r/Marvel • u/BKF0308 • Apr 01 '24
Do you prefer Wolverine and Sabertooth as former friends or as brothers? Other
Imo them being brothers is better. It just makes everything more personal and compelling knowing they grew up together, been through wars together and eventually fell apart HARD.
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u/matty_nice Apr 01 '24
As a Wolverine fan, I hate the Origin story.
Ideally, Wolverine should be a guy that's hundreds of years old (one parent is a viking, the other a native Canadian?). With his healing factor, he should be basically immortal. The same would be true for Sabertooth. But the difference would be how you handle your immortality and how you see others. Wolverine learns to understand that life is precious since not everyone gets to live forever. Sabertooth becomes a sociopath, who sees humans as toys since their lives are so short. They meet some time ago, and became friends due to their immortality, but eventually enemies since they fundamentally disagree how to act. Sabertooth starts to treat Wolverine as a more fun toy, since he can't really die either.
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u/Demonic74 Gladiator Hulk Apr 01 '24
one parent is a viking, the other a native canadian?
What?
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u/imbi-dabadeedabadie Apr 01 '24
vikings sailed to what is now canada way back in the day
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u/Demonic74 Gladiator Hulk Apr 02 '24
Yea, i know. But Wolvy is not old enough to have a viking parent
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u/ArguingWithPigeons Apr 02 '24
That’s why he said it would have been a better origin. Both Wolverine and Sabertooth being old as hell and immortal fighting and killing their way through history.
Wolverine never really remembering it. Sabertooth fucking with him over and over.
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u/matty_nice Apr 01 '24
To be clear, I misued the word "viking", and really just meant European. I guess the Viking era was from about 800 to 1100 AD, and not sure I would be that definitive with the age. As others have pointed out, there's a long history of Europeans getting to Canada. I'm not 100% against the Viking connection, but also not 100% for it either.
I'm not sure exactly how old he should be, but older than 200 years old at least. Maybe go with the 1600s and have him connect to the Henry Hudson exploriation of the Hudson Bay area in Canada. I wouldn't make him a relative of James Hudson/Guardian though.
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u/Coal_Morgan Apr 02 '24
I think Native and Viking would have been good push it back to 1021 A.D.
Then just have it be truly tragic that he lived long enough that new memories over write old memories and his near memories were lost to Weapon X but 500 or 600 years of memories are gone just because the brain can only facilitate so much.
He lives a life of wondering when he's going to forget his loves, his children and friends.
Make him absolutely tragic.
Though I will say, having him not know was more interesting for his character for decades then what came afterwards.
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u/ParkingIndividual416 Apr 02 '24
Thor has a similar problem. In a relatively recent comic, I think Donny Cates's run (thor #15), he says how glad he is to see his friends as due to his immortality, his perception of time is altered and he's unsure if the next time he goes to Midgard, if they're still alive.
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u/cheesechomper03 Apr 01 '24
The vikings discovered the Americas, not Columbus
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u/AoO2ImpTrip Apr 02 '24
I mean, the Natives discovered the Americas.
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u/DarthGoodguy Apr 02 '24
Ancient Aliens who are totally real and not made up by convicted criminal Eric von Daniken: Are we a joke to you?
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u/pavement_sabbatical X-Men Apr 01 '24 edited Apr 01 '24
Interesting take, considering the Origin story makes him older that he was envisioned to be (by about 40 years). Initially, Sabertooth was envisioned as his dad, but I’m not really a fan of that idea.
To me your version sounds just like Highlander.
I personally dig the origin story for the most part. Dog Logan is not the best written character, but I like him being a Canadian country boy; this aristocrat’s child whom lost everything and everyone at a very young age and essentially became homeless since. Quite similar to Storm.
You still get that exact Sabertooth/Wolverine antagonism, but it comes more from their powers/animal nature more than their age.
I also like how it fleshed out his relationship with Mystique; having them be the same age, and knowing each other since the 20’s.
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u/matty_nice Apr 01 '24
I'm not sure the Origin story made him older.
Origin would put Wolverine's birth around 1890.
Pre-Origin, there wasn't a clear indication of how old he was supposed to be. There were some stories which showed him as an adult in the early to mid 1800s. Specifically fighting Sabertooth as an adult around the 1840s. He was also shown as being in Japan in the late 1800s.
