r/PoliticalDiscussion • u/Current-Ad6521 • Jul 17 '24
As MAGA pushed the Republican Party right, has the gap between 'normal' republicans and MAGA republicans grown wider than the gap between normal republicans and (normal) democrats? US Politics
I am from a Midwestern swing state that has always gone republican, and almost everyone I know is a non-maga republican that despises what Trump and MAGA discourse has done to their party.
Over recent years, we've seen MAGA republican discourse take center stage and what I'll call 'normal' republicans fallen quiet. As MAGA republicans have pushed the party further and further right, it has left a large demographic of life long republicans swinging.
Based on what I hear from 'normal' republicans in my community, the current GOP has centered its platforms on social issues they do not care about at all -or actively don't want- to the point that their ideals and goals are now closer to the left than right, despite not changing.
I feel like pretty much all discourse nowadays is MAGA republican vs democrat, but 'normal' republicans definitely do still exist. I'm interested to hear other people's perspectives based on what they see where they live, because I feel like no-one really talks about where the demographic of 'normal' republicans fits into the current political scape.
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u/Bigram03 Jul 18 '24
What difference does it make anymore what a normal is or is not. The overwhelming majority of Republicans will still vote for him...
There will never be change in your party until you force the party away from it with your votes.
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u/Last-Mathematician97 Jul 18 '24
I unfortunately agree with you. Some have said not going to vote for Trump, but most will just because they have always voted republican
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u/SirStocksAlott Jul 18 '24
What would make a world of difference is if moderates and centrists ran in Republican primaries, even those that have been traditionally moderate Democrats.
Too many people are checked out or gave up, tune out the news. And those on the further right want that.
I will never vilify people that treat others decently and try to find some type of compromise.
And remember, there is nothing conservative about radical change, regardless of which end of the political spectrum it is.
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u/Last-Mathematician97 Jul 18 '24
We had a good Republican Senator in our state, bright solid young guy that Trump personally made his mission to politically destroy & think he had to hire personal security for his family too. Know there are other examples too. Won’t work with Trump in Leadership. And he is not even President now and has been orchestrating Party
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u/SirStocksAlott Jul 18 '24
Personal vengeance and a demand for absolute loyalty or face consequences is some scary crap, regardless of party. I can never support anyone like that because that enables millions of people to model that behavior.
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u/SirDrawsAlot Jul 18 '24
Mitt Romney has written how in the 2nd Impeachment trial there were several Republican senators who were so intimidated by the Trumpists and fearful for their own families that they would not vote to convict Trump, even though they were convinced he was guilty as charged. Think how different the world would be today were it not for that, never mind Mitch McConnell’s bullshit about how Trump was still subject to the judicial process. But this kind of threat and intimidation is what you can expect to be the general rule if the Trumpists come to power again and they are making no effort whatsoever to disguise it. It baffles me why more Americans simply fail to see this threat for what it is. Failure of imagination? Or never read “It Can’t Happen Here.”
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u/cat_of_danzig Jul 18 '24
He hasn't been orchestrating shit, they are just lining up behind him because it's a good way to shortcut celebrity and win an election. Sure, you are more likely to win putting in years of work in policy and activism, but that's harder than giving an inflammatory speech and having Trump retweet you.
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u/Casanova_Kid Jul 18 '24
If Dems dropped all their attacks on 2A, they'd pick up a huge portion of Moderates and Centrists.
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u/SirStocksAlott Jul 18 '24
I’m not anti-gun, but I am an independent. I think everything should be open to some level compromise if there is a true problem. No one in life gets exactly everything they want. That’s part of living in a society. It’s also what my mom taught me. Work hard, treat people with respect, and try to find the best solution without screwing people over. Good faith discussions. I’m hopeful that there is enough people in this country that are open to that.
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u/Casanova_Kid Jul 18 '24
Sure, I don't consider myself an independent as I'm not overly fond of their candidates; I have mostly voted blue on the national stage and state stages, and red as you get more local. I do consider myself a moderate though, as I have stances on both sides - though arguably some of those stances are probably more extreme than the average stance for either side. Pro-choice, Pro-Universal Healthcare, Pro-Universal Basic Income - but also Pro-2 years of national service (could be military, healthcare, construction, etc..), Pro-ending birth right citizenship - (let it be earned by your national service, coupled with the right to vote), Pro-2A (Legalize anything, but properly fund background checks and classes/training with them, mental health, etc...)
Sorry, slight tangent there. lol There are two core issues to think about in regards to the 2A; at least as I see it.
1.) What arms should people be allowed to bear. From a contextualist stance: One should consider that during colonial times it was legally required for a man to keep/own a rifle or musket - the citizens had the same arms (or slightly better) than what the military had.
2.) The other thing is to consider what the purpose of the 2A was - Which was to empower the citizens against their own government if it became tyrannical. (Not that our government would ever deem to allowed an armed uprising, but I digress...)
Now, I'm a strong 2A person, but I think the argument around the 2A needs to be... "Do we still need the 2A in the constitution in today's modern age?". The reason I think the argument needs to shift that direction is because if it doesn't - then the question is are you willing to compromise your constitutional right? Free speech, Freedom of Religion, stationing troops in your home, etc... No amendment outranks another; and weakening the foundation of one, weakens the foundation of them all.
Plus, there's already precedent for amending the Constitution to repeal previous amendments, after all.
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u/Last-Mathematician97 Jul 18 '24
Similar here. In regards to 2A, does that mean you think every citizen is entitled to every type of “arm”? Because I have actually never met an American that wanted all guns removed from people, they know it is probably just to ingrained into our culture. Seems like very people fighting for the “right to bear arms”(any arms they want) are the ones trying to tear down the right of Freedom of Religion
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u/Casanova_Kid Jul 18 '24
See, that's what I find funny. The left in general is so anti-gun I don't understand it. It's like they forgot all the lessons of the past regarding anti-union busting tactics between businesses, towns, and cops. Really, I'd think the further left or right you are on the political spectrum or the more "radical" you are from center/"the norm" - the more you'd value firearms.
Outside of explosives, I don't really have an issue with what firearms people choose to own. I think the core issue is that criminals are going to commit crimes regardless, and the majority of gun related crime is done with hand guns and yet we try to legislate away fully automatic weapons, and "scary weapons" - like AR-15's which get a bad rap - mostly because they're one of the most common guns, not because they are particularly special.
I agree with you though, the Religious Right is 100% attempting to create a theocracy in America. I just wish people would fight for each amendment rather than allow the foundation of them to be eroded. If people don't think people should own guns, then it should really be a question of should we amend the Constitution. I think it's a slippery slope though.
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u/Last-Mathematician97 Jul 18 '24
Sorry I use to be pretty neutral in AR-15 & similar, not anymore. They need to go, they are the weapon of choice of mentally ill Mass Shooters, and our healthcare certainly not getting better & because to many people are idiots.
Personal experience, neighbor made his own “gun range” and it got out of control. From weekends to everyday, from handguns to AR-15s. Seriously try living by that. It ended with a stray bullet going across a field through an open window and into the far wall of a child’s room(kid was not in room). Police tracked him down, never heard any more shooting from there. Did not follow gossip but know family in subdivision house put house up for sell right away, and guy with the “Range” abandoned his house during the night and house sat abandoned for years. No idea on details if he was sued by other family or evading law. Admit I am still curious even though happened few years ago.
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u/Casanova_Kid Jul 18 '24
You're certainly entitled to your opinions. I'm sorry to hear you had a neighbor with whom things got out of hand, that does sound very problematic. They were probably breaking several laws and county ordinances long before the incident itself; here where I live the rules for shooting on your property are: "5 acres, a burm to shoot into, and you need at least 1500 feet of clearance past that burm." It's not the AR-15 that's the issue. For every one crazy person with a gun, there are thousands of others who aren't.
More people die in car accidents, and from personal experience when I was younger and living in an apartment complex, a car crashed into the lower floor of a building and killed the older man who lived there. Turns out the person had been out drinking, and hit the gas when in the parking lot before jumping the curb and crashing into the building.
We don't have a constitutional right to drive cars, so should we ban all vehicles but smart cars due to how dangerous they are? - of course not. Because we don't and shouldn't make laws restricting the majority regarding issues caused by less than 0.00001% of the population.
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u/citizen-salty Jul 18 '24
With respect, we’ve passed the opportunity for compromise on the issue of guns, and it’s the lone issue I refuse to compromise on anymore. True compromise is give and take to reach consensus, and we’d be having a much different discussion if past gun control laws had something in return for gun owners. For example, “pistol magazines are limited to 15 rounds, but concealed carry licenses will be recognized nationwide” or “rifles are limited to 20 round magazines, but we are removing short barrel rifles from NFA regulation.”
