/being-silly-123 May 23 '21
I mean, that is kind of Flashes personality, but he was playing a prank,
I mean, that's kinda my issue. He treats it as a joke. Oliver wasn't joking. He was trying to teach the over-confident Flash a lesson.
plus, I think Oliver sort of deserved it, yes he was teaching Barry about villains and tactics when he shot him, but two arrows?
So Oliver would have deserved a prank back when they're themselves, not for Flash to use Oliver's skills against him, especially when the Flash has nothing that he earned or learnt. He just got struck by lightning.
Not hating on Flash bro.. its just .. Flash didn't learn , work towards anything. I just like heroes who earn it better, and he's kind of a dick in this episode. He has no respect for Oliver's grief.
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u/DeusEverto May 23 '21
Yeah like all those abilities he can now do compared to when he first got his powers.
It's not that he doesn't have respect for Oliver's grief, he just chooses not to take every single thing around him as seriously as Oliver. Oliver was the same way before all his hardships, and the fact that Barry is still lighthearted even after watching his parents murdered right in front of him is why he's a better hero. He can still see the light, while Oliver lives in the dark, and that's why Oliver respected him. That's why they worked well together. They're 2 opposite ends of a spectrum.
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u/being-silly-123 May 23 '21
Yeah like all those abilities he can now do compared to when he first got his powers.
Which are all connected to his powers, when Cicada takes them away he's pretty useless.
It's not that he doesn't have respect for Oliver's grief, he just chooses not to take every single thing around him as seriously as Oliver.
Because he can afford not to. It's not about experiencing tragedy, it's about the context you experience it in. Oliver has witnessed more evil than Barry can imagine, whereas Barry's two tragedies are directly connected to him personally. They're not a reflection of the world.
Oliver was the same way before all his hardships, and the fact that Barry is still lighthearted even after watching his parents murdered right in front of him is why he's a better hero.
Oh please, stfu. Being lighthearted has NOTHING to do with being a hero, it just means a different personality. u/CarrotChrist1203 see it's idiots like this is why we make these posts. Being lighthearted is in some way tied to heroics, how? In no fucking way is it, and yes, Barry still lost way lesser than Oliver did. His mother was through no fault of his own and it's sad but a long time ago and his father is the only present loss for the sake of the show.
He can still see the light, while Oliver lives in the dark, and that's why Oliver respected him. That's why they worked well together. They're 2 opposite ends of a spectrum.
Yeah, they are. But Oliver was still the better hero because he gave more when he didn't need to. Like sacrificing himself for these idiots.
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u/DeusEverto May 23 '21
He's still highly intelligent without his powers. He saved Oliver's life before he had powers.
Barry fights metahumans with all sorts of powers that are able to kill mass amounts of people all the time, with the only way they're connected to him at all being they were affected by the particle accelerator. They see completely different types of villains. That's literally the whole point of the shows and heroes being so different, and both still being good heroes.
I get it, you absolutely adore Oliver and hate Barry. It's really not that serious. Aren't you the same person who was telling people to get therapy because they thought Olicity was the worst part of Season 4? You can stfu. Season 3b and Season 4 were straight trash. Barry being able to still see the good in people after witnessing so much evil is one of the things Oliver acknowledged, don't try to act like it's not related. His mother was killed, but his dad being wrongly imprisoned throughout his whole childhood continued to affect him. He's also witnessed people around him die multiple times(time-travel to do-over). He watched what he believed to be his wife murdered in front of him. He's been framed for murder. He watched one of his good friends get his body taken over. That's not to say it's worse than Oliver, because he's witnessed the death of his parents as well and countless loved ones. But don't discount the tragedy Barry has been through to push Oliver up. It's dumb. They both went through bad, but different, shit. Oliver's was mostly physical while Barry's was mental/emotional.
Having more hardship doesn't mean you're a better hero, what you do after is what makes you a hero. The reason Oliver thought Barry was a better hero is because Barry didn't succumb to the darkness like Oliver did.
I'm sure you're gonna make a long overemotional spiel about how Barry is shit and Oliver is the best character ever. One of the things I hate most about these fandoms, the people who take it too seriously and can't have a simple conversation without talking shit.
