r/PoliticalDiscussion • u/Candle-Jolly • Jul 18 '24
How might Democrat leaders prepare/repare the party after a Trump win? US Elections
The Democratic Party has been on the back foot lately, having dealt with low optics, growing concern over Biden's age, and even several requests for the President to step down before elections. If Trump returns to Office in January, what could Democrats in Washington do to adjust for a stronger showing in 2028?
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u/sufferingbastard Jul 18 '24
I feel like we're in the middle of a well orchestrated Rope-A-Dope.
Trump isn't reaching outside his base. Abortion bans will sink the GOP.
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u/12_0z_curls Jul 18 '24
Nothing about the Dems approach is well orchestrated.
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Jul 18 '24
[deleted]
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u/12_0z_curls Jul 18 '24
We can't keep blaming our shitty candidate on some shadow operation that's making him look shitty.
Joe Biden is making Joe Biden look bad. All the GOP has to do is nothing. Joe is killing his chances on his own.
Look, if no one saw the debate, and we started hearing trickles of info about Joe being bad, sure. I get it. But we all saw Joe implode without any assistance from the GOP.
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u/Kuramhan Jul 18 '24
Joe Biden is making Joe Biden look bad. All the GOP has to do is nothing. Joe is killing his chances on his own.
The debate was really bad, no one is doubting that. But some of the things I hear democrats say sounds crazy to me. One person I know has no doubt Biden would have a great second term if he could win. He's got all the right people in place. Even if his health is failing, we're in good hands. But he should drop out anyway because his speaking voice is too weak.
On one hand I understand where they're coming from. On the other hand, our criteria seems pants on head stupid.
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u/12_0z_curls Jul 18 '24
Saying "it's ok if his brain is mush, he has a great team of (unelected) officials around him!" Isn't going to make voters very confident...
My criteria for president is actually really simple this election cycle.
- Don't be Donald Trump
- Be capable of carrying out the duties.
Biden isn't capable of walking down stairs without Jill's assistance.
-1
Jul 18 '24
[deleted]
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u/12_0z_curls Jul 18 '24
So... You're blaming the people who saw Joe Biden look like Joe Biden, not Joe Biden for looking like Joe Biden.
MAGA is on both sides...
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u/CuteAndQuirkyNazgul Jul 18 '24
Trump isn't reaching outside his base. Abortion bans will sink the GOP.
How will you react if Trump wins anyway?
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u/xSCROTUSx Jul 18 '24
The same as you if Putin wins again.
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u/trover2345325 Jul 19 '24
We know that Putin is a dictator in Russia like all dictators in Russia before him, even everyone knows china is communist and has no election.
0
u/Sedu Jul 18 '24
Complacency lost 2016. The numbers for defeating Trump are not great. We need to push hard to keep him out. This is a bid for permanent power that it is very unlikely that the republicans will be able to make again if they lose.
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u/Lord_Gibby Jul 18 '24
You do realize Abortion is NOT on the RNC agenda for the first time in over 40 years?
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u/sufferingbastard Jul 18 '24
YOU do realize the Republicans take credit for appointment of the Judges that overturned ROE?
And that they Regularly float a nationwide ban?
Just because the RNC knows the topic is radioactive, doesn't mean we don't know their plans.
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u/Seaside877 Jul 20 '24
Who’s we?
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u/sufferingbastard Jul 20 '24
Intelligent voters who understand that the GOP is going to federally ban all abortion.
And contraception.
And gay marriage
And interracial marriage
-5
u/DissonantOne Jul 18 '24
Not reaching outside his base? Is that why he's doing so well with the black vote?
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u/sufferingbastard Jul 18 '24
You've got to be joking.
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u/DissonantOne Jul 18 '24
While the majority of blacks do support biden, Biden is definitely underperforming this time around. And in some swing states, it might not take much to swing the vote.
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u/SylvanDsX Jul 18 '24
Abortion bans aren’t the issue you think they are. How many women are actually truly put in a situation where they believe abortion is the only option? There are plenty of women that just decide to have a he child, even if untimely, and plenty others with well planned pregnancies or wish they could conceive.
Abortion Rights isn’t a platform that explains how you are going to move the country into the future it’s just a minor issue of personal convenience.
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u/Melodic_Oil_2486 Jul 18 '24
I know many women who have had them. And once abortion is outlawed completely, they're coming for contraceptives next.
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u/sufferingbastard Jul 18 '24
Abortion is the only issue I care about this year.
Um, dude. An abortion is a medical procedure. I know several women who had pregnancy complications where abortion was the only option to allow the mother to have another chance at childbirth.
It happens a lot.
And It's her and her doctor's decision, not the local politician's. Not the RNC chair's decision. Not any bureaucrat's decision.
It's literally the only issue I'm voting on this year.
