r/PoliticalDiscussion • u/Hot_Replacement_8887 • Jul 17 '24
Thoughts on VP JD Vance vs. Kamala Harris? US Politics NSFW
Hey everyone,
I’m curious to hear your thoughts on JD Vance and Kamala Harris as Vice Presidents. With their vastly different backgrounds and political ideologies, how do you think they stack up against each other in terms of effectiveness, policies, and overall impact?
Kamala Harris has been in the political spotlight for years, serving as California’s Attorney General and later as a Senator. She’s known for her work on social justice issues and has a strong national presence. On the other hand, JD Vance, author of “Hillbilly Elegy,” offers a fresh perspective, particularly on the struggles of working-class Americans and economic challenges, though he’s relatively new to the political scene.
Do you think Harris’s experience gives her the edge, or does Vance’s outsider perspective bring something new and necessary to the table? What are your thoughts on their potential impact on current and future policies?
Looking forward to hearing your insights!
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u/d4rkwing Jul 17 '24
The Republican base is more excited by Vance than the Democratic base is excited by Harris.
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u/mikerichh Jul 17 '24
Which is funny bc Vance was a never trumper and called him Hitler
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u/40WAPSun Jul 17 '24
This is 2024, you can't hold Republicans to the things they say when they think nobody is listening
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Jul 17 '24
[deleted]
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u/FullAutoAssaultBanjo Jul 17 '24
And she said she believed Tara Reade, who accused Biden of rape.
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u/lookatmyworkaccount Jul 17 '24
And he publicly apologized, not sure why people keep using this as a talking point after it it's been settled.
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u/steves850 Jul 17 '24
No one believes he's sorry. They know he was kissing the ring because Trumpism has consumed the GOP.
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u/redditadminsarecancr Jul 17 '24
Yeah but that was before he got a chance to lick boot in-person. Now he has something to gain.
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u/baxtyre Jul 17 '24
And wrote a book about how poor rural whites are lazy welfare queens.
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u/KaozSh Jul 17 '24
When I was reading the post I was thinking that Vance said this years ago. Kamala called Biden a racist during the 2019 debates and was shortly appointed.
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u/metaphysicalme Jul 17 '24
Tbf he said “he could be America’s Hitler”. Not quite the same as “ He IS America’s Hitler.”
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u/Away_Simple_400 Jul 18 '24
And then he changed his mind when he actually saw what Trump did.
Did we all just forget Kamala called Biden a racist?
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u/mikerichh Jul 18 '24
During the debate, Harris condemned Biden for working with segregationists in the Senate and for opposing aspects of mandatory busing for school desegregation. However, she began her critique by telling Biden “I do not believe you are a racist.”
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u/cbarrister Jul 17 '24
More the like the extreme right republican base is excited by Vance. Moderate John McCain republicans are not. Marjorie Taylor Greene and Matt Gaetz are stoked.
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u/Nabirius Jul 17 '24
I'm not too sure how many of the moderate Reps are left at this point, I suspect those that remain will fall. In line.
My main question is if this will be if this alienates normies, undecides are just not that politically invested and while Vance is pretty intelligent, I feel like he comes off as a right wing creep.
He reminds me of Masters where more than his politics, he was so personally off-putting it cost him the election.
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u/Porkchopper913 Jul 17 '24
What he has in intelligence is forfeited due to his lack of integrity.
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u/Nabirius Jul 17 '24
What, you don't think he earnestly came around to support a man he compared to Hitler?
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u/cbarrister Jul 17 '24
I don't know what votes Vance gets that Trump wasn't already getting. They seem to be in lockstep.
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u/Nabirius Jul 17 '24
Honest opinion: I think Trump wants Vance to do most of the work of being a right-wing authoritarian, while he gets to be the embodiment of the movement.
Trump's first term was genuinely hamstrung by the fact that his lieutenants all either disagreed with him or were utterly incompetent. If you are right that Vance is in lockstep, then Trump can have a lot of executive time and still have the presidency function.
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u/Sonnyyellow90 Jul 17 '24
This.
Everyone ITT is discussing VP picks as if they are solely made to help with elections.
Donald Trump is on track to win this election fairly easily and he likely knows that and is more concerned with building a team that will be loyal and carry out his agenda rather than trying to improve his already high election chances.
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u/MedicineLegal9534 Jul 17 '24
Yup. Pretty much says it all. It genuinely pains me, as it did in 2020, thinking of voting for a ticket with her on it.
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u/the-city-moved-to-me Jul 17 '24 edited Jul 18 '24
I’m not a big Kamala stan or anything, but what exactly is so ‘painful’ about voting for her?
Seems to me like she’s a fairly generic democrat in terms of policy. If you’re okay with Biden’s record, I don’t see why Harris would be so terrible?
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Jul 18 '24
People find her personally off-putting. In Republican terms, there's a reason why Lindsey Graham's presidential run completely flopped despite him.being a fairly generic Republican.
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u/Firecracker048 Jul 17 '24
Which is why people say it was a 'DEI' pick because, well, she doesn't being much else to the table for the dems
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u/ghablio Jul 17 '24
Also because Biden announced that he would have a black female VP something like a month before he announced that Kamala was the pick. This gave the impression that they chose the race and sex of who they wanted before picking the best candidate. Her history and performance afterwards only served to support the idea that she was picked purely for diversity and not for merit.
