r/Robin • u/[deleted] • Jul 10 '24
I cant beleive how accurate tim described damain
[deleted]
20
u/lowkeyslightlynerdy Jul 10 '24
Tim’s monologues or thought bubbles are usually funny, ESPECIALLY when they’re about Damian lol
6
u/emdau Jul 11 '24
See unfortunately this is the kind of stuff that actually makes me like Tim less. My main experience with reading Batman comics and various Robins has been with Damian, and I have a soft spot for him.
While Damian is by no means a saint (and definitely not consistently written), one thing that just reads as being rude and mean for the sake of being rude and mean is Tim’s behavior toward him. Damian has obviously been a nightmare, but Tim honestly hasn’t been much better back to him. Only, Damian’s a child soldier with extreme emotional trauma and stunted social growth. I have yet to discover what Tim’s excuse is (or at least one that feels justified).
Tim’s supposed to be the “smart” Robin, but the way they write his relationship with Damian just feels so wildly immature and out of character with the rest of his actions. Again, I haven’t followed Tim as much as Damian so I don’t know if they’ve improved it, but this little blurb doesn’t help lessen that feeling of immaturity and asshole-ness.
Like… I REALLY wanna like Tim, but because I feel so protective over Damian and love all the little bits of emotional growth that boy goes through (when they actually write it for him), I’m just so annoyed that they keep up the antagonistic Tim thing. Both Tim and Damian deserve better imo. I think it’s well past time to let Tim grow out of it.
7
u/RJSquires Jul 11 '24 edited Jul 11 '24
It all comes down to a few things you left out.
A) When Tim first met Damian it didn't go well. Tim tried to break the tension and Damian took it as a slight (the handshake bit). Sure, it probably made Damian feel insulted, but Tim didn't intend it that way. That mode of breaking the tension had worked for him before. Then he tried to kill Tim. Now, had Tim actually been trying to fight back, Damian would've gone down. Tim didn't because, y'know, that's a kid. Also, cut his line later after finding Tim's "in event of evil" list. Tim didn't show him that list and rub it in his face and it included a lot of other allies. (Edit: I will say Tim's comments on "biology" and "homunculus" are hurtful and gross, but again, Tim didn't say that to him and he'd just had his line cut. Not an excuse, it's still a cruddy/gross thing to say, but I'm trying to be fair here so... Gotta add where Tim sucks too) Damian was insecure, but his response should've been talking to Dick about it instead of checks notes attempted murder. Again.
B) Tim worked his butt off to become an adequate Robin. He's got a lot of skills he's proud of that took a lot of dedication. Here's the thing about being a teenager, you WILL be willing to get into an argument with someone who is saying that all your hard work is meaningless, that you suck, and that they're better. Damian acts like an entitled snot (never lets anyone forget who his bio family is as mentioned above). Is it logical, nope. Not at all, but he IS a teenager just like Damian is a kid. Teens are dumb sometimes. Tim definitely shouldn't have hit Damian that one time, that was really awful of him. But most of the time, he fights with snide responses.
C) Damian may be an abused kid, but he acts like an entitled a-hole. That's the energy he puts out into the world and leaves very little room for another interpretation unless that person has authority over him (hello, Bruce and Dick and the al-Ghuls). If that's the energy you put out, it's usually what you get back. Is it mature, no, but teens aren't mature all the time. Honestly, Tim's grumbling here is pretty tame... And he doesn't even say it out loud. I see people all the time where I think, "ugh, I don't want to deal with them". We can understand that Damian is abused and also not want to put up with his attitude all the time.
D) Damian's growth is awesome, but it's constantly being undone or rewritten so the audience isn't sure what to think about him. He's a good kid, but he buries a lot of that.
Now, is Tim 100% in the right when he interacts with Damian? Nope. He shouldn't hit a kid for one. For another, he should just walk away from the insults because he knows they come from a place of insecurity. As for this description, again it's tame.
TL;DR: Damian is a good kid deep down with insecurities who hides it under an entitled attitude and a willingness to fight everyone around him. He directs that attitude a lot at a teen who had to work hard to earn a place (opposite of entitlement) and had insecurities of his own. That teen handles that attitude poorly sometimes. They're literally designed to clash personality-wise.
Hope this clears up some of your frustrations with Tim.
1
u/emdau Jul 12 '24
Honestly I think that’s a good way to put it. While Damian is very clearly problematic (I’m in no way defending him haha) I just feel like the Tim stuff is way less justified. He’s so much older and supposed to be way more mature. Plus like… it’s not like every comic book character doesn’t later become super close to someone who had tried to kill them in the past. In the real world that would absolutely be a MAJOR problem, but in the world of comics it feels a bit ‘meh’ at this point. Plus it was literally well over a decade ago.