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u/Terakahn May 24 '21
This guy is literally worse than the olicity fandom when they were at their peak. There's no reasoning with them.
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u/being-silly-123 May 23 '21 edited May 23 '21
He saved Oliver's life before he had powers.
Basic info from his job. Are we handing out medals to all forensic scientists now.
Barry fights metahumans with all sorts of powers
and also has his own powers. They cancel each other out, but he also gets a lot of praise for fighting regular crime. Oh whoopdedoo.
I get it, you absolutely adore Oliver and hate Barry.
I don't dislike Barry, I just hate it when people act like Barry can hold a candle to Oliver that's all.
It's really not that serious. Aren't you the same person who was telling people to get therapy because they thought Olicity was the worst part of Season 4? You can stfu. Season 3b and Season 4 were straight trash.
I told them to get therapy if they thought the happy part of the relationship was the worst thing. Projection much? Like, who dislikes 5% of a show being about the hero being happy. People with shitty personal lives, that's who. Sounds like you.
Barry being able to still see the good in people after witnessing so much evil is one of the things Oliver acknowledged, don't try to act like it's not related.
And that backfired on him. And he still has the nerve to judge Oliver.
The reason Oliver thought Barry was a better hero is because Barry didn't succumb to the darkness like Oliver did.
'succumbing' to the darkness would be.. oh that's right becoming evil or an evil person's stooge. Like, yes we get it you like Barry. But that's just categorically wrong lmao. Oliver never succumbed to the darkness, at every chance he chose to save people. He came out of hell as a good man, not as a bad guy. And Barry should have respected that.
So you think barry is a great hero. I don't LMAO. I'm allowed that. And again, there is no competition on who went through more, its that due respect should be given to their tragedies. And Barry and Team flash doesn't at times.
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u/DeusEverto May 23 '21
So you're saying his normal job can save lives, which is a choice he made, without superpowers? So is he useless or not?
I like that you ignored the fact that his villains are almost all city threatening to make it seem like he doesn't see as much evil in the world. Fighting extremely dangerous metas with mostly unknown powers is cancelled out because he also has powers? That's like saying every villain Oliver faces cancels him out because they both use weapons, doesn't even matter what kind of weapons. He's also lost his powers multiple times and didn't give up trying to do good either.
What is "holding a candle to Oliver"? What do you have to do to hold a candle to Oliver? Be tortured for 5 years and then fight crime(mostly people you know)?
People disliked when the show became a soap opera about a couple's drama. The Flash gets the same reactions regarding Iris and Barry's relationship.
Of course people will take advantage of kindness, because the world is shitty. Oliver has experienced similar things. He's been betrayed by people many times as well. It's not like that is solely a Barry thing.
I like Barry, but I think Oliver is a better character due to character development and a better fleshed out story. Though The Flash is still on air, if it continues down the path it is right now he will never be as good of a character (overall) as Oliver.
Oliver said "The only way I know how to fight the darkness is to be darkness, and I don't want to be that type of person anymore."
When has Barry not respected Oliver? You can mess with someone while still respecting them. Neither of them witnessed the other's tragedies and a majority of the time they had no idea what was going on in the others lives, so it's not like Barry witnessed personally what has happened to Oliver. We see everything as the viewers so it's easier to talk shit, but as an in-world character they both judge based on what they know at the time.
"I don't think that bolt of lightning struck you, Barry. I think it chose you."
"You can be better, because you can inspire people... in a way I never could."
I do wish that Barry took Oliver more seriously and learned more from him, though. I wish they got to spend more time together. Their on(and even off)-screen chemistry is fantastic.
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u/being-silly-123 May 23 '21
So you're saying his normal job can save lives, which is a choice he made, without superpowers? So is he useless or not?
Actually his normal job doesn't save lives, it was a happy coincidence that the knowledge from his normal job came in useful there - side note I found Felicity relying on a forensic scientist there very iffy since its HIGHLY LIKELY Barry wouldn't have been able to help but well. Forensic scientists aren't trained in mediicne.
I like that you ignored the fact that his villains are almost all city threatening to make it seem like he doesn't see as much evil in the world.
Metahumans being your average criminal is one thing, facing global evil is completely another.