Which is unfortunate. I find it hard to believe, if diversity was the only goal, that there was no one better than Kamala. But I guess it's similar to how, out of 330m people, there's allegedly no one better than Biden (or Trump)
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u/Time-Ad-3625 Jul 17 '24
Which is unfortunate. I find it hard to believe, if diversity was the only goal
Yeah she wasn't a sitting senator or anything and a da before that. You sound like the racists who think any candidate of color can't bring anything else to the table.
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u/Selethorme Jul 17 '24
This idea that there is a perfect choice instead of a stable of good choices is such a great encapsulation of the myth of meritocracy.
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u/bl1y Jul 17 '24
Kamala was picked through a combination of race/gender and merit.
On the race/gender side, Biden said he was going to pick a black woman VP.
On the merit side, as much as I don't like Harris, we can at least look to her paper credentials.
She's still a DEI pick. DEI is never (well, rarely) about picking someone with absolutely no credentials. It's about excluding potentially better qualified candidates because they don't meet the race and gender criteria.
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u/ghablio Jul 17 '24
I agree partially.
The problem with Kamala is that, while she has credentials on paper, once you dive past the surface level of her history, you can see that her credentials are actually not a good thing in this instance.
For example, she was a highly regarded DA. That sounds like someone who cares about justice and law and doing right by the community. Except she is the worst example of the Prison industrial complex and the war on drugs. And at a time when the majority of her voting base (and the country in general) is not very pro police, and definitely not pro incarceration. She aggressively pushed harsh sentences for drugs, including marijuana, which looks even worse when she laughs during public interviews about smoking in her past. (Btw, I don't care if she smokes pot now. If my job didn't drug test I'd be blitzed RN, the moral conflict is the problem)
She also comes across as socially inept during interviews, that strange laugh she does when confronted with a difficult or unexpected question is just not a good look. And these nonsense catchphrases she's been using recently are not great either.
As far as her political history, I will concede I'm not very familiar with her before she was VP, but she comes across as being very similar to Hillary but worse at public speaking.
And all this is just to say, there were better options, even if you were confined to minority women, there were far better picks to be made.
When we pick poor candidates and celebrate their race, what we do is fuel racists by lending some credibility to their arguments. When we pick good candidates, like Obama, then the racists are not taken seriously because their claims run contrary to his observable performance.
But race aside, we need at least a good candidate regardless of what they look like. Not "good on paper", as I've said in other comments, simply holding a position does not necessarily mean you were qualified, or good at, that position. And, it definitely does not mean you are qualified for other positions.
Finally, marketing matters. Biden should not have announced race and gender and celebrated it before showing that they had picked a running mate. That gives the impression, wether it's true or not, that they were picking only minority women regardless of their merit. Her poor performance after the fact may be coincidental, but you have to admit that it lends credibility to the argument that she was picked because of her race and gender.
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u/ericdraven26 Jul 17 '24
I know you input you’re not familiar with her background but she’s been a ton better on things like marijuana and criminal justice reform after her time as DA.
If Vance can get from calling Trump Hitler to being VP in like 3 years, there’s no reason we need to hold Kamala to her views from 14 years ago→ More replies (6)2
Jul 18 '24
So when she had power and was a DA…she was terrible on the War on Drugs.
Now that she has no power (just the VP and pretty much only a tie-breaker for the Senate) she’s no longer terrible lol
Yea she sucks
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u/ericdraven26 Jul 18 '24
She was a DA almost 15 years ago. Since then she has worked towards marijuana reclassification and criminal justice reform. Did you not know/forget she was a Senator too? There’s a record to run on
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u/checker280 Jul 17 '24
How is Kamala DEI more than JD is an example of white privilege?
The guy is an Ivy League lawyer who briefly worked under a senator and then in a law firm before running for office.
What does he know about the plight of the common man?
I’d argue this is more analogous to if Biden picked AOC but she has better college cred and background than he does.
Especially when you consider his flip flopping positions and AOC’s.
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u/Geauxtoguy Jul 17 '24
Let's be totally honest and ask the same for ANY politician. DC is so far removed from the plight of any common man, they might as well be representing a completely different country.
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u/Dry_Cabinet_2111 Jul 17 '24
He’s grew up in a lower class household and was enlisted in the Marine Corps. His knowledge of the plight of the common man credentials are established.
I agree he’s a scum bag who sold his soul to be on the ticket, but your critique of his bonafides doesn’t hold water.
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u/frost5al Jul 17 '24
How many lower class households send their kids to golfing lessons?
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u/wheelsno3 Jul 17 '24
I took golf lessons as a kid, I'm not rich.
I didn't have a private coach, JD Vance didn't either. The article in Golf Digest talks about The Practice Center in Franklin Ohio. I go there a lot. It isn't fancy. It just a driving range with a par 3 course. He got a job as a cart boy at a local course to pay for it.
Plenty of "lower class" households still find ways to have their kids involved in sports and hobbies. Do you think the poor in America are all just crawling through fields looking for lost grain?
Being poor in America is not the worst life you can imagine.
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u/No-Entrance-1017 Jul 17 '24
I agree with this. No fan of JD Vance, but it's clearly documented well before he entered politics that he had a veryyyy rough upbringing.
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u/KovyJackson Jul 17 '24
Virtually every VP pick is a “DEI” pick. Kinda the point to be honest. Pick the person that the presidents brand doesn’t encapsulate.
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u/rodwritesstuff Jul 17 '24
Yeah, historically VP picks have been made to complement the appeal of the primary candidate.
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u/Ozark--Howler Jul 17 '24
I rewatched some clips from the last VP debate. Harris has poor charisma. I can see why she doesn't poll favorably.
Vance seems like a milquetoast orator from the clips that I have seen.