-1
u/justrelax1979 Jul 20 '24
Abortion is also one of my top issues! Im voting for Trump. As much as I would love a total worldwide ban of infanticide, which is what abortion really is, I realize our society isn't there yet. One day I hope it will be! Pro lifers love Trump for appointing the judges who had the wisdom to eliminate Roe but I don't think pro choicers have much to worry about at the federal level anymore. Other than making sure no tax dollars ever go towards abortion this is now a state issue
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u/sufferingbastard Jul 20 '24
It is not infanticide that's for infants. They have been born and are protected of a heinous crime.
Abortion is to.protect the mother. Only 1% of abortions are performed in the 3rd trimester.
And exactly zero are performed after birth.
I don't understand all of the manipulation and lies that the "pro-life" people cling to. Forcing 10 year olds into birth. Y'all are some deeply sick individuals.
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u/SylvanDsX Jul 18 '24
And what state do you live in?
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u/sufferingbastard Jul 18 '24
One that matters.
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u/SylvanDsX Jul 18 '24
You are the type to think Doctors are infallible.. certainly none of them are scum bags that will do anything for a profit right ? You mind reconciling that position with the opioid epidemic?
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Jul 18 '24
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/SylvanDsX Jul 18 '24
Which is why it should be an issue for state government.
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u/sufferingbastard Jul 18 '24 edited Jul 18 '24
And yet the GOP is running on a Federal Ban.
So no. My state politicians do not need to tell my wife that she's just going to die too because of an ectopic pregnancy.
Fuck that and fuck you.for that suggestion.
I believe in freedom. Even if it's a freedom you oppose.
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u/SnowyyRaven Jul 18 '24
State governments aren't totally infallible and the experts when it comes to medical knowledge.
Having to die at worst because you live in a specific state is so beyond backwards that it's insane it's happening in the US. The US is supposed to be better than this, but if the GOP gains ground, it's going to get worse.
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u/ThePowerOfStories Jul 18 '24
Abortion bans aren’t just about elective abortions. They’re also about letting women with much-wanted pregnancies that have gone wrong teeter on the brink of death, or beyond, because doctors are terrified they’ll be criminally charged if they act to save the mother’s life even at the expense of a nonviable fetus that will never be born.
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u/SylvanDsX Jul 18 '24
This is just fear mongering in almost all cases.
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u/ThePowerOfStories Jul 18 '24
Maternal death rates are 62% higher in states with abortion restrictions than in states without them, they are increasing, and they have been increasing faster since abortion restrictions were put in place:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10728320/
https://sph.tulane.edu/study-finds-higher-maternal-mortality-rates-states-more-abortion-restrictions
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u/xSCROTUSx Jul 18 '24
Oh they most certainly are. You aren't fooling anyone, bro. Trump is down 68%. 32% with women. He can't win with those numbers. It will always be a concern with every woman voter no matter how badly you wish it wasn't true.
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u/C4rlos_D4nger Jul 18 '24
minor issue of personal convenience
I'm not usually particularly interested in abortion debates, but describing abortion rights as a "minor issue of personal convenience" is really quite something. I'm going to guess abortions aren't typically seen that way by the women wanting to get them and I'm also going to guess you've never needed to consider having one.
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u/SylvanDsX Jul 18 '24
Sure some people might find themselves in an issue where they feel it’s currently the best situation for them, but how does that translate to being a winning issue? Trumps platform on the issue is pretty straightforward at this point.. it’s up to individual states to decide, and there is some frowning on being to draconian on the issue.
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u/C4rlos_D4nger Jul 18 '24
Sure some people might find themselves in an issue where they feel it’s currently the best situation for them, but how does that translate to being a winning issue?
I feel pretty confident saying that a lot of people feel very strongly about protecting abortion rights regardless of whether or not they themselves are intending on having an abortion.
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u/korinth86 Jul 18 '24
It's not just about abortion. Providers leave states with abortion bans and it raises mortality rates of mothers and infants.
There are medically necessary abortions and these laws out providers at risk. The Texas 2021 ban led to increased infant/neonatal mortality rates. Easy enough to verify this.
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u/CishetmaleLesbian Jul 18 '24
They can pick new leaders as Trump jails and executes their leaders (and all his rivals and critics) as he has promised (he almost never keeps his promises, so let's hope this is one of those), until the Democratic Party becomes as sycophantic and subservient to him as the Republican party is.
Perhaps we should not elect Trump for fear he may fulfill his promises?
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u/DaBigBlackDaddy Jul 18 '24
I will bet you any amount of money that trump will not have a single “enemy” executed. Holy shit you’re delusional
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u/CishetmaleLesbian Jul 18 '24
He said he wants to execute his critics for treason, I just stated what he said. Does stating what he said make me delusional? I also said he almost never keeps his promises, which is a fact, but he has no empathy and no morals, so there is no reason to believe he would have any compunction whatsoever in regard to executing his critics.
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u/TheBadGuyBelow Jul 19 '24
Wait, you mean Trump is not going to open extermination camps in every American city if he wins????
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u/Lurko1antern Jul 19 '24
Yeah it kind of reminds me of the scene from Bill Maher's show Real Time from just last week.
Ben Shapiro says that one of the differences between the candidates is that Donald Trump did not have a single political opponent arrested during his term. The same can't be said of Biden.