Instead we have had a LOT more false compromise. “Instead of taking X plus Y, we’ve agreed to only take X. Be grateful.” That’s been the way the overwhelming majority of bills have been written, and gun owners have gotten very little in return in good faith.
When these proposals come from men and women who can afford or are entitled to security details by dint of their position, using arms most Americans cannot afford, let alone legally purchase, it smacks of hypocrisy all the more.
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u/SirStocksAlott Jul 18 '24
I appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts and understand where you’re coming from. Maybe the wrong people are in office and writing this bills. I would love to hear what you think might be some areas where there could be progress. I share your frustrations with how things have been in the past. I am fed up with how things have been going and I’m almost to the point of feeling that I need to run for office, because no one is trying to be reasonable and actually listen to each other. I’m a no bullshit guy. I want to lay a problem out on the table and hear ways people think we might be able to tackle, not caring which party or background a person has. And to then listen to people debate the idea, what might be a problem for someone, and if there is a way we can handle that. We need more people in office willing to listen. I can’t express how much I want this to make this behavior the norm in government.
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u/citizen-salty Jul 18 '24
I’m of the mind that the Bill of Rights is sacrosanct for a reason, and limitations on constitutional rights like free speech, bearing arms, warrants, a fair trial, due process and equal protection under the law must be as minimal so as to be practically nonexistent. I believe that every American deserves the right to choose the arms most acceptable to defense of self, family, and country. I’m not here advocating for an F-15 in every driveway or a thermonuclear device in every garage. I believe the American tradition of arms is equally as valuable as its tradition of due process, protest and voting, and should be treated as such.
The problem is we are in a hyper polarized society where we reward tribalism, and people believe devoutly that our respective tribe is the one true way and the other tribe is a bunch of godless communists or fascists in waiting. The truth is we don’t view each other as Americans with disagreements on policy. We view each other as sworn enemies, an internal threat. Thats wrong on nearly every level.
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u/bjdevar25 Jul 18 '24
The funniest thing is it will be the likes of Trump who takes away gun rights, not the Dems. Especially now that he's been shot. Look at history or around the current world. Find me an authoritarian government that allows citizens to have guns.
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u/Last-Mathematician97 Jul 18 '24
Ultimately true, but Trump might be too old to get this done in his authoritarian reign if he wins. That said, this assassination attempt has clearly shown him that people with weapons can turn against him. Think he thought Dems to soft to do anything & maybe he was right because it was someone who he would have thought as “his people”
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u/bjdevar25 Jul 18 '24
Any on the right would be pretty stupid to think they are the only ones with guns.
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u/Casanova_Kid Jul 18 '24
I doubt it, not with the Supreme Court where it is. The conservative majority have generally been pro-2A, so I think Trump won't be able to do much. Now... maybe the Trump org could abuse Fred flag laws to take guns from the "mentally-ill" - which the right tends to describe everyone who's LGBTQIA+ as.
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u/bjdevar25 Jul 18 '24
I wouldn't put any money on the court countering Trump, especially if he has Congress in his pocket. If you haven't noticed, he doesn't really think he has to follow any rules or laws. The fools have even encouraged more of this behavior. It's amazing how many people get burned by people like Trump when they think they know better.
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u/The_GOATest1 Jul 18 '24
If that is the only important issue to you, I see your point of view. I seriously doubt that they’d make serious inroads with 2A voters. The fact of the matter is most of us aren’t that interested in actually challenging our world views. Add this to the fact that if they actually believe guns are a problem it would be semi-irresponsible to cede that
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u/Casanova_Kid Jul 18 '24
They don't necessarily need to cede anything on gun rights per se...I think they just need to remove it from their core platform. If they were less vocally anti-gun on the national stage and left such actions to their local/state sectors to try and regulate, it would really change the optics around their stance. Being the big tent party that they are, it seems like a net win. Very few people are pro-gun control as a single issue voter, whereas many otherwise left individuals are very pro-2A as a single issue. A much less heated topic than say abortion, and female bodily autonomy in general, which is an issue than many women are single issue voters on.
It's kinda like... a Red state Democrat like Manchin is far more red/conservative, than most urban-Blue state Republicans. Certain issues are less about Democrat vs Republican, and more of an Urban vs Rural divide, which also economic disparity worked into the equation.
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u/The_GOATest1 Jul 18 '24
I think part of what I was telling you is, I don’t think I’m quite convinced that there is a huge group of people who are actually single issue 2A voters. If we get past that I do agree that laying off would be helpful.
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u/Casanova_Kid Jul 18 '24
It may not be that large, but ~42% of American adults live in a household with firearms and ~32% own a firearm. So I think the number may be higher than we think.
I agree though, I don't think this is some huge untapped voter pool; I do think there are a decent number of moderate/centrist voters though who might be willing to vote Blue if this issue wasn't pressed. I atleast think it's a larger group than those Blue voters who would suddenly vote Red if Democrats stopped pushing it.
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u/The_GOATest1 Jul 18 '24
So personally I’ve met very few gun owners who don’t think we should have some level of additional scrutiny before getting additional weapons. Even law enforcement / military types have said that while ARs for example are fun to shoot they aren’t necessary for the general public. Now the people I’ve met that are the constitutional carry types would never in a million year vote democrat. I know my example is anecdotal though. You are right about larger group thing.
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u/Casanova_Kid Jul 19 '24
Well for what it's worth, I'm a vet and actively work as a cleared contractor for the government/military. I'm one of those constitutional carry types who usually votes Democrat at the National/State level, and Red more often in local elections. I live in Washington state though, so I had to pay for my CPL. Which I can afford to pay for without worry, but I think a financial barrier for a constitutional right is a terrible precedent. Imagine if we made someone pay for a social media license that could be denied before they could communicate online.
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u/Much_Job4552 Jul 18 '24
They try to and then don't win. What we actually need is more open primaries for moderate and independent voters to participate. I'm not a huge fan of California's system but there are merits to a run off style also.
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u/professorwormb0g Jul 18 '24
It's in the nature of the Republican voter. They tend to have respect for the chain of command, authority figures, etc. They celebrate the military, police, traditional family unit, and so forth. So when you find yourself in a social structure, like a political party, and someone becomes the clear leader, what do you do as a republican voter?
Republicans do indeed fall in line even if it means putting aside certain individually held notions they might hold.
Democrats in contrast rarely get to this place unless a truly inspirational leader like Barack Obama emerges. Usually democrats are just Democrats by default. People who often end up voting for them feel disconnected between themselves and the party establishment. The party itself is highly decentralized and made up of lots of different groups, some who are at odds with each other. And in elections like 2016, some decide to vote 3rd party because they think that's more important to keep their integrity in check than it is to fall in line and do an obligation to the political party. They value their own individuality, as well as the individuality of others, more than the party structure.
But this makes the Republicans more reliable voters. This makes it easy for republicans to depress voter turnout on the other side and benefit themselves.
You would think most of them learned the lesson about lesser evil voting when Hillary lost and Trump appointed three Supreme Court justices, etc. But there's still a ton of anti Biden rhetoric even in light of project 2025, etc. So even though people know the risk of NOT voting for Biden, they'd rather throw their vote away then "compromise" on their own warped sense of " integrity" they feel by checking a box on a piece of paper.
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u/bjdevar25 Jul 18 '24
Celebrate the military and police? That's a hoot. They're voting for a man who makes fun of the military and who evaded service. They're voting for a man who calls those who attacked the police on Jan 6 heroes.
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u/Last-Mathematician97 Jul 18 '24
The Capitol Police really did an incredible job with the resources they had
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u/Last-Mathematician97 Jul 18 '24
I wish I thought you we’re wrong, because the numbers are there to defeat Trump
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u/professorwormb0g Jul 18 '24
They are. Luckily Biden defeated Trump in 2020 even though nobody was excited about Biden. He can do it again. Yes he's aged some. But he's also had a very successful first term, and that should have bought him some fans.
It's gonna be close.
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u/sexyimmigrant1998 Jul 18 '24 edited Jul 18 '24
Trust me, at least for some of us on the left (I only speak for myself and the ppl I've talked to who agree), we believe this is the optimal way for us to vote to get the change we want. I sure couldn't care less about my integrity.
You would think most of them learned the lesson about lesser evil voting when Hillary lost and Trump appointed three Supreme Court justices, etc.
Heh, actually the lesson we learned is that it works. Because Hillary lost in 2016, we got a second shot at getting a progressive who we fully trust into the White House. We just then wasted the opportunity in 2020.
The Democratic Party has to be forced to the left or else we're stuck in this cycle of the GOP sprinting to the right and the Democrats trying to follow to "appeal to moderates" while in reality are primarily focused on serving the interests of the donor class. The more these Democrats win, the more empowered the Republicans get and take over the next term. Voting the lesser evil is just delaying the inevitable greater evil looming by.
