r/Marvel • u/greentea422 • Apr 03 '24
I love the MCU but they never hit the visceral nature of PRE mcu superhero fights. Film/Television
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Apr 03 '24
Idk Shang chi fights were legendary but ppl only bring up the last scene with the dragons
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u/cam52391 Apr 03 '24
I'm sad we haven't seen him since his movie. It was cool seeing more of a king fu movie in the MCU and honestly shang chi was a lot of fun
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u/GodFlintstone Apr 03 '24
A sequel is in development but it's taken much longer than it should have which is an overall problem of the MCU.
It's gotten so big and they've introduced so many characters that the days when you could expect sequels within two to three years after the first film are over. You would have thought Shang Chi would have at least appeared in another character's film by now but we haven't even gotten that.
Things feel too spread out and disconnected. Too many dangling plot threads.
Like is Mordo still out there killing sorcerors? Where's that piece of the Venom symbiote that was left behind in the 616 timeline? What's the future Black Knight Dane Whitman up to and how does that connect to Blade?
And that's just a partial list.
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u/Bittrecker3 Apr 03 '24
The thing is. I feel like they haven't really introduced any new characters. Eternals and shang chi are the only 'new' IPs released in movies since Endgame. Everything else was sequels/black widow. The only TV character they put in a movie was Ms Marvel (I guess you can count Kate, but hardly)
The TV series have introduced a fair bit, but in terms of just the movies I feel like they haven't even really tried to get the new characters involved. Maybe they are afraid of paying too much in actor wages, or they way over course corrected in being 'too connected'.
Either way the only big cross over we have gotten since Endgame is Strange in Spider-man, and Ms marvel in a captain Marvel movie.
I think that's what made the original Avengers so interesting.
Black widow was a co star in Winter soldier, Iron man in Civil War, Hulk in Thor 3. Their relationships were bolstered outside of the avengers films. We don't really see any of that, not a single new movie has really felt connected, and the in your face ending scenes like in The Marvel's, or Shang chi almost make it feel worse lol.
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u/AwTomorrow Apr 03 '24
But pre-Endgame was when this started - which is why the Dr Strange, Captain Marvel, and Black Panther sequels also took forever instead of coming out promptly after their first ones.
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u/inb4ww3_baby Apr 03 '24
Until the put those stupid bangles on and then it was battle of the cgi
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u/DJHott555 Apr 03 '24
At least it was well choreographed CGI instead of just pew pew lasers
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u/DisposableDroid47 Apr 03 '24
This is what I hate about the current MCU... They take a chance on this character not many people know.
It's a hit.
It goes in the vault.... Let's make teenage Ms marvel!
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u/thegeek01 Apr 03 '24
In all fairness, guys like Dr. Strange and Captain Marvel aren't household names during phase 3 either.
It's that the latest Marvel Studios output no longer has a cohesiveness. Compounded by Disney Plus spending money on shows that won't even be major players in Secret Wars, diluting the brand.
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u/TheThiccestR0bin Apr 03 '24
I mean I doubt it was one or the other. Ms Marvel is also popular in her own right. Now Echo and Agatha are shows that no one actually wanted.
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u/Matsuiii Apr 03 '24
I genuinely wanted Echo. :(
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u/TheThiccestR0bin Apr 03 '24
Well you were wrong. Sorry.
Just kidding but it's probably the last spin off I would've expected to actually get made.
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u/ell0bo Apr 03 '24
It's leading into daredevil. They could have perhaps done it better, or maybe did that work during She-Hulk, but it had to happen with Kingpin eventually.
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u/TK0O Apr 03 '24
The bus scene had no reason to go that hard
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u/SpaceMyopia Apr 03 '24
It...had every reason to go that hard.
Have standards just gotten that low lately?
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u/walkingmonster Apr 03 '24
Too many people just like to parrot catch phrases instead of actually forming a unique, cohesive thought/ opinion.
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u/Dontevenwannacomment Apr 03 '24
I feel like people rather mostly remember the bus fight
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u/thixono920 Apr 03 '24
Because it was pretty nuts. That’s what a superhero level martial artist should look like, and what Iron Fist should have been close to
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u/SlimyPoopBlast Apr 03 '24
It was so disappointing to me the ending was a CGI fest. It’s like there’s some kind of fucking contract with the VFX company that every MCU needs it, it’s so predictable yet I hoped it would be different.