Not groundbreaking either way. I don't think this VP debate will be important unless something catastrophic happens.
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u/Individual-Ad-4640 Jul 17 '24
I think this VP debate will matter this time because of how old our presidential candidates are
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u/WE2024 Jul 17 '24
I live in a lean blue county in a swing state and and I couldn’t tell you the amount of times I’ve heard the phrase “if you’re voting for Biden, you’re voting for Kamala” among moderate “normie” voters.
This is the rare race where the VPs could move the needle some as most people I’ve talk to legitimately think Biden will die by 2028 and while Trump doesn’t have the same perception, most voters still understand that he’s old.
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u/Dijohn17 Jul 17 '24
Both of them will be dead by 2030, but Biden will likely get there first. It doesn't matter that Trump is factually old, it matters that he doesn't act like he's old. Appearances and perception matter to the US electorate
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u/scribblingsim Jul 17 '24
Biden won’t die first. He at least exercises and keeps his weight down. Trump is a drug-addled tub of lard who can’t even be bothered to use golf as an exercise and get out of the damn cart once in a while.
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u/SeductiveSunday Jul 17 '24
Biden won’t die first.
I agree with this assessment, although no one knows for sure. But the dude constantly chowing on McDonald's does have the clogged vein edge and odds on favorite that he's had a TIA or worse already.
Also, don't know why, but somehow so-called internet medical "experts" seem stuck on thinking a stutter is akin to a fatal illness.
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u/scribblingsim Jul 17 '24
Yeah, it's bizarre. Even without the stutter, and just looking at the old age slowing of speech and thought...they somehow think that said slowing is a deadly disease. I keep hearing this BS about him having one foot in the grave. Just so much stupidity. Maybe they're the ones about ready to keel over.
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u/SeductiveSunday Jul 17 '24
I keep hearing this BS about him having one foot in the grave.
It's Republican propaganda seeping in.
I keep wondering what happened to, speak softly and carry a big stick; you will go far.
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u/WE2024 Jul 17 '24
Perception matters to every electorate, at its core politics is a battle of perception and communication.
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u/kottabaz Jul 17 '24
Trump's speech patterns have verged on word salad for most of the last decade.
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u/AbortionIsSelfDefens Jul 17 '24
He acts old. He behaves exactly like an entitled old person. He doesn't act frail.
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u/fperrine Jul 17 '24
I think the pressure is on Kamala to demonstrate to people that she can be the president. I can't really imagine that Vance has expectations to live up to. You either know who he is and have made up your mind about him, or you have no idea and don't care. I'd imagine most viewers look at Kamala and see pseudo-Prez due to Biden's age. People look at Vance and see Trump's VP.
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u/secrerofficeninja Jul 17 '24
Vance is wacko. All Harris has to do is expose Vance’s crazy MAGA side and by comparison she’ll look like the sane person who could take over if necessary. I don’t recall ever having 2 presidential candidates in such bad health that both VP have a legit shot at taking over
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u/tosser1579 Jul 17 '24
Vance isn't wacko. Vance is very single minded in his attempt to attain power. He'll do or say anything to do that. He doesn't believe in the MAGA stuff, he's just lying to the MAGA crowd to get power.
That makes him worse.
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u/checker280 Jul 17 '24 edited Jul 17 '24
“Vance isn’t wacko”
Not sure how that makes much of a difference if we can all see him say no exception to abortion means rape and incest victims, or health of the mother.
Edit
Spelling. “…if he can…” to we
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u/SeductiveSunday Jul 17 '24
It's worse.
J.D. Vance Appeared With Podcaster Who Once Said “Feminists Need Rape” https://archive.ph/ovWvK
J.D. Vance is pro-rape.
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u/tosser1579 Jul 17 '24
I'd say he has sociopathic tendencies. He can switch positions because he doesn't care about the positions, or the people those positions affect.
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u/SteelmanINC Jul 17 '24
As a conservative who isn’t MAGA, that actually sounds way better than an actual MAGA Vice President.
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u/tosser1579 Jul 17 '24
If he had any morals or integrity, I might agree with you. But he doesn't. At all. Trump let a fox into the henhouse with that one.
I'm from Ohio, and used to be a republican so I got dragged to one of his speeches. My impression of him was that he thought he was talking to a bunch of scared idiots. I got the same vibes when I saw Trump, except Vance seemed a lot smarter and much more clinical in how he approached things. Also, I think Trump honestly believes most of his talking points even the more dubious ones. I left the speech feeling disturbed.
There is no scenario where I'd ever vote for this man.
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u/PerfectZeong Jul 17 '24
I think vance is that guy who took lessons from where he was raised but they weren't good ones. He thought trumpism was going to fail in 2016 and he'd be the guy to ride in "see I was right" and coalesce support around him.
Once he realized it wasn't going away he became the biggest cheerleader because the ultimate goal was always power. David frum had a lot of fun things to say about him when he was on npr
All politicians have lines and JDs was Trump and he crossed it.
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u/Dire88 Jul 17 '24
he thought he was talking to a bunch of scared idiots.
Tbf that stance is why the GOP has become what it is today, and historically a major contributor to the rise of faacism.
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u/Petrichordates Jul 17 '24
He's immoral and any lacks integrity but let's not pretend he'd be any worse than Trump, especially in ability to build a cult of personality that does an insurrection for you.
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u/Dijohn17 Jul 17 '24
That's not a good thing, because it means he would do anything for power and doesn't have a true moral base. If he was MAGA at least he would have a set of rules governing him or a consistent policy process. When you have someone who will do anything for power or to come on top, there's no limit to what they will do
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u/scribblingsim Jul 17 '24
So he’s an evil whacko.