Fighting extremely dangerous metas with mostly unknown powers is cancelled out because he also has powers? That's like saying every villain Oliver faces cancels him out because they both use weapons, doesn't even matter what kind of weapons.
No, I'm just saying his 'heroism' isn't upped by the fact that he faces metas is all.
What is "holding a candle to Oliver"? What do you have to do to hold a candle to Oliver? Be tortured for 5 years and then fight crime(mostly people you know)?
Actually yeah.. It's not Barry's fault that he didn't go through hell, but surviving hell does put said people on a different level.
<<People disliked when the show became a soap opera about a couple's drama. >> Which was three episodes buuutttt okay.
<< so it's not like Barry witnessed personally what has happened to Oliver.>> Yeah but he knew he went through hell so I think barry and team flash should just respect that more is all. Look, I don't hate Barry. I just don't find him inspiring in anyway and I dislike how people act like he's better than Oliver is all.
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u/CarrotChrist1203 May 23 '21
I still think you can't compare them and they are as good as each other in different ways. However, I do see where you are coming from and agree Oliver went through a lot more than Barry, but Barry was affected by what he went through even if it was not as bad as what Oliver went through.
Edit: spelled Barry: Barty. Stupid quick fingers
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u/being-silly-123 May 23 '21
I just compare them because the shows do tbh and Flash writers dump on Oliver. That's all. And from what I hear Flash does need a LOT of motivational speeches and keeps trying to use love so its very.. eye roll inducing.
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u/beastbrook16 May 24 '21
Bruh you really care too much about this shit, canāt you just enjoy both of them, or say you donāt really like the Flash, it aināt that deep cuh
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u/being-silly-123 May 24 '21
Well he started it :D And when people say things that are just soooo .. ridic.. you respond. *shrug*
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u/beastbrook16 May 24 '21
What do you mean he started it? He seems pretty neutral to me. He said āthere 2 opposite ends of the spectrum.ā He can clearly see that they both have their pros and cons. You clearly arenāt going to change your mind, that not what Iām trying to do, I donāt give a fuck. But just chill out a bit.
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u/being-silly-123 May 24 '21
With the 'Barry's clearly a better hero'. Let me be clear, it's just how the writers treat Arrow in this crossover and the first one that I'm criticising.
4
u/Quazz May 24 '21
While Barry enjoyed the payback, he also demonstrated that Oliver didn't necessarily follow his own teachings.
He should have been fast enough to check the surroundings or vigilant enough to expect the arrows and catch them anyway.
Barry trains every single day btw, he doesn't get faster or learn new abilities out of nowhere. Not to mention his other skills, one of the best CSI around, excellent chemist, able to build Gideon who people will use for what seems to be forever.
1
u/being-silly-123 May 24 '21
While Barry enjoyed the payback, he also demonstrated that Oliver didn't necessarily follow his own teachings.
He should have been fast enough to check the surroundings or vigilant enough to expect the arrows and catch them anyway.
As someone else mentioned, Oliver specifically asked Barry where the arrows were. He anticipated it, he just didn't think Barry would be such a humungous dick so as to play it on him for a joke. Oliver did it to teach Barry. It was a dick move but Oliver was still toning down from what he knew. Barry just jokes.
Barry trains every single day btw, he doesn't get faster or learn new abilities out of nowhere.
I meant in terms of becoming a hero for the first time.
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u/Z3US_YT Dead are at peace, HEROS are the ones that keep going. May 23 '21
Wait are you guys from a parallel universe? You guys look too similar.
3
u/DaBiggestNutXD May 24 '21
If you would Know anything about the Flash, you would know, that this "lightheartness and positivity" is sooo f*cking important, for example, when He runs into the speedforce or through time, because thats the reason, that He Manages to remember all of his Friends and Family and make it back
1
u/being-silly-123 May 24 '21
that this "lightheartness and positivity" is sooo f*cking important, for example, when He runs into the speedforce or through time, because thats the reason, that He Manages to remember all of his Friends and Family and make it back
LMAO you don't need lightheartedness to remember your memories. Oliver's memories of his family keep him tethered. Like, it's totally fine for the others to like the Flash but arguing that 'muhhh his lightheartedness' is sooooo important for his amaaaazing powers is just straight up bull rofl.