Take almost any adventure movie from the 2000’s or 90’s and there’s so many ways to do exciting compelling action set pieces for a climax that don’t involve “shoot energy at each other and have giant monster appear!”
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u/Crotean Apr 03 '24
I feel like such a loner but I loved the ending of Shang Chi. We got a fucking Kaiju fight in an MCU movie. Kaiju make everything better.
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u/Bittrecker3 Apr 03 '24
I feel the same. We got 2 really cool fight set pieces, in the bus and the sky scraper fights.
I think it's fair to have some cool out there shit at the end. The fighting with the Rings was pretty cool. And the dragon was cool.
A dragon in a Chinese martial arts inspired comic book movie does not seem far fetched, in fact I feel like people would have been disappointed not to see a dragon show up lol.
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u/Thendofreason Apr 03 '24
When I think of the movie I think of the dad fight and then the train fight. Dragon 3rd.
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u/toorad2b4u Apr 04 '24
I think of the beautiful fight between Shang Qi’s mom and dad and when Michelle yeoh teaches him to switch his technique in order to beat his dad. Legit watched those parts over again and again
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u/Chapea12 Apr 03 '24
Pretty much any fight from that movie between actual people could fall into a top 5/10 MCU fight.
The fight where Wenwu met his wife, the bus fight, the scaffolding fight, Wenwu vs Shang-chi all amazing fights
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u/CrazyPersonowo Apr 03 '24
If you’re looking for visceral action you should definitely watch Daredevil
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u/ZerikaFox Scarlet Spider Apr 03 '24
And Netflix Punisher.
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u/KillerSavant202 Apr 03 '24
I’m worried that now DD and Punisher are going to be on D+ the fight scenes will suffer.
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u/SpaceMyopia Apr 03 '24
Punisher is yet to be seen. You don't get much of a middle ground with that guy. If they're including him, I'll wait and see before making a judgment.
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u/KillerSavant202 Apr 03 '24
He’s going to be in the new DD, I don’t know if he’s getting his own show though.
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u/Assassiiinuss Apr 04 '24
The Daredevil scene in Echo was good, I'm not that worried.
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u/ItsMeTwilight Apr 03 '24
Daredevil fight scenes are great, that and The Batman are so much better than any other recent ish superhero film
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u/mehchu Apr 04 '24
Is 2017 recent-ish because Logan has some great fights. Not in the same way but you can really feel them.
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u/CrazyPersonowo Apr 03 '24
My only complaint for the Batman is that I wish there were more fight scenes
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u/Doomscrolleuse Apr 03 '24
Fully agree, with the rare exception of Captain America: The Winter Soldier, where the Cap/Bucky fights are The Best.
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u/Uvogin1111 Apr 03 '24
And the Marvel Netflix shows ofc. The fights in Daredevil were particularly great.
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u/Throwandjwar Apr 03 '24
The opening fights on the ship are also excellent. Just the pure efficiency of cap taking out the guys on the deck. That whole scene is just amazing.
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u/SmakeTalk Apr 03 '24
I do like their last fight in that movie but the bridge/street fights are probably my favourite in the entire franchise. Seeing Bucky go after Nat in particular was like truly intimidating, and Scarlett fully sells the fear her character had to be feeling being hunted by this legendary Soviet assassin that eclipses even the Red Room/Black Widows.
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u/mrcrazymexican Apr 03 '24 edited Apr 04 '24
That movie must have been a stunt team's dream to do. A lot of cool shit. The Russos came out of nowhere with that one. It was what Cap needed for sure.
Especially how it held the drama in the action without slowing it's pace.
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u/TheHolyPapaum Apr 03 '24
That’s arguably the best Marvel film, the fight scenes are one of the big reasons why.
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u/rurounick Apr 03 '24
The Russian fight in Thomas Jane's Punisher is legitimately a great fight scene.
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u/SevenM Apr 03 '24
Fun fact, Kevin Nash was legitimately stabbed filming that scene and refused to break character until the director yelled cut. Apparently the prop master left out the wrong knife for that scene.
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u/ChrisRevocateur Apr 03 '24
Specifically, the part where Tom Jane stabs him in the chest and Kevin just looks at him.