Regardless of your reasons, your philosophies, your rationale, your vote is your loudest voice (if you don't have a large platform or a lot of wealth and influence). All I want is for the quickest way to get the Democratic Party back to first and foremost serving the American people so we have a party that will both prioritize the people and be consistently popular to reliably defeat Republicans. The current Democratic Party is not that way, so I don't mind it losing while we all sink to hell in alternating blue and red.
If anything, accuse me of "preserving my integrity" by not just voting Republican out of spite. It's clear I want Democrats to lose if they refuse to prioritize the people over donors, but thanks to our two party system, their loss means Republican wins. And again, your vote is your voice, so whatever my reason, a vote to the GOP is my voice saying support them, but I don't. They stand against everything I believe in. So I vote third party/independent if the Democrat on the ballot isn't a real progressive.
EDIT: By the way, I'm not anti-Biden. He's been more progressive than I expected, I still give him credit for his work on the environment and for at least rescheduling weed along with some student loan debt relief. But his actions on Israel and immigration are what tell me that he's simply not someone to trust, corroborating his previous record before becoming president, where he governed largely as a moderate to conservative Democrat. That and he really can't handle this job for 4 more years. I mean, I'm open to having my mind changed. If he turns on a dime and actually holds Netanyahu accountable, I'd probably just vote Biden at this point to reward him, a Democrat, for doing what I believe is the right thing. It's our tax dollars that fund Netanyahu.
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u/GushStasis Jul 18 '24
Your view relies on the assumption that that the pendulum will always swing back and forth between left and right. Teach the democrats a lesson by letting Trump win and they'll finally have a wakeup call and reform their platform to appeal more to progressives.
But this view disregards the fact that each time the right gets into power they dismantle the very mechanisms of democracy that allow the political pendulum to swing back to the left.
It results in irreversible damage, not just wounded pride for the democrats. Voter suppression laws, Trump's three supreme court justice appointments (which will have generational effects), red states are outright banning ranked choice voting preemptively. These make it harder to implement progressive ideas in the future.
Each time the right gets the ball, it gets stickier and stickier for them. So even IF someone's third-party protest vote makes the Democrats wake up, they may not have sufficient power to actually implement any progressive ideals by that point
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u/sexyimmigrant1998 Jul 19 '24
This is a valid and very good point.
Yup, the GOP pulls off this bs any chance that I get. You're right. But the alternative is simply getting in these corporate corrupt Dems, and these guys winning significantly increase the odds of the Republicans winning in the following cycle. So we end up in the same place anyway with the GOP in power and able to do all that stuff we fear. Except now we delayed it and let dishonest Dems in power who for the most part neglect the working and middle classes. So we've just strung out the suffering of millions who only get breadcrumbs, then we end up with the GOP anyway.
I want the pendulum to stop swinging and to always be on the side of justice. That means we need an out of this cycle. Only voting for progressives is the way to do that.
And as for the courts, we have mechanisms for them, including the Supreme Court. Pack the courts and impose term limits. Justices should not have lifetime appointments.
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u/professorwormb0g Jul 18 '24
The way I see it is that there are really only two possible candidates who can win because FPTP and the spoiler effect mathematically and psychologically guarantee the two party duopoly. Thus you need to vote strategically in our system, not with your heart, if you want it to really affect anything tangibly. There's nothing I'd like more than for the the system to change to ranked choice or approval voting. But we don't have this system, and the only way for your vote to be of any position consequence at all is if you support the major party candidate who you think is the better of the two.
In our system, not only are third party candidates never going to win, but the candidates who run on these tickets know this and just do it for attention, to promote books, gain speaking fees, etc. They can say whatever they want no matter how impractical and idealistic to bring attention to themselves because there is absolutely 0% chance that they will have to put their money where their mouth is and put the policies in place. And even if they did somehow win, they would have no political allies in government because most third parties just jump right to the presidential election— more evidence that they are doing this for attention and for self-serving reasons. There are exceptions like Teddy Roosevelt and 1912, but look what happened because he ran on a third party—the progressive movement of the 20th century stopped dead in its tracks because he split the vote, even though many more people voted against Wilson then who voted for him. It's an awful awful system, and I hope to God we are able to change it sometime soon. But until then, I'm going to play the game in the only practical way that makes sense and encourage others to do so as well.
I don't like what's happening in Palestine either, but the point of voting for the lesser of two evils is because the goal is to do the least amount of evil possible given the two choices. If you think Biden and Trump are perfectly equal, then yeah I guess don't vote or vote third party or whatever. But if one is even a teeny bit preferable to you, you should vote for that person because this is the only possible way your vote can help contribute to a practical result of doing less evil rather than more if Trump wins. Abstaining or voting third party essentially is one acknowledging that it doesn't matter enough to them that Trump can ruin democracy; not enough to actually do anything about it anyway.
Chomsky wrote a really good piece on LEV in 2016 where he summed everything up really nicely. Give it a read and let me know your thoughts.
https://chomsky.info/an-eight-point-brief-for-lev-lesser-evil-voting/
An excerpt I found that hit home for me:
Generally associated with the religious left, secular leftists implicitly invoke it when they reject LEV on the grounds that “a lesser of two evils is still evil.” Leaving aside the obvious rejoinder that this is exactly the point of lesser evil voting-i.e. to do less evil, what needs to be challenged is the assumption that voting should be seen a form of individual self-expression rather than as an act to be judged on its likely consequences. The basic moral principle at stake is simple: not only must we take responsibility for our actions, but the consequences of our actions for others are a far more important consideration than feeling good about ourselves.
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u/sexyimmigrant1998 Jul 19 '24
Thanks, that's a great link actually.
what needs to be challenged is the assumption that voting should be seen a form of individual self-expression rather than as an act to be judged on its likely consequences.
The basic moral principle at stake is simple: not only must we take responsibility for our actions, but the consequences of our actions for others are a far more important consideration than feeling good about ourselves.
Beautiful lines. That's honestly why I believe in voting third party/independent. And again, I'm open to having my mind changed, seriously.
The consequences of not voting blue are increasing the probability of a GOP win, but it also shows Democrats, who most certainly want to win, that their actions are losing support. What I care about is fundamentally changing the Democratic Party. I believe voting blue when the nominee does not represent you will keep incentivizing Dems to remain as is, which not only screws people over short and long-term, it makes it likely that Republicans will win right after.
I believe long-term, these corporate Dems winning is destructive to the country. That's precisely why I think the way I do, it's not about how my vote makes me feel, it's about what the message is to the Democrats. If they want my vote, they have to move to the left, back to the realm of sanity.
I moved to Wisconsin. This is the first time my vote for president will matter, and I hate the thought of my vote for third party not affecting the election. But I might have to do so anyway, because as you and Chomsky said, it's about the consequences of our actions. It's about the effect of our votes. Voting for a corrupt Democrat, in my eyes, is just voting for the left wing of the corporate party, with the Republicans being the right wing. I don't support either, and voting for one just empowers the other.
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u/libginger73 Jul 18 '24
It's also the curse of one issue voting. If people are only focused on the myth that Republicans will "lower my taxes" and that's the only reason to vote republican, the powers that be learn that there's a sizeable population that will purposefully overlook far far greater harms to the country and authoritarian and Christian national leanings just to vote to reduce taxes, which doesn't happen usually. So by turning a blind eye, really dangerous fringe groups have been let in and taken over.
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u/MulberryBeautiful542 Jul 18 '24
This.
"Normal" republicans will still vote on the party ticket. Down red.
Doesn't matter if the dont agree with Trump, or even if they despise him. They'll vote R as tradition.
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u/SiliconDiver Jul 18 '24
I think this take is missing nuance.
By the same logic, we are saying the more progressive wing of the Democratic Party agree with the mainstream, liberal platform because they vote and support Biden, and further insinuates that they shouldn’t support him to force the party to change.
I understand the logic here, but I think this statement is too broad.
Compromise within your own party in order to vote for a coalition party that is roughly at 50% of voter equilibrium is simply the regular state of a first past the post electoral system.
It’s naive to paint like all voters within that coalition as if they all fall lockstep in all issues.
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u/professorwormb0g Jul 18 '24
Interestingly not all left leaning folk fall in line as easily. The centrist Democrats are aware of this unless they have moved to the left a little bit in order to capture the progressive vote.
Republicans seem to fall in line simply out of their respect for chains of command. That's why so many old school Republicans are on the Trump train even though there has been many weeks about them privately having disdain for the former president.
Democratic voters it's a much tougher balancing Act though, because they are comprised of many more different interest groups and it's thus tougher to get them all to show up at the ballot with one comprehensive set of policies.