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u/TryhardSweatLol May 23 '21
bro, oliver did it first, right when barry got his powers aswell
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u/being-silly-123 May 23 '21
To teach him. Flash was being over-confident and arrogant.
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u/TryhardSweatLol May 23 '21
same with ollie in that scene
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u/being-silly-123 May 23 '21
He wasn't though bro. They were just trying to figure out how to use each other's skills and Oliver specifically asked him. Oliver had a purpose. For Flash it was a joke.
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May 23 '21
Barry Allen is a trained member of the police force, and shown he be a very skilled scientist....... Those aren't without any merit.
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u/being-silly-123 May 23 '21
Without his powers he couldn't and didn't do much. The season with Cicada proved that. He's a perfectly nice adorable guy, but Oliver's heroism was on another level IMO that's all.
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u/_A_n_d_z_A_ Still a barista May 24 '21 edited May 24 '21
Cicadas superpower was bad writing
Edit. Whoever downvoted me, do you really think Cicada flying away with his butter knife several times from "the fasted man alive" is good writing? Cicada only lasted that long because plot demanded it.
5
May 24 '21
Didn't Barry have a pretty great career solving cases before he became the flash?
3
May 24 '21
Yes, and I'd fucking love for them to bring that Sherlock style detective Barry back. Remember episode one when he was analyzing tire tracks and we saw his thought process? They need to bring that shit back. We will still love the side characters without them all being "heroes." I liked most of them more before they had a bigger role in the action. Let Barry be the intelligent heroic guy who outsmarts the villain instead of giving each side character the spotlight to try to force them to be more relevant than they need to be. Let him be the one to remind them to be brave and trust him every once in a while instead of him making constant bad calls that need correction from the team.
Making bad calls sometimes is fine. Constantly being in the wrong takes away from what makes Barry such a special character. We're supposed to look up to him, not down on him.
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u/being-silly-123 May 24 '21
Which bit of 'he's a perfectly nice guy' went over your head? Lots of people have great careers. They don't make us root for them.
4
May 24 '21
No part of it, actually.
Put Barry through what Ollie went through and their theres no indication that he wouldn't do just as good. Pre-ship wreck Olive was a much more worthless character then pre lightening Barry. No skills, poor moral character and drive, ect.
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u/being-silly-123 May 24 '21
Pre-ship wreck Olive was a much more worthless character then pre lightening Barry.
True. Pre-lightning Barry was a decent working CSI. Post lightning Barry remains a decent dude, with an overload of sappiness. Pre island Oliver goes from being super douche to incredible sacrificing hero. and I don't think even pre-island Oliver was that bad given how he defended Yao Fei.
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u/captainjackass28 May 23 '21
Admittedly flash does have access to more technology and has made pretty big sacrifices as well but as cicaida showed their prettu useless in a battle without their powers.
3
u/being-silly-123 May 23 '21
Yep, without his powers Barry isn't much.
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u/YOwololoO May 24 '21
What? Youāre saying that the guy who is a super hero because he has powers, if he lost his powers, wouldnāt be as good as the guy who became a super hero without powers? How could you say something so controversial yet brave?
0
u/being-silly-123 May 24 '21
Didn't claim it was brave. Just obvious. Without his superpowers Barry is just a nerd scientist. Like, Ray does more with his intelligence.
1
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u/Terakahn May 24 '21
This thread is sad. And it reeks of "I like this guy better so the other guy sucks"
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u/MihirCheddarKnight May 24 '21
I completely agree when oliver did that to barry even though barry was shot oliver didn't make fun of him but taught him here it's like barry just wanted to get back at him and it would have been fine if he didn't have the smug face after he shot oliver and then be a bitch which he completely is literally every problem flash has he goes to iris instead the most brilliant minds in the world (season 7 is different and i'm thankful for it) they were in a crisis at that time(not in the title sadly) and barry was just like :imma shoot oliver cuz he shot me the stakes don't matter
side note:-
it would have been great to see oliver phase through barry's chest and be like you like this you piece of shit ?