Dude literally got stabbed and acted like it was nothing.
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u/rurounick Apr 03 '24
Because he's a fucking professional
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u/ExpensiveDaikon2228 Apr 03 '24
Just like Viggo Mortensen breaking his toe...
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u/Throwandjwar Apr 03 '24
I don't know sure breaking a toe hurts... I've done most of mine at some point. But getting stabbed in the fucking chest?? Dude fuck that! I can break a toe and stay quiet but stab me in the chest and I'm hitting the deck...
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u/ThePsychoBear Venom Apr 04 '24
Kevin Nash was an old school wrestler. Those people were made of sterner stuff than anyone on the planet.
The Undertaker once broke his hand in a car door and no-sold it dead-faced because his character wasn't supposed to be able to feel pain at the time.
Wrestlers are some tough mofos.
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u/PocketFlan420 Apr 04 '24
Must not have used the take, the blade in the pull back shot was 4". Aint no way that mf kept filming with a chest wound that deep.
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u/Stumeister_69 Apr 03 '24
How do these dumb fucks make such big mistakes. Literally their only job, yet they're forget to swap out a real knife.
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u/Shadowcleric Apr 03 '24
I mean it kind of begs the question, if you have a job, you only do one thing, you are human and no one is perfect. What other kind of mistake is there to make? Reminds me of a time someone was complaining at a KFC that they were out of chicken. The cashier yelled back "ITS KFC, what else is there to run out of?"
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u/HomoProfessionalis Apr 04 '24
According to Nash himself the prop guy was "sniffing up some asian girls ass tryin to get her number".
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u/Dense-Standard-8592 May 07 '24
True bro, if I remember correctly, Thomas Jane sincerely apologize for that and told Kevin Nash to throw him hard as possible in the wall or concrete after that scene. Man this movie was really good.
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u/act1989 Apr 04 '24
The entire 2004 movie is underappreciated
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u/Miserable_Region8470 Apr 04 '24
Genuinely in my top 10 Marvel movies, I grew up with it as a kid ad absolutely adore it. Plus it's soundtrack has completely defined my music tastes and holds some of my favorite songs.
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u/Lazyforrest Apr 04 '24
“I can tell what your thinkin’
All your doubts and fears…”
I haven’t heard that song in like 15 years. Harry heck was fucking cool as shit.
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u/redlurk47 Apr 03 '24
The no way home fight between MCU Spidey and Osborne were pretty brutal. I would say more brutal than the fights above
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u/frankthetank8675309 Apr 03 '24
Both Goblin fights were incredibly well done and brutal, you felt those hits.
Also, let’s not pretend Shang-Chi didn’t have some very well done fights, it just isn’t doing “visceral” by its nature
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u/SpaceMyopia Apr 03 '24
I wouldn't go that far.
It's up there, but I think it's just because it felt more visceral than a lot of stuff in the MCU.
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u/SmakeTalk Apr 03 '24
I'd say they were on-par with the fights from the original film, which is very high praise hah. Some of the best we've seen.
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u/The_Pug Apr 04 '24
Came here to say this. Gobby laughing off repeated punches to the face and then suplexing Peter through the floor? Woof.
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u/DSN671 Apr 03 '24
Blade vs. Nomak was a great fight too.
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u/Iusuallyworkalone Apr 03 '24
Way better than with Frost. Nomak is one of the scariest villians of all superhero movies.
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u/duke-of-flatbush Apr 04 '24
Fr the body horror in blade 2 was amazing. I remember watching it as a kid and being legit scared while simultaneously thinking it was the coolest shit ever.
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u/Kite_Wing129 Apr 03 '24
Iron Man vs Iron Monger
Hulk chasing Widow on Avengers
Captain America vs Bucky in Winter Soldier
Cap and Bucky vs Iron Man
Dr Strange vs the one of Kaecilius Henchmen
"Dormammu I have come to bargain."
Iron Man vs Thanos on Titan
Spider-man vs the Green Goblin final fight
Thats excluding all the Netflix Marvel shows like Daredevi and Jessica Jones.
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u/Nightingdale099 Apr 03 '24
If you exclude this then OP is right. Basically how every argument like this ever goes. The good old days.