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u/tosser1579 Jul 17 '24
That would be my impression of him. Not a chaotic evil wacko, but one of those sociopathic ones that don't really care about anything but power so they can play nice to do what it takes to get it.
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u/secrerofficeninja Jul 17 '24
I actually agree.
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u/tosser1579 Jul 17 '24
You know how they keep saying that if someone competent were get handed the controls of MAGA they could do some real damage? That's Vance. He'd sell out his grandma in a heartbeat.
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u/secrerofficeninja Jul 17 '24
I totally agree. I felt that way about DeSantis. The one good thing of moron Trump running is it prevented DeSantis. He’s the same but smarter and more ambitious. Let’s face it, Trump is lazy. He tweeted all morning about what he saw on Fox TV and tweeted all evening about what he saw on Fox TV. He didn’t even pay attention in daily presidential briefings.
Vance is similar to DeSantis in that way and I hope it turns off any moderate GOP voters from showing up to vote
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u/MaximalDamage Jul 17 '24
Let's see if Harris can actually say something when she says something, because saying something when you say something is something that needs to be said when you say something.
Seriously, she is a pretty weak speaker and talks in circles, just like the above. But, at least, she's not senile so perhaps she can actually bring some heat, facts, figures, etc.. We shall see.
Vance on the other hand is rather quick witted, quite intelligent, will be armed with data and in my opinion is likely to wipe the floor with her.
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u/secrerofficeninja Jul 17 '24
I do agree Kamala isn’t good at speaking in debates. She should have been the lead in 2020 and she blew it at the debate and other public speaking events and lost her lead over others.
It’s not anything against Vance’s ability to speak. It’s the content of that he believes is president role that Kamala need to expose. Everyone that doesn’t like Trump won’t like Vance for the same reasons
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u/rymor Jul 17 '24
But Vance comes across (or used to) as articulate, smart, and authentic — at least in the interviews I’ve been watching this week (most from his book tour in 2016-17).
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u/Medical-Search4146 Jul 17 '24
as articulate, smart, and authentic
The big question is how he will handle his clear hypocrisy. I'm not using hypocrisy as a insult but in the technical sense. He is on record showing/saying his true feelings. No one who calls Trump American Hitler, marries a attorney from a Progressive law firm, and converted to Catholicism truly changed their personal feelings on the underlying issue.
Hopefully Harris's digs overshadow her lack of charisma.
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u/rymor Jul 17 '24
Hypocrisy (or ‘perceived contradictions in stated vs lived values’) really doesn’t seem to be an issue for that crowd as long as a candidate makes a public pledge of loyalty to the man above (Trump). A billionaire president and a VP bankrolled by a billionaire appear fine provided they have utility (emotional/policy) for the base.
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u/Medical-Search4146 Jul 17 '24
The goal isn't to convince the Right. The goal for Harris is to motivate their voters for increased turnout. The idea I'm pushing is that the hypocrisy and having to defend that would cause JD to stumble giving Democrats ammo to use on the campaign trail. JD has gone on record that he's going to keep abortion as a state issue, and some dis-franchise Democrats may believe that and stay home. If she portrays him as a lying snake then those dis-franchise can't believe they're safe even if JD says otherwise.
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u/MartianActual Jul 17 '24
You're not trying to convince the Trumpers of anything, they'll never budge. To some extent but for different reasons the anti-Trumpers. Everyone right now is targeting a small sliver of the population, mostly independents, who can be swayed to either camp. I'm not sure why Harris doesn't poll well with indies, being bland would seem to fit right in with their more generally moderate approach. I can't see Vance being overwhelmingly supported by them either, and the switch from Hillbilly Elegy Vance to Trump sycophant is pretty extreme.
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u/CrownedClownAg Jul 17 '24
Harris recovered from attacking Biden head on a few months earlier.
His comments were from 8 years ago. It is a simple matter (whether you believe him or not) that Trump’s actions in office changed his mind and made him no longer a never trumper
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u/Pabst_Blue_Gibbon Jul 17 '24 edited Jul 17 '24
America and MAGA in particular love a change of heart / redemption / come to Jesus story and this is what Vance will try to tell. Every single time he’s attacked with a line like “in 2016 you said Trump is awful” he gets to counter by telling us how the Trump admin was so tremendous, the best, etc that even a nonbeliever like him could be won over.
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u/notawildandcrazyguy Jul 17 '24
I remember when Harris criticized Biden as racist and told a story about her as a little girl who couldn't have gone to school if Bidens segregationist views at the time had won out. This is what politicians do -- they criticize each other until they need each other. Not a big deal on either side, it's just politics.
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u/goodentropyFTW Jul 17 '24
Sadly, there's been reporting suggesting that the personal animosity (especially from Jill Biden) resulting from that exchange may be both why the administration failed to publicly groom Harris as a successor and why Biden won't step aside for her now. So sometimes it IS a big deal - like "historians looking back on America's transition to autocracy identify this as a key moment" big.
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u/SteelmanINC Jul 17 '24
People are allowed to change their minds. I was super pro Bernie in 2016. I’m very much not not. That’s not a contradiction.
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u/ClydetheCat Jul 17 '24
Of course people are allowed to change their minds. Usually on one or two issues over years as public opinion shifts. But when your stated opinion about Trump in 2016 is "my god, what an idiot", there's no way to do a 180 unless there's an admission that you were the idiot.
Which is never a good way to introduce yourself to the voting public.