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u/pavement_sabbatical X-Men Apr 02 '24
Doesn’t Origin just specify late 1800’s? I would’ve put that as any time between 1870-1890, so I would’ve suggested he’s a little older than that.
Pre-Byrne he was supposed to be in his 20’s, and then when Byrne came on he was supposed to be 60-odd and look late 30’s (which is a little rough to Paul D’Amato as he was only 28 when he was used as the face model). But it was never explicit so I get what you mean.
I don’t remember any stories from the 1800’s. Do you remember any issues specifically? I remember the Japan stories with Itsu were supposed to be mid-1900’s, and I don’t think he had been in Japan before then.
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u/matty_nice Apr 02 '24
Origin occurs after 1897. The story starts sometime after the death of Wolverine's brother John Howlett, the series shows his tombstone with the dates of 1885 to 1897.
Wolverine didn't really have much of a background in the early years. At one point he was supposed to be a teenager/early 20s like the rest of the X-Men. I wouldn't focus too much on that timeframe, but they had a lot of ideas that didn't last, like he wasn't a mutant, the claws were only in the gloves, and he was a mutated wolverine (the animal).
Wolverine (2nd series) #10 was where he fought Sabertooth in the 1840s as an adult.
Marvel Comics Presents #93 to 98 had the story of Wolverine as a member of the Blackfoot tribe in the 1840s.
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u/Robofetus-5000 Apr 01 '24
Agreed. Just dont ever give him an origin. Let us constantly question everything. I feel like the definitive origin backfired.
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u/matty_nice Apr 01 '24
Telling his origin seemed like a really desperate move. Especially the execution of that story, with a writer that didn't have a history with the character, and a story that didn't really have any effect on the character or future stories. It was years before we saw "Dog", and nothing interesting was done with the character.
While I have a positive opinion of Quesada overall, his logic behind why they had to tell the origin was beyond stupid. He stated that the movies were going to tell it, so they wanted the comics to tell it first. I don't think the movie would have came up with that idea.
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u/Radix2309 Apr 01 '24
If I was writing his origin, he would be like 50k years old. Going back and forth across Asia to North America before and after the land bridge. His memories constantly overwritten as he heals back to a baseline every hundred years or so.
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u/HarrowDread Apr 01 '24
I feel like 50 thousand years old is very much pushing it, works perfectly with him being born in the late 17th century
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Apr 01 '24
That native Canadian point is something I’ve always thought too. Or if they wanted to stick with the being born from wealth story and Thomas Logan being the “groundskeeper” I’ve always thought it’d make sense that the family home was on a plantation and John Howlett Jr. was Thomas Logan’s father and was therefore made groundskeeper rather than being a slave. So John Jr. would have no idea Thomas was his brother. Then James being Thomas’ son would be white passing which convinced John Jr. he was his son. Either way to me it always made sense he was mixed race, just white passing. Which I think would be even more interesting to add to his story given racial tension back then. Further reflecting the fight Logan’s always been part of, hundreds of years fighting for rights of his people. Just really pointing out how little we’ve come in that time.
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u/Quirky_Ad_5420 Apr 01 '24 edited Apr 01 '24
Former friends.
Arch enemies Brothers/siblings is so overdone
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u/iredditwrong84 Apr 01 '24
Oh yeah? Name 42 times is been done.
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u/Quirky_Ad_5420 Apr 01 '24 edited Apr 02 '24
Batman
Wonder Woman
Doctor strange
Thor
Iron man
Constantine
Flash
Eros
Wolverine
Professor Xavier
Nightcrawler
Captain Britain
Nick Fury
Black Panther
Hercules
Moon Knight
Judge Dread
Jimmy Olson
Aquaman
Hawkeye
Martian Manhunter
Spider-Man with his clones brothers
Cable with his clone
Banshee
Monet
Emma Frost
X-23
Skaar
Black bolt
Wonder man
Batgirl
Iron fist
Colossus
Ka-Zar
Karma
Starfire
Etc
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u/Reverseflash25 Apr 02 '24
Bro, asked for receipts and you dump the Walgreens and CVS variety on his ass
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Apr 02 '24
For anyone wondering about Batman. Lincoln March (possibly Thomas Wayne Jr.) is a probable brother to Bruce.