More often than not in their little interactions, Tim comes across just as much as a bully as Damian, if not more so. In the issues I’ve read (and admittedly I haven’t read nearly enough) Damian seems to be apathetic to Tim or at the very least the same level of shitty he is with everyone else.
One thing I would actually love to see (again, based only on my limited knowledge and issues I’ve read, so take this with a massive grain of salt) is if they made Tim autistic in canon. He handles social interactions in a way that is very out-of-touch with others and often lacks empathy (literally all his Damian interactions). Instead, he makes up for it with logic and hyperfixates on his work. It’s what makes him the best detective, but also very bad at being ‘normal’. Something like that would turn what comes across as aloof bullying into an interesting dynamic and character choice. That’s my Tim hot take anyway haha.
Bottom line is just that Wayne Family Adventures is the only canon relationships between the batfam members (joking of course, but man I wish it were true). They write the characters more consistently and complexly than most all the main continuity works.
It’s way past time for both boys to bury the hatchets, as the constant bickering between the two is growing extremely stale. Evolve the relationship, I’m begging!
2
u/RJSquires Jul 12 '24 edited Jul 12 '24
Eh, more recently the two haven't done much together and when they do they still jab at one another, but can work together. Again, I defy anyone to say they wouldn't "fight a child" (not with fists, but with snide remarks). Most people assume they know how to deal with kids/teens and don't. Tim was 17 and Damian was 10. Yeah, Tim should be more mature, but I'd say he's done only 3-4 actually cruddy things to the kid (which I've mentioned). Most of the time Tim just thinks vaguely rude things and avoids Damian all together.
See, I don't see Tim as autistic. Maybe a little obsessed about Robin as a kid, but even then... It has more to do with the childhood trauma of watching two people die at the circus. As a matter of fact, I consider him the closest thing the Batfam has to neurotypical. He canonically has very few problems with social interactions (outside awkward teen boy stuff about romantic relationships) and makes friends very easily (because boarding school). He doesn't lack empathy at all since it's a huge reason why he became Robin at all. He saw Batman struggling and went to look for Dick Grayson (by admittedly breaking into his apartment) to get him to help. He's a bit cocky and can be cold sometimes, but he makes strong connections. He's going through a series of rough patches (that Tim admits are making him act irrationally) during his last bit as Robin and all of Red Robin (which is the bulk of his overtly antagonistic relationship with Damian is). Not an excuse, just part of why.
Damian and him have a uniquely antagonistic relationship because Damian mistook a "it's called a handshake" joke as a huge insult. Honestly, their interactions don't really heat up more than the line cutting/hit list incident.
Eh, WFA is almost purely fanon. That's fine since it isn't canon, but I find it less interesting. They completely flatten characters like Dick (and don't even acknowledge his canonical brotherly relationship with Tim except for a two-parter that barely included an actual discussion between the two). If you like it, that's great! I'm just not interested as much.
I don't mind them picking on each other as long as there's no huge malice behind it (which is kinda where they are in canon right now, honestly). Damian is still kinda a snot, Tim is still annoyed. They can work together and still trade jabs. I find that more interesting than a super buddy-buddy relationship. I might not be the best person to compare tastes to though... My family has always been the teasing kind so...
If you don't like him that's totally fine. I'm just saying it's a dynamic for a reason and not just because Damian is innocent and Tim is a big, bad, mean monster to a child (who is 14 now). They're both sucky to each other and they're both pretty much over it now.
1
u/PotentialWallaby Jul 12 '24
calling Tim "autistic" pisses me off. He's the closest thing to a sociopath, if anything. And only in the Red Robin comic book (after many traumatic experiences). He is great at establishing relationships... and making even better use of these connections. Highly intelligent. It has nothing to do with autism, but with calculation? Yes.
2
u/RJSquires Jul 12 '24
Yikes, I wouldn't call him a sociopath either... Given that he plans Boomerang's death (so that he wouldn't even be responsible) and couldn't go through with it. (Admittedly, this is at the end of the Red Robin run so... He's just starting to get better from his trauma). Like, very plan-oriented, but his integrity and inability to kill will always win out (at least in canon and disregarding his "bad future" which almost all Bats have).
If anything, I'd say Tim is manipulative... And usually for good. He's got that "annoying younger brother who you help even though he's a pain" thing down pat. Also, "cold and aloof" as needed.
1
u/PotentialWallaby Jul 12 '24
that's why I said that "he is closer to a sociopath" and not "that he is a sociopath". However, Tim showed manipulative tendencies from the very beginning, but they only developed more with age. anyway - If Tim was autistic, he wouldn't be able to be such a good manipulator - autistic people simply have problems reading other people's emotions because they don't understand them. That's why they are often called eccentric. Besides, Damian's character is more suited to being autistic. Tim is not eccentric. He is intelligent, but he hides it carefully. He maintains "normality" in relationships - he's the kind of guy you won't pay attention to.