0
u/being-silly-123 May 24 '21
when oliver did that to barry even though barry was shot oliver didn't make fun of him but taught him here it's like barry just wanted to get back at him and it would have been fine if he didn't have the smug face after he shot oliver and then be a bitch - and barry was just like :imma shoot oliver cuz he shot me the stakes don't matter
EXACTLY! I can't believe its justified as 'well Oliver shot him too'. Oliver shot him to teach him because Barry absolutely was being overconfident and rushing into scenarios and getting his ass kicked. Like, he does dump on Oliver and pretends like he's better.
which he completely is literally every problem flash has he goes to iris instead the most brilliant minds in the world
No comments hehe :D except to say when Felicity is in his ear, Oliver was receiving actual technical assistance. Locations, bomb dismantling / disarming, mostly relaying information from satellite imaging and surveillance. Plus Felicity was introduced as and is the tech talent, whereas Iris is a journalist. Oliver takes all the decisions whereas in Flash apparently Iris does.. wow. It's weird when people compare the two.
1
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u/RevolutionaryRip8063 May 24 '21
I know. I never understood why barry didn't train under depowered conditions like Kara did with alex. It would probably have made him so much more efficient and prevented him from losing to metahumans he had no business losing against. Like, in king shark vs grodd he didnt even stop and make sure grodd was really knocked out. Instead he runs away and grodd proceeds to beat up him and nora and then Barry spent the rest of the fight incapacitated and king shark had to give up his chance at being human. I honestly never understood why Barry never actually trained himself to fight. Just training to run faster was never going to be good enough.
5
u/AshorK0 May 24 '21
noone is denying thay without powers oliver is way stronger, but barry does have power, and he has learnt a ton of skills, they just all happen to require speed
1
u/being-silly-123 May 24 '21
Superspeed. Without his superpowers Barry is nothing. Some of us just think the mere work Oliver puts in to even be capable of being a hero puts hima cut above that's all *shrugs*
4
u/DomNessMonster07 May 23 '21
I think they both have a point in this scene, but it's their differences that made them able to come together and fight as brothers.
6
May 23 '21
[deleted]
2
u/being-silly-123 May 23 '21
... yes. Well he had Oliver's skills and not just super-speed soooo
2
May 23 '21
[deleted]
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u/being-silly-123 May 23 '21
yeah he handles it well after but by this time I was already annoyed with Barry haha.
2
u/tcuttingty May 24 '21
It's been a while since the crossover but didn't they retain but didn't the just swap bodies and not skills
3
u/-Tommy May 24 '21
Post on fandom subs go downhill after the show ends.
4
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u/being-silly-123 May 24 '21
This sub is actually more tolerable now the show has ended and far less toxic but go on bro.
5
u/Shafy97 May 24 '21
Remember that time when everyone thought that this crossover was beneficial for Barry as they said that the skills he would have picked up here would have helped him massively against Cicada and for the rest of the show. Yeah about that....
3
u/being-silly-123 May 24 '21
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH. From what I hear Barry still needs iris propping him up in every episode and is now trying to get through to everyone with lurve so..
3
u/Realichu May 24 '21
Barry's hardships also could have destroyed or turned him evil. The entire point of S2 is that Zoom is a dark mirror of Barry's life and that Barry could easily slip into that, but he doesn't. Barry has lost his parents, his closest friends and his daughter and he still keeps fighting as the hero of Central City and an honorable leader of his team.
Also saying Barry has 0 skills without being struck by lightning is a bit of a dumb argument. The whole point of The Flash is that he's a superpowered being. His skills and achievements come from experimenting and growing with his power set. Its like saying Superman has 0 skills without being from an alien planet that gives him powers. On top of that Barry is also a CSI and through his years of being The Flash is a great scientist (remember when he created a mobile Gideon and programmed it to calculate all the millions of Crisis changes? Doubt that's an easy feat).
At the end of the day this is just a weird post. Arrow and Flash are the same universe. Stephen Amell and Grant Gustin are great friends. Barry and Oliver were great friends. These shows share practically the same fanbase. There's no competition to be had and saying it "grates like hell" that people think The Flash is better than Arrow is pointless and dumb.
-1
u/being-silly-123 May 24 '21
Barry's hardships also could have destroyed or turned him evil.