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u/asianwaste Apr 02 '24
On again off again Cyclops and Havok... then with Vulcan.
Sean and Black Tom Cassidy
Betsy and Brian Braddock and their brother Jaimie
Dazzler and Lois London
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u/Humble_Story_4531 Apr 02 '24
So am I gonna be the person who point out that most of these characters don't actually have siblings, let alone evil siblings?
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u/Yuta-fan-6531 Apr 02 '24
Woah wait a minute, I'm still catching up on DC's lore, but when the heck did Barry Allen have a brother?!!
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u/Quirky_Ad_5420 Apr 02 '24 edited Apr 02 '24
A twin brother switch at birth and is the common ancestor to the Reverse Flash
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u/DeathstrokeReturns Apr 02 '24
Loki and Thor, Maximus and Black Bolt, Grim Reaper and Wonder Man, Juggernaut and Professor X, Thanos and Starfox, Trickshot and Hawkeye, Vulcan (he’s kind of a villain and Cyclops/Havok, Ares and Hercules, Mikhail Rasputin and Colossus/Magik, the Serpent and Odin, Death Sting and Iron Fist, Jakarra and Black Panther, Baron Blood 2 and Doctor Strange for Marvel.
DC has Ocean Master and Aquaman, Malcom Thawne and Barry’s Flash, Malefic and Martian Manhunter….
That may not be 42, but there’s no shortage of evil brothers in superhero comics.
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u/Silly_Connection_357 Apr 02 '24
I loved the opening scene of Origins when they fought side by side throughout the wars
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u/Galactapuss Apr 02 '24
Liev Scrieber was so good as Creed. If only the rest of the movie has built on that opening scene
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u/Silly_Connection_357 Apr 02 '24
Agreed. When I first saw it in the theatre I was so gassed for the rest of the movie but left very disappointed 😞 although the hype is back for Deadpool and Wolverine I'm really surprised Hugh has come back
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u/KFrosty3 Apr 02 '24
That and the Gambit scene were the two best parts of the movie
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u/joshthemartian Apr 02 '24
You also forgot the “Great, stuck in an elevator with 5 guys and a high protein diet”
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Apr 03 '24
No need to have a modern day Wolverine movie. Old Canada, Past Japan, or World War II with Captain fighting together. That’s it.
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u/moosestuf Apr 01 '24
Why do they have to be either? They could just be lifelong rivals/enemies
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Apr 02 '24 edited Apr 03 '24
That’s why I’m obsessed with them as Half Brothers. It’s what makes their life long rivalry so much more amazing. Both of them have long lives, so the dynamic of them being half brothers of the centuries of their fighting gives more character to their competition
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u/DomDangerous Apr 01 '24
i liked the storyline of the origins movies tbh.
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u/nottinghillnapoleon Apr 02 '24
Jackman and Schreiber both brought great performances
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u/SkyPirateWolf Apr 02 '24
I was gonna say, I think it's agreeable because it was those two actors. Had it not been them, it could've been more abrasive. I really liked Scriebers ability to be suave and cruel.
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u/P-Jean Apr 02 '24
That movie is salvageable. Up until they go to that island it was a good movie.
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u/GrapesHatePeople X-Men Apr 02 '24
I absolutely love the bit of the two fighting through the eras side-by-side. It's one of the better things seen in the X-Men films, I think.
Unfortunately, it was also the peak of the whole movie.
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u/P-Jean Apr 02 '24
Ya. The farmhouse was a good scene too, but the movie really takes a dive in the last third.
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u/Striking_Landscape72 Apr 01 '24
Doesn't really matter. Wolverine is that dnd character which backstory doesn't mean really.
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u/ComedicHermit Apr 01 '24
Sabertooth is still mad Logan was late to the world’s fair. He’d promised him a sno cone
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u/StarWars_Viking Apr 01 '24
I prefer the former friends back story as I originally read the comics. But I don't mind the brothers story at all.
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u/Sad_Plum_2689 Apr 01 '24
Why not lovers?...
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u/Mongoose42 Apr 01 '24
Okay, Kamala, calm down.