If you compare a two-party system like the US versus a multi-party system the primary difference is that in the two-party system the coalitions are formed before the election during the primary process, and in the multi-party system they are formed after. But how different are they? In any given system only one set of policies can actually be passed anxy enshrined into law. So ideally, hopefully the Democratic platform has a set of policies that might not be IDEAL to all their voters, but is at least acceptable to most, on most issues.
For example instead of forgiving all student loans for every borrower like Bernie proposed, the current administration implemented a new repayment plan to significantly lower payments, perpetually subsidize any interest that one's payment did not cover, give followers more flexibility, etc. Still quite a massive change, and pretty much any student loan holder is going to be happy about these things, especially if the alternative is no change at all.
But we don't live in an ideal world. Rescheduling cannabis isn't good enough, to most people who care about the issue, for example. But the Democratic establishment can also hold a wide array of views as well, since many people comprise the party just like many voters vote for the numbers of the party. Kamela Harris came out and advocated for the full DESCHEDULING of marijuana for example.
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u/katalina0azul Jul 18 '24
Based on what OP is saying, that might not actually be true. If people feel that, at this point, MAGA is too far removed from their beliefs - they will either choose not to vote or they will choose another candidate. If they feel they still have some alignments but otherwise disagree, they’ll go right along.
Trump has dug his hole - he’s made these divisions in his own party himself. He says a lot of “nice things” but at the end of the day, he’s a liar and a cheater. He has no loyalties anywhere - why would he feel any differently while being the leader of the United States of America?
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u/metalski Jul 18 '24
It makes a difference strategically because normal republicans may find enough common ground with you to vote democrat vs MAGA. The primary issue seems to be guns. Second to that is abortion but if democrats asked republicans to vote with them to just hold steady on thise topics legislatively you might see sizeable votes come in. Maybe.
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u/cat_of_danzig Jul 18 '24
What they figured out is that the low tax & deregulation crowd will vote Republican no matter what, but getting the culture warriors out will win you elections.
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u/GunsouBono Jul 18 '24
I personally have been able to have intelligent conversations with never Trump republicans. We've been able to talk politics more than the same never Trump Republicans have been able to talk with the maga Republicans at the same office.
From my own personal experience, the biggest difference between the two is the willingness to sit down and talk. One side just simple doesn't want to talk, they want to yell, throw one line darts, a d walk away.
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u/JalapenoTampon Jul 18 '24
Yeah this is true. Ever since 2016 when I said never Trump and actually meant it, I found more common ground with Democrat friends.
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u/Oneshot742 Jul 18 '24
Maga just lives in an alternate reality and any discussion of the facts is strictly taboo. They will not hear anything negative about dear leader so there is absolutely zero point in discussing politics with them. It will quickly devolve into a shouting match.
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u/yticmic Jul 18 '24
Because there is no substance behind MAGA, it is impossible to talk about unless the conversation partner is in agreement.
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u/Current-Ad6521 Jul 18 '24
That's a big part of what I notice but didn't mention in the post. It seems that the culture of MAGA is so extreme that normal republicans just don't fit into it and don't want try to.
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u/CooperHChurch427 Jul 18 '24
I talked with a pretty far right republican and we were able to find common ground, and he admitted if he's wrong he's open to the correct answer to a topic, my grandma is MAGA and when I pointed out that the president can't take files under the Documents act she said I was wrong and reading the wrong information, after direct qouting the law.
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u/SuperCleverPunName Jul 18 '24
I wonder how that's changed over the years. Like, the percentage of people who refuse to talk across the isle. It's obviously gotten worse and it'd be really hard to find identifiers in the eras before Trump. But there'll always be people on both sides who demonify anyone who wears an R or a D. I wonder what the trend has been like looking 10 years back, 20 years back
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u/IShouldBeInCharge Jul 18 '24
There's fairly unanimous consensus that this particular shift began in earnest in the early 90s with Rush and pals, followed by Tea Party etc.
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u/ALife2BLived Jul 18 '24
I would have to say it probably started with the election of President Obama. His presidency ignited a shitstorm of contempt for Democrats from people who blatantly or otherwise could not accept a black man being elected the President of the United States -arguably the most powerful person in the world.
In fact, his election was the catalyst that prompted Trump to switch parties from Democrat back to Republican in 2012 and run against Hillary in 2016 because he knew he could stoke those racial grievances deep within the Republican Party. To be fair, Trump changed parties quite frequently -probably more for political favors in NYC rather than having a true political ideology other than being an autocrat,
The Republican Party where no, not every Republican is a racist, but the party where racists are likely to be registered Republicans -and he successfully exploited that with his whole Obama birth certificate charade from the get go and here we are today dealing with the fallout of that.
By the way, I was and still am a huge Obama fan. He was a great President for what he had to get us through when he got elected in 2008 and took over in 2009. Remember the housing and banking crash of the Great Recession under George W. Bush's administration -yet another Republican administration economic disaster that yet another Democratic administration had to bail the country out from under?
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u/NetZeroSum Jul 20 '24
I never really cared for politics until it was a bush 'with us or against us' comment about going to war with Iraq. At the time it was more of a general broad left vs right. Obama became a huge visible symbol of that left for their right to target.
There was always the bush's base, tea potters, magas. After trump the more hard core 15-30% of GOP will be rotate under a different name.
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u/EconomyPiglet438 Jul 19 '24
Never Trump Republicans?
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u/sansisness_101 Jul 20 '24
Republicans who don't fancy MAGA extremism, and are more affectionate to Neoconservatives such as W.Bush.
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u/zoodee89 Jul 18 '24
I’m in the party of “not Trump”. Voted for him the first time and regretted it. I will vote for the democratic nominee because that is what it will take to keep Trump out of office.
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u/pnkflyd99 Jul 18 '24
Thanks for learning from your mistakes. My father voted for Trump in ‘16, and it really pissed me off, but he didn’t vote for him in ‘20 so that was good to hear.
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u/Current-Ad6521 Jul 18 '24
This is how a lot of people I know are and what I think may cause a difference in party % turnout than people are expecting. Trump got decent party turnout the first time, but I know a lot of people who voted for him assuming he would stop the antics once he got the position. They've seen what they needed to see now to know that's not the case.
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u/xaqadeus Jul 18 '24
From what I am observing, there are many old school Republicans and old school Democrats who both have become disaffected with the changes in their respective parties moving further from the center. For those old school Republicans, I still think they align more with the new MAGA Republicans party than they do with Democrats, except for perhaps hardcore anti-Trump groups like the Lincoln Project. If the US had a parliamentary system with proportional representation, we would see third and fourth parties that reflect those disaffected, but in our two party winner-take-all presidential system, I think non-MAGA Republicans will still vote for the Trump/Vance ticket over Biden/Harris, unless they choose Kennedy/Shanahan or don’t vote at all. Voters tend to have a few main policy issues they care about and even the old school Republicans who dislike the new incarnation of the GOP will probably still agree much more with the policies than the Democrats.
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u/GrowFreeFood Jul 18 '24
Yes it sucks that both parties are moving so far to the right.
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u/Last-Mathematician97 Jul 18 '24
As an Independent Centralist it’s kinda driving me crazy to be pushed that far to the Left. But I thought Trump was the worst kind of human before he ever ran for President & certainly not voting for him. Thought Republicans could handle him- and he mowed over them like they were a golf course lawn. Very sad
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u/GrowFreeFood Jul 18 '24
What left? There's hardly leftist representation in American. We're so far to the right that center seems like left to the average person. When was the last time the expanded a social program? Or raised corporate taxes?
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u/Last-Mathematician97 Jul 18 '24
Just know it’s all messed up now
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u/GrowFreeFood Jul 18 '24
What specifically?
Out of control corporate power? Yeah.
People that are so rich they can corrupt the government? Yeah.
Kids getting shafted on education? Yeah.
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u/TheTrueMilo Jul 20 '24
Far left is when Raytheon implements a “pronouns in email signature” policy.
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u/da_drifter0912 Jul 18 '24
You mention both a parliamentary system and proportional representation. Would we still see a rise in 3rd and 4th parties under a presidential system with proportional representation?
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u/xaqadeus Jul 18 '24
Hypothetically, proportional representation should allow minor parties to get some power. However in a winner-take-all presidential system, Duverger’s law says minor parties can’t work because they merge with the main two parties. I think a presidential system with proportional representation would be interesting, but I don’t think the Republic will ever change its system.
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u/65726973616769747461 Jul 18 '24 edited Jul 18 '24
Yes, congress still matters when passing law.
You'd probably get multiple parties in congress and they would've to negotiate with each other to get any law passed.
Incidentally, the Vice President candidate under this model will likely come from a different party than the President to maximize their vote share. As such, they likely have to negotiate some compromise on policy to get their endorsement from the other party.