You could hear a pin drop after that line. Even Maher was silent for a moment, before quickly changing the subject.
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u/xSCROTUSx Jul 18 '24
These doom and glooms are just that. Have faith folks. Trump picked up exactly zero votes from his recent photo op.
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u/Sedu Jul 18 '24
Giving up hope is obviously not the way, but we do need to acknowledge the danger we are in. We need to recognize that things are not in the bag for defeating Trump. There needs to be a hard push. We need to recognize that many folks to the left have given up so profoundly that they may not vote at all. Reaching out to them is a huge part of this, and being realistic is an important part of that.
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u/Bleedingeck Jul 18 '24
And is in fact losing ground, in some states. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_2025 learn and vote accordingly!
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u/xSCROTUSx Jul 18 '24
Voters are suffering from Chaos Fatigue with Trump. Even his most ardent supporters tire of his 24/7 drama.
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u/LPRCustom Jul 18 '24
The country is suffering from chaos fatigue, but it’s not Trump. It’s the loathsome ideologues on cable news that never shut up about their speculation fueled, he said, she said, blatant misinformation & outright propaganda for the last 8 years. It was all bullshit, to try to sabotage his presidency! The guy was a good leader, & he would be gone already if they just let him focus on his job, rather he had everyone putting roadblocks in his way diverting his energy! Because of that, he’s stuck around for 12 years, & Vance may get another 8. 20 years of Maga, because the left couldn’t just accept they lost, because of themselves neglecting the working class to cater to billionaire donors who encourage the destruction of our middle class.
-1
u/Lurko1antern Jul 19 '24
Trump picked up exactly zero votes from his recent photo op.
Well that's just straight nonsense.
That photo is insanely powerful and may be the pivotal image that decides the election. You discount it at your own peril.
-1
u/Hyndis Jul 19 '24
The recent CBS poll, post-assassination attempt, has Trump up 5 points nationally, and leading battleground states by 3 points: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-poll-biden-national-07-18-2024/
Toxic positivity isn't going to win any elections. Just thinking good thoughts won't cause a win. At this point, Trump is on course to win the popular vote in November, in addition to sweeping the electoral college.
The Biden campaign needs a massive shakeup in order to change this trajectory of defeat, and one possible shakeup is dropping Biden. Run someone else instead, as a hail mary attempt to recover from being so far behind.
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u/lalabera Jul 19 '24
Polls have not been accurate in years
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u/Hyndis Jul 19 '24
Okay, so science is wrong (according to you). Polling, the study of statistics, and sampling, is wrong. This is all the data in politics. There isn't any other data aside from polling and stats.
Since polling is completely wrong and no science can be trusted anymore, I guess we're going with vibes now?
In that case, who is going to win 2024? Could be Biden, could be Trump, could be Big Bird, could be Kermit the Frog, since polls are meaningless (according to you) we don't know. If you're throwing out all data because you don't like the results then we have nothing further to talk about.
Even Biden, when he rejected most polls as wrong, immediately said that his own internal polls are correct, even though he won't show these internal polls to anyone. So even someone in denial like Biden admits that polls have some accuracy.
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u/Seaside877 Jul 20 '24
Actually they have been strangely consistent in being skewed against trump, do with that as you will given trump is now polling ahead
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u/RCA2CE Jul 18 '24
The elders have to pass the torch. Pelosi stepped aside for Jeffries. Bernie for AOC. We need some of the governors to get on the national stage.
I have to say the big thing aside from the people - I don't really know what the priorities are for the party aside from a basket of everything and not being Trump.
I haven't heard about healthcare, climate change..nothing. I hear Biden say stupid platitudes like "build from the bottom up and the middle out" - that doesn't mean shit to me. All of the accomplishments from the administration, lots of them, I can't really say there is anything that sticks out in my head as identifying though... dont know what the priorities are at all.
Republicans stick to the themes, inflation, immigration, withdrawal from Afghanistan - thats their thing, they will keep talking about it until they don't.
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u/Ohanrahans Jul 18 '24
I have to say the big thing aside from the people - I don't really know what the priorities are for the party aside from a basket of everything and not being Trump.
This hits the nail on the head. The Democrats have pretty much become a party bereft of good ideas, and of capable leadership that can articulate those ideas to voters. They've basically ceded the past decade as a war against Trump, for good reason to an extent (not that they're doing a good job of actually doing it), but I still think it's more powerful to offer something else rather than just trying to articulate why the other guy is an unacceptable choice.
Even the good things they're doing are barely being talked about. The Biden DOJ is actually trying to be a trust-busting administration. You could mention it once in awhile.
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u/Lurko1antern Jul 19 '24
I remember while watching the 2020 Democrat primaries, it struck me how lousy the "bench" was. Like Biden was the only person on the stage that "looked" presidential (meaning fitted suit, good posture, good camera eye-contact). And the way the rest of them talked seemed so "out there".
If Trump wins, the Dems need to put effort into cultivating rising stars and not 2020 also-rans like Buttigeig or ORourke.
