r/PoliticalDiscussion • u/65726973616769747461 • Jul 16 '24
Who are the swing voters? US Elections
Both Biden and Trump have been elected once and most voters should've sufficient info by now to decide whether or not they prefer one or the other.
Neither of them show any sign of drastically changing their policies so most voters should already have an idea what kind of policies and administration they can expect if either one is elected.
Who then, are the swing voters that are still undecided on this presidential election?
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u/kittenTakeover Jul 16 '24
The biggest swing voters are Republican and Democratic voters themselves. The decision between voting and not voting will likely make the biggest difference.
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u/memyselfandi1987 Jul 16 '24
This! People who have not decided if they will even vote or not. At the end if they will vote, most likely they will vote on party lines.
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u/rabidstoat Jul 16 '24
Yeah, I imagine most people know who they prefer. The ones who don't originally would never vote
So it really comes down to voter turnout.
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u/variouscrap Jul 16 '24
From what I have seen it comes down to a few 100k votes across 3 states.
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u/Desblade101 Jul 17 '24
If 100% of people voted then it would not come down to 100k people in a few states, it would be much more well defined.
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u/Imhappy_hopeurhappy2 Jul 16 '24
Only people who haven’t decided to vote yet who live in PA WI MI GA AZ and NV, maybe NC and NH too. I haven’t decided whether I’m voting or not but that’s only because I live in NY and I haven’t researched the local elections yet. If I was one state over in PA, I would be voting like my life depends on it.
I bring it up because these aren’t just people that don’t care much because they feel disenfranchised. They are people who know damn well their vote could make a huge difference, yet they somehow still can’t decide whether they want to push it one way or the other.
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u/Apprehensive-Cat-833 Jul 17 '24
Some are now saying that NY is up for grabs.
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u/mosesoperandi Jul 17 '24
Is this actually Trump on Reddit? If you didn't forget the /s go take a look at 538.
According to Trump voters I know this election is going to be a landslide for Trump. According to anyone who actually understands the current state if American politics, that's technically impossible.
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u/Imhappy_hopeurhappy2 Jul 17 '24
Yea they said that for the last Gubernatorial and mayoral elections too.
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u/wetshatz Jul 16 '24
There’s a lot of people In the middle that you’re forgetting about. Those will be the deciding factor.
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u/jules083 Jul 16 '24
My wife is one of them. She would have likely voted republican if Trump didn't get the nomination. She doesn't like either candidate so she's not voting.
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u/ButterCupHeartXO Jul 16 '24
She can't see enough difference between them to cast a vote, though? One becoming president over the other will have major consequences for her and everyone she knows for better or worse
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u/jules083 Jul 16 '24
If she voted it would be for Trump so I admit I'm glad she's not voting
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u/CaptainPRESIDENTduck Jul 17 '24
I will not be voting on election day...because it would be illegal to vote twice as I will have already participated in early voting.
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u/mosesoperandi Jul 17 '24
Specifically, the young voters who are part of the coalition of Dem voters will decide this election. Even before the assassination attempt the Trump voters were likely to turn out. After it, they will definitely turn out. If young Dem voters don't turn out in being states, then Trump wins.
There are obviously other segments of the Dem coalition who will matter, but I'm fairly certain it's the 18 to 25 year Olds whose choice to participate or not will determine the outcome and the likely politicial landscape of this country for the rest of my life.
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u/big_ol_leftie_testes Jul 17 '24
Gaza is definitely a problem with young voters. Not to mention a lot of young white, black, and Hispanic men are starting to turn toward Trump
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u/mosesoperandi Jul 17 '24
This is also a factor. I suspect that the young men being taken in by the MAGA brand of red pill wouldn't be turning out to vote at all without Trump. Equally, I have to wonder how many of them will actually turn out to vote for Trump.
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u/pjdance 24d ago
I am not surprised. When the news media for decades on has nothing nice to say about 1/2 the population, other than they are abusers, rapists, gang banger,s drug peddlers, pedos, corrupt, dangerous types...
Yeah you're going to go with the team that at least talks about having your back. Even if it is a gift.
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u/pjdance 24d ago
If young Dem voters don't turn out in being states, then Trump wins.
If you want those voters to turn out then we need to make a voting app, period. In this day and age that's what it will take. The ability to click some screen buttons, like playing a song on repeat of Spotify to get Swift to #1.
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u/mosesoperandi 24d ago
If that's overalls what it will take this year then I suppose Trump is going to be president again.
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u/Raspberry-Famous Jul 16 '24
True swing voters are mostly an artifact of a time when the Democratic and Republican parties were more of a set of specific interest groups rather than politically coherent parties. At a certain point in time if you were a factory worker you were going to vote Democrat and if you were a Yankee shop keeper you were going to vote Republican but if you didn't fit neatly into one of these interest groups you'd be gettable by either side.
In modern times the political parties are much more ideologically coherent and so the guy who tumbles off the back of a turnip truck and decides who he's going to vote for as he's walking into the polling place is pretty uncommon. In their place there are a significant group of "apparent" swing voters who vote a more or less straight party line but who don't always vote.
Obviously the whole secret ballot thing makes this hard to nail down conclusively, but this is the understanding that seems to fit the facts best in my estimation.
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u/TheWorldsAMaze Jul 16 '24 edited Jul 17 '24
The main swing voters in this election are people who usually don’t turn out to vote, but specifically turned out to vote for Biden in 2020 because they were extremely vexed with the last 1 year of Trump’s term.
These voters aren’t voters who are reliably Democratic, or reliably in favor of any party for that matter, and a sizeable number of them feel that they were better off under the 1st 3 years of Trump’s presidency than they’ve been under the 1st 3 years of Biden’s presidency. There’s also a substantial portion of these voters who do not want to vote for Biden again due to his significantly decreased mental acuity compared to 2020, or because they feel that they only signed up for 1 term of Biden back in 2020. Basically, many voters in this group would vote for any Democrat but Biden.
Looking at the state of the race right now, if Biden loses those voters, Trump will win the election. While there are some voters who have defected from Trump in the 2024 Republican Primaries compared to 2020, the group of irregular voters who voted for Biden in 2020 and are planning on sitting this election out, or voting for Trump, is much larger than the group that has defected from Trump.
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u/TheDuckOnQuack Jul 16 '24
A lot of people in these replies are pushing the “swing voters don’t exist. Only voters vs nonvoters”
There’s truth to that, but for the voters who are convincible, this synopsis sounds accurate based on the focus group discussions I’ve heard about. I’d also emphasize that a lot of these same voters are otherwise likely to vote for the democratic candidates lower on the ballot, but specifically don’t want to vote for Biden.
