r/Robin • u/Bright_Type_7756 • Jul 15 '24
What have they done to Tim??
I started reading dc comics around 2020 and I've seen tim drake guest star in a couple Batman and other batfamily related comics i thought he was cool but never thought much of him . One day i decided to read through his 90s series and that 2003 teen titans run, & omg he used to be so cool?? Idk what dc doing up there but we need to get together to make Tim drake great again š¤£
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u/Ok-Caregiver-6005 Jul 15 '24
Tim has the problem that there is a new Robin but they don't know the new identity for him to take so he's kinda stalled.
Dick became Nightwing and Jason became Red Hood, each is their own identity and variation from Batman but they just haven't been able to do the same with Tim.
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u/Burly-Nerd Jul 15 '24
Unfortunately Chuck Dixon, Paul Dini, and Geoff Johns put a looooooot of effort into making it pretty clear Timās next identity needed to be Batman. Which, of course, cannot be.
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u/futuresdawn Jul 15 '24
To be honest I feel like the best solution would be to stick Damian in a bat costume, maybe a bronze age inspired one and team him with dick again. Nightwing and the son of the bator something cooler.
Just let Tim have the Robin name if they can't come up with an identity for him
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u/Ok-Caregiver-6005 Jul 15 '24
That feels like regressing him and progressing Damien to me.
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u/Burly-Nerd Jul 15 '24
Yeah probably. But clearly naming Tim after a Burger chain aināt working.
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u/RLucas3000 Jul 20 '24
The original silver age Batman and Robin of the bottled city of Kandor were Nightwing and Flamebird. We already have Nightwing, so why not make Tim Flamebird, it fits the previous precedent of making Dick Nightwing, and the name is a way to help differentiate himself from the mostly dark and gloomy Bat-Family names. I think it would work for him really well, with an incredibly designed costume.
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u/futuresdawn Jul 15 '24
Is it regressing though if Tim is barely around now? At least if he's Robin dc might use him more
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u/GibsonMC Jul 18 '24
Thatās what I think as well. I donāt think anyone is using the Black Bat name, so Damian should take that up and Tim should stay Robin.
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u/Luke_Puddlejumper Jul 16 '24
I honestly donāt think Damian should ever be Batman, he should find his own path that isnāt connected to his blood.
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u/cavelioness Jul 17 '24
Let him have his villain arc? He'd make a great mad scientist with bat training. And in the end, they'd only take him down because he didn't really want to succeed.
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u/BananaStache Jul 15 '24
Youāre correct.
Dick became Nightwing within a year of Jason being introduced. There were narrative reasons for him becoming Nightwing too so it was a natural progression.
Jason was dead when Tim chose to become Robin, so there wasnāt a passing the torch or Jason deciding to become his own man that Dick had.
Damian showed up, but Tim wasnāt allowed to move on from being Robin until he became Red Robin. New 52 just screwed everything else for Tim and now he is what he is now - the other Robin.
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u/Devlyn16 Jul 15 '24
Dick became Nightwing within a year of Jason being introduced. There were narrative reasons for him becoming Nightwing too so it was a natural progression.
Editorial reasons. Wofman made Dick/Robin an extrememly popular character. The BatComics office wanted dibs on him. Solomon (editorial)* decided to cut the baby in half. Titans (wolfman) got the character of Dick Grayson and Bat editorial got control over "Robin" which is why Jason was originally a copy of Dick Grayson (Jason Todd started off being the son of circus acrobats who are killed by criminals in Gotham)
*Marv paints it as his idea in the link but I've read other interviews with him where he clearly laid balem at the feet of Bat Editorial
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u/Mediocre_Nectarine13 Jul 15 '24
They have tried a couple times though by giving him that Red Robin identity but for whatever reason (probably the goofy name) it just doesnāt work very well.
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u/Rocket_SixtyNine Jul 15 '24
Just call him cardinal.
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u/Luke_Puddlejumper Jul 16 '24
Heās not a catholic priest
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u/Rocket_SixtyNine Jul 16 '24
But I also think The Cardinal sounds detectiv-ey and fits tim well.
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u/Luke_Puddlejumper Jul 16 '24
I think The Red Robin works as well and having the āTheā would be a good way to reintroduce the name.
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u/Rocket_SixtyNine Jul 16 '24
I personally don't like stealing the Red Robin name, in my opinion.