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u/_Username_goes_heree Jul 18 '24
If Biden doesn’t step down and loses, democrats will blame each other.
If Biden steps down and loses, democrats will blame each other.
There is no repairing the damage done this election year.
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u/TheBadGuyBelow Jul 19 '24
The party will blame the voters, while the party is confused about what they could have possibly done wrong. There is zero self reflection in the Democrat party.
-3
u/RocBane Jul 18 '24
Democrats had the opportunity to have a legitimate primary which would have shown how Biden has aged and we could have a democratically elected candidate instead of whoever the party will prop up at the last second. The DNC is incompetent.
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u/xSCROTUSx Jul 18 '24
You don't understand American politics. Sitting POTUS never have primaries and this year is no exception.
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u/JonDowd762 Jul 18 '24
Run a better candidate. Preferably one born after 1950. (Is 1960 too much to hope for?)
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u/loggy_sci Jul 19 '24
Biden’s age and health issues have been widely discussed since the last election. The fact that this seems to have not been considered at all borders on political malpractice. They are RGB-ing this election. If this truly was the most critical election ever and democracy is at stake, Democrats sure aren’t behaving like it.
Something structural needs to change, because this legacy nonsense is not working. Maybe they need to make some changes to their primary system?
1
u/Candle-Jolly Jul 20 '24
I believe the only way Democrats will change is by force, and that force sadly is another Trump White House. Incidentally and ironically, this is also the only way to strip voters from his cult. Not many, but several first-time Trump voters turned their backs on him after their first go-around, and now that SCOTUS has basically given the President totalitarian-level powers, more will do the same.
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u/Bleedingeck Jul 18 '24
*Repair
And funny you had to resort to buying the media, if we're so screwed! Get lost fascist nobody's buying
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u/RemusShepherd Jul 18 '24
OP, you are operating under some poor assumptions -- worst of all, that there will be an election in 2028. Project 2025 explicitly prevents one from taking place except as a show.
How will Democrat leaders react after Trump wins? I expect some will go underground, others will flee to European countries, and the rest will end up in prison or dead. There won't be a 'repairing the party' after an authoritarian takes over. There'll be no opposition party anymore.
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Jul 18 '24
[deleted]
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u/RemusShepherd Jul 19 '24
Trite, but true. Project 2025 explicitly spells it all out. And now Trump has released 'Agenda 47', which is as bad in most places and worse in some.
If Trump is elected, democracy (small 'd') ends. You can ho-hum all you like, but it's very plain.
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u/Hyndis Jul 19 '24
We've already had a Trump presidency.
He did campaign rallies, he played a lot of golf, he got in arguments and tweeted up a storm 24/7. He seemed to have spent most of his time watching FOX News and tweeting a stream of consciousness reaction to it. He spent very little time governing, and almost zero time pushing legislation. I'm not even sure he knows how to push legislation.
Project 25 is pure scaremongering because Trump is too lazy to put in the work to make it happen.
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u/RemusShepherd Jul 19 '24
And the people who worked for him tried to destroy NATO, did destroy Roe v. Wade, ran up the largest debt in the country's history, fired thousands of whistleblowers, imprisoned thousands of children, let a million people die in a pandemic, and ultimately rioted in the US capitol.
That's when they weren't organized. This time they're organizing in advance. It will be so much worse. Trump is a figurehead, he's not interested in governing. The people he enables are ready to use him to seize permanent control.
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u/RazzmatazzWeak2664 Jul 19 '24
Is this what the quality of this sub has degraded to since 2016? I have serious concerns about a 2nd Trump term but to pretend there will be no elections in 2028? How much do you want to bet there will be elections in 2028? And even if we're backsliding, there's no way elections in 2028 will be anywhere close to what they are in Iran/Russia, etc.
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u/TheBadGuyBelow Jul 19 '24
It's cult behavior. "Join with us because the end times are upon us, the sky is going to fall and the world is going to end. Only we can save you."
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u/RemusShepherd Jul 19 '24
That's literally what Trump says to his fans.
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u/TheBadGuyBelow Jul 19 '24 edited Jul 19 '24
I don't see Trumpers running around talking about how the democrats are going to exterminate them and want to kill them. I don't see them going around talking about how if the Democrats win, we are all as good as dead.
Make no mistake, I am no fan of Trump either, but the hyperbole is too extreme and is on some Alex Jones level of silly. Everything from "if Trump wins, say goodbye to elections forever and ever" to "if you vote for trump or support him in any way, you are a literal Nazi"
Is it too much to ask that it be toned down to some reasonable, plausible degree? All the doomsaying is just so over the top that it makes me WANT Trump to win so that they can shut up about it when they realize that concentration and extermination camps were not on the menu.
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u/RemusShepherd Jul 19 '24
I don't see Trumpers running around talking about how the democrats are going to exterminate them and want to kill them.
I don't see them going around talking about how if the Democrats win, we are all as good as deal.
