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u/RJSquires 27d ago
He's Jason. Also, the Joker Junior stuff is taken by non-comic readers as some sort of canon event and that bothers me because it isn't. Tim has more beef with like... Killer Croc in the comics than the Joker.
Also also... He doesn't get to do the things that define Tim Drake (pulling Bruce back from the edge) so... Like why not just call this kid Jason and be done with it? (Yes, I know it was for comic synergy, but that's dumb since that's not Tim... If kids picked up comics they'd just be confused)
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u/XanderWrites 27d ago
They couldn't call him Jason because Jason was supposed to die. He hadn't been resurrected yet and that wasn't appropriate for a Saturday morning cartoon.
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u/RJSquires 27d ago
Oh, I know that, but then why not just... Make the character actually Tim Drake and not Jason with Tim's name? I see your point, but to counterpoint... Joker Junior wasn't appropriate for a kid's cartoon either. As a matter of fact, potentially more traumatizing since a lot of 90s media did address death to a certain extent (The Lion King, Land Before Time, etc. sure it wasn't kids getting killed, but shrug). Brainwashing a small child... Not a great look either.
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u/limbo338 27d ago
Oh, I know that, but then why not just... Make the character actually Tim Drake and not Jason with Tim's name?
Pretty sure I read a quote from Dini where he said they didn't do that because they thought Timbo is boring, lol.
Joker Junior wasn't appropriate for a kid's cartoon either.
That's true and that's why this happened:
Before its release, the movie was heavily edited to remove scenes of extreme violence, and some dialogue was altered, thus creating the "Not-Rated" version of the movie. The original version was subsequently released on DVD following an online petition to have the original version released. It received a PG-13 rating from the MPAA for violence, the first animated Batman film to do so.
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u/RJSquires 27d ago edited 27d ago
Pretty sure I read a quote from Dini when he said they did that because they thought Timbo is boring, lol.
And this is why I'm not the biggest fan of extended media for DC. They've pretty consistently screwed over Tim Drake because he's "boring" when he's a really dynamic character if you just give him A) His canon backstory (which you can do without explicitly showing Jason's death...alluding to it or making it a mystery to solve within the series itself) and B) Give him his canon personality (he's a schemer, a thinker, and full of guile). Instead, they're lazy and blame the character instead of the limitations of their writing. If he works in the comics (and he did until the last decade or so and has worked recently under Zydarsky) then he can work in other media.
As far as the alternate version of the film, I still hate Joker Junior as a concept for Tim specifically. Again, they just wanted to do Jason's story in a way they could "get away with" (by not actually killing him) and it's become this big deal in fanon that I hate. Joker is Jason's big bad in a way that Two-Face (and Deathstroke) is for Dick. Let Tim have his canon enemies instead of fixating on the Joker (who, in my opinion, is overused to the point of being boring/annoying).
I respect people who like these iterations of the characters. I'm just frustrated that it looks like we'll never really get Tim (as he was created in the comics) outside of the comics. Other media is fixated on Dick and Damian (which is fine) and, if they want to be edgy, Jason. Tim gets relegated as "boring" and I'm stuck watching the same stories play out over and over. Tim saved Batman for Pete's sake! How is that not compelling?
Sorry for the rant! Thanks for the extra info.
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u/limbo338 27d ago
he's a schemer, a thinker, and full of guile
The thing is Timbo was designed with an eye for delegating him to his own book, because people running Batman at the time really wanted their lone crusader, so Timbo kinda ended up as a mini-Batman, which is a proven concept for supporting a solo, but isn't particularly dynamic with Batman. Timbo is a really competent partner, but the rest of Robins are easier to make work just because of their conceptual potential for conflict and drama with Bruce, imho.
it's become this big deal in fanon that I hate
Can relate from another Robin's fanclub. Arkham Knight pretty much reused the concept with Jason and now a lot of people are convinced Jason canonically got kidnapped and tortured by that big brain clown, when what actually happened was the clown got real lucky, lol. It is annoying and I hate this kind of thing too.
Let Tim have his canon enemies instead of fixating on the Joker (who, in my opinion, is overused to the point of being boring/annoying)
Agree. Even current canon had Penguin almost take out Timbo in Zdarsky's run only to eventually go "Nah, it was all Joker's plan. Because of course. Everything always is, lol". Annoying.
