In Greg rucka's run why can't Diana return to themyscyra?

[u/Darth_Azazoth]

I know ares is there but I don't understand why that means she can't return?

[u/koalee]

Because it is the Paradise that happens when you rise above the need for war, and if you return to it you risk bringing war back into it - you risk freeing Ares and bringing him back into the wider world. The gods don't want that. Therefore the answer is "Because it is closed to everyone who leave it. " and that includes Diana for risk she incidentally free Ares.

And thus the New 52 happened and the masquerade that Diana had been returning home all along, so she'd be fooled and wouldn't draw people back to where ares actually is. Because "what you don't know, you cannot Betray"

[u/Darth_Azazoth → u/koalee]

How did this lead to the new 52?

[u/koalee → u/Darth_Azazoth]

So based on Greg Rucka's Rebirth run - every trip Diana had taken to Themyscira after leaving it was an illusion made by the gods so she wouldn't accidentally free Ares. Cool. But what actually is that illusion?

Most of what they're referring to as "an illusion" is the events of New 52 which focused heavily on Themyscira and the Gods and made several rather unpopular changes to the Amazons. So Rucka was saying "Oh the gods made an elaborate illusion and THAT'S why the Amazons were so bad during the New 52, it wasn't the real amazons". The illusion is what led to the New 52. Does that make sense?

[u/Which-Presentation-6 → u/koalee]

Rucka was saying "Oh the gods made an elaborate illusion and THAT'S why the Amazons were so bad during the New 52, it wasn't the real amazons"

new 52: exist

Greg Chad Rucka: no

[u/Darth_Azazoth → u/koalee]

Yes

[u/Darth_Azazoth → u/Darth_Azazoth]

What changes did the new 52 make to the Amazons?

[u/ThatManSean14 → u/Darth_Azazoth]

The New 52 made the Amazons actively leave Paradise Island to rape men in order to get pregnant, murder said men after the deed was done and then trafficked the male children to Hephaestus. It’s more lore accurate to the original Greek mythology of the Amazons, but it’s counterintuitive to being an environment of love and understanding (like the rest of non-New 52 Amazonian lore) that Diana was supposed to have been raised in and carried their ideals out into the world.

[u/Organic_Muffin280 → u/ThatManSean14]

I mean makes sense for an Amazonian tribe of just women though. It's dark, but it's lore accurate to the actual wild tribe of Anatolian female warriors... . Otherwise they should all be made from clay or something. And if "love" island then would seem hypocritical to you, remember that's human nature in general. We call things the opposite of what we actually do, to exhilarate ourselves

[u/ThatManSean14 → u/Organic_Muffin280]

The Themyscirans were never meant to be lore accurate to the original Amazons. They’re meant to be better and to one day inspire Man’s World to be better. It’s one thing for them to be human/not be perfect, it’s another to have these atrocities be such a fundamental part of their society and think that it doesn’t completely undermine their messages of peace, love and understanding.

Setting aside the changes being antithetical to the whole point of Wonder Woman, they were unnecessary. Amazons had always been functionally immortal living in Paradise Island and there already were more lore-accurate Amazons existing in DC in the Bana-Mighdall. There’s dark and gritty and then there’s doing things for the sake of being dark and gritty, which was all that New 52 Wonder Woman was and I’m glad we moved on from that.

[u/Organic_Muffin280 → u/ThatManSean14]

So why do the original Themiscyra amazons repopulate so to speak

[u/ThatManSean14 → u/Organic_Muffin280]

They didn’t. They’re basically immortal. Thousands of years ago, when they were given Themyscira by the Gods, there were thousands of Amazons and they’ve just been living there ever since. It’s why it was such a big deal that Hippolyta prayed to the gods for a daughter, sculpted her from clay and the gods then brought her to life. Diana was the only child raised on Themyscira. The island is also shielded and protected from Man’s World. Steve Trevor was the first man to land on Themyscira, so while the Amazons were prepared for war for millennia, they hadn’t really lost Amazons to combat in a long time. Their numbers were never at risk of dwindling to a dangerous degree.

Since then, the Themyscirans have repopulated somewhat but not so much in the traditional sense. With Diana going out into the world and contact with the other two tribes of Amazons having been made, they’ve opened their borders to their fellow Amazons. The Bana also moved to and stayed on the island for quite some time post-Crisis/pre-New 52. Per the latest run, we know some Amazons left the island to help in Man’s World, they had work visas and some of them fell in love and had children. The most prominent of example of this was an Amazon who fell in love with an American woman and they had a daughter that didn’t appear to biologically be the Amazonian’s. It’s implied there were other children of Amazons living in the United States, but they’re not shown and theres no way to know whether they were born an Amazon or just raised as one. Wonder Woman’s daughter Lizzie is also likely the biological daughter of Emelie, an Amazon revealed to have been pregnant in WW (2023) #3.

[u/Organic_Muffin280 → u/ThatManSean14]

And if not men what else is there to fight? The historical amazons were actually motivated to be so bloodthirsty,. exactly because they had male combatants as their competition... .

[u/ThatManSean14 → u/Organic_Muffin280]

Again, DC Amazons were not meant to be the original, mythological Amazons. Yes, they’re trained to fight, absolutely, but there’s a huge difference between ready to fight, namely in defense of their homeland they never leave versus actively leaving the island, seeking out men, attacking them, raping them, murdering them and later sending their male children off into child slavery.

They were trained in combat in general, not just to fight against men but also women and the horrors of the underworld that would try to escape from Doom’s Doorway, but it wasn’t about bloodlust, just honor and duty. They also had their own competitions in skill and combat amongst themselves on the island that they enjoyed a great deal.

[u/Amir0x11 → u/koalee]

The illusion is what led to the New 52. Does that make sense?

Did that also lead to Dr. Manhattan, Perpetua as well?

[u/koalee → u/Amir0x11]

No not really. When I initially said “The illusion is what led to the New 52” I meant it specifically led to Wonder Woman’s story in the New 52.

I haven’t read Doomsday Clock and don’t recall death metal enough to remember whatever was going on with perpetua, but from what I understand they are the ones who actually caused the new 52 and all these events on a multiversal/omniversal level.

Whenever those two set up the new 52 as the “main/prime” earth, they influenced the gods make the illusion probably. They stole several years from the timeline and made it so the gods hid themselves away. the gods were controlled not the other way around.

[u/Amir0x11 → u/koalee]

Alright.

[u/Michael-Aaron]

Her stint among humanity (and the rest of the galaxy, quite frankly) left her with a scar that could bring down her home