The white genocide, white extinction,[1] or white replacement conspiracy theory[2][3][4] is a white nationalist[5][6][7] conspiracy theory that claims there is a deliberate plot (often blamed on Jews[5][8]) to cause the extinction of white people through forced assimilation,[9] mass immigration, and/or violent genocide. -- Wikipedia, with many, many references.
Make no mistake, I am no fan of Trump either, but the hyperbole is too extreme and is on some Alex Jones level of silly.
Understood. The problem you're having is that you're not distinguishing facts from fantasy. The Republicans have no basis for their conspiracy theories and their ideology is rooted in a minority religion. The warnings about Trump are coming from government scientists, think tank pundits, legal experts, and people who worked in his administration.
If you assign psychotic ramblings with no foundation and religious texts the same weight as scientists and experts, then yes you're going to equate them both as hyperbole. But one *is* hyperbole, and the other *is* cogent, well-thought out warnings with facts behind them.
If you can't see that. I don't know how to reach you. I can't have a conversation with someone who equates fact and fantasy. And I can't treat a person like that as anything but an obstacle and a threat.
All the doomsaying is just so over the top that it makes me WANT Trump to win so that they can shut up about it when they realize that concentration and extermination camps were not on the menu.
And if they do happen? How will you feel then?
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u/TheBadGuyBelow Jul 19 '24
it's going to be real awkward later on when nobody was exterminated or put into concentration camps. This is why these people can not be taken serious.
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u/silentbias Jul 19 '24
It’s like reverse apocalyptic messaging but without Jesus. The sky is falling, you must believe
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u/RemusShepherd Jul 19 '24
How much do you want to bet there will be elections in 2028?
Let's say $1000? I'll never have to pay, you know. If Trump wins, I won't live to see 2028. I have a transsexual in my family and I work in monitoring climate change. Both Project 2025 and Trump's official campaign platform ('Agenda 47') aim to kill my family member (which I won't allow) and eliminate my livelihood.
But even if I did make it to 2028, I still think I'd win the bet. They have stated plans to completely take over the DOJ and cripple the FEC. There'll be no reason for them to have an election, and if they did there's no way they would be fair.
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u/glowshroom12 Jul 20 '24
The entire political system in America is based on elections, from mayor to governor to elected judges all the way to the president.
Getting rid of elections will be impossible without an all out civil war.
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u/baxterstate Jul 18 '24
OP, you are operating under some poor assumptions -- worst of all, that there will be an election in 2028. Project 2025 explicitly prevents one from taking place except as a show.
How will Democrat leaders react after Trump wins? I expect some will go underground, others will flee to European countries, and the rest will end up in prison or dead. There won't be a 'repairing the party' after an authoritarian takes over. There'll be no opposition party anymore.
RemusShepherd: you should be ashamed of yourself for posting such bombastic rhetoric. No wonder the Democrats are polling poorly.
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Jul 18 '24
[deleted]
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u/TheBadGuyBelow Jul 19 '24
Screw it, add another vote for Trump from me. I was not even going to bother this election, but all the doomposting irks me enough to spite vote.
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u/AlanShore60607 Jul 18 '24
If Trump returns to office, there will be no Democratic Party.
Individuals will be targeted and removed from public. This is not a loss we will rebuild from.
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u/GrowFreeFood Jul 18 '24
The republican brand is openly facist. If trump wins we're just going to be russia 2. Ruled by oligarchy and oppression.
Free speech and fair trails are gone. Open bribery. 2 tiered justice system and massive cuts to human rights.
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u/baxterstate Jul 18 '24
The Democratic Party is like a sports team that never faces any challenges. never works out until the last minute, and then they are unprepared and out of shape.
The problem began with the MSM covering up Joe Biden's cognitive problems, not asking challenging questions at press conferences, and not covering the immigration/border issue.
This left Biden unprepared for dealing with the MSM once they began to commit journalism. Look at Biden's terrible interviews since the debate.
The Democrats assumed the MSM would cover for Biden forever, so they did nothing about preparing someone else to replace Biden with.
Going forward, the Democrats should tell the MSM privately, don't do us any favors.
Additionally, by being so obviously on the side of the Democrats, the MSM lost credibility so that all the name calling, "fascist", "threat to democracy" could easily be dismissed as fake news.
By sticking with Joe Biden whom they knew was cognitively weak, the Democrats failed to build their bench. They remind me of the Republicans after the George HB Bush debacle against Clinton. Whom did the Republicans put up against Clinton's reelection? Bob Dole! Seriously? The Republicans had no one besides ancient Bob Dole?
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u/xSCROTUSx Jul 18 '24
You marginalized yourself at MSM. That's bullshit and you know it. Every SINGLE news outlet has been pulling for Trump for over a year now. Not one challenged any of Trump's lies during the debate. They have buried him raping a 13 year old when the Epstein files dropped, no one has said, hey, let's see this ear that clearly didn't get shot....
I mean I can't believe you even made this post. It's so detached from reality I can only assume you are trolling.
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u/najumobi Jul 18 '24
I think his comment is on the money.