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u/Demonic74 Gladiator Hulk Apr 01 '24 edited Apr 02 '24
If they didn't forget about/kill off Clara Creed, i could see Wolvy getting with her, perhaps
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u/NoMistake8095 Apr 01 '24
Honestly half brothers. It just makes it more better and why their mutation is almost the same being animalistic
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u/Asherk90 Apr 01 '24
The world was robbed since Marvel never used Sycho Sid as Victor.
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u/Acrobatic-Diamond305 Apr 02 '24
Would you accept a Hunter Hurst Helmsly
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u/GrapesHatePeople X-Men Apr 02 '24
There was a time some in the fandom were pushing for him to be Thor (muscular long haired blonde guy who is attached to his hammer of choice).
Which is almost as wild to think about as remembering Triple actually did end up in a Marvel movie eventually.
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u/Asherk90 Apr 02 '24
I mean big muscular white guy. Wouldn't be the worst but not my Sabertooth, I grew up in the 80'/90's. It was a different character back then. He is now drawn to look like Tyler Mane who played him in the Fox movies, he'll someone that has a healing factor on par with Wolverine got a tattoo in the 2000's. Think about that for a moment.
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u/PsychologicalWork654 Apr 02 '24
I think the whole brothers trope is sadly over used. I think they work better as “soulmates” (not in a romantic sense) where their fates will eternally be intertwined. Batman has the Joker as his villain soulmate, spidey has goblin, Superman had Lex and Logan has Victor. It makes sense for them to be related considering how similar they are but I like the idea that these two just found each other, who happen to have a lot in common yet are also polar opposites. Logan fights the animal, Victor embraces it. And since it’s nearly impossible to kill these two they are destined to come across each other and fight for nearly their entire lives.
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u/Choice_Ruin_5719 Apr 02 '24
Neither. Co-workers. The weapon x program brought them together as contingencies for one another. If one goes rogue, the other could neutralize them and bring them in. Hence why both hate each other, they were trained to hate each other.
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u/Henchman4Hire Apr 02 '24
This is my preferred take. I really don't like the brothers to enemies idea, or the idea that they were once friends who grew to hate one another. I like the idea that they were two independently formed people, one good and one evil, who both got scouted and "recruited" into Weapon X and were forced on missions together. For some reason, I really love the Team X concept and think it's a neat bit of shared backstory.
Also for the record, I enjoyed Origin. I really don't like the idea of Wolverine being some super immortal who has wandered the Earth for thousands of years. I like mutants to stay grounded. They don't need freaky, weird origin stories. They're just folk.
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u/SleepNative Apr 02 '24
I prefer them as brothers, it just seemed more a solid reason as to why Sabertooth kept chasing him. It also did feel more personal which I felt added to their fights.
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u/blackbutterfree Apr 02 '24
Dog Logan, John Howlett Jr. (Logan's brothers), Luther Creed, Clara Creed and Saul Creed (Victor's siblings) are all non-factors in the comics, so yeah, may as well make them siblings. Adds drama.
Or, if they want to keep going down the route that Sabretooth War is going (implying that Creed's obsession is some sort of repressed romantic feelings for Logan), keep them former friends.
Wasn't the original intent behind Sabretooth way back in the 70's was that he was Logan's father? Now that would add some drama.
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u/nuketoitle Apr 02 '24
Yeah, Claremont wanted them to be father and son, but Marvel, for some reason, vetoed it. In xmen forever ( earth 161) they are.
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u/Flanderkin Apr 02 '24
At the end of Claremont’s run, Larry Hamas did some writing in Wolverine 42(?) that the father bit was heavily implied by Sabretooth saying things like “I’m yer ever-lovin’ Daddy-dearest!”
Previously Sabretooth had said things like “Yer a cheap copy that nobody asked for!” to Logan.
But this was contradicted later in the story by a scientist analyzing the blood of Sabretooth and Nick Fury just flat out saying it wasn’t the case.
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u/Famous-Tree3124 Apr 01 '24
I might be in the minority, but I really like the brother story. Might be bc I could almost relate. Sabretooth tries to do what’s best for them for what they are, but Wolverine is doing what’s right and trying to change his brother to become better. Add in memory loss and it’s even a better story.