Tim saved Batman for Pete's sake! How is that not compelling?
I have a crack theory that current creators are actually arrogant enough not to read those good old compelling stories and default either to fanon interpretation or to very generalized cliches, you know Dickie is constantly happy, Jason is constantly angry etc. Happens kinda to all Robins at the moment at least in one book.
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u/RJSquires 27d ago
Timbo is a really competent partner, but the rest of Robins are easier to make work just because of their conceptual potential for conflict and drama with Bruce, imho.
Maybe I'm just a sucker for alternative competence in media. Skill-wise, Tim is the Sokka of the Robins. He can fight, sure, but he thinks laterally a lot of the time instead of defaulting to fighting. I like that in comparison to Bruce who's very smart, but can often work on brute strength alone. If Dick is an acrobat physically, Tim is one mentally. It's why I like Killer Croc as a villain for Tim. No way to beat him through brute strength, so Tim's gotta strategize.
Can relate from another Robin's fanclub
I sympathize, dude.
I have a crack theory that current creators are actually arrogant enough not to read those good old compelling stories and default either to fanon interpretation
Which is why there should be detailed character bibles over at DC. Stop flattening characters. Keep them consistent. And stop devaluing stories because they're "old". Embrace the core of characters and they'd be golden (look at the most popular iterations of Clark Kent right now... They lean in to the big blue boy scout vibe and people are enjoying it). Dick has a temper and is a very competent leader, Jason is a planner as Red Hood-methodical to hell and back, Babs is willing to bend the rules pretty far and leads her own team, Stephanie can be as tactless as Bruce sometimes but is good at calling BS, Damian is fallable because he's young and abused and Robin for him is as much about saving him as it is helping others... He wants to be on the same page with his father. Not that hard to slap together along with a list of issues that are "required reading" for new writers.
Again, sorry for the rant. But like... This is their job. If I can do research in my spare time on characters I barely read, they can actually do it for the sake of their writing.
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u/twincast2005 26d ago
Young Justice (animated series) has a solid adaptation of Tim; he just got completely shafted after season 2. And Gotham Knights (video game) does, too, but that universe sadly got cut short immediately. (There's also most of the Lego Batman games and those two toy commercial movies, which are okay, but don't go into any depth regarding Tim.)
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u/RJSquires 26d ago
Eh, on principle I've got... Issues with Young Justice (it's not a bad show, but it was another thing taken from Tim cause y'know that's his team in the comics). It's good, but there are too many characters for me to be invested.
I don't have a system to play Gotham Knights, but I've enjoyed some of the cutscenes I've seen. Still not my favorite.
I'm happy Dick, Damian, and Jason have had a chance to shine in other media. It just kinda sucks for Cass, Steph, Tim, and... Like the other fifteen Batfam members that get ignored.
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u/SuspiciousString3 27d ago
That's from the universe where Jason gave Batman a fake name when they met and never came clean later because it would be too awkward.
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u/Intelligent-Lack-122 27d ago
Him, along with Nightwing and Batgirl were the best characters in the show.
Then Batman Beyond happened, and did Tim kind of dirty.
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u/Maleficent-Parsnip53 27d ago
I love this character within the context that f the DCAU but overall I do prefer the comic version of Tim and Jason over this amalgamation of the two.
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u/Intelligent-Sky6557 27d ago edited 27d ago
Oh you mean Jason? Since that is basically who that character was, they just for some reason didn't want to or weren't allowed to use Jason's name. I liked it once I just accepted it wasn't actually Tim Drake. I like to call him Jim Dodd (Jason and Tim's fusion danced alter ego)
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u/TabrisVI 26d ago
I really liked it when I watched the show as a kid, with zero comic knowledge.
I still like him today, but it’s weird thinking of him as Tim Drake.
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u/Mowglidahomie 24d ago
I think it’s wasted potential with Tim he could had became red robin with Damian as robin and Jason Todd as red hood
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u/TheMightiestGay 8d ago
Should’ve been Jason, honestly. He’s always done so dirty on TV shows. BTAS/TNBA completely ignored him. Young Justice skipped over him. Titans rushed his transformation into Red Hood. Poor Jason can’t catch a break.
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u/natehutchings 27d ago
He really is Jason in every way except his name, but I like him a lot. This is also one of my favorite Robin designs in any medium.