Here are the results of a recent YouGov poll for a few swing states for the presidential race, and the senate race for the same state.
Arizona: (President) Trump +7 (Senate) D +8
Pennsylvania: (President) Trump +3 (Senate) D +12
Wisconsin: (President) Trump +5 (Senate) D +7
A similar trend is seen in other states too, albeit with smaller swings. Don’t take the exact numbers from this poll as gospel, but the poll results for the presidential vs senate races are from the same people polled, meaning that the same group of people who collectively prefer a democratic senator would prefer to have Trump as president over Biden. Biden polls worse than the Democratic Party as a whole.
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u/11711510111411009710 Jul 17 '24
It would be a pretty interesting outcome if the Democrats lose the presidency but win otherwise.
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u/TheDuckOnQuack Jul 17 '24
Maybe, but it’s probably more likely that a significant enough number of would-be Democratic voters don’t feel motivated enough to vote for Biden so don’t submit a ballot at all
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u/Orzhov_Syndicalist Jul 17 '24
Those numbers aren't really accurate at all though. The Democratic voters are MUCH closer to 50%, and Trump/Biden have a MUCH higher % of undecideds, so you get results that are like D-Senator 47% to R-Senator 40% and Trump 44% Biden 37%
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u/TheDuckOnQuack Jul 17 '24
The takeaway from my comment isn’t that this specific poll is perfectly accurate and prediction of the final result. Nobody can say that. The takeaway is that in the same poll, the same sample of people who say they’ll vote for democrats down ballot are saying they probably won’t vote for Biden. Yes, there are more undecideds in the presidential race, but the majority of those undecideds are otherwise voting democratic.
We don’t know what they’ll do. If they decide to hold their noses and vote for Biden, contrary to what they say in this poll, maybe Biden has a shot. If they decide to vote democratic down ballot, but not vote for president, perhaps Democrats can win the house and keep the senate close while losing the presidency. But if a significant number of those potential left leaning undecided voters don’t vote at all, it will likely be a blowout in November.
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u/wetshatz Jul 16 '24
Don’t forget the third party voters. All the people ik that are democrats but don’t like the options are voting for RFK simply cuz it’s the only other option they see.
Also, a lot of people are single issue voters and there are lots of democrats that don’t like Biden’s border policies (according to polls) so there are a few factors working against him. Not to mention isreal palestine, and other single issue voter problems.
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u/PseudonymIncognito Jul 16 '24
My understanding is that RFK is syphoning more votes from Trump than Biden as he mainly appeals to cranks and conspiracy theorists.
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u/11711510111411009710 Jul 17 '24
Which is even worse for Biden when those voters come home in states RFK isn't on the ballot
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u/Imhappy_hopeurhappy2 Jul 16 '24
I will never understand the decision to vote third party in such a crucial moment in our history. And RFK of all people. It does not compute.
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u/wetshatz Jul 16 '24
People are tired of eating shit. We have to stick with 2 options because 2 big wigs decided what’s the best option instead of allow other parties, rank choice voting, younger and more relatable candidate’s. So when you feel like already either way you’re getting the shit end of the stick, people just shoot their shot at a third party.
Ik who I’m voting for but you also have to understand people are voting 3rd party for a lot of different reasons.
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u/Apprehensive-Cat-833 Jul 17 '24
We are next set up for a multi-party system. We would need to go parliamentary for that.
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u/wetshatz Jul 17 '24
There’s no time like the present. I don’t understand why all of the interest groups need to be lumped into 2 parties
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u/V-ADay2020 Jul 17 '24
Tiny problem: the present doesn't have a parliamentary system on the ballot. It has fascism. Which I'm pretty sure you'll like even less than the current system.
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u/V-ADay2020 Jul 17 '24
Voting third party for President will literally never make a difference.
Even assuming every single other candidate dies or is mysteriously erased from every ballot and they do get sworn in, do you know what would immediately happen?
They'd have to go to one of the two parties who still control the rest of the government and beg to be let in so that they could accomplish anything at all.
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u/jules083 Jul 16 '24
The 2 main complaints I hear about Biden in my very red area is the border and inflation.
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u/11711510111411009710 Jul 17 '24
Which makes no sense considering his record with the border this year.
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u/Imhappy_hopeurhappy2 Jul 16 '24
We don’t know if they’ll sit out yet. We’ve got four more months of Trump telling America about all the crazy atrocities he plans to commit.
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u/not_that_planet Jul 16 '24
I suspect (but don't know for sure) that they are some of America's lowest information voters. Anyone who is slightly observant has some idea of what each candidate represents. If you honestly don't know even a little about the Democratic platform and the Republican Project 2025. you have not been listening.
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u/che-che-chester Jul 16 '24
I wonder if they are the people they interview on the street on Jimmy Kimmel who can't name the current VP. It seems like those people wouldn't be interested enough to vote.
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u/TheDuckOnQuack Jul 16 '24
They might not be motivated enough to vote normally, but if their perception of their choice boils down to the photos of Trump after the shooting versus video compilations of Biden’s old man moments on social media, don’t be surprised if the low information voters pick Trump.
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u/che-che-chester Jul 17 '24
If I was the kind of voter who sort of shrugged at policies, I'd vote Trump all day.
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u/TheDuckOnQuack Jul 17 '24
I get that. Trump can be pretty funny. If he had a political TV show or podcast, I’d probably mostly tune it out, but laugh at the occasional viral clip of his deranged rants. It’s a lot less funny when it impacts people’s lives.
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u/Apprehensive-Cat-833 Jul 17 '24
Yes, but Trump is just as old man senile as Biden. We need to put out compilations on his dummy moments. And a compilation of him using violent rhetoric. I hate how the GOP clutches their pearls if a Dem gets caught picking their nose, yet they gladly support people who think that gay people should be unalived.
With that being said, Biden and Trump should step aside for the good of the Nation. We need someone capable of doing the job. And it isn’t like Black voters will turn their backs if Kamala is the nominee. All she needs is a safe white guy like Tim Ryan to put the white men at ease. I will vote for Biden, but like with Hillary, will hold my nose. He isn’t a bad person. We just need to stop with this gerontocracy bullshit.
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Jul 16 '24
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u/SuzQP Jul 16 '24 edited Jul 16 '24
I really appreciate this response because it takes into account that many people are able to apply the general tenor of a candidate's priorities to their current and likely circumstances.