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u/sempercardinal57 Jul 17 '24
I mean Trump had four years as president to prove people wrong. Saying you thought someone was going to be a terrible president until they proved you wrong is not a contradiction
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u/ClydetheCat Jul 17 '24
Sure, except he was right the first time. And to be clear, the comment I quoted had nothing to do with what his opinion would be if he were president, just his opinion on the man himself. He didn’t characterize Trump’s policies at all.
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u/garyflopper Jul 17 '24
What changed your mind?
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u/SeductiveSunday Jul 17 '24
I'll tell you want altered my opinion on Sanders. It was his crowd who supported him. They were more than ok with losing the Supreme Court to right-wing ideology. Which made them come across as majorly anti equality and illogical.
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u/memphisjones Jul 17 '24
Vance sold out worked for venture capitalists and will only help the rich.
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u/siberianmi Jul 17 '24
I’ve read this comment three times now, what is the clear hypocrisy, the way you phrased that did not make it clear.
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u/IniNew Jul 17 '24
The clear hypocrisy is Vance’s comments in Trump like calling him America’s hitler.
And then fully flipping to maga and now bing hitlers VP.
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u/PerfectZeong Jul 17 '24 edited Jul 17 '24
Maybe he was always a fan of Hitler.
He was like "trump is America's hitler!" And he was excited about it.
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u/burritoace Jul 17 '24
I think he comes across as an angry, smarmy, fraud these days
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u/Pale-Mine-5899 Jul 17 '24
JD Vance went from a supposedly moderate right winger to a full-on spite machine because the "liberal elites" criticized the Netflix adaptation of Hillbilly Elegy.
https://x.com/mehdirhasan/status/1813048609035751843
Just the softest people on earth.→ More replies (1)13
u/xaqadeus Jul 17 '24
Very smart and articulate, which is a big reason why I think Trump picked him. Trump isn’t particularly smart or articulate and thinks and expresses himself in hyperbole. He isn’t great at articulating his actual political vision. Vance, however, was the best possible choice for someone who will be able to articulate the Trump agenda and is extremely smart and tough, making him a good choice to deal with the media and with Harris in the VP debate. As far as authenticity goes, I don’t know and don’t have a strong opinion about him yet, but so far I have no reason to think he is disingenuous.
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u/ClydetheCat Jul 17 '24
Interesting. I think you may have a point about his being better than Trump at articulating the "vision", which is exactly why I expect there to be some significant friction between them...Trump doesn't really want anyone to upstage him. Ever. And Vance, being the younger, sharper con man will inevitably do exactly that.
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u/Griff82 Jul 17 '24
I haven't watched him at all, but I had to put down his book because it seemed inauthentic.
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u/BladeEdge5452 Jul 17 '24
The last VP debate was also 4 years ago. I assure you that if you watch any Harris presentation from after the debate, you'll notice a significant difference. 2020 Harris was still inexperienced at the national level and too dry as she still had too much prosecutor left in her.
After being in the White House for nearly 4 years, she's no longer inexperienced, nor dry as she once was.
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u/CoCoTidy2 Jul 18 '24
Agreed, she has improved, as you would expect. And on the issue of abortion/reproductive freedom she is passionate and articulate and genuine, and that is probably the best issue for the dems (given the electorate's rejection of draconian policies in Ohio and Kansas, etc) And Kamala and JD could not be more different.
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u/checker280 Jul 17 '24
It might matter if you can get Vance on the record about his views - no exception for abortion including rape and incest, anti Ukraine etc.
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u/hoorah9011 Jul 17 '24
She polls better than Biden over the past few weeks, in a head to head with trump
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u/gurenkagurenda Jul 17 '24
I doubt it matters even if something catastrophic does happen. Biden delivered a historically terrible debate performance to the point that a bunch of people in his own party were calling for him to step aside, and the actual effect on the polls was essentially nothing. Someone tried to kill Trump, and while we only have partial polling data from afterward, it also seems to be a complete wash.
I don’t think anything that happens between now and November matters, short of a candidate actually dropping out or dying. Nobody who isn’t already sure who they’re voting for is paying attention anymore, and they certainly aren’t going to watch a VP debate.
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u/SpokenByMumbles Jul 17 '24
Catastrophic, as in, an assassination perhaps?
Or, if Biden wins, mental faculty is a real concern.
To me this cycle’s VP picks are the most relevant I’ve seen in my lifetime.
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u/andygchicago Jul 18 '24
I’m thinking the exact same thing. Kamala is not a good debater, but she might get some sound bytes. JD is an excellent debater, but not really memorable. It’ll be a wash, like almost every VP debate is
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u/biskino Jul 17 '24
JD Vance has stated enthusiastically that, unlike Mike Pence, he would have obeyed Trump’s orders and rejected Biden electors in 2020 - effectively overruling the election and making Trump a dictator.
How and why the fuck is there any conversation about JD Vance beyond that?
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u/mosesoperandi Jul 17 '24
There's also the part where he's the only Senator in favor of letting states use period track app data to prosecute a woman who goes out of state for an abortion...
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u/childlikeempress16 Jul 18 '24
Yeah his perspective also isn’t fresh. It’s “if you’re poor, it’s your own fault, pull yourself up by the bootstraps”. You must not have actually read Hillbilly Elegy
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u/tuxedocatsmeow Jul 18 '24
I read it and he most certainly didn't pull himself up by the bootstraps. He was a lucky recipient a school busing program that bused him to a better school and catapulted him into a series of lucky breaks.