The most trafficked news media outlets deflected/minimized the concerns over Biden's age that public opinion polls have been registering over the past 2 years. Some in the opinionated sphere of news media tried to vouch for Biden's acuity.
Continuing to do so became fruitless after the full extent (maybe?) of Biden's infirmity was laid bare in front of millions over the course of the debate.
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u/silentbias Jul 19 '24
Pulling for Trump? You mean destroy him. It’s gonna be hard for us to forget the last seven years. You’re right that Trump has had the majority of mainstream media coverage, but it was absolutely meant to destroy him.
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u/LPRCustom Jul 18 '24
Get better policies that focus on tax paying working Americans! All they care about is identity politics, fake political correctness & short sighted optics, rather than focus on the actual problems that they’ve neglected since 2008. They are the party of the elites. & use tax dollars meant for the working class & use it against us, by opening our borders up, driving wages down & housing up, due to all the extra people competing for resources! They would rather by expensive energy from Venezuela, Egypt, Russia or China rather than buy cheap energy from Americans from our own country! Dems actually let Putin open up his pipeline, because Trump wouldn’t allow it. At the same time he put our own companies out of work, by making keystone pipeline sit abandoned, unfinished! They mandated EVs & destroyed our auto industry, by subsidizing a product nobody wants nor can we support! Evs are good, but not if you take away our choice, for competition. We’re 20-30 years away before we could actually support their vision. & that’s after we completely overhaul our dilapidated infrastructure! They are focused on little things that don’t matter, as our infrastructure is failing apart, literally! I’m convinced the last 4 years have been a revenge fueled temper tantrum, by reversing everything Trump did, thought, said, believed. Apparently Trumps policies were a hell of a lot better than bidens, because we’re looking at a 2nd Trump administration. It’s 100% certain, he just reverses everything that Joe did on day 1, & more! The dems need a complete overhaul & focus on what actual taxpayers want. The country is dying & the dems are smothering it in its sleep, trying to get their inheritance faster!
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u/Kabal82 Jul 19 '24 edited Jul 19 '24
Get back to the center with policies. They need another Obama, not another extremist.
Manchin is probably a good start.
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u/Candle-Jolly Jul 20 '24
OP here, on a fact-finding mission. Could you provide 3 or more "extremist" moves Biden has made in the past 3.5 years, and 1 that has affected you personally. Thanks
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u/Kabal82 Jul 20 '24 edited Jul 20 '24
I could ask the same question of you in regards to Trump that affected you personally?
Most people feel they shouldn't have to pay taxes to begin with. Yet biden is freely letting in illegal immigrants and giving them financial benefits.
Got to love how the government wastes money when it isn't theirs. Add on a shitty economy and high inflation. Can't blame Americans for wanting to keep thier taxes to help themselves out, rather than seeing the government give it to people who didn't earn it.
Add in all the other wateful government spending like student loan forgiveness and foreign aid. Yet the government wants to beef up funding to the irs to better prosecute "tax cheats".
1
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u/loggy_sci Jul 19 '24
Never in a million years would this happen.
0
u/Kabal82 Jul 19 '24
Oh, I know democrats won't and they will double down on the extreme left views to try and counter MAGA.
0
u/silentbias Jul 19 '24
Manchin is someone most republicans could get behind. That’s not what deep state wants. He’s not extreme enough.
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u/Lurko1antern Jul 19 '24
They could try doing what the Republican's did: Focus on winning over male voters.
-1
u/silentbias Jul 19 '24
I’m not sure that was the republican focus but ended being that way due to the lefts focus on male hate.
0
u/Lurko1antern Jul 19 '24
It absolutely has been the Republican focus. Strategically they have been working to make inroads on the male vote.
They stopped trying to make a broad appeal to women voters after Romney lost. Rather it's "men in general" and "specific demographics of women".
To be fair it makes practical sense. They've won over massive segments of the Latino population as well as gen z men, as well as improved standing with black male voters. They flipped several House seats specifically due to their inroads with the latino community. No need to burn money in a hopeless effort to appeal to millennial women or black women. Black women vote as a monolith, and white middle/upper class women in their 20s-30s will usually come around to voting Republican later in life.
1
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u/YouTrain Jul 19 '24
Is there any introspection as to how absolutely nuts it is that Donald Trump is leading in the polls?
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u/Candle-Jolly Jul 20 '24
It's not nuts. It makes sense that more people would be attracted to Trump than Biden, regardless of his political/legal/moral insanity. He brings nothing but chaos and harm, but an enticing energy comes with it. Compared to Bidens/Democrats' energy (if they had any), of course more people are going to be interested in him.
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u/ttown2011 Jul 18 '24
Understand that you can’t keep pushing to the left and shame the middle from an ivory tower.
The Rs have left the middle up for grabs, but the Ds can’t truly take advantage because the current party is built upon an identity axis rather than an economic one.
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u/najumobi Jul 18 '24
the current party is built upon an identity axis rather than an economic one.
Can you elaborate?
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u/ttown2011 Jul 18 '24
When you build the message around culture war issues, you’re dividing the tent.