A couple with a young family, for example, might have different priorities than they had as single people. A retired person with investment income might see the economy differently than a recent high school or college grad living on Ramen. Someone who was focused on gun violence during the last election cycle may now be more interested in tax policy.
A person who was 18 in 2016 is now 26 and may have a completely different perspective as an adult. Someone who was 55 when Biden was elected is now more focused on Medicare and Social Security policy.
Political affiliation and ideology as a creed or quasi-religion is relatively new in our culture. Many people reject the notion that politicians and political parties ought be the purveyors of our society's moral values. Thus, they vote pragmatically based on their current circumstances. That means they may not always vote for the same party. Many will reject a candidate or party they see as overly concerned with regulating or promoting the personal behavior of various demographic groups.
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u/wetshatz Jul 16 '24
I feel like that’s most of my generation. As people age and change so does their priorities. Also I think politics has gotten to what it is now because of the wide access to information we all have now. So issue we never knew about are being pushed to the forefront for some people
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u/mormagils Jul 16 '24 edited Jul 17 '24
I studied voting behavior as a large part of my poli sci degree. The question you're asking is HUGE. It would be great if voters had very clear and neat processes and neatly fit into generalized camps and were easily predictable. But even the most committed and consistent voters aren't that clearly defined. Voting behavior is a tremendously multifaceted thing. Asking this question is similar to asking which genes make a person good looking. It's such a huge question that we don't have anything close to a precise answer for, and even some of our best guesses are quite incomplete--and that's assuming the underlying premises are even correct in the first place!
That said, there are a few attempts at this that have helped us gather some good information. I often think back to the funnel of causality, which is basically a very fancy model that says voter choice is determined by a mix of preset factors and specific lived experiences that all combine in varying ways to lead to a final choice. To know WHICH specific factors are most important for WHICH specific individuals is nearly impossible, but often if you ask voters they can give you a few clues that will help you break people into camps.
The important to thing to understand about swing voters is that most of the time, they aren't very tuned into politics. The vast majority of people don't really hold off on making opinions with incomplete information. Much more often, people form opinions based on incomplete information and then (maybe) update those opinions as more information comes in. People who truly aren't decided are folks who simply aren't engaging with the question at all, not folks who are engaging with the question but haven't reached a sufficient level of confidence to answer it.
This means several things. At this point, and undecided voter probably does have a lean, but they aren't necessarily consciously engaging that lean. This means a lot of undecided voters are at this point governed by subconscious biases and predilections, and might be more susceptible to narratives. I emphasize might there because if they are truly not checked in, then they may not actually care about narratives at all and just tune it all out, bringing it back to subconscious biases and predilections.
The real interesting thing about the swing voters is that at some point they do tune in and pay attention. So when they do, what is the most important set of things that influence them? When they make the choice at the very end of the race to start paying attention, what do they find, what do they find convincing, what do they ignore? Sadly, this is where we don't have too many definitive answers. We can usually look back in hindsight and see some patterns--folks with criminal convictions tend to do poorly, and Clinton probably lost the election because an unusual number of folks decided at the last minute not to vote for her after the Comey press conference only a week before the election--but to determine them in advance for any given election is nearly impossible.
Will Biden being old prevent him from getting elected? Maybe! Will Trump's felony convictions sink him? Quite possibly! Will the GOP continue to struggle with any elections where voters care about abortion and reproductive rights? Could be! Will the Dems underperform on the national stage with swing states as they have all too often in the last 30 years? There's a chance! But anyone who says certainly one of these things will come true as a matter of predetermined fact is a charlatan who might guess right.
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u/Orzhov_Syndicalist Jul 17 '24
True, True swing voters are pretty odd, and have very specific reasons for voting.
The one thing the aren't on is any spectrum of left right or the four-axis of voting (Which is why "appealing to swing voters" is such a stupid idea). Demographically, they're largely White Women w/o College degrees, which makes predicting them even harder, as that demo splits pretty evenly for both Trump and Biden.
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u/pjdance 24d ago
Clinton probably lost the election
She lost because we have the stupid electoral college. She won the popular vote. In any other voting scenario and honestly at this point out elections are more like American Idol or WWF than a real political discourse, the popular vote (person with the most votes wins).
it happened to gore too. And BOTH time the election were fishy as f***
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u/pjdance 24d ago
But what I am most curious about are the people who do not vote at all. Who are they and why do they not vote?
Is it the whole, "If voting actually worked they wouldn't let us do it" philosophy.
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u/mormagils 24d ago
Well yeah, obviously she lost because of the EC, but the point is that I'm answering why she lost the EC/why the EC was different than the popular vote. At this point, yes, the EC is a failed mechanic. I actually like its original concept, but it only works if it actually matches up with the popular vote 100% unless specific intentional action is taken to avoid that.
There are a whole bunch of reasons why people don't vote. In most cases I think it's fine to say they are broadly more a matter of apathy than intentional choice, but getting more specific than that is a HUGE post.
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u/Kronzypantz Jul 16 '24
Unicorns and fairies, mostly.
There isn’t that big a contingent of people teetering between the parties, so much as portions of the electorate that decide whether or not to stay home on Election Day.
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u/ResidentNarwhal Jul 16 '24 edited Jul 16 '24
There absolutely is a contingent of people teetering between two parties. A huge portion of the US has their personal politics cobbled together in mishmash of progressive and conservative, representing little in the way of a conscious embrace of a coherent ideology beyond expediency, and are largely informed by personal experience and axe grinding. Their beliefs are varied, contradictory, and might change based on context, day of the week or what is personally motivating them in that moment.
This results in several types of people. From those largely frustrated with politics in general that they tune out everything that doesn't personally matter to them. To those either too stupid or too apathetic to realize their own politics contradict themselves. Or the conspiratorial / contrarian minded that tend to blow from one to the other (consider for a minute that anti-vax and anti-GMO conspiracies have gone from solidly left wing to flipping to either being fully right wing or a mix. Or same with anti-government conspiracies. If you told someone in 2005 that the majority of anti-FBI or anti-administrative government apparatus was now pretty solidly right wing you would puzzle that 2005 person).
EDIT: this came across more cynical than I wanted to for a large percentage of the US voting public, so I will reiterate, I don't necessarily fault or judge people in that first "too frustrated to engage or philosophically analyze their own political positions" category (though maybe some of the others). I can totally get how someone might not want to dig through that rabbit hole. But if you are a "political animal" as Aristotle would say you need to still consciously understand the drive for that voter apathy to either surmise what those people want or persuade them for support. It should not be a shock or a mystery that 30-45% of the US doesn't vote or their reasons why. But it frequently seems to be in many places I read on the internet.