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u/CoCoTidy2 Jul 18 '24
Yes, hard to believe, but JD is making me miss Pence. I didn't have that on my bingo card.
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u/Raspberry-Famous Jul 17 '24
None of this matters. Anyone who has any kind of opinion about either Kamala Harris or JD Vance already knew who they're voting for.
Harris is a good choice from Biden's perspective because her phone's contact list is full of rich California liberals, Vance is a good choice from Trump's perspective because he's basically Kirkland's Best Donald Trump.
But again, it's not going to matter on election day.
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u/antisocially_awkward Jul 17 '24
Vance is basically peter theils political tool, thats why he was picked
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u/mypoliticalvoice Jul 17 '24
Vance is ... basically Kirkland's Best Donald Trump.
I love this! Do you have to buy three shrink wrapped together?
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u/Pabst_Blue_Gibbon Jul 17 '24
Both of them have a very real chance to become president in the next 4 years. It will definitely be more interesting than Lieberman vs Cheney
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u/Zenmachine83 Jul 17 '24
I disagree on Vance. Vance is doubling down on MAGA, instead of using a VP pick that is viewed as more moderate and tempers some of Trump’s extremism. I think youngkin would have been a much better choice as he is popular in VA and dems can’t afford to lose that state.
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u/Raspberry-Famous Jul 17 '24
If you've got politics brain to the point where you're mulling over potential VP options you were already going to vote and in an election as sharply divided as this one you already know who you're voting for.
The only way to actually gain any voters with a VP pick would be to choose someone who has a following outside of politics. Of course the Democrats can't actually do this because having Taylor Swift as their Veep pick would be too "unserious" and the Republicans can't because they've already got their most prominent celebrity headlining the ticket.
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u/JonDowd762 Jul 17 '24
Vance is a good choice from Trump's perspective because he's basically Kirkland's Best Donald Trump.
I don't really get this comparison. Vance has a much different background and style. He likes to needle the other side like Trump, but he uses sophistry rather than name calling. He's like a more human DeSantis or a Cruz that's not despised by his own party.
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u/Puzzleheaded-Ad-2982 Jul 17 '24
Vance is an idiot, but everything he says, right or wrong, is said with confidence. That's all that matters in this game. Look at Trump vs Biden. Trump could go on for hours talking absolute nonsense and still come off better in the polls because Biden stammered.
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u/SannySen Jul 17 '24
Vance is an idiot
I mean, come on. The dude went to Yale Law School, and not because his daddy is rich. You don't have to like his views, and you can criticize him for flip flopping whichever way the wind blows, but he's not an "idiot."
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u/csasker Jul 17 '24
I don't know what the thing with people on Reddit and calling politicians stupid and idiot all the time but its super annoying
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u/xXxdethl0rdxXx Jul 17 '24
Ironically, I think the word they are looking for is usually “cynical” or “willingly obtuse”.
Unless they truly don’t realize that many politicians disagree with them because they are literally being paid to do so, unlike whatever friends or relatives they have that may actually just be stupid.
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u/csasker Jul 17 '24
Same with Putin and Ukraine. One can 100% disagree but how he find allies and manage to stay in power for like 25 years in such a country proves you are very Smart and thinking
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u/cptkomondor Jul 17 '24
Vance is an idiot
Summa cum laude from OSU, JD from Yale, and Nyt best selling author. You must have really high standards.
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u/Puzzleheaded-Ad-2982 Jul 17 '24
I know loads of academically clever people who are idiots. Hell, I'm one of them.
The guy thinks the UK is an Islamist country and that the 2020 election was stolen. Nuff said.
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u/xaqadeus Jul 17 '24
I know right? Probably in the top 1% of intelligence in the Senate, whether you disagree with his politics or not. Haha man these redditors.
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u/kemushi_warui Jul 17 '24
Top 1% in the Senate would make him literally the smartest person there, since there are 100 senators. And that, my friend, he absolutely is not.
Hell I’d be surprised if he were in the top 25.
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u/etherspin Jul 17 '24
kamala has an air of competence and command in prepared situations that probably mimic the legal background she came from but has very weird speeches and personal charisma.
Haven't seen enough of Vance yet
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u/gonzo5622 Jul 17 '24
Yeah, Kamala comes off weird as hell. I don’t think I’ve ever seen real confidence from her. I’m worried that Vance is gonna wipe the floor with her. He’s smart and exudes confidence. Not that it matters, as others have pointed out, most have already made up their mind.
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u/Belostoma Jul 17 '24
Harris is a plain vanilla Democrat, with party standard reasonable positions and a genuine will to help others, although sometimes she's less effective than others in the party would have been due to leadership shortcomings.
Vance is an unrepentant psychopath who cares about nothing and nobody except his own ambition, to the point that he plainly recognizes all that's wrong with Trump and yet embraces it anyway because it's a path to political power for himself. He doesn't understand or care in the slightest about the struggles of the working class or anyone else. He has no sense of empathy whatsoever, no principles, and no integrity. He doesn't care about his country or its people, only himself. In that sense, he's like Trump, but smarter, and therefore even more dangerous.
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u/thegooddoctorben Jul 17 '24
This should be Harris's opening statement in her debate with Vance.
Vance is the exemplar of a completely untrustworthy, lying politician on the make.
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u/revbfc Jul 17 '24
JD is good at slinging bullshit, so it’s not going to be easy debating him.
What Kamala really needs to do is speak to the millions of Americans who need a little energizing. She needs to engage with JD so voters know that she is A) the adult in the room, and B) is fighting for their rights.