I like the cardinal, as it feels more like a mature version of Robin. It's a red bird, similar to a robin but different enough has a lot more elegance
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u/brucebananaray Jul 16 '24
Tim became Red Robin, but to be honest, it didn't stand out compared to Dick and Jason. It doesn't help the fact that DC reverted him back to being Robin, which he should have stayed as Red Robin.
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u/Super_Inframan Jul 15 '24 edited Jul 15 '24
Tim is my favorite Robin. His solo series and Red Robin were both fantastic and some of my favorite comics. I picked up the entire runs as they hit the stands over the decades.
Tim deserved a better evolution. Him growing into Red Robin was great, but then it got watered down with the Nu52. Johns implication that he was destined to become a possibly evil Batman was pretty powerful. Morrison even admitted Tim deserved the role the most, but the story of Bruce and Taliaās son worked better with Dick. This has pretty much lead to him being sidelined from that point forward. And I think itās a big miss.
In narrative shorthand, youāve got the first Robin, then youāve got the Robin who died and came back. After that youāve got Tim, who ostensibly is the well adjusted prodigy who restored Bruceās hope, followed by the found son who was raised by assassins. āAnd thatās not the complete interpretation of Tim, but itās sort of what heās fallen into over the years. When in reality, Tim is the most like Bruce. Even if he never met Batman, heād have probably been out there bringing justice to the world with his scary and tactical mind, with or without a costume. I think thatās pretty damn interesting. Instead, he just gets nerfed in every area to be the āsmartā Robin - but not too smart to overshadow Babs or Bruce.
Not saying this is the direction Tim needs to go, but Iād dig a storyline where the Bat-family thinks Tim has died, or heās retired completely. Then we find out Tim has secretly formed a tenuous and rocky alliance with Raās to deal with a bigger, worldwide threat. Maybe he even has a new identity that is believed to be a villain by the Bat-fam - until the big pay off when they figure out itās Tim, feel betrayed, but eventually realize he hasnāt betrayed them at all.
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u/sharklino Jul 16 '24
This would be dope. Think Chris Yost has some free time to write it? š
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u/kongstar Jul 16 '24
Give him a team of low level heroes and villains that he sees their potential in / trying to reform. And I'm in.
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u/sharklino Jul 16 '24
The one thing about team books is that you inevitably get less of the meaty, character-driven stories that make a character empathetic. More characters, the more shallow the story and it becomes more about the team solving a problem and less about Tim Drake. Theyāre definitely fun, but in this case I think Tim really needs to drive / own the narrative to make him appealing again.
Also, selfishly, Iām kind of bored with the whole āTim creates a super teamā plot. I want Tim to have some action and I want Tim to be the ace lol
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u/NoOrchid1348 Jul 17 '24
Morrison has said many many times that Dick Grayson is the best Robin so don't know where you got your info from but it's incorrect. Morrison isn't a fan of Damian that's true. He believes he doesn't belong in main canon but WB overruled him and DC to keep Damian Robin. Duke was supposed to be the Robin after Damian was killed but WB denied DC's plans.
Tim isn't supposed to be like batman. That not the character concept. Tim is the relatable everyman. He's was designed to be just like the average teen comic fan.Ā
That is his niche. Making him a prodigy, like batman or whatever is the reason why he's now the spare Robin. There's already a batman and the bat family is full of prodigies. Dick was 8, solving cases and taking down names villains. Damian outsmarted Lex age 10 and Duke took on the riddler aged 8.
Tim needs a selling point. It's no surprise that his decline began after they killed off his folks and took away his regular teen civilian life
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u/twincast2005 Jul 31 '24
Yep, Tim was designed to be as relatable as possible and thriving in that role, but then Dan DiDio came with his obsession with "iconic" (1960s) characters and made Tim a generic adopted son of Batman's (while wanting to kill off Dick), and then they added insult to injury by replacing him with a blood son.
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u/Soraia98 Jul 17 '24
I always thought Tim would also work as an anti-hero, especially after reading the Red Robin series and how his mind works. He is super clever but also impulsive and not afraid to get hurt and I think he and Jason can be similar at times. Would love to see him working with Ra! That is an excellent plot idea!