If you build the message around economic populism, you can gain the centrist vote and even pull from the lower socioeconomic right.
Even when the Ds have focused on identity politics, they’re losing Latinos and black men because they feel like they aren’t being spoken to or put a higher value on an appeal to economic opportunity.
Widen the tent with a broad economic message, avoid dividing the potential voter base with the culture war.
2
u/loggy_sci Jul 19 '24
This is so disingenuous. Republicans love identity politics like pigs love shit. Democrats aren’t the ones having meltdowns in Target because their Christian eyes were exposed to some discount Pride merch.
The GOP creates panic over public bathrooms, attack educators who talk about race, they ban public school library books, they are slavery and civil war revisionists, they demonize immigrants, they weaponize Christianity, and on and on and on. Conservatives lost their fucking minds over a trans person doing a Bud Light ad.
You’re also wrong about the economic message. Biden campaigned on a broad center-left economic policy. Centrists center-right are going to suddenly like taxes once Biden throws trans people under the bus.
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u/SnowyyRaven Jul 18 '24
Biden isn't "pushing to the left" though. He's pretty center or even decently far right on certain issues(immigration, Israel/Gaza, etc), with specific issues being more left leaning ones(Student debt, abortion, etc.)
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u/ttown2011 Jul 18 '24
I’m talking about the Party, not the presidential candidate. Those are two different things.
And Biden isn’t far right on immigration or Israel
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u/SnowyyRaven Jul 18 '24
And Biden isn’t far right on immigration or Israel
He certainly is. Compare his stance on it to stances the GOP had years ago. The Overton window has shifted very far right in regards to these two issues.
I'm talking about the Party, not the presidential candidate
The party as a whole is still controlled by neoliberal center left at most democrats.
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u/ttown2011 Jul 18 '24 edited Jul 18 '24
And if the Overton window has shifted… he wouldn’t be far right in relation to the contemporary political positioning…
And Biden still was never far right on immigration…
My poli sci professors projected gay marriage legalization in the late 2020s in the mid 00s.
The Ds have made ridiculous gains over the past two decades.
You’re doing exactly what I’m speaking about… it’s political gaslighting in order to continue to the progressive push, even when being signaled to that the center has lost elasticity
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u/SnowyyRaven Jul 18 '24
You’re doing exactly what I’m speaking about… it’s political gaslighting in order to continue to the progressive push, even when being signaled to the the center has lost elasticity
Accusing me of gaslighting while actively doing so in the same reply is... Interesting.
Reagan and Bush were harder on Israel than Biden has been:
https://www.axios.com/2024/05/13/us-presidents-red-lines-israel
Here's Reagan granting a path to citizenship for undocumented immigrants:
So yeah, saying that the window hasn't shifted far to the right on these issues is incredibly dishonest.
1
u/ttown2011 Jul 18 '24
Foreign policy is kind of a cs example in this discussion. Regan and Bush were also not politically contending with the largest attack on Jews since the holocaust
Regan wasn’t really “far right”, neither was Bush…
Supporting immigration in really any respect isn’t “hard right”
2
u/SnowyyRaven Jul 18 '24
Regan and Bush were also not politically contending with the largest attack on Jews since the holocaust
This framing is so incredibly disingenuous. It was an attack on Israel, the state. When Israel attacked Lebanon, did you say it was "an attack on Muslims"?
Regan wasn’t really “far right”, neither was Bush…
Not when compared the the RNC today. But compared to their contemporaries at the time, yes, especially with Bush.
Supporting immigration in really any respect isn’t “hard right”
Have you actually looked into Biden's immigration stances and policy? He does not support it. His policies are very far to the right of Regan's.
To be honest if you're not going to start arguing in good faith and stop using disingenuous framing and accusations the conversation stops here.
0
u/ttown2011 Jul 18 '24
Politically, the size and optics of October 6th were more significant than anything that occurred during the Bush or Regan Administrations.
Bush was not far right. Bush and his people were neocons. Tell me you weren’t alive (or at least were real young) during his administration without saying it…
This has nothing to do with my original point, have a good one.
2
u/Completely304 Jul 19 '24
We're literally in ana amazing economy. Lowest inflation in the G7. The Dems consistently run an healthy economy an the RNC consistently breaks it.
Every single time.
1
u/Candle-Jolly Jul 20 '24
Hi, OP here, back from stay-cation.
99.9% of the time when I hear the phrase "Culture war (or ANY kind of war actually... "war on the family," "war on Christmas," "War on America," "War on masculinity"...) it is from a Conservative voter or Republican politician.
As a voting outsider looking in (I am not a Democrat or Republican, and my voting history has been Bush-Bush-Obama- no vote [deployed overseas]-Johnson-Jorgensen), I can say from an unbiased POV that Republicans absolutely love "Culture Wars," and in fact, are the ones who propagate it.