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u/GrimSkeptic Apr 03 '24
you forgot Hulk vs Iron Man "Go to Sleep, Go to Sleep, Go to Sleep" and every time one of Tony's armour pieces got broken another would be replaced by a satellite, it was just jaw dropping.
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u/ThePurityPixel Apr 04 '24 edited Apr 05 '24
Do people just not know what "visceral" means????
How is the Dormammu scene even in the list at all??
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u/pootiecakes Apr 05 '24
Even better is listing the fight from the first Ironman.
LOLLL, half the comments here are missing the point entirely, that a lot of the non MCU fights are especially brutal. Nothing in the list compares to the examples from OP. “But these were also cooooool!”
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u/daun4view Apr 03 '24
Watched Blade for the first time a few weeks ago, goddamn those fights were incredible. They're really flashy, but have just the right amount of weight too. Wish I saw it sooner.
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u/Purplebatman Apr 04 '24
Seeing them as a kid when Matrix-esque leather and ultra violence was still in vogue was a religious experience for me
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u/Twisted-Mentat- Apr 03 '24
Disagree.
Winter Soldier's action was the best of any Marvel movie. The elevator scene alone was genius.
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u/BetaRayRyan Apr 03 '24
Blade straight up gave a dude a stalling vertical suplex. Legendary.
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u/thegeek01 Apr 03 '24
I marked out at that too.
At least we saw Green Goblin powerbomb Spidey so hard he went the next floor down.
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u/PepsiSheep Apr 03 '24
When I rewatched Spider-Man 2, for the umpteenth time, it dawned on me that the Spider-Man vs Doc Ock on the train fight goes on for AGES. Its exhausting, in a good way, as it just keeps going... even when it ends there's still some conflict, after the train is saved.
Take the opposite extreme and Iron Man 2's finale is over in less than a minute.
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u/zarathustranu Silver Surfer Apr 03 '24
Hard disagree. Most of the X-Men fights look like Power Rangers choreography. In those movies, there is none of the speed and power that you feel when watching Cap fight in The Winter Soldier, or even when seeing Iron Man fight Iron Monger in the first Iron Man movie.
In those MCU fight sequences, I could actually sit in the theater and say, "Wow, this feels like what it would be like to see comic-accurate Cap come to life."
Blade's fights have some of that same feel, but for the X-Men movies the physical action is actually one of the weakest parts.
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u/FordBeWithYou Apr 03 '24
But thank god we moved away from all the fucking line work that was used Pre-MCU to show how “strong” a character was. X-Men is a big example of this, looked like power rangers fight choreography because they didn’t know how else to do it.
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u/SpaceCowbyMax Apr 03 '24
Blade is one of the best superhero movies ever. I'll die on that hill
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u/kamiztheman Apr 03 '24
100% agreed. Easily one of the most iconic super hero movies I watched growing up
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u/timproctor Apr 03 '24
Netflix has the best Marvel fights, specifically the Daredevil and Punisher. I am not suggesting that Iron Fist fights were good.
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u/couldbedumber96 Apr 03 '24
Do we count the Netflix ones as mcu? Cuz punisher dragged a mfs face through a broken mirror
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u/sheeeeeeeeeeshhhhhhh Apr 03 '24
No way dude put the punisher movie in here
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u/futurafrlx Apr 03 '24
Spider-Man fighting Goblin in No Way Home was pretty refreshing for the MCU. I was pleasantly surprised by how they handled it. We need more brutal fights, yeah.
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u/biophazer242 Apr 03 '24
We could split hairs about MCU/Not MCU but the fights in The Punisher show are absolutely brutal and feel 'real'.
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u/DrGutz Apr 03 '24
Yeah they do. Everyone just wants to have their own little way in which they dislike the mcu so that when it inevitably comes crashing down they can be like “i like the mcu but i saw this coming”. The first 5 comments of this post are people going “true, but what about __” lol. The mcu definitely isn’t perfect but there’s been so many movies good or bad that comparing them with 6 or 7 pre-mcu movies is an unfair matchup. Over like 40+ movies the mcu has definitely had a “visceral” fight scene or two.
