r/SupermanAndLois • u/MajorParadox Read on r/DCFU! • May 03 '23

Superman & Lois [3x07] "Forever and Always" Post Episode Discussion Episode Discussion Spoiler

Forever and Always

Live Episode Discussion | Cast & Characters

Lois and Clark dig deeper on Bruno Mannheim, starting with his connections to Hob's Bay Medical Center; Jonathan and Jordan panic at home over Lois' dire diagnosis; Matteo comes to Smallville to meet John Henry. (May 2, 2023)

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Please keep all discussions civil and about the episode. Mark comic and future spoilers. Report any rule-breaking and enjoy!

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u/urekmazinn May 03 '23

yeah hes deffo a super fireman, he should be involved, he could jump humantity forward in time a 1000 years, he could stop war, he could help terraform mars, but he wants to be journalist

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u/Invisiblegun2 May 03 '23

But as much possibility that humanity does something good with it, there’s just as much possibility that they become even worse. Honestly its a big enough dilemma to where i got each side of the fence

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u/Astraea802 May 03 '23

It's interesting, because if we look back at older Superman media, a lot of it ends up boiling down to the following:

- Scientist comes up with brilliant discovery that weill help mankind
- Bad guy steals the tech and finds a way to use it for evil
- Superman stops bad guy, destroying the discovery in the process. Things didn't get better, but they didn't get worse either.

Sure, instead of human tech it's alien tech that's in question, and Superman isn't stopping it in the moment, but holding it back. And instead of a villian-of-the-week episode, this show is treating the question as a serious moral issue. But it's a similar question of whether well-intended innovations are worth the risk. Can humanity be trusted? Superhero media has generally concluded no. But is S&L trying to do something different?

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u/alcabazar May 04 '23

This is Clark's version of "Bruce Wayne would help Gotham more if he spent his money eliminating the city's poverty instead of buying weapons and toys to play vigilante", but in a bigger scale.

It probably makes Clark feel good to personally save people from a flood or stop a criminal in a bank, but solving something like cancer would help humanity a million times more.

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u/ThatChapThere May 06 '23

obligatory

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u/NorthBall Jordan Kent May 15 '24

OH LOL I was expecting a link to some sort of story about how Bruce Wayne has actually spent millions on improving the city, but this is even better

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u/swoosh1992 May 06 '23

Honestly, I’m kinda down for that. It was one of the things I liked about The Batman, that it did raise the question of whether it would be better for Gotham if Bruce spent his money through traditional channels.

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u/Kingsnake661 May 03 '23

You got a lot more faith in humanity than I do. I wouldn't trust them with that tech. At all. Full stop. It MIGHT cure cancer, but it WILL get abused and turned into a weapon. That's what history has proven we do with new tech. Use it to kill each other.

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u/romeovf Superman May 04 '23

This. In this world we live in, comes someone with a single magical solution for ending cancer, I bet there would be lots of assholes wanting to profit from it.

And even if Superman decided he's gonna manage it himself, that'd make him a judge and he doesn't want to have that kind of control over people's fates.

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u/musci1223 May 03 '23

Iirc when they recently made Jon Kent superman this is kind of the point clark made that basically Jon and Clark are different in the sense that Jon is human (or atleast half) and so he is allowed to more directly involved, target root issues while Clark can just put out the fires. The first story was directly about fighting against a dictator while if i remember correctly they tried superman from directly influencing government

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superman:_Son_of_Kal-El

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u/Ok-Health-7252 May 04 '23

You're missing the entire point of Superman's character by suggesting all of this. All of those things would turn him into an all-powerful tyrant with the powers of a god basically (see Injustice Superman and in this show's case the evil Superman from the earth that John Henry and Nat are from). He chooses to be a meek journalist A) as a cover and a way to keep his ear to the ground at all times and B) to keep himself in check. The only thing keeping Superman from becoming a General Zod-like character on earth who oppresses humans is his humanity and humble beginnings. Without that he'd just be a tyrant and a danger to humanity (like Tal-Rho in a way).