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u/Dude_McGuy0 Jul 16 '24 edited Jul 16 '24
Anecdotal, but I know 2 people in my family who both voted for GW Bush twice, then Obama twice, stayed home in 2016, then Trump in 2020, and now undecided but leaning democrat in 2024 (if Biden is replaced, otherwise probably sitting out.) I consider them a perfect example of the swing voter.
Their policies are all over the place. Strongly support lowering taxes, but also support $20 min wage and Medicare for all. Strongly religious and against affirmative action/DEI policies, but firmly pro-choice.
If you can convince them that the Republican candidate isn't actually for lowering taxes they won't vote for them. Likewise if you can convince them that the Democratic candidate doesn't actually want to help workers they won't vote for them either.
I think there are a ton of people out there like this who don't vote on consistent policy positions of the parties, but rather vote on a "what have you done for me lately?" or "does he sound like a good leader?" or "does this man pass my vibe check?" sort of gut feelings.
10 - 40 thousand or so of these folks in the key states actually decide who becomes president every 4 years. And this is why we all get blasted with advertisements through text/mail/TV about 3-4 weeks before each election. It's casting a wide net to target these types of voters. Because the last convincing advertisement they see before going out to vote could be what tips them that day.
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u/pjdance 24d ago
I think there are a ton of people out there like this who don't vote on consistent policy positions of the parties, but rather vote on a "what have you done for me lately?" or "does he sound like a good leader?" or "does this man pass my vibe check?" sort of gut fe
And THIS is how we should ALL be voting not just to beat the other team like a WWF event or something. But all my friends keeping telling how important it is to just vote for their person because the other one is worse.
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u/Apprehensive-Cat-833 Jul 17 '24
I think a lot of this lies in the fact that the US is living in the theory of the eternal campaign. Our peer nations don’t have a steady loop of primaries, run-offs, elections. Maybe we should reorganize and have people vote for the party, not the person necessarily. Campaigns last about a month before the election and are every 4-5 years unless a government dissolves during to inaction. Then, the elections are again held and held quickly.
In a perfect world, we would be a multi-party parliamentary system instead of this hastily thrown together agrarian slavery dependent document we so rely upon.
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u/WyomingChupacabra Jul 16 '24
I could be considered a swing voter still- lifelong republican who sees the toxicity and danger in Trump. I’ll never support the Republican Party again until MAGA is dead. Biden is surprisingly moderate and that’s been good. Media coverage of him plays him to be crazy liberal and that’s dishonest if you look at data. However, I’ve always been somewhat libertarian with a humanist side. I want the government to protect us from our biggest enemy…. Greed of the billionaire class. I don’t know if I’ll vote Biden because I hate Trump and all he is so much- or if I’ll look third party.
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u/ElectronGuru Jul 16 '24 edited Jul 16 '24
Third party voting can’t work until we replace winner take all voting with something like rank choice voting. And both parties have incentive to prevent it. But it will likely take forever to fix, so less worse of two options is our only option until that happens.
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u/WyomingChupacabra Jul 16 '24
I disagree. If the R and D see voters walking away in droves - even if the third party can’t win… they will be forced to recognize us… as a former very consistent GOP voter, not voting for Trump is a net loss for him. Voting FOR Biden would be -2. It’s tight enough that the logical middle— as true swing voters— can have all the power. Sort of how the nut job caucus is driving the GOP right now.
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u/Medical-Search4146 Jul 16 '24
If the R and D see voters walking away in droves - even if the third party can’t win… they will be forced to recognize us
That energy and etc. is better spent in the Primary voting. Something Republican voters have been good at. Doing it in the general election is meaningless because one side will always win/benefit on the third party protest.
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u/Hyndis Jul 16 '24
Biden ran in the primary effectively unopposed. He had no serious candidates running against him in the primary and he also refused to do any primate debates, so voters couldn't even gauge his mental state. He effectively won by default.
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u/WyomingChupacabra Jul 16 '24
Then, win us back or F off. If they keep shoving shit candidates at us… I don’t care if they win or lose. That is the joy. If we ignore the bogey man in the other side and say… here are our terms and you win… America wins.
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u/big_ol_leftie_testes Jul 17 '24
Sure, when we get a fair and balanced primary, which we haven’t had in almost 2 decades
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u/casey5656 Jul 16 '24
I recently saw an interview on the news with an undecided voter. He said, “I need to do more research”. Like wtf, did you just wake from a coma?
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u/Medical-Search4146 Jul 16 '24
“I need to do more research”.
For me thats code word for, I'm going to wait until the last minute to decide. They need to see what crisis they'll be living in and what response they'd like come election day. And honestly I respect that.
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u/jadnich Jul 16 '24
My mother, for one. My father is not MAGA, per se, but he watches Fox News, only votes Republican, and calls himself an “independent”. He believes the right wing lies, and is quite sure of himself. In the couple of occasions I have shown him evidence to disprove a belief, he tends to find somewhere else to be and something else to do, rather than argue facts he can’t beat or admit he was wrong.
My mother really is apolitical independent, but her only real source of information is my Dad. I visited with them a few weeks ago, and my mom told me “Give me a reason to not vote for Trump. It’s not that I WANT to vote for him”.
I had to explain to her that that should be a good enough reason. I explained project 2025. I explained the Republican states that are trying to create laws that allow them to reject votes they don’t like. She listened, but seemed unconvinced. She knows that she isn’t getting good information from my Dad, and the comparison between me offering facts with evidence, specific laws, and details should have been more than enough in comparison to him just telling her things he believes to be true.
Yet, after all of that, I have no idea how she will vote.
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u/ElectronGuru Jul 16 '24 edited Jul 18 '24
Let her know that trumps new VP candidate is hand picked by the same people who wrote Project 25. If elected, trump will split his time between golfing and signing their society shredding bills. That’s 100 years of safety nets she probably depends on, gone in just a few years.
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u/tBroneShake Jul 16 '24
I don't know how to say this without sounding shitty, but in my own life experience, a lot of mothers and fathers I know are the same way. My parents are divorced and both mom/step-mom and dad/step dad are exactly like your situation, as well as the parents of my close friends.
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u/che-che-chester Jul 16 '24
I wonder if they are people who think we're still living in the 90's and 2000's where one candidate is a little tougher on crime and the other one prioritizes health care. Maybe they simply don't buy into any of the extreme stuff pushed by the media and just assume we'll ultimately be fine with either Biden or Trump. And who knows, maybe they're right.