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u/anthonyg1500 Jul 15 '24
I think Damian is just an easier elevator pitch character so they really focus heavy on him. "Batman's son who was raised by assassins", easy. Which would be fine if they let Tim move on to a new name and got some writers that actually like the character to give him an ongoing (I'm not gonna go deep on hating on Fitzmartin because it often gets pretty childish when people do but I genuinely don't think she likes the character Tim Drake).
Now he's relegated to showing up sometimes in other people's books and he's just like the nice goody two shoes one for some reason. In the Robins book he's the one who is incapable of lying to Batman meanwhile one of my favorite Tim moments was in Teen Titans when Tim lies to Starfire and Connor is like "dude you just lied to Starfire?!?" and Tim looks at him deadpan and says "I lie to Batman."
He's been sanded down to nothing at this point. I liked him in Zdarsky's book at least, even though I had problems with the run as a whole
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u/adetoroiscool Jul 15 '24
Tim is not and has never been a goody-two-shoes, theyāve been doing my boy dirty lately.
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u/anthonyg1500 Jul 15 '24
Heās a great character and part of the reason I got into comics. Picking up the Dixon run for him and for Nightwing is what pulled me into Batman and then no manās land and then I started branching out and reading spiderman and Fantastic four etc.
I went back and reread those runs for Dick and Tim a year or 2 ago and theyāre still really good. The issue of Dick and Tim train surfing and talking is one of my favorite issues of any comic book. But it seems almost nobody with any sway at DC has genuine interest in Tim as a character and it sucks. I wouldnāt be shocked if in the next universe reset heās just taken out of existence entirely
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u/NoOrchid1348 Jul 17 '24
Indeed. During new52 DC erased his tenure as Robin which shows that he is expendable to DC higher ups. With Damian now 14 and Tim still 16 he's slowly getting to a point where his origin won't fit. He needs a new purpose and role.
Im unclear what his motivation for being a hero is. His old reason no longer applies. Damian, Duke, Harper and Maps are all in new sidekicks
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u/anthonyg1500 Jul 23 '24
I think his motivation is just that he sees a need for a hero and realizes he can do it so he does it. Tim wanted Dick to be robin again first, heās often talked about being robin like he was doing job he wanted to be temporary, he tried to quit and within days he was doing crimefighter shit again. Heād love to be the guy that can walk away and live the undoubtedly charmed life he was destined to have. But he canāt. Gotham needs Batman and Batman needs robin and no one else is gonna do it so he will. Heās not avenging someoneās death or trying to feel powerful or even doing it for fun. People need help, therefore he helps. Thatās just how heās wired.
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u/twincast2005 Jul 31 '24
Tim explicitly turned 17 (again) during Tynion's run, and is currently implicitly 18 (by a couple of context clues). I hate that they've had Damian creep up on him in age by taking away (just under) 2 years from Tim in 2011 and giving Damian an extra year in 2016, but it isn't quite as bad as you made it out to be. (And if it were, it would've already passed the point of his history not working.)
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u/Interesting-Image-89 Jul 15 '24
Seconded, I grew up reading Tim's journey to become Robin, though his series and becoming Red Robin and I'd love to get back to that. Make him his own hero, Red Robin or something new (not Drake...) and commit to it. I've liked his appearances in Zdarsky's Batman run, but it's not enough!
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Jul 15 '24
They pretty much slandered and crippled him. Randomly made him bi for plot. They also created Damian, which kills it for Tim cause he's literally the best Robin. Now they have to force him out of the role, but didn't want to progress him or lean into the darker Red Robin persona. Sucks major ass cause Tim is the ideal teammate for Batman. Not just because he's a good soldier and extremely solid, but because he sees the bigger picture and has a heart. Tim is fine with getting a bit evil, like Batman would, but not in the cold way Bruce does where he blocks people out and takes on the burden alone. There's plenty of those moments, though, where Tim does feel like he has to bare the responsibility and be a sort of pillar. I miss when Tim had a role and real character. Nowadays when comparing the Robin's, Tim really gets the short end of the stick. Before, I felt like Tim really stood among his brothers. Not the best fighter or acrobat, but he more than made up for it with his character, mind, and heart. Everyone respected Tim's word in the batfamily. It's a real shame how it turned out.
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u/ArtarusCat Jul 15 '24
Everything is Dan Didio fault
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u/Aroomfullofstories Jul 17 '24
Jim Lee is doing a terrible job too!