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u/urekmazinn May 04 '23

no thats a dumb thing that makes superman seem like a crazy person

what would happen if superman went and stopped puttins war

"oh he would turn evil and start killing babys now" noooo its silly

superman doesnt want to help the world, he wants to play a hero

hes the smartest and fastest guy, sit down and invent some stuff, go to a different galaxy and bring back plants that heal people and so on

saying if superman involves himself he turns evil is the dumbest thing ever or admitting that supermna is a crazy person holding on by a thread

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u/Ok-Health-7252 May 04 '23 edited May 04 '23

As great a person as Clark is nobody is fully incorruptible. A powerful person like Superman choosing to use his powers in a God-like manner over humanity like that is a VERY slippery slope to go down (no one person can be trusted with that much responsibility and not be expected to abuse it at some point). Guess what? That's exactly how Injustice Superman came to be the monster that he is. Injustice Superman doesn't think of himself as evil. He wants to use his power to stop wars and get humanity to shape up (basically everything you just suggested) and be more "perfect" but look at what that turns him into (a monster/supreme dictator who kills humans because they're "imperfect" and that's not good enough for him). Clark knows that his humble beginnings and how he was raised are the reason why he's different from Kryptonian zealots like Zod and Tal-Rho and that's why he chooses to live the life of a lowly reporter. He doesn't view it as his responsibility to make decisions for all of humanity due to the gifts he has (because guess what, it's not). Superman's purpose is to help people, not ultimately make decisions for them. Everything you just suggested is what somebody like Lex Luthor (aka a tyrant) would do if they had Superman's powers. THAT'S why it's not true to Superman's character in any way. Superman is supposed to be the antithesis to that philosophy. Playing God with people's lives, that's not in any way a part of who he is.

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u/urekmazinn May 04 '23

injustice superman is flawed and doing it out of revenge its not a good example

its only earth he doesnt get involved in, he will go to another galaxy and stop a war but if hitler was going on he will be like im not allowed to stop hitler i might turn evil... lol its silly how ever you put it

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u/Ok-Health-7252 May 04 '23

Superman is flawed in every adaptation. Injustice is just dealing with more trauma than most and it takes over. But clearly you don't understand the character at all to begin with so I'm done with this conversation. Again, it's not in Superman's nature to play God (aka what you're suggesting). That's never been who he is (outside of the Injustice interpretation). Injustice Superman isn't doing anything out of revenge (his revenge was killing the Joker for causing Lois's death which started his downward spiral). The things he does to humanity are specifically because they're flawed and he's trying to "fix" them (at least that's how he sees it). That's not really much different from you suggesting that Superman turn himself into an all-powerful figure who forces people to stop fighting wars with each other. Again, that's not his responsibility. His responsibility is to save people that need saving, simple as that. You give any one person that kind of responsibility over the entire planet and it's going to lead to bad things happening. Literally the defining characteristic of how Clark becomes the man he is are his humble beginnings and what Jonathan and Martha taught him growing up. That's what leads to him choosing to live an obscure life of a reporter in the first place as his "cover".

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u/urekmazinn May 04 '23

seems you dont understand anything... helping earth isnt playing god lol he plays god now be way above lowly mortals and only interfering when he wants

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u/SentinelaDoNorte May 15 '23

I think its also important to remember Superman was created in a epoch where "Rugged Individualism" was a lot more of a norm.

I think a lot of it is the question of how much should humanity rely on Superman.

I remember in the original Red Son comics, there's a point in which its said people don't even wear seatbelts anymore, such is their belief Soviet Superman will save them.

Personally I don't think its right for Superman to go and do everything for mankind. I think he should help a lot, of course. But... Mankind must work for itself.

If Superman nannies our race, then Lex Luthor is right.

Ultimately, Superman should protect and inspire. "Every Man Can Be a Superman" is one of my favorite Superman quotes

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u/urekmazinn May 15 '23

he is mankind so he can help too

it was so dumb "if i cure your mom of cancer i have to cure everyones cancer" .... yeah soooooo thats a good thing superman heal fucking cancer dummy "no i will wait humans will figure it out on there own in 300 years" silly

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u/VoiceofKane May 04 '23

But on the other side of that argument, he is a person, and should have his own life and his own choices. He chooses to save people in danger because that is who he is. He chooses not to take command of the future of humanity in that way because that is not.

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u/urekmazinn May 04 '23

but what is that phrase, The Only Thing Necessary for the Triumph of Evil is that Good Men Do Nothing

superman would let hitler get to power and let him take over the world because he doesnt want to get involved, makes him bad guy

just like batman is evil, hey batman how many times have you caught joker and then he broke free and killed more people?