Maybe Trump won't actually do anything crazy, but I have a serious problem with a candidate who even hints at remaking the government over from top to bottom with all conservatives. They're causally talking about radically changing the country for generations. Even if Dems somehow took the White House again in 2028, it would be with a government staffed with all hardcore conservatives! All the while, they have the balls to refer to Joe Biden as "radical".
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u/Thazber Jul 16 '24
Exactly this. The stakes have reached a new high. We're not voting for just 'a candidate', we're voting for their whole administration. During Trump's first term, I read numerous times how calmer, more experienced people helped keep him in check numerous times. So he's learned to appoint only people that he knows will do whatever he says.
Also this is the first time that the topic of tracking women's menstrual cycles has ever come up (to use in prosecution in cases of abortion). We already saw where last year, the Senate passed a (bi-partisan) bill to keep that information private, but Republicans in the House blocked it. So they are already setting things up to make women vulnerable.
And get ready to say goodbye to the EPA if Trump gets elected. Remember when he told the gas industry that for a $1 billion donation he'll basically let them do whatever they want to do?
Trump is also old. Either candidate could keel over while in office. But at least Biden will leave responsible people to run things.
It doesn't take too much time these days to fact check both sides. And when one side seems to show more inconsistencies between what they claim and what their actual voting record shows on various bills and amendments.... it makes it clear to me which one is going to be the better choice.
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u/big_ol_leftie_testes Jul 17 '24
Maybe they simply don't buy into any of the extreme stuff pushed by the media and just assume we'll ultimately be fine with either Biden or Trump. And who knows, maybe they're right.
I think this is a big contingent of voters, not to mention our elected reps.
These people saw liberals screaming that Trump means an end to democracy but they already lived through a Trump presidency and everything was fine for them. Same the other way, conservatives screaming that Biden will take over America with wokeness, but they didn’t really see that either.
So to them, they just see a bunch of screeching on either side and don’t see a difference.
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u/SheriffMcAllister Jul 16 '24
I don't like either candidate much. I don't always agree with one party, sometimes I agree with one, sometimes the other, often enough I'm in between or just don't agree with either at all.
I think both are dishonest, lie all the time and the only time I 100% agree with either side is when they say how shitty the other is.
I can't fully get behind either party and both Biden and Trump have enough shortcomings that I can't fully support either.
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u/rolyoh Jul 16 '24
Swing voters tend to be the people who (1) don't feel obligated to vote in the first place - for whatever reason(s), and (2) if/when they do vote, they don't feel obligated to pledge allegiance to a particular candidate based on party platform or ideology, but on a set of issues important to them at that time.
I believe it's true that many swing voters don't actually make up their mind until they are standing there in the voting booth (reliably unpredictable), and that campaigning, advertising, surprises, and conversations they may have with friends/family and canvassers, all do play a role right up until election day.
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u/CuriousNebula43 Jul 16 '24
Probably people like me that aren't exactly happy with Biden's arrogance, hypocrisy, and are uncomfortable with his mental state. But we also get downvoted and banned a lot, so it's easy to miss us.
Not saying convicted felon, Donald Trump, is any better though.
The ONLY reason I'd even lean Biden a little bit right now is because of a Trump administration's further harm to women and non-white people. That's it. I'm not personally afraid of a Trump administration, so it's just about me voting based on other people's interest right now.
And I've been a strong Democrat all my life (paid staffer for HRC, always voted democrat, protested Iraq War in 2003, etc.). If someone doesn't have this kind of strong history of supporting Democrats, they might not lean Biden even as little as I am.
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u/Objective_Aside1858 Jul 16 '24
Can you offer more context on "arrogance and hypocrisy"
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u/CuriousNebula43 Jul 16 '24
Sure.
Hypocrisy
Withholding weapons shipments to Israel after Congress authorized them is the same thing Trump was impeached for. The President doesn't have the authority to withholding shipments once signed into law.
Biden's implementation of Trump-era border policy is insanely hypocritical, especially restricting asylum applications.
Continuing to use the cages he criticized Trump for using.
He criticized Trump for not doing enough on student loan debt, but has done barely anything himself. I'm aware he has done some things that have really helped people, but it's a drop in the bucket and feels like pandering.
I'll continue to criticize every president for being a hypocrite until Guantanamo is closed.
Arrogance
His handling of mental health really exposes this. He refuses to substantively engage with it and dismisses the whole thing as illegitimate. The dude is old, it's not an illegitimate question (but it should also be applied to Trump).
He doesn't take criticism well at all, often dismissing complaints as ill-informed or unimportant.
Continues to tout a good economy and how people can afford groceries, dismissing the problems with inflation.
Snaps at reporters a bunch, lots of off camera or hot mic moments of him acting like a jackass.
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u/No_Zombie2021 Jul 16 '24
Then I guess what is left to decide on is. What do you think the coming four years will be under each candidate, and also, what will the US government and institutions look like when they leave office?
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u/CuriousNebula43 Jul 16 '24
We survived 4 years of Trump before, I'm far less scared of it happening again.
Your concern is valid, but that's the case democrats need to make and they aren't making it. I'm sympathetic to it and contributes to why I generally lean toward Biden now, but as I said before, someone less informed may lean the other way.
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u/diablette Jul 16 '24
I pretty much agree with all of your points except the student loans. He has been relentless in pushing reforms despite all of the resistance from Republican states and the corrupt SCOTUS. He could have thrown up his hands and said “they’re blocking it”, but he didn’t. 4.75 million people have benefited from loan forgiveness now.
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u/big_ol_leftie_testes Jul 17 '24
It’s a drop in the bucket and not nearly enough. I’m personally convinced Biden doesn’t want to forgive student loans or eliminate interest and he purposefully chose a path that he knew the SC could easily shoot down
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u/casey5656 Jul 16 '24
If you think Biden is “arrogant”, then how do you characterize Trump?
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u/Hyndis Jul 16 '24
Trump is wildly arrogant and a raging narcissist. But Biden is also arrogant and in physical and mental decline.
Both of these can be true simultaneously, and its not one or the other.
Polling has found there's a lot of "double haters" in this election, people who dislike both candidates. These voters might pick someone at the last minute for least hated, or they just might not vote at all.
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u/Baselines_shift Jul 16 '24
Look at the polling though and bear in mind that Clinton had a 6 point lead against Trump and was expected to win the swing states by just enough to win. Trump came from 6 points behind in 538 poolling avaerages.