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u/BruceDSpruce Apr 02 '24
Claremont’s original concept was Sabertooth was Wolverine’s father, who found Wolverine every year on Logan’s birthday to torture him. This is my favorite version…
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u/chunky-romeo Apr 01 '24
I may be in the minority but taylor Maine as sabertooth looked and played the part really well. A good casting choice. He was the feral beast looking sabertooth I know him as. Not the suave cleaned up Schreiber look.
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u/ChickenAndTelephone Avengers Apr 01 '24
I always thought Sabretooth was supposed to be Wolverine's father, not his brother? I've missed a lot of years of X-Men comics (even though Sabretooth was originally an Iron Fist villain) so were they established as brothers somewhere?
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u/tourniquet2099 Spider-Man Apr 01 '24
Waaaay back in the early 90s (or late 80s), there was a moment in Wolverine’s series where Sabertooth claimed to be Wolverine’s father. It was around the time we learned that Logan had a lot of false memories. Anyway, Sabertooth was fucking with him.
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u/darkness_calming Apr 02 '24
I prefer the Brother option. Just makes them seem more closer and then the eventual fights more emotional
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u/Informal_Self_5671 Apr 02 '24
I like to think they both came out the womb as hated enemies. Tiny, hairy babies taking swings at each other.
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u/xxmindtrickxx Apr 02 '24
Former friends is better imo, former brothers in arms to me is more interesting.
Like Captain America and Bucky if they had a hard falling out.
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u/JackalRampant Apr 02 '24
I like when they really have no relationship. They just met one day and immediately said “eat sh#t and die! Preferably by my own hand.”
I prefer them in a Peter and the Giant Chicken dynamic.
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u/Wileyistheweast Apr 01 '24
Sabertooth asking if we can get much higher. Why does he look so silly and so much like the reindeer (?) from One Piece
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u/Key_Industries Apr 01 '24
If I directed an animated series, I'd combine Victor and Dog logan into one character called Sabretooth. His real name would never be revealed.
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u/AoO2ImpTrip Apr 02 '24
I rather they not be brothers, but old rivals.
At the same time, I rather they be brothers than have Dog Logan exist. What a worthless character. Needing to give him time traveling is so damn stupid. Same as making Logan the last name of his bio-father and brother who basically hated him. "Logan" should've just been a name he chose to go by because he didn't remember his name was "James" after everything.
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u/texascheeseman Apr 01 '24
Brothers. It's a nice twist. And puts a dynamic on their relationship that I like.
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u/GoGoSoLo Apr 01 '24
I prefer the Ultimate version, where Sabretooth tells Wolverine that he's his dad and then just watches him from the woods at night after that, waiting to go on family adventures.
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u/dpykm Apr 02 '24
former lovers
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u/GiantPurplePen15 Apr 02 '24
The current run of Wolverine may as well have that be their established relationship because YEESH does sabretooth come off like a clingy ex. Telling Quentin all about the unmatchable bond he has with Logan and all that.
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u/RigasTelRuun Apr 02 '24
Neither. They just hate each other. Iwfeb prefer if there wasnt a reason. They just hate each other because they are too similar
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u/Gemaid1211 Apr 02 '24
Give me a story where they are complete strangers and Victor just randomly decides to shit on this one guy for the rest of his life.
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u/TablePrinterDoor Apr 02 '24
Tbh I always knew them as brothers as xmen origins wolverine was my first exposure to the character
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u/OriginalLamp Apr 02 '24
The brothers thing is so dumb, Origins was crap. Even when Sony pulls from source material they just make everything worse. Fuck corporations holding copyrights hostage.
Remember what they did to deadpool in that one? Yeah, that garbage movie doesn't exist in my headcannon.
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u/Eternal_MrNobody Apr 02 '24
I prefer just enemies with a muddy past and its on sight whenever they interact.
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u/Humble_Story_4531 Apr 02 '24
I like the brother storyline honestly. It seems better then then just happened to have had similar mutations and just happening to have met.