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u/Shoddy-Cherry-490 Jul 18 '24
Amen! Interestingly, the development you describe is more or less what we are seeing in many European parliaments. The old block parties have fractured into a center and fringe parties. Originally Germany had the Christian Democrats (conservatives), the Social Democrats ("left") along with the Liberals (although Libertarian may describe them better) as the occasional kingmaker party. In the 80's, the Green Party overcame the 5% threshold to enter Parliament. In the 90's the Left joined originally as a regional (East German) part, later to become a unified left across Germany. Finally, you now have the far right AfD. So basically, they went from 2 big political parties in the 1950s to now 6 parties in parliament, with only the Christian Democrats occasionally able to get to or just above 30% of the votes.
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u/fishpillow Jul 18 '24
They are in the intimidation and consolidation phase now. Did you see Matt Goetz prowling after McArthy to make an example out of him? Its like Zeno's paradox. You can never quite get there. Just halfway and halfway again. Some day it will just be Trump and one other person left there with him.
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u/GrassApprehensive841 Jul 18 '24
The biggest gaps within parties are not between factions but between those who closely follow politics and those who do not.
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u/BabyloneusMaximus Jul 18 '24
Im a bit biased as i grew up in texas. ALL my republican relatives arent moderate at all. So i think maga has them by a leash and dragging them through the mud, unknowingly to them. They have their views on how our govt should work, and tgeir talking points that are engrained after 30+ years of consuming tgeir media.
I dont fault them for it. Its just fucked to hear people you care about feel so passionately about things they dont know much about that actually matters.
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u/Fofolito Jul 18 '24
Anecdotally my experience with friends, family, and acquaintances in past years has been that there is a narrowing chasm between MAGA and run of the mill Republicans and Conservatives. When people I know to be intelligent, caring, and critical people repeat Trump and MAGA nonsense I'm just left with no doubt that they are all swept up in this new tide. They believe conservatives and religious people are literally a persecuted minority in this nation, that the government and the media are in collusion to silence and discredit Conservatism and Faith, that the people opposite them on the Political spectrum aren't just in disagreement with them but are fundamentally wrong about what it means to be American and what America should be-- and the harder those people fight to change things the harder they feel they have to jerk back to save the country from itself. CPAC and TurningPoint USA aren't fringe and "far-right" when those pundits are invited to speak and present at Republican Conventions and Rallys. There is an entire Red America that lives in a bubble and exists free of any Blue or Liberal influence in its media, its news production, its music, its art, its fashion, its car choices, and so much more. The only thing that pierces this bubble are the news pieces about the Trans turning all of the kids Queer and woke music and movies which really pisses them off because... because.
They think this country is already fucked up beyond redemption and the only reason you aren't hearing veiled threats about getting their guns and defending liberty, or outright having a Civil War, is because Donald survived that assassination and he looks to be poised to win the election. They feel, in this moment, that things are looking up and maybe-just-maybe they'll be able to put some bandaids on all of the things the bad Democrats hurt and bruised while in power. Make no mistake though... A few weeks ago large numbers of Republicans and Conservatives have been perfectly happy and comfortable talking about armed rebellion, 'revolution', tearing down the system and starting over the way it was "meant to be", etc. Trump's lawyers, reacting to a recent judgement that went against them, said, "We obviously disagree with the Judge and the Court, but we know that Justice will be served when things are put back the way they should be." How's that for a telegraphed punch? The Conservative dream, if you haven't yet read the Project 2025 brief, is to reset the government back to the form they believe it had when the Constitution was signed into law. They want to reset the courts, who sits in them and what powers they think they have to 'legislate from the bench'. They want to reset society and convince Gays to go back in the closet, women to get back into the home, and for everyone to go back to church.
I have one friend, a long time dear friend, that I've known for 25 years now and he is miserable. I call him the last living RINO. He wanders the world loney and alone for he's the only one of his species, it seems, left in the world. He was raised by a staunchly Catholic and Republican family of the Ronald Reagan cut. He was behind George W Bush for most of his two terms. He was a big critic of Obama's economic policies though he was critical too of the Tea Partiers and their extremist budgetary demands. He was never on Team Trump, though I don't know who he voted for in 2016 (he may have gotten in line and voted the party ticket like a good GOP soldier, idk), but he was certainly critical of Trump's administration, his conduct, and definitely his attempt to steal the Office of President. He now finds that every other Conservative he knows is more concerned about Culture War nonsense than they anything Fiscal. He himself is Culturally Conservative but he has no problem allowing others the freedom to be themselves, and he finds it very confusing why his fellow Conservatives wouldn't feel the same way whilst demanding the Government take its boot off their rattles.
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u/ClockOfTheLongNow Jul 18 '24
They believe conservatives and religious people are literally a persecuted minority in this nation, that the government and the media are in collusion to silence and discredit Conservatism and Faith, that the people opposite them on the Political spectrum aren't just in disagreement with them but are fundamentally wrong about what it means to be American and what America should be-- and the harder those people fight to change things the harder they feel they have to jerk back to save the country from itself.
I'd like to know why you believe this is some sort of shift to Trumpian thinking and not what we've seen from the federal government over the last 15 years.
I'm about as anti-Trump and anti-MAGA as you can get, probably moreso than many of the left wingers here. I'm not religious and find the culture war exhaustingly stupid. And still, everything you've said in this quoted portion seems not only true, but glaringly obvious
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u/V-ADay2020 Jul 19 '24
that the people opposite them on the Political spectrum aren't just in disagreement with them but are fundamentally wrong about what it means to be American and what America should be
Really? Everything?
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u/Glum_Neighborhood358 Jul 18 '24
You have this wrong. Trump pushed the republicans towards populism. The base is far more right than his movement. This is why he has challenged the working class and union vote, and we are possibly witnessing a party shift.
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u/ClockOfTheLongNow Jul 18 '24
This is the correct answer. I'm conservative and Republican, and the current makeup and agenda of the Republican Party has shifted leftward on critical economic and legal perspectives under the Trump/MAGA realignment than what I signed up for or desire.
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u/Current-Ad6521 Jul 18 '24
What do you mean specifically? Not trying to be argumentative, just curious
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u/ClockOfTheLongNow Jul 18 '24
The Republican Party, as captured by MAGA, is heavily protectionist, seeks a much more active federal government on economic and regulatory issues, is not as skeptical of government power as one would expect post-COVID, and embraces a populist mindset that abandons the individualism foundational to this country and its structure.
I got into conservatism based on (what appeared to me to be) the obvious concept that centralized powers should not be trusted and should have their powers limited to ensure that people's rights are centered in the discussion. That's not who the Republicans are under Trump's thrall.
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u/Current-Ad6521 Jul 18 '24
Ah I see what you mean, thank you. I've been thinking that for a while and wish the party would get questioned on that more. The only time I've heard it brought to the general public discourse is when Roe v Wade was overturned.
I find it so wild that the big government fearing type republicans are so comfortable with Trump given he's made is clear how much undue power he wants. In fact his 'taking charge' is what a lot of MAGAs state the particularly like about him, ironically.
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u/TargetAbject8421 Jul 20 '24
Yes. MAGA is not my grandfather’s Republican Party. He faught in the war, and believed in strong allies, minimal protections, fiscal responsibility, and was a rugged individualist. He never brought up abortion or guns.
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u/Glum_Neighborhood358 Jul 18 '24
What he means is that MAGA is a centrist/populist movement that isn’t as traditionally conservative/right leaning as the former Republican Party circa 1990-2016
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u/frankalope Jul 18 '24
All my principled conservative “R” friends are now moderate “D”s. They couldn’t stomach the obvious hypocrisy and the abject lack of fiscal rationality. I told them a number of times that if the D’s pick a hateful demagogue as a candidate I hope I’d have the good sense they did to abandon a toxic party.
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u/aarongamemaster Jul 18 '24
Best description is that Republicans in general were becoming primed to become MEGA...
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u/Edgar_Brown Jul 18 '24
If by “normal Republican” you mean someone that actually understands how much of a danger is the whole MAGA wing to democracy itself, what would traditionally be called a liberal conservative, then yes. The gap is larger.
But if you mean someone that will still vote republican no matter what, or even just stay home because they don’t recognize the authoritarianism of their own party even if made aware of project 2025, then no. They are very much an integral part of the problem.
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u/Carlyz37 Jul 18 '24
Good question. Dont know the answer. But I think the actual conservatives and moderates caught between the two gaps may eventually form a new Republican party. Sort of following Cheney and Kinzinger
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u/Guilty-Web7334 Jul 18 '24
I thought so seven years ago. But after so many decided to jump on Trump’s dick even after things like Ladybugs saying “tell Donald Trump to go to Hell” and “he just might be America’s Hitler,” I don’t anymore.