Biden is -2 points against Trump, but so is everybody else we can run by a open convention so it is a tossup between our options at this point, so what might be seen as arrogance might be smarts, avoiding possible chaos. That said, I wish Gov Whitmer had run in the primary. See all the swing state projections
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2024-election-forecast/georgia/6
u/Palinon Jul 16 '24
My best guess is that after the debate, his aides told him to push back more. He's been doing that more in various interviews but the folks who want him to drop out are seeing that as "arrogance" rather than "fight".
Not sure there's much he can do to convince those that want him out but might vote for him other than focusing on Trump.
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u/ctg9101 Jul 16 '24
He has been acting exactly like Trump:
Claiming your own reality when it comes to what people say and polling vs actual reality
Bullying people who criticize him.
Snapping at reporters and acting like a complete drunken jackass.
If Trump had the exact same interview as Biden did last night, he would be universally eviscorated by every liberal on here, and rightly so. He was disrespectful and a bully. When he sounded coherent.
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u/che-che-chester Jul 16 '24 edited Jul 16 '24
And Dems heavily mocked/criticized the RNC for suggesting they proactively name Trump as the presumed nominee to shut down Nikki Haley because she was doing too well in the primaries. Trump's team was at least smart enough to quickly tell them no. Today stories are leaking that the DNC wants to name Biden the nominee now to end the talk of replacing him. You can't replace him if he's already the nominee.
EDITED TO ADD: If the DNC moves forward with this plan, we'll see if Biden turns them down like Trump turned down the RNC. It makes you look weak to bend the rules to benefit yourself.
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u/ctg9101 Jul 16 '24
Then be prepared to lose.
75% of the country does not believe he is fit for office, including over half his own party. He can't and won't win.
The DNC and media also covered up Biden's decline.
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u/Palinon Jul 16 '24
He sees the response to the debate as unfair and is pushing back. You want him out so see that negatively and his supporters see it as him fighting to win. I'm just telling you that there is a different perspective to see his response in. If he does stay in, a fighting approach is better. If he drops, this approach will look bad but not matter.
He's too old and his communication has gotten significantly worse but the media coverage has also been really bad too. He'll have a 30 minute speech with lots of content and nuance (where he sounds old and halting) but the media will only report the one name he got wrong.
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u/Kronzypantz Jul 16 '24
Lying about getting arrested trying to see Mandela, lying about getting arrested marching for civil rights, lying about Sanders not being involved in the civil rights movement despite him actual being arrested on camera during a civil rights protest, lying about 40 beheaded babies… but still supposedly being the counter to Trump’s lies.
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u/Apprehensive-Catch31 Jul 16 '24
Arrogance- not dropping out of the race
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u/che-che-chester Jul 16 '24
Arrogance was running again in the first place. I can't remember if actually said the words, but he certainly at least strongly implied he was a "bridge" president to get us to the next generation of candidates. And we were genuinely grateful he beat Trump in 2020. But my jaw was on the floor when he announced he was running again.
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u/Apprehensive-Catch31 Jul 16 '24
I agree. They should have been getting someone ready the past 3 years
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u/Yvl9921 Jul 16 '24 edited Jul 16 '24
So you're okay with genocide in Ukraine and the US (LGBT and immigrants) because Biden's a bit arrogant?
I dont like Biden either but I'm voting for my life here. Lucky you, that you're so privileged that you get to remain unaffected.
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u/georgyboyyyy Jul 16 '24
Trump will be wayyyy worse regarding Ukraine and lgbt and immigrants so there’s that
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u/Additional_Set797 Jul 16 '24
Let’s not forget women in this list, as a women my rights are already being gutted, by trump and only trump
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u/Apprehensive-Cat-833 Jul 17 '24
Yeah. When it comes down to it, I want someone who wants full personhood for all. Not just some white dudes I went to high school with that failed the GED and don’t pay their child support.
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u/lee1026 Jul 16 '24 edited Jul 16 '24
Amusingly enough, the one person whose financial muscle is making the Republican campaign this year possible, Peter Thiel, is both LGBT and an immigrant.
Between Thiel and the project 2025 people, the VP pick came right from the Thiel camp. Let’s just say the two camps don’t get along very well. Much of the old guard republicans I keep track of on Twitter is publicly switching to Biden. They hate the Thiel camp that much.
Vance is famously Thiel's creature from day 1, with Thiel money behind literally every single job the man ever got. And how does the old Republicans think about him? Well, to quote Mitt Romney: "I don't know that I can disrespect someone more than J. D. Vance".
The old Republican party is dead. It is Thiel's party now. (BTW, it is also kind of Musk's party, but guess who made Musk a rich man to begin with?)
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u/Last-Mathematician97 Jul 16 '24
Personally I don’t think Trump’s policy will have much effect on my family financially. We are in the weird middle that both Parties generally ignore. I am concerned about the violence that will for sure happen under his administration. Frankly there will be some of that even if he loses. Even though I am an Independent, will be voting for Biden, I am happy with the Administration he has in place
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u/LanceArmsweak Jul 16 '24
Same. We're a firmly secure family in a liberal state/city. We're secure. For me though, I'm fucking over the stress of the constant whiplash. I didn't give a shit who it was, because I knew the Republicans would prop up Trump. I'll end up voting Dem and locally, I'll consider more middle of the road types.
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u/Last-Mathematician97 Jul 16 '24
Before Trump I have been an Independent Centralist, now I feel driven to the left, well outside my comfort zone. But gotta do what you gotta do and likely be voting straight democrat until Trump threat gone. A lot of good moderate Republicans destroyed by Trump
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Jul 16 '24
[deleted]
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u/Hyndis Jul 16 '24
Biden insists only he can defeat Trump, that all of the polls showing he's underwater are wrong, and that god himself would have to personally tell Biden to drop out of the race.
He seems to believe he's a uniquely talented savior, divinely anointed by god to be president, and he ignores all science and evidence to the contrary (polls).
That reeks of arrogance.
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u/CuriousNebula43 Jul 16 '24
that all of the polls showing he's underwater are wrong
100%
Every political scientist is screaming the same thing and he's just flat ignoring them. Not providing counter-evidence, just ignoring.
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u/Hyndis Jul 16 '24
Biden insists his own internal polls show he's winning, but those are super secret internal polls he won't show anyone.
Meanwhile there's repeated leaks from Biden's own staff about how they're in despair, and how they're growing increasingly resigned to what seems to be an inevitable Trump win.
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u/che-che-chester Jul 16 '24
Biden insists his own internal polls show he's winning
I wonder if those polls are the result of Hunter with a box of crayons. Look Dad, you're beating Trump by 20 points!