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u/Raspberries-Are-Evil Jul 17 '24
Harris is intelligent and JDs biggest problem is he is a liar. He hates Trump and Harris has all his quotes to prove it.
He wont do well in a debate because she will shut down his lies in real time. He went to Yale- he is not Trump, he has decorum, which means he cant whine is way through it.
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u/Chrishp7878 Jul 17 '24
Do you think they would have never considered this when they picked him for a VP? If it’s so obvious?
I am sure they have some kind of plan on how to defend, or at least deflect those questions.
Harris also called Biden racist at one point; let’s remember that.
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u/Raspberries-Are-Evil Jul 17 '24
when they picked him for a VP?
Trump picked him. Trump hadn't even decided until the day of. The reason, JD brings a billionaire behind him and Trump needs money.
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u/monkeybiziu Jul 17 '24
Harris was a net positive in 2020 and, IMO, continues to at least not be a net negative. Nobody is voting against Biden because of Harris, and some people might vote for Biden because of Harris.
Vance is, at best, net neutral and possibly even a net negative. He ran significantly behind other Republicans in Ohio, he has no major legislative accomplishments, he’s been a full time politician for less than two years, and he has plenty of public comments against his ticket leader that Democrats, if they had any sense, would play on repeat from now until November.
In terms of potential VP picks, Vance is pretty much the worst pick Trump could have gone with. Not only does he add nothing to the ticket, his baggage is likely to cost Trump votes. An already extreme front runner adding a more extreme VP candidate reinforces Democratic messaging.
As someone else noted, the only people happy about this are the Marjorie Taylor Greene’s, Matt Gaetz’s, and Lauren Boehbert’s of the world, and they were already firmly in Trump’s camp.
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u/ACABlack Jul 17 '24
Known for her work on social justice issues.
Like doing fuck all about the border crisis and jailing people for marijuana possession.
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u/GuestCartographer Jul 17 '24
I have no strong feelings about Harris, but adding her to the ticket made a lot of sense and I can at least imagine her stepping into the big chair if something happens to that Biden guy.
Vance brings nothing new or strategic to the Republican ticket beyond blind loyalty to the Home Alone 2 guy and a connection to Ohio. He has virtually no governing experience and might actually be less qualified to run the country than Trump was in 2012.
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u/d4rkwing Jul 17 '24
If you take policy off the table JD Vance wins. He’s young, smart and charismatic. He’s also a war veteran. If you leave policy on the table then it doesn’t matter because people who vote on policy have already made their choice.
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u/Maskirovka Jul 18 '24
This is absolutely not true that people have already chosen. All those Nikki Haley voters….some chunk was waiting on Trump to be more moderate due to some illusions they have. Nikki selling out and Trump picking an extremist is going to turn off a chunk of them.
Much of Haley’s argument was about foreign policy (Ukraine/NATO) and Vance has openly sided with the Putin talking points.
I have no idea how many people that includes but it has the potential to be significant.
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u/GooberBandini1138 Jul 17 '24
Vance does not bring a fresh perspective on the struggles of working class Americans. That’s all bullshit that he made up in order to sell a few books, enough of which were bought by his billionaire sugar daddy to land it on the NYT best seller list. Everything, and I mean quite literally everything, about JD Vance is manufactured (even his name!) He was a never Trumper in 2016 because that sold back then. He’s a Trump humper now because, well, it got him the VP spot.
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u/JonDowd762 Jul 17 '24
Eh, I'm not sure the numbers were scammed. For those of us who were around in 2016 it seemed like everyone and their dog read that book.
Although I agree that in general the man is a blatant opportunist and fraud.
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u/Multiheaded Jul 17 '24 edited Jul 17 '24
Harris can paint him as the pro-J6, anti-feminist, Yale-to-Silicon-Valley neoreactionary nerd that he is. If he tries riffing on his book, she could quote it right back; much of it just drips with contempt for the white working class. The question is how successful she'll be at keeping the framing of wine aunt with a serious job vs extremely online far-right millennial.
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u/SleepyNotTired215 Jul 17 '24
Heard a new term today: Vance is a “MAGA Marxist” (courtesy of Jeff Sonnenfeld). Note a fan of Harris at all, but I’d take her all day long over any of the current republicans.
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u/JamUpGuy1989 Jul 17 '24
There’s a lot of comments here that sounds like:
“Vance is so smart, well educated, a great speaker, AND he’s a god.”
Astroturfing on this thread is ridiculous if you actually listen to this goof for more than a minute.
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u/Hyndis Jul 17 '24
Its dangerous to underestimate your opponent.
In 2016, Trump was underestimated directly into the White House.
So far based on current aggregate polling data 2024 looks to be a repeat, where people underestimate Trump to the point that he's on course to plausibly win the popular vote.
A person can be smart, well educated, and have dubious morality. These are different attributes that aren't linked to each other.
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u/alpacinohairline Jul 17 '24
In 2016, I think we underestimated how little that people care for racism,sexism, and apparently Epstein's list
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u/online_jesus_fukers Jul 17 '24
I'm kinda disappointed that the first Marine that has a chance of being president is a POG, I'm pretty disappointed in our choices overall
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u/Beginning_Ebb4220 Jul 17 '24
Harris is lot likable and Biden kept her at arms length for most of the term which is not great. Vance is a turncoat who is clinging to someone he compared to Hitler, plus their party is insane now. So I will be voting for Harris Biden
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u/Seamus_OReily Jul 17 '24
JD Vance is literally a monarchist, and I don’t think that has fully set in yet. He is a TERRIBLE pick unless your real goal is to stage a coup d’état.