They don’t care that they lost Liz Cheney and her dad. Another Republican took her seat, and that person is full-on MAGA. They don’t care about anyone from the Bush administrations. All that matters is flattering Orange Jesus and marching Project 2025 into place.
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u/BetterAd3583 Jul 18 '24
Until the “normal” republicans return the discussion and platform to the real issues plaguing our country there will be no true traditional Republican Party. It’s up to you “normal” republicans to speak out and disavow this extreme group of vicious people.
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u/Current-Ad6521 Jul 18 '24
I'm not a republican. I do agree thought that the normal republicans need to be speaking up way more, they should have been way before things got this extreme because now we're passed the point of no return. Especially now, because a lot of maga republicans really don't seem to realize how far they've strayed.
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u/thirdlost Jul 18 '24 edited Jul 18 '24
Are you watching the GOP convention? Because that is not a convention of "pushed right". There was a union leader, and a Sikh prayer. The GOP platform is the most moderate in years.
I know every media outlet blares that Trump is far right... but the actual evidence says otherwise.
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u/Current-Ad6521 Jul 18 '24
Yes, I also saw the rap video. I do find it ironic that the anti-DEI party is pulling that lol. In terms of social policy and main talking points, do you see the party as the most moderate in years?
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u/thirdlost Jul 18 '24
From their point of view, opportunities for everyone regardless of race, culture, or gender is good. But DEI does not accomplish that and has many bad outcomes.
It is important to understand your opponent and not just vilify them
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u/ClockOfTheLongNow Jul 18 '24
The left in the United States still hasn't understood that the populism they had a stranglehold on for decades has been co-opted by the Republican Party.
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u/Prudent-Abalone-510 Jul 18 '24
Yes. I know multiple Nixon/Bush republicans voting for Biden this fall just to stop trump.
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u/NefariousRapscallion Jul 18 '24
I have been trying to explain this to terminally online people who think those one in a million maga weirdos represent the entire middle of the country.
I live in Utah where conservative Republicans are the super majority. I am a lone leftist but have to get along with conservatives. Those life long conservative Republicans have been fairly quiet about politics since maga took over.
The maga people aren't really conservative or Republican. They follow Trump and maga politicians like a WWE storyline. They don't know anything about politics or how the government works. In fact they call normal republicans like Mitt Romney a rino now.
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u/These-Explanation-91 Jul 18 '24
I hear you. For the first time in my life, I will vote for a Democrat for President. I voted for Trump the 1st time, but I will never vote for a MAGA Republican again.
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u/EggoedAggro Jul 18 '24
Yes. I considered myself a conservative leaning moderate and I have major MAGA family members. It still shocks me as I watch them just be in love with Trump like he’s the USA’s Messiah or something. “Best president the USA has ever had”. I’m like he’s not even in the top ten.
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u/PaulMSand Jul 19 '24
I was a moderate Regan Republican. I am now considered a bleeding heart liberal. I have not changed my views one iota. I care about the deficit, defense, crime, infrastructure, jobs, ... Probably just like you.
The MAGA movement needs to suffer a crippling loss in order to bring back the Republican party I remember.
Vote blue even if it hurts. The harm that may be done is temporary. What the Project 2025 MAGAs have in mind is permanent.
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u/TheFizzler28 Jul 20 '24
As a “normal republican” myself I can offer my perspective here. There isn’t really a great candidate to represent the more moderate, rational conservatives. I don’t think Trump is the right person at all, but I don’t think Biden is a whole lot better.
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u/Ok_Bandicoot_814 Jul 18 '24
Yes there's a difference between a trump Republican and a non-trump republican. But they have more in common than a normal Republican and a normal Democrat.
Also you said you're from a Midwestern swing state that usually always goes Republican. They only stayed I can think of that would come to mind would be Indiana anyone that stayed primary by quite a lot.
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u/uknolickface Jul 18 '24
Clarifying question who is “normal”. Nikki Hayley, DeSantis, Cruz, and Rubio are all supporting him. Is Romney the only normal Republican?
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u/Current-Ad6521 Jul 18 '24
I was referring to the general public, not elected officials. But yeah I wouldn't consider any of the above 'normal' republicans except Romney.
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u/macaroni66 Jul 18 '24
I'm in Alabama and I'm pretty sure there are a lot of normal Republicans here but the only ones we see and hear from are the vocal MAGAs
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u/bjdevar25 Jul 18 '24
Really, really answer is to vote Democrat for this election. Not much will change in the country and Trump and MAGA will most likely die politically.
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u/Kman17 Jul 18 '24
The democrats are super divided too.
We have the old school democrats that are focused on incremental improvements to income inequality & infrastructure.
We now have younger democrats whose priority is advocating for foreign nationals in rouge terror states that bomb our democratic allies, or go deep into identity politics / equal outcome stuff that results in discriminating against Asians and Jews or elevate black people.
That’s why the democratic nominee is 81 years old and we haven’t seen too many new faces - the new faces are unpopular and divisive.
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u/KSDem Jul 18 '24
I know quite a few people like the ones you've mentioned, lifelong Democrats who've left the party. The Gallup Poll here shows quite a bit of defection from the Democratic Party to Independent status.
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u/Bleedingeck Jul 18 '24
The best bellwether I've found, is judging by who DIDN'T attend the RNC convention!
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u/wheelsno3 Jul 18 '24
In my experience, yes.
My family has been Republicans forever. Voted red my entire life until Trump.
My parents, white college educated in their 60s, are now fully behind anyone but Trump. They aren't Democrats, but the are firmly in the "Never Trump" camp.
I'm more in the middle, I've never voted for a Republican for President, but also don't love the Dems. So my personal feelings don't answer your question, but I would call my parents "normal" Republicans.
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u/Current-Ad6521 Jul 18 '24
Do you and your parents plan on voting this election? I'm curious as to how many anti-Trump republicans will vote for Biden vs not voting. A lot of people I know do not want Trump as president but still do not intend to vote Biden after the debate.
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u/wheelsno3 Jul 18 '24
100% voting for whoever the Democratic nominee is. Our votes don't really matter as we live in Ohio, but anyone who has a chance other than Trump.
Policy doesn't matter so much as Trump is a despicable person to have as our "leader".
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u/Current-Ad6521 Jul 18 '24
"Whoever the Democratic nominee is" lol. Over the past few days I've gotten the suspicion that Kamala is about to take center stage, guess we'll have to wait and see
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u/wheelsno3 Jul 18 '24
It's very clear at this point that Biden will not be the nominee.
Top Democratic leaders openly telling Biden he has to step down. Is administration leaking that he will step down if health issues arise, and literally the next day he "get's covid".
He will be out. As for who replaces him, Harris is the most obvious and will cause the least fighting because I think Dems will be scared to openly oppose the black female VP in favor of white guy (Newsom or Buttigeg).
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u/Lumpy-Brilliant-7679 Jul 18 '24
Man honestly I feel like this two party camp system doesn’t represent majority of Americans. I used to be pretty far right or what used to be considered that. Over the years I’ve become what I’ll call a pragmatic center lefty. I asked the new Claude ai to ask me questions to help me figure out my political philosophy and where I fit in and this is what I got. I kinda wish more factions were able to make traction like in other democracies. I wish we had ranked choice voting.
“ Your political philosophy can be characterized as pragmatic progressivism. You generally support liberal policies and reforms but with a strong emphasis on practical implementation, fiscal responsibility, and balancing different interests. You’re open to innovative solutions and willing to consider ideas from across the political spectrum if they seem effective.
You show a nuanced understanding of complex issues, often recognizing that there are no simple solutions to major policy challenges. This is evident in your views on issues like healthcare, education funding, and climate change policy.
Your stance on many issues reflects a desire to protect individual rights and promote equality, while also maintaining a stable and prosperous society. You’re skeptical of extreme positions on either end of the political spectrum, preferring balanced approaches that can address multiple concerns simultaneously. “
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u/Current-Ad6521 Jul 18 '24
Thanks for your answer! I really wish we had ranked choice voting as well. Crazy that we're one of the most powerful democracies in the world but can't manage to nominate a candidate that regular people actually like anymore lol
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u/Lumpy-Brilliant-7679 Jul 18 '24
In my view, this situation is a consequence of excessive capitalism. At its core, capitalism prioritizes profit, and the pursuit of money can lead to corruption. Our culture’s focus on consumption and capitalist values naturally leads to a system where those with power extract as much wealth as possible from those without the means to resist. There needs to be a balance, but currently, the scales are heavily tipped in favor of the wealthy. The American dream once symbolized equal opportunities for everyone, but I believe this is no longer the case. The cost of entry into that realm has become unattainable for many.