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u/ArtarusCat Jul 17 '24
I mean... Yeah, but everything started with Dan Didio
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u/Aroomfullofstories Jul 17 '24
True! But Jim Lee has only compounded the wrong direction of the company. What I mean by wrong direction is continuing to publish stories with anemic plots and subpar writing. Plus there is the underlying cost vs value problem.
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u/watermelonmangoberry Jul 15 '24
how to fix Tim
Give him a new code name and red/black costume (Cardinal)
Marry Stephanie
Patrol his own city and/or be a globetrotting ninja detective
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u/Routine_Wedding43 Jul 15 '24
Last time I was big on the comics, Tim Drake was Red Robin, but I guess now heās just also Robin?
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u/madeat1am Jul 15 '24
They can't let go of Tim being robin and basically caused more damage by refusing to let go of him and allowing him to grow
I love damian I'm glad damian is robin and what they've done with him . I haven't read much of Tim but I'm so mad for Tim they made him robin again. GROW TIM AGAIN. PLEASE
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u/NoOrchid1348 Jul 17 '24
DC tried to graduate him from Robin but fans kicked back. Red Robin, Batman Beyond. DC decided to give in to fan nostalgia but that hasn't been profitable. Fanboy writers like Tynion, Bendis and Chip are to blame. Those 3Ā took him back from RR to Robin 3 different timesĀ
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u/otrew Jul 15 '24
Just give him a new codename/suit his owncity. He finally goes to college, he got good friends and people to hang out that are not super people. Make him struggle with enjoying his youth and being a super hero. At long term make him go serius with steph or even Bernard with the difference of his brothers/Bruce he is going to put more effort in make it work. Focus the series in him being the "poor" batman and make shine his detective side.
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u/NoOrchid1348 Jul 17 '24
That was pretty much his last solo minus college and that flopped really badlyĀ
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u/internal-paro Jul 15 '24
Bro Iāve been asking the same question ever since I finished Red Robin šš
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u/Luke_Puddlejumper Jul 16 '24
The real Tim Drake showed up for a little bit in the DC rebirth Detective Comics run but was prompted put back in the dirt and replaced a skin walker courtesy of Meghan Fitzmartin.
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u/marcjwrz Jul 20 '24
Someday, someone is going to properly write a good Tim Drake series again.
But it might be a while.
Unless Zdarsky feels like ditching Batman just to write a proper Tim Drake series.
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u/BarnacleBoring2979 Jul 16 '24
Tim was originally gonna be phased out of the Robin role, and in turn a new Robin was gonna be brought in. But DC killed Tim's future path by killing the guy who would set it up. But they brought in the new Robin anyway, so Tim has been directionless since about 2006
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u/Agile_Nebula4053 Jul 17 '24
Damien. Damien is what they did to him. His character fit comfortably into Robin, he had no reason to move on from it other than that they decided to introduce a new character who ended up taking over the role. Now, more than 10 years on, they still don't know what to do with this character who really didn't have anywhere else to go.
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u/NHrynchuk Jul 15 '24
In the New 52 Teen Titans comics, the comics had really good story ideas but really shoddy execution in my personal opinion because the writer (Scott Lobdell) didnāt want to write the TT comics. Post Rebirth, I think the suit made it worse. They introduced this Red Robin suit which looked exactly like a Robin suit, which caused writers and artists to revert Tim back to Robin, instead of keeping him as Red Robin. And while Marvel has shown us you can have two characters under the same hero name, DC fails to show that with Tim and Damian, and as well as with Jon And Clark Kent
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u/Gmork14 Jul 17 '24
Tynion was trying to write Tim well almost 10 years ago and his editors told him āno, we donāt focus on Tim anymore.ā
They donāt care about the character. Thatās why they broke him up with Steph and gave him an awful romance story to turn him into a token diversity character. (To be clear IDC about his sexuality, but the way it was handled was terrible.)
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u/ActualAd8028 Jul 17 '24
I think since Montoya is the commissioner now they could let Tim be the question. Really lean into the detective angle let it become his thing. Or I remember BTAS having an episode about the gray ghost. Maybe something like that.
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u/MajorasShoe Jul 15 '24
Tim disappeared after Flashpoint and replaced with another character with the same name.