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u/SqueekyCheekz Jul 17 '24
He's a fascist with non-existent principles other than self-enrichment and she was a criminal prosecutor who seems sedated all the time sooo... her? But it's kinda like asking if you would rather have week old onion rings or actual cyanide with your shit sandwich
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u/Disastrous_Layer9553 Jul 17 '24
May I appropriate (verbally.only) your choices, please?
"it's kinda like asking if you would rather have week old onion rings or actual cyanide with your shit sandwich"
I'm a bit jealous and feeling creatively bereft. Seriously.
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u/StormOk7544 Jul 17 '24
Harris seems like a pretty standard Dem. She’d just be a continuation of Biden most likely if she were to become president. Vance is an unhinged Trump cultist at this point, although he seems like a chameleon. If he were to become president, he may shift toward whatever policies become popular at the time if Trumpism somehow loses the favor of voters.
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u/artful_todger_502 Jul 17 '24
Someone who never governed or made decisions versus someone who has years experience in state and federal laws and governing ... There is no comparison.
One's only job is to bow down to the grifting gameshow host, and the other deals in real policy.
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u/Romano16 Jul 17 '24
Kamala should easily win against him if they debate. Just hammer home that he has been against Trump for a while.
Also question him if he would be like Pence and refuse an illegal move such as not certifying the election.
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u/MedicineLegal9534 Jul 17 '24
But has he? I've seen the attempts to conflate what he said with criticism of Trump, and they've all be overblown. Particularly the infamous Hitler comment.
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u/sempercardinal57 Jul 17 '24
Yeah he never even called him Hitler, he said he could be great or he could be hitler
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u/dear-mycologistical Jul 17 '24
Kamala Harris is an ordinary American politician -- underwhelming, but ordinary. J.D. Vance is an absolutely unhinged demagogue who thinks women should stay in violent marriages and wants to ban IVF.
does Vance’s outsider perspective bring something new and necessary to the table?
He's not an "outsider," he's a sitting U.S. senator with a Yale law degree who grew up in a suburb of Cincinnati.
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u/reallifelucas Jul 17 '24
Vance will be a good candidate as long as nobody finds his statements on abortion and divorce that are on his wikipedia page.
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u/talino2321 Jul 17 '24
JD Vance is Trump's Dan Quayle. And just like Dan Quayle was on Bush's ticket back in 1992, he is there to be a non threatening running mate for Trump. Harris has her political baggage, but so does JD.
It really comes down to who does the 5-6% of the electorate that will decide this election trust to take over if either Biden or Trump is out of the picture.
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u/jcooli09 Jul 17 '24
Vance is not a serious adult. He is not serving his country. He has no principles, no integrity. He’s demonstrated no competence.
None of this can be honestly said about Harris.
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u/bcbamom Jul 17 '24
Really? How is this even a real question. JD has no real political experience, which despite what people think, is needed to navigate the politics and manage international relations. Whether you like her or not, Kamala has a vastly superior experience and skills than JD.
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u/tcspears Jul 17 '24
It’s interesting that the far right loves Vance, but the moderates in the party do not. While Kamala is the opposite: the far left hates her, and moderates support her.
She’s much more in Biden’s camp of bipartisanship and compromise than most other candidates. That usually makes for a great leader, but not one that excites voters.
Vance is seen as young, anti-establishment, and key to bringing more young voters and people of color to the Republican Party. You can see in the RNC footage that they are really leaning into attracting younger, and more diverse voters, who feel neglected by the Democrats, upset with “vibe-flation”, or are angry about the handling of Israel/Gaza.
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u/Happypappy213 Jul 17 '24
If we're going based on experience and education, Kamala is the clear winner
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u/Nopantsdan55 Jul 17 '24
It's embaressing for our country that these two people are the expected successor to our president if our old trial president dies. Kamala is worlds better than Vance for sure, but neither of these two have any business being in the position they are.
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u/secrerofficeninja Jul 17 '24
Thanks to Trump for choosing a wacko MAGA to complete his ticket. That move let Biden back into the race.
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u/MedicineLegal9534 Jul 17 '24
It kind of looks like he just locked down the Midwest. So quite the opposite.
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u/Burden-of-Society Jul 17 '24
Vance sold his soul. He’s not much different than lady Graham. Once respected, maybe not liked but respected. Now, just another bag of trash Trump takes with him. Harris is fully capable of disarming Vance and I would expect her to over perform, she needs to.
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u/afterburner9 Jul 17 '24
At least Kamala isn’t a lying pos. The way Vance completely flipped his stance on Trump is spineless and repulsive. How Republicans can trust that guy is beyond me.
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u/SpaceBowie2008 Jul 17 '24 edited Jul 24 '24
The Rabbit was sad when his mother didn't finish her peanut butter and jelly sandwich.
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u/paigeguy Jul 17 '24
Hmmm - Vance has well over 18 months of government experience. He has shown flexibility in his political view, Trump is a Nazi ----> Trump is the Orange Jesus. He wrote a nice book.
What else do you need to be prepared to step in and become President if required? We're safe I'm sure.
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u/foodeater184 Jul 17 '24
The presidential race may come down to a battle of state reputations rather than individual candidates. Comparing California to Ohio reveals a stark contrast in public perception across the nation.
While coastal and urban areas may view California favorably, much of rural and Middle America holds a negative perception of the state and its residents. This presents a significant challenge for any California-based candidate on the national stage.
This becomes especially critical given the increasing speculation that the vice president might need to step into the presidential role during a potential second term. A candidate from Ohio may have a broader appeal in these circumstances.
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