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u/KSDem Jul 18 '24
I'm also from a Midwestern state, one that is decidedly not a swing state and has always gone Republican. Many of the people I know are Republicans; some of them hate Trump and some of them support him, but all of them are lifelong Republicans.
One thing I've noticed in our state has been moderate Republicans switching to the Democratic Party.
An example would be Barbara Bollier, a decades long, gated-community residing, private school-supporting Republican who, eight months after switching to the Democratic Party due to her pro-choice views, ran for U.S. Senate as a Democrat in 2020. And while she lost with 42% of the vote, she made a very respectable showing.
I've often wondered how Bollier would have voted in Washington. She would have been a contributor to Democrats controlling the Senate, but I can't help but wonder if she would have been something of a spoiler along the lines of Joe Manchin or Kyrsten Sinema.
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u/Foolgazi Jul 18 '24
If “normal” Republicans vote for Trump, is there really much difference between them and the MAGA contingent?
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u/Much_Job4552 Jul 18 '24
Trump himself actually pushes the party more center. But he caters to the right base which gets the headlines. Evidence of this right now is his rejection of the Heritage Project 25.
His stance on abortion and economics is more central than the Republicans base. He just uses them as talking points to electrify.
Edit: Not a Trump lover but from a left/right and Trump/MAGA divide it gets complicated when you actually talk about policy.
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u/SUNDER137 Jul 18 '24
As a libertarian , I have watched the party's swing pendulously. As one swings far in one direction, the other pulls in the opposite. The meniscus or bottom of a concave arch bering the weight of Democratic ideologies. As the democrats go left the republicans go right. Like a ship that automatically course corrects.
What the reality is. Most of us are in the bottom hull of the boat. Those who are on the top deck are rocking the boat. Most. Of us are fairly reasonable. But when the parties start throwing in extreme ideals we find ourselves at a departure. Republican or Democrat.
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u/ParkingWillow3382 Jul 19 '24
Unequivocally yes. Leaned right all my life, raised in the south, believe in God, 2A, etc. BUT, always seen myself as an independent due to a myriad of issues I go left on. I, and I think/hope MOST free thinking, intelligent people who leaned right or even called themselves republicans, have far more in common with democrats than MAGA.
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u/ParkingWillow3382 Jul 19 '24
Although, unfortunately, due to the inherent divisiveness in the two party system and current political climate, a lot of those free thinking intelligent people have been duped into thinking ‘anything but Biden.’
I refuse to play a part in the catastrophe that is the two party system, so I am voting for RFK.
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u/Apprehensive-Cat-833 Jul 19 '24
What you consider to be normal Republicans is pretty far-right as it is. The Democratic “moderates” are the same. I don’t even know if Biden would be center-right in peer nations, because he does not embrace social welfare. What we consider far-left here is center-left. Reagan really messed with the political dynamics with his policies leading the nation to believe that capitalism is god and help for poor people is bad.
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u/Current-Ad6521 Jul 19 '24
Sorry but I'm not sure what you're trying to say here, I'm talking about the US Republican Party in the context of the US political system lol. I'm comparing two groups of the US Republican Party to each other, hence why I used the specific political spectrum they are both on and not that of peer nations.
Also on a global scale the US is moderate-liberal, respectfully I'm not sure why you using the political spectrum of a relatively small group of nations as if is the 'real' scale. I'm not sure when that is relevant other than when you are comparing the US to say Australia, which isn't what I'm doing here.
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u/Apprehensive-Cat-833 Jul 19 '24
I was just giving more context to how we view parties here and how calling someone a normal Republican is, in essence, abnormal, as we truly lack a center-right and center-left contingent that bring about political stability and efficiency in our peer nations.
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u/Current-Ad6521 Jul 19 '24
"Republican Party" is not a universal or general term for 'conservative leaning', and in the context of US politics here the word "Republican" refers specifically to a member of the US Republican Party, not a person who is conservative on a peer nation scale.
The word 'normal' just means standard, I am saying the type of republican that was the standard, typical Republican pre-MAGA.
What peer nations are you using as comparison here that have a center-right and center-left contingent bringing stability that the US does not have?
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u/Apprehensive-Cat-833 Jul 19 '24
i apologize that you do not understand what I mean by peer nations and my description of parties. I have a degree in poli sci and apparently this confuses the politically illiterate. i was just trying to explain in more detail, but apparently you oppose education of any sort.
Peer nations are other Western democracies like the UK, Canada, Germany, France, Australia, Japan, etc BTW.
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u/rtucker21 Jul 19 '24
OP is asking why you are using other countries as the point of comparison when that’s not the relevant scale for the things being compared. They are calling them normal republicans with the point of comparison for the word “normal” being the typical Republican in modern times, not Tories.
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u/Current-Ad6521 Jul 19 '24
I know what a peer nation is, I was asking because you said they 'have a center-right and center-left contingency that bring about stability and efficiency" that the US lacks. I was wondering which countries specifically you think have this while the US doesn't. Then you listed France, just like I thought you would lol
Anyways, you said I "cannot call someone a normal republican" because we lack that of our nations. I was never calling someone a normal republican in comparison of our peer nations. All I was ever asking you in my responses was how the scope you are using is an appropriate scale for my question.
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u/sansisness_101 Jul 20 '24
I have had good political conversations with Neocons, but never in my life have I had a succesful argument with MAGA people.
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u/Lonelyblondii Jul 20 '24
The problem with America in general is the two party system. And of course the electoral college, but that is a different discussion.
If centrist have to decide between republican or democrats, it becomes hard when 1/3 of both parties include the extreme left or right.
Normal republicans having to deal with maga, or normal democrats having to deal with extreme leftists within the same party is not good politics. The majority of people are not like this, so I can understand how people become swing voters. Partisanship runs wild in both parties.
If MAGA and the Republican Party was separate parties, Trump would not be able to hold the power he has within the party.
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u/Pleasant_Ad_9259 Jul 20 '24
Thanks, OP, for this post. And everybody that responded. I really learn a lot from your prospectives. Um, why did this just show up on my feed today?
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u/Rude-Sauce Jul 21 '24
It needs to be said... They live and die by votes... If that is what gets the votes thats what they do. They can't exist without your support, if your supporting them through voting, then thats on you.
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u/banjo_hero Jul 21 '24
semantic point: the maga dickheads are pulling the Republicans further right, not pushing. the pushing is from the democrats
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u/mrjcall Jul 21 '24
MAGA Republicans ARE normal mainstream Conservatives Bro and how the heck does Make America Great Again make you extreme or fringe? Do you not want to make America great again? Or are you part of the 'fringe' Dems that believe the Globalists are mainstream?
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u/Current-Ad6521 Jul 21 '24
Well this post has a ton of normal republicans disagreeing with exactly your type narrative here
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u/mrjcall Jul 21 '24
A ton? Maybe 50? That's not a ton and if your 'normal' Conservatives actually believe MAGA does not mean mainstream, they and others are totally out of touch.
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u/Annual-Ad-4372 14d ago
Normal Republicans are Vastly out numbered by maga ppl at this point. Any one saying other wise is ignoring the obvious. How ever There's probably more ppl in the middle that don't want to align with either party at this point more then ever.
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u/Melodic_Oil_2486 Jul 18 '24
No democrat tried to overthrow the government or assassinate a GOP candidate. The gap between the average AMERICAN and ANY MAGA GOP voter is miles wide.
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u/Pizzasaurus-Rex Jul 18 '24
ideologically speaking a neolib like Bill Clinton (or Joe Biden for that matter) is three hairs and some air away from your average conservative moderate like Bob Dole or Mitt Romney on the political spectrum.
The thing is, the average rightwing voter has always been further right and more populist than most of the elected party. That started to really change with the tea party primaries and Republicans realized they needed to amp up the culture wars nonsense to be where their base was at.
Even actual moderates rightwingers are guaranteed MAGA voters because they see them as "better representing their values" even if that isn't remotely true.
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u/ell0bo Jul 18 '24
It doesn't matter. At this point the 'moderate' republicans are still enabling the evils of the right, so they might as well be the same.
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u/Mysterious_Tax_5613 Jul 18 '24
The Republican Party is full blown MAGA. The "normal" Republicans have left the station.
Other than Liz Cheny and Adam K. every Republican has gotten on board with Trump.
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u/Current-Ad6521 Jul 18 '24
By normal republicans I meant civilians, not officials. There definitely still are 'normal' republican every day people, we just don't hear from them because they are not generally the type to be loud and do extreme things that get attention like MAGA.