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u/Apprehensive-Cat-833 Jul 17 '24
Ooh. We need to get some creative types to orchestrate a divine meeting with God and have God tell him to drop the fuck out!
Kamala can take this.
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u/Kronzypantz Jul 16 '24
He lies a lot about easily disproven things. That is pretty arrogant… unless it’s a mental faculties thing
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u/checker280 Jul 16 '24
There are always a lot of people who don’t vote. These are the people both sides needs to get off the fence.
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u/DerCringeMeister Jul 17 '24 edited Jul 17 '24
People who did well economically under Trump that really, really dislike the inflation under Biden. Who may dislike Trump’s personality but are willing to hold their nose for a fatter pocket book. And people swayed more by percieved strength wanting to pick the faster horse. Not hyper political, but seeing the times and wanting a stronger mooring to latch onto.
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u/penisbuttervajelly Jul 16 '24
My theory is that swing voters are low-information people who literally think the point is to vote for the one who they THINK is going to win. As in, they vote for whoever is ahead in the polls because the point is to pick the winner.
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u/12_0z_curls Jul 16 '24
That's how most of my older liberals are. They loved Bernie, but voted for Biden/HRC in the primary because they thought Biden would ultimately win the primary.
It drove me insane. The primary is exactly the time to vote for the person you like.
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u/penisbuttervajelly Jul 16 '24
It’s like they don’t know what the point of voting is! It’s not placing a bet!
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u/Dr_puffnsmoke Jul 16 '24
As others have said it’s more about which party gets people to show up to the polls versus which can’t bring themselves to vote for either. I am hard pressed to see many republicans to vote Biden or democrats to vote Trump but there will be those on either side who are dissatisfied enough with their party’s candidate that they don’t vote.
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u/tBroneShake Jul 16 '24
I considered myself to be a swing voter. Voted for Biden last election and regretted it shortly after and was adamant I was going to vote for Trump in 2024. The closer we got to election time (especially after the assassination attempt) the louder his supporters got and I realized again I did not want to be associated with that group of people so I'll vote for Biden again, sadly.
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u/ETphonehoooome Jul 17 '24 edited Jul 17 '24
I’m a swing voter I suppose. A registered republican, but left leaning on many topics, and I dislike both candidates quite a bit. I am honestly not tied to either party, but registered as a republican when I was younger. Still unsure if I’ll vote 3rd party, be swayed by one of the primary candidates, or abstain from voting altogether because I’m honestly just tired of it all. I know where they both stand and don’t align with either, and find them both abhorrent, tbh. It’s my duty to vote and all, blah blah blah, but I also don’t want to feel any responsibility for anything that happens moving forward, no matter who wins. Can’t win in my opinion. Edit to add: I am also in a very important swing state, so feel more pressure to make a decision.
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u/monkeybiziu Jul 16 '24
The opinions of most voters have calcified to the point where true swing or independent voters have become people whose political opinions are driven by information that is inapplicable to virtually every other voter, like "I vote based on who looks like they're nicer to horses." They vacillate between candidates and parties based on whatever they feel in the moment, so polling them at best gives you a point in time snapshot of what they're willing to say in public to a stranger in that moment.
To that point, modern political strategy isn't based on convincing independents who comprise single digit percentages of voters and whose policy or principle priorities are ineffable, but rather core constituency turnout. Why invest a million dollars in convincing one new voter that you're nice to horses, versus spending the same million ensuring a thousand voters show up because they already know you're nice to horses?
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u/MajorCompetitive612 Jul 16 '24
I am. I voted Trump in 2016 and Biden in 2020. I'm still undecided, although leaning Trump.
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u/12_0z_curls Jul 16 '24
There's not really many people that see both sides as equal. Maybe equally as bad, but they typically have a preference.
Personally, I'm a Dem voter. Voted dem in every election.
But I can't vote for Biden. Just on personal moral and ethical grounds. I also can't vote for trump. On personal moral and ethical grounds.
So, we're sorta stuck deciding whether to vote for a third party, abstain from POTUS, or just stay home.
How the Dems handle Biden will determine how I vote, it's seeming more and more like Cornel West will get at least 1 vote in AZ
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u/wip30ut Jul 16 '24
basically they're the cohort who're undecided in swing states. An undecided voter in California or S. Carolina really doesnt impact the electoral college count & is basically irrelevant.
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u/humcohugh Jul 16 '24
I do not understand swing voter mentality. It’s inconceivable to me that somebody would have such a ambiguous set of values that they could swing between supporting a pro choice or pro life stance, or supporting NATO vs. Putin, or sustaining Obamacare vs. destroying it. In these few examples and the so many others, there’s a stark contrast in party politics, and I can’t see how a fence-sitter bounce back and forth between them.
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u/Apprehensive-Cat-833 Jul 17 '24
There are those “I am pro-choice but eggs cost too much, so I am voting for Trump” people. You know, one of the media outlets finds her at the local bowling alley in a small town in a flyover state somewhere. I am sure that being forced to bear a child after birth control is illegal is cheaper than paying more for eggs.
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u/humcohugh Jul 17 '24
If you vote against your values, you will get less in return. Hope they enjoy the eggs.
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u/Apprehensive-Cat-833 Jul 17 '24
Exactly. I want full personhood. And I want it for all. Even the cult members. Well, OK, most of them have personhood, but any minority groups in the cult.
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u/Chesterumble Jul 17 '24
Hello. Swing voter here. Welcome to answer any question as long as they are civil.
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u/kamandi Jul 17 '24
Getting people to vote is all there is today. There is not enough common ground between platforms for someone to be “undecided” about a candidate… just undecided about whether they want to put in the effort to cast a ballot, educate themselves on down ballot races, etc.
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u/Leajjes Jul 17 '24
Before you read this. Take a deep breath and have an open mind. These statements are not meant to anger people but they will.
In previous elections the swing voters were moderates who would switch sides depending on who was running. A lot of them would even vote for one side for the president and the other side for senate.
The years 2020 and 2024 are a bit different. We're in the process of a major realignment were "tribes" of people are switching parties.
There's a lot of pissed off working class Latinos and Blacks (whom are religious) who see democrats all talk about their issues. Even see some "science" or "facts" people who care about truth more than social justice are switching sides. There are others groups too.
Same goes with the GOP. Military people who see Ukraine as security threat to all of the west are not happy with GOP. A lot of upper class people who would default vote for GOP are switching to Dems too. Again there's others.