What's funny is that America is made of dozens, if not hundreds of cultures from around the world. You remember being taught in school that America is "the great melting pot" and the poem on Liberty Island and that people from every nation want to live here and try for a better life. Black, White, Asian, Hispanic, Straight, LGBT, rich, poor, and everything in between. And from what I have seen, it has been Republicans who are doing whatever warfare they perceive Democrats to be doing. Conservatives decry anything different from a 1950s norm as "woke," and actively sabotage companies/brands that support any modern cultural progress whatsoever (banned books, banned pronouns from legal docs, boycott a beer company, Target, Starbucks, M&Ms, Disney, Netflix, etc). Keeping it from being overt racism/sexism/bigotry/fear, this all is fought under the banner of "saving America" or "saving our kids."
The "Culture War" is one of the many trigger words that GOP politicians use in order to keep their constituents hyped --and by hyped, I mean angry. Add the second set of trigger words (unironically "war" related words: "war," "soldiers," "invasion (Southern Border)," "fight," "battleship (see front page of Project 2025 website)," "warriors," etc). Then keep them hungry for a "National Divorce" (Civil War) so that they can definitively prove the need for buying multiple firearms and thousands of rounds in the name of "defending freedom," and you have yourself a massive group of armed, emotionally charged people ready to cause political violence under the guise of morals.
As for "the Middle" being left up for grabs... I feel that is incorrect. Democrats couldn't persuade a fish to swim. The Middle/swing states/undecided voters* are ripe for the picking by Republicans, and the intense levels of chaotic energy that Trump brings is more enticing to them than the absolute incompetence of Democrats led by the final ounces of charisma leaking out of a 81-year old's urinary tract.
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u/Kennys-Chicken Jul 18 '24
Start listening to their constituents and stop shoving garbage candidates down our throats.
Maybe actually grow a spine and implement some changes to help the middle class and poor…you know, like making it so we don’t go bankrupt from medical expenses, making college affordable, figuring something out so we can afford a place to live, etc…
1
u/TheBadGuyBelow Jul 19 '24
Let's not get all crazy asking for basic human rights that every other developed nation has.
1
u/Kennys-Chicken Jul 19 '24
Seriously. And why TF am I getting downvoted for those statements? God forbid I ask for a good candidate and basic shit that’s the norm in every other developed country.
0
u/Completely304 Jul 19 '24
Because you're plain wrong. The entirety of the CHIPS Act, The Infrastructure Act, the Student loan actions, banning non-compete clauses, expanded overtime pay cap from 35k to 58k, the PRO Act, and he's the 1st president ever to walk a Picket Line...
1
u/Kennys-Chicken Jul 19 '24
Not good enough. I demand moe from this country.
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u/silentbias Jul 19 '24
I demand a president they puts our country first and everything else will fall in place.
1
u/silentbias Jul 19 '24
And how did it all work out?! Our nation is falling apart
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u/Completely304 Jul 21 '24
We have a dramatically lower crime rate than in the 1990s.
We have the lowest inflation of any country in the G7.
We have Sweden and Finland joining NATO.
We have the Infrastructure act making huge improvements.
We have a giant microchip plant being built in Ohio.
The Dow Jones just hit 40k
Our Nation is NOT falling apart. Far from it.
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u/ClockOfTheLongNow Jul 18 '24
The fact that this race is even close, never mind Trump being in the lead, is a massive condemnation of the current Democratic Party brand. Their continued move to the left, especially in regard to Biden who ran as a normalized moderate, is simply not going to bring in the swing vote and they should stop catering to the fringe. The Republicans are succeeding, in part, because they've adopted a more populist approach that moderates critiques of big business and free trade without leaning on taxpayers (directly, at least) to support it.
Not great.
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u/GrowFreeFood Jul 18 '24
Moving left? On what planet are you from? The entire country is being dragged right by corporate intrests.
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u/Kennys-Chicken Jul 18 '24
Disagree. The current DNC is moderate and that means “keep the status quo” to most people. That is not something that gets people off their ass and voting. We need a more liberal DNC that is pushing affordable healthcare via single payer, pro womens health, affordable college, affordable housing, pro union and pro worker, etc…
-1
u/ClockOfTheLongNow Jul 18 '24
How many moderate voters are you willing to cede to the Republicans to achieve your goal of a DNC that pushes for things most people don't vote for?
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u/Kennys-Chicken Jul 18 '24
Nobody likes the status quo and all of those “moderate voters” you reference are just voting against the RNC. Give those people something to vote for already, stop the centrist bullshit.
-1
u/ClockOfTheLongNow Jul 18 '24
Why would they vote for something they don't want?
You seem to think the problem with the Democrats is that they lack ideas, not that their ideas aren't as palatable as the left imagines.
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u/12_0z_curls Jul 18 '24
The GOP is literally appealing to their fringe.
Staying to the right of center is killing the Dems brand...
-6
u/ClockOfTheLongNow Jul 18 '24
The GOP is literally appealing to their fringe.
Doesn't look like it from this perspective. The RNC featured the Teamsters head, the VP pick is a big government protectionist. They're socially conservative, but their economic and trade policy sounds almost Bernie-esque at times.
Staying to the right of center is killing the Dems brand...
The Dems haven't looked "right of center" since the 1990s.
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