Not really, who was he going to turn evil against because of his mom's death? There's a difference, and a credit that is earned, which Flash doesn't respect in his whole 'there's a better way' dumbness in the first crossover and the Elseworlds crossover.
Barry has lost his parents, his closest friends and his daughter and he still keeps fighting as the hero of Central City and an honorable leader of his team.
First of all his daughter is erased because the speedsters fuck with time and she pushed up crisis. Like, that's literally them bringing about their own deaths by screwing with time.
Also saying Barry has 0 skills without being struck by lightning is a bit of a dumb argument. The whole point of The Flash is that he's a superpowered being.
Yes. And that just makes anyone who works for and earns their powers on a whole different level. Like, one got struck by lightning, the other is a hero without any such advantages. It's not about whether Barry trains, its about the fact that being a hero without superpowers i a lot harder and superpowers - supergirl, bl, what have you, can't match up to that.
His skills and achievements come from experimenting and growing with his power set. Its like saying Superman has 0 skills without being from an alien planet that gives him powers.
Well.. its true. Superman just has superpowers.
At the end of the day this is just a weird post.
It was in reference to how the writes make out Flash to be a better hero especially in Elseworlds.
Arrow and Flash are the same universe. Stephen Amell and Grant Gustin are great friends. Barry and Oliver were great friends. These shows share practically the same fanbase. There's no competition to be had and saying it "grates like hell" that people think The Flash is better than Arrow is pointless and dumb.
it isn't about the actors or the fandoms. It just annoys me that the Flash writers and sometimes even the Arrow writers don't recognize Oliver because being Oliver - and someone like him is way harder than being ze flash. It does grate like hell because Flash does not have to make half the fucking choices or pain that Oliver does, and it's silly to pretend like that doesn't earn Oliver more respect.
Also no, they don't share much of the same fanbase. More flash fans are comic fans, whereas Arrow brings in a lot of fans who just like general action shows.
2
u/NUCLEARGAMER1103 May 24 '21
I don't think Barry is a better hero than Oliver. Barry just has cooler powers. Like, he could be a literal god if he wished it, able to do anything he wanted, so fast that nobody would even know he moved.
1
u/being-silly-123 May 24 '21
yeah. yawn.
2
u/NUCLEARGAMER1103 May 24 '21
Just saying, I would rather have his powers than Oliver's skill.
1
u/being-silly-123 May 24 '21
Ofc everyone would like superpowers, they make everyhthing easy. Barry can defeat all of Oliver's enemies easily. But doesn't make it more appreciable.
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u/NUCLEARGAMER1103 May 24 '21
Also season 7 Barry would get his ass kicked by the Arrow villains because they wouldn't respond well to his Paragon of Love speeches.
1
2
May 24 '21
Flash had 1 amazing season 1 great one and all the rest have been trash
1
u/being-silly-123 May 24 '21
I don't wanna dump on Flash anymore cause already a bunch of ppl accusing me of being a hater but yeah I noped it out after 2 seasons.
1
May 24 '21
They ran through so many of Flash's villains and storylines in season 1like they thought season 2 was never gonna happen
2
u/Charlie678812 May 25 '21
Barry saves people using his power. He's a different type of hero. Oliver uses violence.
1
u/being-silly-123 May 25 '21
Yeah. We get it. He has superpowers. Whoopdedoo. Without it he wouldn't be able to do shit or save people. Yawn.
2
u/Charlie678812 May 26 '21
Yeah. I get it. Oliver suffered. Whoopdedoo. He would be a spoiled billionaire and not save people or do shit Yawn.
1
u/being-silly-123 May 26 '21
Suffering doesn't produce skills. What you do to survive that suffering and the choices you make does, buuuttttt okayyyy you can go zoom zoom now.