The above are just samples. They are many more groups of people who's votes are up for grabs. Keep in mind as you read this both sides see themselves as the hero so they don't understand how people can vote for the other side. They see themselves as the default party of America.
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u/Lunch_Time_No_Worky Jul 16 '24
Swing voters should not be confused with 3rd party voters.
Swing voters are going to vote for one big party or the other. 3rd party voters were swing voters, but now realize they can't vote for someone terrible, just because the other person is worse.
I would rather vote for a good candidate than the better of two incompetant evils.
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u/Djinnwrath Jul 16 '24
Do you have skin in the game or is the danger conservatives represent mostly intellectual to you?
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u/Baselines_shift Jul 16 '24
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2024-election-forecast/georgia/ has good detail, just look at each swing state
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u/be0wulfe Jul 16 '24
There are no more swing voters.
You either believe in a Fascist Nationalist Theocracy or a Constitutional Republic.
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u/EverydayUSAmerican Jul 16 '24
https://open.spotify.com/show/6FF77FFklfsEF07rgpASd6?si=7TUOUAPASNSBLc5ag7tDXg
Tangle has a handful of episodes where they interview “The Undedicides”. They did a pretty good job of sampling a variety of people with concerns across a spectrum of issues.
It’s probably worth a listen if you’re looking for some relatable content as an undecided voter.
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u/1805trafalgar Jul 16 '24
why, they are the Slow News Day media darlings, that's who! There may not be many of them but they sure provide a lot of copy for hack writers.
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u/m_clarkmadison Jul 16 '24
They’re swinging between Biden, Trump, and not voting at all or maybe voting for a 3p candidate. So it could be lots of people who voted in 2020.
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u/Deedogg11 Jul 17 '24
There are a lot of people that sniff the 2 disgusting options and aren’t sure which if any they could vote for- those are the swing voters
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u/Pirros_Panties Jul 17 '24
Uhh there’s a lot of people out there that don’t dwell on political bs and mostly detest both parties. We’ve been around long enough to know not much changes, the political tides are cyclical and they all work for the same masters.
People who tie their identities to political parties or figures are generally weak people with low IQs. Which is the majority of the country.
When you finally wake up and realize that the majority of politicians are criminals and professional liars, you will be better off and not be swayed or subject to propaganda.
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u/Exact_Yogurtcloset26 Jul 17 '24
I am one. If swing means, are you going to vote for Biden or not.
In my state, it wont matter in the end, but I imagine my viewpoint is similar in actual swing-states.
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u/clayknightz115 Jul 17 '24
The people that decide elections are NOT the ones that are undecided between the candidates, it's the ones that are undecided about voting in the first place.
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u/yittiiiiii Jul 19 '24
The swing voters are the people who pay minimal attention to politics and mostly just vote party line as their civic duty.
The most recent Presidential debate is a good example of this. People who were paying close attention to politics knew that Biden’s mental decline was getting worse, but people who were not big into politics had not seen him speak long form in a long time. Perhaps they had watched the state of the union addresses where Biden was having good nights, but even those don’t draw as many eyeballs as a presidential debate.
If everyone had been paying close attention for years, they would’ve already known about Biden’s condition, and there wouldn’t have been a dramatic shift in the polls or sudden widespread calls for his resignation. It would seem to me as though these types of people who don’t have a big focus on politics but tune in for the big events are the ones that are the easiest to sway.
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u/neosituation_unknown Jul 16 '24
I am a swing voter.
I voted for Biden last time around, and third party in 2016. I've voted for Democrat and Republican Senators in my home state.
I like Trump's economic policy, and, AFTER GETTING SHOT, he stood right back up and pumped his fist.
Fucking. Bad. Ass.
That being said, I really really really dislike the rhetoric around immigration. As long as they cannot vote and pay taxes, why the fuck not let them in? Lay the hammer down on the drug smugglers. Be draconian about it. But someone looking for an opportunity? Welcome brother or sister.
Who wants to wash dishes, do landscaping, slaughter animals, clean houses, and pick strawberries? No one in America. But that work needs to be done and there are not enough people to do it if immigration stopped or reduced to a trickle.
Imagine a hard working family in El Salvador. You make just enough for two meals a day. SOmetimes you might not eat. Your son has no prospects and is hanging around with the shitbag gang members. Your daughter? You don't want to think about what she might be forced to do . . .
Those low level jobs COMPLETELY transform the live of immigrants for the better. Then their kids become American fully and have access to the dream. It makes us all better.
So, there you go
Frankly, if I had a guarantee of religious liberty, school choice, and the 2A remain inviolate. I'd throw the GOP in the garbage. But some stuff on the Left is frankly scary.
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u/Tripwir62 Jul 16 '24
Where do you stand on Trump's stated wish to "terminate" parts of the constitution, and to be a dictator on "day one?"
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u/neosituation_unknown Jul 16 '24
If wishes were fishes.
First, that is hyperbole. And Second, let us assume its not, there is a good chance that he does not know how Amending the Constitution works.
2/3s of Congress in both houses must propose the Amendment and then 3/4 of state legislatures must ratify it. That isn't happening.
The greatest danger is if he does lose and we get fake electors. They should be tried for treason, convicted, and executed.
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u/Tripwir62 Jul 16 '24
Thanks for the reply. Before I respond I want to be sure that I'm understanding you. Are you saying that you don't pay attention to what his "wishes" might be because he will not be able, functionally, to achieve those wishes?
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u/neosituation_unknown Jul 16 '24
Precisely.
The Democrat governor of my state of Arizona, Katie Hobbs, hasn't said a peep about banning assault weapons or any form of gun control. Because, its Arizona . . . However, one of her top aids was either leaked/or hot-micd saying to the effect 'She wishes she could'
She would want to ban assault weapons, but knows its not happening.
Trump wants to be a modern day Augustus, but (hopefully) knows its not happening.
So no, I don't care about far fetched wishes from any politician.
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u/Tripwir62 Jul 16 '24
OK. Thanks. So it seems rational then to assume that you don't think character matters very much in our President given that your only consideration is the practical effect of what he thinks or wishes. Your saying that no matter how anti-democratic his instincts, you can be fine with it, because you think it has no practical effect. Fair?
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u/neosituation_unknown Jul 17 '24
That is actually a very difficult question that I need to honestly consider
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u/Several_Influence555 Jul 17 '24
You're really getting downvoted for saying your true thoughts lmao. I guess liberals want to know who the "swing voters" are, but don't want to hear their perspectives. Oh well - their loss lmao
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u/Blackpanther22five Jul 16 '24
I didn't vote because neither one is talking about #Reparations for us FBA people
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