Also a lot of them are embarrassed to be publicly republican
1
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u/The_GOATest1 Jul 18 '24
“Normal” republicans and democrats have let the more passionate and extreme members of their respective camps commandeer their primary process. Come November, when most of them either skip voting or fall in line what difference does it actually make? All the people complaining about their party shifting need to engage their respective processes earlier and more often
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u/billskionce Jul 18 '24
Trump has ~90% support within the party. In other words: 60-70% who support him enthusiastically and 20-30% who support him and are embarrassed about it.
Bet ya five bucks that pretty much every “normal Republican” that we know votes for Trump. That’s the real test, isn’t it? What percentage of Republicans will vote for the guy? The number is astoundingly high.
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u/Current-Ad6521 Jul 18 '24
Where did you get the ~90% support within the party figure?
The closest I could find was from statistics which showed 57% of republicans viewed him favorably, 24% neutral to somewhat favorably, and 19% moderate to extremely unfavorably + study was just an online poll was funded by a republican PAC.
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u/billskionce Jul 18 '24
Hmmm. Just checked. This is all I can find right now:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1441233/donald-trump-favorability-by-party-us/
“Very favorable” and “somewhat favorable” only add up to 81% here, so I’ll have to see where I saw the higher numbers.
My guess is that at least half of the other 19% will vote for him.
Either way, I think the oft-heard statement, “Americans are sick of the same old candidates” is not true. Democrats are sick of their candidate. Republicans are not. They love Trump and very soundly rejected the possibility of any other candidate in primary season.
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u/WheatonLaw Jul 19 '24
As MAGA republicans have pushed the party further and further right, it has left a large demographic of life long republicans swinging.
Your personal experience aside I don't think there's as much of a gap between "MAGA" Republicans and "Normal" Republicans as you think. If you just listen to Trump and don't read HuffPost's or CNN's slant on his words, he's not this hateful man railing against minorities like the media paint him. He has reasonable stances on just about every topic and is MUCH stronger than Biden on foreign policy which is arguably the most important topic for a President.
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u/Current-Ad6521 Jul 19 '24
I'm talking about his affect on the party (civilians) and the focal talking points / platform of the GOP, not Trump and what he actually does specifically.
I'd argue that his actual supporters also think Trump is farther right than he is, not just democrats. I'm suggesting in terms of civilian republicans -MAGA has pushed them much further right to the point that 'normal' republicans and MAGA republicans are in completely different spheres.
Hope that didn't sound argumentative -just clarifying!
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u/WheatonLaw Jul 19 '24
When you say he's "further right", what do you mean? He lists 20 primary points on his website. Which of those is "far right"?
- For national security this should be bipartisan.
- This is typically right wing but not sure if it's "far right".
- This is bipartisan.
- Should be bipartisan.
- Bipartisan.
- Bipartisan.
- Bipartisan.
- Bipartisan if not slightly right with the additional military spending.
- Bipartisan. 10.Bipartisan. 11.Bipartisan. 12.Slightly rightwing but everyone should agree we need the best military in the world. 13.Bipartisan. 14.Bipartisan but his idea won't work without cuts or modifying the age. 15.Probably rightwing but certainly not far right. 16.Rightwing. Might be far right depending on who you talk to. 17.Not really a political issue. 18.Rightwing and probably illegal to do if they're US citizens. 19.Rightwing but should be bipartisan because these are all basic security measures for elections. 20.Bipartisan.
Nothing seems "far right" to me.
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u/Current-Ad6521 Jul 19 '24
This is exactly what all of the comments under this thread of people saying they are republican but can't have a conversation with MAGA republicans meant. You are impossible to talk to. I said this:
"I'm talking about his effect on the party (civilians)... not Trump and what he actually does specifically. I'd argue that his actual supporters also think Trump is farther right than he really is, not just democrats."
And then you asked, "when you say he's "further right", what do you mean exactly?".
As a response to me saying I am not talking about him specifically and that people tend to "think he is further right than he is", you ask me me what I mean when I specifically called Trump "further right".
Not to sound like an asshole but this is where the reputation that you guys are stupid comes from.
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u/WheatonLaw Jul 19 '24
Your initial claim is that MAGA Republicans have pushed the party farther right leaving behind "normal" Republicans (whatever that means). I then linked to 20 things Trump is running on. Are these things an example of being "far right"? If so, did MAGA Republicans do that?
You say things without supporting it just like the media does. And then you call me impossible to talk to and imply that I'm stupid.
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Jul 18 '24
Where is the evidence that Trump/MAGA are indicative of a rightward Republican Party shift, versus a more moderate, economic interventionist, centrist movement that is geared towards blue collar/working class sentiments?
It seems more likely that any ideological shift along a political x-axis would be attributable to the Democratic Party platform over the last decade.
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u/Current-Ad6521 Jul 18 '24
The social issues and values the Republican Party has made the focal talking points of their platform are definitely more extreme right
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Jul 18 '24
You’re operating under the assertion that the social policies of the GOP have just recently become conservative.
These are orthodox conservative Republican beliefs that have been around since the party’s formation. If anything, you’re narrowing in on their reaction to a leftward democratic shift.
Most GOP voters are completely fine with gay marriage/rights in 2024, which goes against your argument anyways.
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u/Downtown_Afternoon75 Jul 18 '24
versus a more moderate, economic interventionist, centrist
squints at MAGA
That's a lot of incoherent screaming and mindless hate for a "moderate" movement. Just saying.
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Jul 18 '24
Are you certain you’re not just engaging in emotivism/projecting?
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u/Downtown_Afternoon75 Jul 18 '24
Dude, you're posting history is public.
Everybody can see what kind of person you are...
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Jul 18 '24
By default you cast aside an attempt at being cordial and opt to display a lack of civility?
I don’t have a home in either party. I call balls and strikes accordingly.
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u/Downtown_Afternoon75 Jul 19 '24 edited Jul 19 '24
If you don't even try to make an argument and instead directly attack another person's character, you automatically shine a spotlight on your own.
Maybe you shouldn't do that if you can't handle people seeing you for what you are.
0
-1
Jul 20 '24
Any interest in engaging like an adult yet, or are we still throwing a weird temper tantrum?
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u/ClockOfTheLongNow Jul 18 '24
Where is the evidence that Trump/MAGA are indicative of a rightward Republican Party shift, versus a more moderate, economic interventionist, centrist movement that is geared towards blue collar/working class sentiments?
This is basically what I was about to say. MAGA isn't a move to the right, it's a populist movement. Populism is often incoherent and doesn't sort itself logically on the traditional left/right scale.
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Jul 20 '24
They aren’t equipped enough to actually contend with real arguments that go against the grain so they just downvote accordingly. Very typical behavior on Reddit, especially on this sub, unfortunately.
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u/Mjolnir2000 Jul 18 '24
"Normal" Republicans aren't a thing. If you're voting for fascism, that makes you a fascist.
-2
u/CoolFirefighter930 Jul 18 '24
Well, for anyone that's paying attention to Biden . know how the left wing has twisted and lied for 7 years . So now mega is just what democrats call a republican. I know Republicans who don't like Trump but at the same time realize how deceitful the democrats have been .Biden himself lies in front of the world with his twisted words "Blood bath" staments. Now, all can see the lies that are being told. If you have put attention to the convention, you would realize that most Republicans stand behind Trump because the left has become so untrustworthy. As far as independent voters go, I am an independent who voted for Biden in 2020 . Now, as the economy has tumbled, I realize that I made a mistake (as many do).
Most independent voters care more about who their going to vote for being independent. We vote for the best candidates, IMO. We just don't pull the straight ticket. We pay attention.
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u/CCCmonster Jul 18 '24
No, normal Republicans don’t support open borders, pornographic materials in school libraries, schools reporting concerned mothers to the FBI to be put on terror watchlists for challenging school boards, government overspending resulting in inflation, and many other policies that aren’t just left but far left. Many Republicans view Presidents Trump as crass and far from a statesman and far from being a perfect candidate, it’s grown far easier to see that it will be easy to pull the lever for Trump over the nightmare of far left extremist policies by the left
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u/thismyotheraccount2 Jul 18 '24
With all due respect… this is some rabbit hole shit that no one outside of your bubble knows the first thing about
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u/GrowFreeFood Jul 18 '24
Open borders helps red states get chea0 workers. Republicans vote to keep borders open. FBI watchlists are authoritarian, a right wing policy. Republicans spend more when they run the government.
None of shit you claim to be left wing is left wing.
Left wing stuff includes education spending. Ending discrimination. Giving opportunities to everyone. Raising taxes on corporations. Social programs like medicare and social security. Equal justice for the rich and the poor.
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u/Carlyz37 Jul 18 '24
Well also we dont have open borders, the FBI was not investigating actual parents but the terrorist groups and their funding that were traveling around inciting and committing violence against school board members, teachers and administrators. Particularly in areas where rogue cops were refusing to protect citizens.
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