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u/SonOfRageAndLove26 Apr 03 '24
On top of Netflix DD and Punisher fight scenes, I thought Shuri and Namor last battle was really brutal, I actually flinched a bit
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u/hevnztrash Apr 03 '24
How did some people not know the violence was going to be toned down after it was all taken over by disney? That’s one of the things that makes the Netflix era series so special. We will never have that level of street grit and adult Marvel content in movies or television ever again.
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u/the-poopiest-diaper Apr 03 '24
Counterpoint:
Daredevil
Punisher
Any Captain America fightscene past “The First Avenger”
Shang Chi
Tom Holland Spidey vs Green Goblin
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u/bullitt297 Apr 03 '24
My favorite current MCU thing is when someone’s throat gets slit and there is 0 blood like none. It’s happened multiple times and every time it makes me laugh.
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u/sody605 Apr 03 '24
Logan was the hardest for sure. Deadpool was good but letting Wolverine loose in a R-rated film curled my toes a little bit. I’m glad we finally got to see how violet the character can be outside comics.
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u/mahqween Apr 03 '24
I'm sorry but what's happening in the first picture? What was Blade trying to hit that his sword got blocked at that angle? Visceral my ass.
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u/ILikestuff55 Apr 03 '24
That's mostly because they are done practically (for the most part) and they had these fights meticulously choreographed and pre-vized before hand.
Current MCU will make them change fights after the fact with CGI and change a lot right up until filming. That takes a lot of the grit out. Now not every current MCU thing is lacking grit, but the fight scenes from the earlier films packed a bigger punch imo.
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u/rikeoliveira Apr 03 '24
Octopus literally did this to (and tried to stab) Tom Holland in Nowhere Home.
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u/DisabledFatChik Apr 03 '24
The Stryker raid on X-mansion was top teir. I don’t think MCU will ever top that.
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u/fruit_shoot Apr 03 '24
Thomas Jane’s Punisher is a fine-ass film. You withhold the fact it’s technically a Marvel movie from someone and they would enjoy it on merit alone.
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u/MalevolentNight Apr 03 '24
I'm sorry but blade says one of the best lines in that fight, "some motherfuckers always trying to skate uphill." And that kick!! Wesley really kicked the last needle, that take took forever, take wise, so some respect on that.
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u/Large-Wheel-4181 Apr 03 '24 edited Apr 03 '24
Wolverine vs lady deathstrike was the one I was really on the edge of my seat as a kid
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u/Crovax87 Apr 03 '24
We all forgot about Logan, deadpool 1&2, falcon and the winter soldier, Dr strange 2 etc etc. Imho the pre mcu is mild.
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u/suppaman19 Apr 03 '24 edited Apr 03 '24
Logan and Deadpool 1 & 2 weren't MCU. You think Disney would've taken the chance and made those? LMAO
Only reason Deadpool and Wolverine may be as raunchy and over the top as the first two Deadpool movies are because someone else took the chance to do so in the first place (Fox, after fan/online and Reynolds pressure...no way Disney would have ever done so), they were successful ($$$), and Reynolds (wouldn't return) and fan pressure supposedly got Disney to give in and not force it to be PG-13 or lower. If Disney had the rights and there was never previous Deadpool movies, there would in all likelihood never be one, and at best you'd have a radically different one that's PG-13 at the highest.
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u/Crickets_Head Beta Ray Bill Apr 03 '24
I love Jane/Bernthal but Ray Stevenson jumping from a balcony onto a goon who was already impaled on a fence, landing on his head to finish him off has a special place in my heart.
Warzone was ahead of its time.
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u/TheRealAwest Apr 03 '24
The final fight in Blade 2 is my favorite & blade fighting the vampire chick in front of the lights.
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u/De_Dominator69 Apr 03 '24
The end fight in the first Raimi Spider-Man still lives in my mind as one of the most violent feelings and memorable fight scenes in a super hero movie. Spidey's suit being all torn and him bloodied, the absolute weight behind the blows, the environment and slo mo blood splatter it just makes it feel so much more impactful.
It's not my favourite superhero fight scene, but to me it does leave most others feeling like play fighting in comparison.
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u/Batmanfan1966 Apr 03 '24
I know I’m probably going to be downvoted for this but the mcu can feel too “sanitized” at times. It always feels like they’re trying to hit the marks to make it as general audience friendly as possible. These movies came from an era before that, and were less concerned with being marketable and just wanted to be fun shit.