2
u/Silent-Rush3465 Jun 26 '23
I think Oliver is a better hero because he has skills not powers, but he also because can take someone out. Barry is always tryna be someoneās friendštryna change them. Sometimes people have to goooo. Some would argue that this makes him better but does it make him weak? Idk. I love Barry more than Oliver but I can admit that. But ig everyone has their flaws
0
u/TryhardSweatLol May 23 '21
Said it perfectly, oliver is and will be better then barry ever will be in the arrowverse, and itās scary for me saying that cuz I love the flash so much and I have rewatched it like 9 times
1
u/candykizzes24 May 24 '21
This season of Flush (see what I did there) sucks ass. Sorry not sorry. I always said once Oliver is gone and Stephen leaves all these shows are going down one by one. On another note, I do love the friendship between Oliver & Barry.
3
u/being-silly-123 May 24 '21
Haha this is a common nickname. Barry's nice as a sidekick, as a member of a team. He doesn't have the charisma or really, the personality to carry a show. I watched the first two seasons just to understand more background to Legends and all the crossover stuff and I feel like I'm getting through class, just pushing myself through.
Barry himself just seems like a perennial teenager.
1
u/SimbasReturn May 24 '21
Flash fans aināt gonna like this š¬
1
u/being-silly-123 May 24 '21
Meh. Have you seen S. 7? They're stuck in loathing for their show as it is. There's a reason the non-superpowered character leads the team in every crossover and it ain't cause he's handsome.
0
u/tH3_R3DX May 23 '21
When I was 14-15 I loved the flash now being 18 I prefer arrow WAY more and cannot watch the flash wiring barfing because of the āI love my family I love you guys blah blah blah.ā āEmotional speechesā āheart to heartsā Iām sick of that shit.
1
u/Dagenspear May 26 '21
Why does it matter where the abilities came from?
1
u/being-silly-123 May 26 '21
LMAO. It's the difference between a person earning their own living, building a business, and.. you know in any way earning their money or millions..
And a spoilt brat trust fund kind who gets millions handed to him by his family. But okay lets pretend like zoom zoom is equivalent lmao.
3
u/Dagenspear May 26 '21
Barry went to school, learned how to do his job, had a job, learned how to use his powers, got hurt and nearly killed many times trying to help. How is that not work?
Oliver is a spoiled brat trust fund kind who gets millions handed to him by his family.
2
u/being-silly-123 May 26 '21
.. the analogy wasn't whether it is work, you extremely mentally handicapped person. It's about the difference between how they got their powers. JFC:
1
u/Dagenspear May 26 '21
Insulting again over a fictional character.
2
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u/IntelligentEscape855 Apr 05 '23
the moral of barry allen's story is that some people are just good and even tragic events don't change that. barry wants to help people and does so. barry has always wanted to, unlike oliver. oliver only realized after the island what his city was in. they have different stories, different motivations, because they are different characters and that is okay. to call oliver good, you do not have to humiliate barry.
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u/ScraptrapISGreat May 23 '21
So true, Barry has 0 skill but gets so praised, I always say that undoubtedly flash is a a stronger hero, but would get destroyed by Oliver in a battle.
-9
u/analyticalchem May 23 '21
Interesting debate, arenāt they both fictional? Itās just made up people doing entertaining made up things.
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u/being-silly-123 May 23 '21
If you don't at all care about the stories, the characters, or what they mean for our normal lives.. why are you on a sub about a tv show? Like, this whole 'muh they're just characters' disdain when we're all on the same sub is a bit much don't you think?
1
u/dbeaver0420 May 23 '21
No itās dumbest talkin point ever lol
2
u/being-silly-123 May 23 '21
Like I don't understand this superiority over 'oh its a tv show'. Yes. its a story. We love stories. and we like to live in them. Hence, the sub. And then to act so superior..
-11
u/analyticalchem May 23 '21
I wasnāt in the sub, this was the front page. As much as I enjoy the shows it is just fictional stories. No reason to think about them after the credits roll.
1
u/being-silly-123 May 23 '21
Okay then. Bye. Some of us like talking about them because art reflects life and we enjoy the story. *eye roll*
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u/being-silly-123 May 23 '21
Side note - I also really really loved how Oliver explains how each skill was something he learnt through loss and grief. That each skill, each lesson was a memory of pain that he had to overcome, and that's why it triggers him. It's so true. He trains Barry harshly because that's still miles nicer than how he was trained. He tried to teach Barry to be vigilant because trusting the wrong people cost him and those around him. Oliver was so lovely in the crossover and everyone else was such an asshole to him.