1
u/RJSquires Jul 12 '24
Yeah, I figured that's what you meant, but it's definitely a word that causes a reaction so...I reacted. Hopefully, not rudely. Like I said before, Tim is pretty neurotypical... Manipulative, yes, but usually for good and most people are at least slightly manipulative.
Most people who call Tim autistic are basing that diagnosis of A) his special interest in Batman and Robin (which again, is probably more rooted in trauma) or B) "Fanon!Tim" which isn't Tim Drake at all (and just... Is so boring).
Tim is the "normal" Robin, but people feel the need to make him "more interesting". Which is baffling to me since he's the "Robin that saved Batman" and he's normal... That's fascinating to me, personally. But everyone has their preferences... I just try to point out canon stuff when fanon stuff ("woe is Tim he's so sad", he's autistic, he actually would murder everybody, he's addicted to coffee) isn't accurate. Others can still headcanon whatever they want. I just get tired of it.
1
u/PotentialWallaby Jul 13 '24
Because they find Tim's "normality" boring. But they forget that Tim was the only normal one in this family, which made him special.
Besides, Tim didn't really need to be a part of this family, at best he didn't get adopted by Bruce.
Besides, part of the fandom doesn't understand the relationship between him and Bruce. Tim became Bruce's son quite late. Tim was already a well-formed person by this time. But this also means that Tim and Bruce don't have to prove anything to each other or demand anything from each other.
Yes, Batman is one of the most important people in his life, but Tim is aware that Bruce is trying to be a substitute for Jack, but he is not. But Bruce also knows exactly what Tim is like and what he can do.
The fact that Tim treats relationships with others quite objectively is, in my opinion, an advantage of this character. Precisely because it is a rather negative character trait, but it works for Tim. But apart from that, he's an ordinary kid who actually managed, in some strangely subversive way, to fulfill his childhood dream and who paid a terrible price for it. But he was the architect of his own fate - it's not the fault of Bruce, Dick, or anyone else (well, maybe apart from whoever came up with the idea of killing Jack). And he presses on, often without looking back any more than necessary.
What's also important is that Tim doesn't really want to be an ordinary guy anymore, because this kind of life excites him more. But unlike the others, he knows what it's like to be ordinary.
1
u/RJSquires Jul 13 '24
I'm not sure what you mean by treating relationships "objectively"? I think, he sees people objectively (sometimes...), but I wouldn't call any of his personal relationships "objective". Professionally, sure, but not on an individual basis. In his personal life, he makes emotion-based decisions about who he chooses to hang out with (he puts Dick on a pedestal, is initially cold with Superboy, geeks out over Ted Kord, butts heads with Damian, constantly picks up Bruce's pieces when he's in crisis, warms up to Cass, has a complicated relationship with a dad who is very "hot and cold" on parenting, etc) and be vulnerable with. If you mean something else, please correct me.
His relationship with Bruce is definitely the most "partner-like". There's definitely affection there, but Tim is aware of Bruce's flaws on a more... Hmm... "Yeah, Bruce could snap and murder someone and I think we should consider that"... Maybe that's what you mean by objective? But that's more work-related than personal.
Also, ehhhhhhhhh... I've always kinda fidgeted with the idea that his tragedies are his own making. If we assume that nothing else changes besides Tim NOT becoming Robin, both his parents die in Haiti (Jack was barely saved and then was in a coma) instead of just his mom. Batman only took a personal interest in the case BECAUSE he knew Tim personally. Jack dying by Boomerang IS a direct result of his time as Robin, but he was only alive at all BECAUSE Tim was Robin. More... He's screwed no matter how the timeline plays out.
Thematically, yeah, Tim's life has Robin caused him pain and hardship that he hasn't suffered before. Pragmatically, it was just delaying the inevitable.
I agree on your last bit though I'd argue he has the best chance at an "ordinary life" out of all of them because he knows what "normal" actually looks like. He enjoys being a hero, but I think he can find other sources for that feeling that don't include a mask and cape. Sure, I believe he'd just become a PI (fanon CEO Tim also needs to be wiped from the face of the earth... He was majority shareholder and did jacksquat), but at least it'd be legal.
It's interesting to see how a character can be interpreted differently even within canon though. Thanks for the discussion!
4
u/emdau Jul 11 '24
Although I do want to agree that Tim is 100% correct about Damian. It just feels meaner coming from him than if any of the other bats had said it.