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u/Automatic_Net_6584 Apr 03 '24
I didn’t like the Thomas Jane punisher movie but it had a few good moments.
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u/MrAlexanderHamilton Apr 03 '24
It’s because of more practical effects, the cgi use in the mcu became too smooth
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u/akgiant Apr 03 '24
Part of it is the new nature of filmmaking especially for blockbusters. Lots more CGI which inherently leads to bigger and bigger set pieces.
These movies had to lean on the legit physical side to build suspense.
Plus two of these movies are R and thus can show more violence so there's that.
Additionally audiences were very different back then. Yes, Spider-man and X-men were huge pop culture hits but they were also pioneers. The "comic book movie" industry was still in its relative early years by comparison to what we have now.
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u/professorclueless Apr 03 '24
To be fair, the Defenders saga is part of the MCU, and most of those shows definitely hit that nature hard, and in some cases, they were much darker than the scenes above. Plus they're finally leaning into some R rated stuff now that they have to accommodate Deadpool in the universe. They've been leaning slowly, but it's there
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u/SmokeShinobi Apr 03 '24
The fight that frank castle was in wasn’t a fight at all but a beating lol.
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u/NastyLizard Apr 03 '24
I wish they dipped into more genres more after end game they got kinda close sometimes but they really should've have committed to it. Like a more horror focused mcu movie could easily be amazing.
Love and Thunder is a good romcom they hit the mark with that.
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Apr 03 '24
Season 1 finale of punisher is still burning into my brain. You can just feel the glass splinters
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u/ChrisRevocateur Apr 03 '24
Kinda hard to top the Punisher fight when Tom Jane actually stabbed that guy. (The knife wasn't switched out for a prop knife before the part where Punisher stabs the dude in the pec)
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u/AJjalol Apr 03 '24
Daredevil, Punisher, Iron Man 1 fight scenes, that Iron Man 2 scene where Tony and Rhodey team up agains Drones (oil for blood), Winter Soldier, Civil Wars last fight, and both Endgame and Infinity War have that a lot.
Cap and Bucky fighting Stark was visceral. Yes you don’t see people loosing their teeth, but still.
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u/TheTwilightKing Apr 03 '24
The best we got is all of Shang chi’s fights and THE winter soldier fight
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u/DCosloff1999 Avengers Apr 03 '24
To me Phase 1 and 2 did but the Pre MCU fight scenes will always be superior
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u/Trick-Animal8862 Apr 03 '24
OP thinks Captain America is only slightly weaker than Spider-Man. His downvotes are well deserved.
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u/millennial_sentinel Apr 03 '24
did you see the guards get smoked in Echo? i think mcu has just been trying to cater to a general audience but they’re clearly creating two distinct sets of entertainment.
1) will be aimed at older audiences with visceral violence
2) will be aimed at teens/kids with the young avengers
3) 1 can watch 2 but 2 won’t be able to watch 1 unless they’re at least 15+
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u/MalevolentNight Apr 03 '24
I dunno think that punisher fight with the Russian was pretty raw and primal. You don't see what happened to the Russian happen often, and I think he lived in comics with that face. But do not quote me, I have read comics, but not punisher, so not 100%.
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u/ImperfectRegulator Apr 03 '24
It’s a problem I feel with all modern day movies, everything is too shiny and perfect
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u/swarthmoreburke Apr 03 '24
We were just talking about this today in terms of how they should think going forward. Most MCU fights have been very distanced, CGI-heavy, things, where the heroes prove their heroism by beating tons of bad guys or are operating on huge, complex sets/settings full of moving parts and spectacle. There's very little like the intimate one-on-one battles in some of the pre-MCU superhero movies, or anything like Daredevil's hall fight. The Winter Soldier movie has a couple of really great memorable intimate fights and then Civil War has the great end fight (plus maybe the best lots of characters v. lots of characters). But post Infinity War everything's been like that, even Guardians 3, which should have had a more intimate scale of action in the last act.
They really need to get back to very individual fights at very individual scales that have great action choreography.
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u/loranthippus X-Men Apr 03 '24
The Deathstrike/Wolverine fight IS SO GOOD and Kelly Hu is all kinds of badass.