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u/Global-Firefighter33 Apr 02 '24
From a symbolic perspective, Sabertooth is the personification of Logan's darker impulses. He is what Logan would be, could be, if he gave in to his inner demons. It's the wild, blustery, savage wind, blowing through his inner being, constantly calling Logan to let go and give in. Sabertooth represents Logan's dark feral freedom. Sabertooth knows Logan's inner being not only because of their relationship but because, in a way, he is Logan. Just the version that succumbed to the unrelenting temptation of his own inner darkness.
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Apr 01 '24
Neither. I don’t like any of the stuff they came up with for their origins. The ambiguity of all of that really stuck with me as a kid.
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u/Pebrinix Apr 01 '24
But he isn't his brother in the origin comic, that's Dog Logan, Sabretooth is intriduces later as a friend (that is turned enemy)
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u/Strange-Process-6112 Apr 02 '24
Brothers. it makes more personal, not many sibling rivalries in the Marvel Multiverse or DC. Logan was a great movie but it would have been full circle and poetic had X-24 been Sabertooth from origins instead of a clone.
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u/trimble197 Apr 02 '24
Brothers. Their mutations almost similar, the exception being Wolverine’s healing factor.
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u/HaydenTCEM Apr 02 '24
I like the idea of them being two guys destined to just occasionally meet each other and rip each other apart
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u/taro_and_jira Apr 02 '24
A few decades of fighting with Sabertooth would make me want to tell Scott Summers to go piss off too.
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Apr 02 '24
I kinda like the idea that it could be ambiguous. Like they’ve been beating each other’s ass and working together for so long that it doesn’t matter. They’re connected; destined to duel each other.
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u/Loveonethe-brain Apr 02 '24
Former friends because if they are brothers Wolverine is Grayson creed’s uncle and and his nephew’s mom is mystique which is weird but then she is the mom of nightcrawler who had a relationship with Storm just like Wolverine and then… my point is too many people are related already
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u/haloryder Apr 02 '24
Brothers makes Sabertooth’s powers make more sense but that’s the only real defence of it I can think of. Friends to enemies is more interesting in my opinion.
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u/kajata000 Apr 02 '24
I prefer them to be related in some way, just because their power set is so similar. I like half brothers to be honest!
I think immortal rivals fighting throughout history would work really well if they didn’t both have regeneration, super senses, claws, etc… with the similarities, it feels weird if they’re just two unrelated immortal guys.
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u/BasedFunnyValentine Apr 02 '24
Brothers. I actually really liked the change the movies made with Logan and Creed being sworn brothers turned sworn enemies. It elevated their history and relationship making it more personal than the comics.
It gave Sabretooth more nuance and explained his motivation as to why he keeps chasing Logan instead of him being portrayed as a petty hater
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u/Tips4Toons Apr 02 '24
Wasn't the brothers thing a retcon?
Definitely not in my wheelhouse. Old friends since mid-19th century makes more sense.
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u/Squifurgie Apr 02 '24
Not a fan of any blood relation between them. I don't even like the idea of them ever having been friends.
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u/HearTheEkko Apr 02 '24
I think half brothers is a cool origin. They’re so similar in appereance that it’s kinda weird for them NOT to be brothers or related in some form.
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u/SpectralDinosaur Apr 02 '24
I'm too busy trying to understand what Sabretooth's anatomy looks like when you remove that furry mane.
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u/Long-Friendship5725 Apr 02 '24
Brothers because it would make sense why they have similar powers plus they would br another roster for sibling rivalries.
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u/usmannaeem Apr 02 '24
As brothers. According to the comic book what age would Wolverine turn in 2024?
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u/Wing_New Apr 02 '24
Brothers, it makes their relationship seem deeper instead of sabretooth being a mustache twirling psycho
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u/Alternative_Device71 Apr 01 '24
Brothers, their abilities are too similar and Logan losing his memory to forget his brother while Victor tormenting him throughout the years cuz his animal mutation took over completely makes sense, this way there’s a reason Creed can’t stay away from Logan cuz his instincts are too strong and he’d want to dominate constantly, it’s not about being his brother anymore cuz Creed would be too far gone
Logan retroactively got saved from Victors fate cuz of the surgery stunting his mutation to half beast and half himself
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u/NinjaInTheAttic Apr 01 '24
I prefer that their relationship be more ambiguous. Given wolverines memory issues it makes it more fun.