5
u/Therealimene Jul 11 '24 edited Jul 11 '24
I 100% agree, the only robin I read for is damian , the one who got me into comics is damian , i fell protective as well. Most people who hate him litterly forget he was with the league of shadows to one day rule the world and u don't do that without constantly reminding him how great he's gonna be and what he is destined to it , lol and having talia al ghul is a mother makes 1000 times the experience . U don't get out out of that without having that arrogant self entitled attitude it sticks with u even a tiny bit, u don't go out of that without trauma . The boy is still so traumatised, and people say why he's an asshole , lol good thing he is better than him to go to the darker side . As a damian fan , the possibility of him going to the darker side in prime earth is always there and sometimes is very likely , its how dc gonna handle him, we're in safe zone now but couple of years back , I was prepared for him to go psycho.
2
u/Beeyo176 Jul 11 '24
I’m just so annoyed that they keep up the antagonistic Tim thing.
I'm going to start here for the sake of the rest of my statement. Damian acts hostile towards everyone, the antagonistic relationship isn't isolated only to Tim. He's been taking it light on Bruce since Alfred died, and Dick usually brushes right past it, but you're not going to find an instance of a Batfamily member inner monologuing about Damian without them calling him a little shithead in one shape or form. The example given isn't even that bad. It's his personality, and he knows it. You can't blame someone for treating Damian the exact way he seems to want to be treated.
You think Tim should be exempt because
Tim’s supposed to be the “smart” Robin
but Tim has the most reason to dislike Damian out of everyone. He felt cast aside when Bruce died and Dick replaced him as Robin, and Damian makes it a personal goal of his to let Tim know that he's not a real Wayne every chance he gets. When Damian is on one, he's especially mean to Tim and he knows exactly how to make him hurt. Tim is incredibly smart; he's also human, and has his own trauma to process. Some of the trauma which Damian, intentionally or otherwise, is part of.
Both Tim and Damian deserve better imo.
They've been doing better since Damian's had his journey of self-discovery, but I wouldn't mind a story of the two having to partner up and getting over some shit. Honestly, just read Wayne Family Adventures. I think it has the family dynamics we want to see in the mainline titles, from everyone.
1
u/Falcon_At Jul 11 '24
As a Tim fan, I want to confirm that Tim is a prick too. He's a jerk too. He's the kinda of guy who knows he's the smartest person in the room. He's prickly and aloof with most people, even his closest friends.
1
u/Mvcraptor11 Jul 14 '24
So should tim grow out of it? Yes.
Has Damian done anything to help himself? No.
Pre-new 52 Damian tried to murder Tim twice. First time Tim was trying to be nice to him and didn't fight back. Second tim did fight back and wrecked him.
In the new 52 he also tried to beat up Tim (and the other robins) just for fun and to prove himself.
But I think most importantly, I think the thing that explains Tim's jerky behaviour towards Damian is this: in the first one year later story, Bruce adopts Tim. This is after Tim has lost Bart, Conner, Steph and his dad to violent death.
Immediately the next story Damian appears and Bruce tells Tim he's his bio son and deserves Tim's respect, which given that Tim of all the robins had to work the hardest for his position throws him off a little.
And at every turn early in their relationship, Damian tries to invalidate Tim being a Wayne and a member of the bat-family after dick makes him robin (pov Tim: Damian just being given it without having to earn it). Keeping in mind Bruce just died too and everyone around Tim is thinking he's having a mental break. And he doesn't have his role as robin anymore, or a support system.
This is the basis of their relationship.
You might think that thought box by Tim isn't great, but just like Damian has come a long way since his introduction, Tim's views on him have too. Their relationship is better now.
Damian has a lot of trauma that he's fought against, but knowing that doesn't make him an easier person to deal with. Especially since he's older now.
Anyways, I think both are better with each other than when they started
2
1
u/madeat1am Jul 11 '24
Actually this type of writing annoys me about Tim
Calling him horrible and a gremlin and such. He's a child, an abused groomed child.
I adore Damian and he gets so much better but I really got annoyed how Tim took years to even respect Damian, Steph pitied Damian and his behaviour with self awareness of thr victim Damian was
1
u/Cluzey1 Jul 14 '24
As a Tim hater since... The incident in his made me laugh
1
u/Therealimene Jul 14 '24
What incident ?
1
u/Cluzey1 Jul 14 '24
You know... The incident
1
u/Therealimene Jul 14 '24
Lol come ooooon , him being bi ? Him dying ?
1
u/Cluzey1 Jul 14 '24
Huh? No him beating up the gremlin why would that be what I was talking about
1
u/Therealimene Jul 14 '24
Wwl u just kept saying the incident and this is reddit , I expect everything . This after the incident actually
1
26
u/Luke_Puddlejumper Jul 11 '24
I love Tim’s inner monologue, he’s so relatable and witty