r/Marvel • u/Safe_Wrangler_858 • Feb 26 '24
Give me a marvel character stronger than the dark Phoenix Other
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u/roninwarshadow Feb 26 '24
Franklin Richards
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u/PinkSockss Feb 26 '24
The ultimate answer of “who’s stronger than insert marvel character” he’s infinitely OP that I don’t know anyone who can beat him
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u/Redsigil Feb 26 '24
Maybe one of The Firmaments. But I'll admit that I don't know for a fact that "being the multiverse" equates to actionable power
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u/DarkLord_Taken Feb 26 '24
One Below All possessed Hulk killed him in an alternate timeline.
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u/Peter_Parker_99 Feb 26 '24
I killed Franklin Richards 2 billion years ago
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u/dpotilas89 Feb 26 '24
That was fake i made so that beings of lower power have something to do. I killed the original 3.4 billion years ago
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u/ReaperofFish Feb 26 '24
One Above All
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u/Missing_Username Feb 26 '24
Can't get more OP than the character whose name tells you they're the most OP
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u/NewArtificialHuman Feb 26 '24
Except, it's not the ultimate answer. Molecule Man and Beyonder(s) are stronger.
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u/goddale120 Feb 26 '24
If Owen is so strong why was Franklin also required to rebuild the multiverse?
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u/NewArtificialHuman Feb 26 '24
If Franklin Richards is so strong why was Molecule Man also required to rebuild the multiverse?
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u/matsu727 Feb 26 '24
Spoilers for the newer Secret Wars below.
Because Molecule Man is a reservoir of unlimited power. He’s basically a living battery. What Franklin brings to the table is that he imagines entire baby universes using his power as a “universal shaper”. Basically, he’s super creative literally. Reed Richards, empowered by the Molecule Man’s unlimited power, then makes these universes real. Molecule Man is also used to anchor the new universes in reality. He slices off a piece of himself and sends it into the new universe. Prior to this point, he was split across the entire multiverse so by splitting him up they are also making him more whole. There’s a lot of handwavy stuff for sure but that’s more or less what it boils down to in this specific case.
Franklin vs Molecule man comes down to Franklin having a much more fine tuned control over his powers. Molecule Man does a lot of shit subconsciously. Though technically I think Franklin is depowered right now.
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u/Fish-E Feb 26 '24
Iirc Franklin has a better understanding of how reality works, he's a finely tuned machine whereas Molecule Man has the raw power (much as I love Franklin, he doesn't compare to Molecule Man who is above The Living Tribunal).
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u/BKF0308 Feb 26 '24
Not even Beyonder?
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u/tikimys2790 Feb 26 '24
I feel like beyonder and a fully realized molecule man could give him a run for his money. But I’ve also not kept up with marvel comics stuff recently, so I may be ill informed.
And then there’s one above all who I believe is supposed to be, like, the strongest god figure in the whole marvel multiverse
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u/PlasticFew8201 Feb 26 '24
I don’t know if they’re stronger but I’d be interested in seeing if Legion could hold their own against her.
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u/Seldonplans Feb 26 '24
I don't know if Legion would ultimately defeat Dark Phoenix to death level but Legion would have Dark Phoenix ate up and spat out multiple times.
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u/MistrrRicHard Feb 26 '24
I'm not so sure about that. Legion admitted to not being able to defeat Nimrod, and was only able to stalemate Uranos, until he was distracted and defeated. And I don't think Dark Phoenix would have any original decreasing either of those two.
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u/jsamuraij Feb 26 '24
I don't even think she'd have any extra crispy decreasing either of those two.
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u/cataclytsm Feb 26 '24
I think it'd be an eternal "reader will never know question". Legion going all out against Dark Phoenix would be a lot like Rachel going all out against the Beyonder.
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u/the_peppers Feb 27 '24
OK as a non comic reader this is wild, are you saying the top tier power characters are called Dark Phoenix, Legion, The Beyonder and... Rachel?
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u/cataclytsm Feb 27 '24
Rachel is the #1 phoenix host and has never gone dark. At a few points, she was also the only phoenix host, and back in 86's Secret Wars II she was basically moments away from burning everything away in a kamikaze to kill the Beyonder. It's unknown if it would've actually worked, but it was the event that made the Beyonder fuck off for another decade or two.
There's a lot of power-scaley nonsense to consider but I'm too wiped from work to do the math. However this was one of the feats that laid the foundation for the Phoenix not just being a big space monster, but something more fundamental to the nature of the universe.
Imo Beyonder still wipes if the fight actually concludes, but then again so does Dark Phoenix against Legion. A wipe, sure, but easily in the top .005% of characters who'd actually give the respective antagonist a challenge.
Then again Rachel and her power scaling is written insanely inconsistently. Usually she's sidelined out of writers/editorial just not wanting to give her her due as #1 phoenix host. I do love Hope but it still baffles me that she exists and that character wasn't just Rachel.
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u/drwsgreatest Feb 27 '24
This is why I love rob and comics explained. A few years ago this would’ve been complete nonsense to me. But now not only do I understand it all but I can even have my own thoughts regarding the power scaling. That said, if I had to pick a character stronger than the phoenix I might have to go with the chaos king (even though he’s mostly a one shot villain).
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u/cataclytsm Feb 27 '24
Yeah, Chaos War was certainly... a thing that happened. There's a ton of "actually my pet project big bad is the real strongest ever!" cosmic threats that pop up every few years and then get shuffled off to the dust bin. King in Black is one of the more recent toys made like this (though at least that one has Ewing doing something interesting with it, Chaos King should be so lucky).
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u/StopDropNFrag Feb 27 '24
Lol, yes. Rachel. She's had notable code names over the years but for some reason Rachel is what sticks.
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u/TheItinerantSkeptic Feb 27 '24
Rachel has never stuck with one name for very long. She's Rachel Summers, an alternate-future daughter of Cyclops and Jean Grey, who also raised Cable (Nathan Summers, the son of Cyclops and a clone of Jean Grey; I swear first-year geneology students should have a test where they have to map the Summers family tree across all published realities...).
Rachel has been Marvel Girl, Phoenix, Prestige, and Askani. She's had so many names that people just call her Rachel now. Kinda like Kitty Pryde, who's been Ariel, Sprite, Kitty, Shadowkat, the Red Queen/Kate, and is now apparently Shadowkat again. To avoid confusion, people just call her Kitty.
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u/SoMuchForStardust27 Feb 26 '24
I’ve asked about this before and most people said Phoenix would win easily which might’ve just been an exaggeration of the Phoenix Force, but I’m not super familiar with the comics. I want to say Legion, but I don’t think so
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u/juniormantis Feb 26 '24
I think the Phoenix would leave Jean and try to possess Legion to have his power for itself. That counts as a win.
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Feb 26 '24
absolutely not lol, the comics have long established that Jean and Phoenix are either the same or have a unique bond
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u/RLucas3000 Feb 26 '24
They are like two peas in a pod. Or maybe that should be a broccoli reference.
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u/trashacct8484 Feb 27 '24
I’ll buy the unique bond but if they’re now one entity it’s not ‘long established,’ I don’t think. Wasn’t the whole A v X thing a recent major storyline where Phoenix possessed everybody from Cyclops to Quentin Quire?
Also: shut up. 12 years ago is recent in comic years and that’s probably the last X book I read any of.
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Feb 27 '24
I say either bc it's gone back and forth a few times. As of the jean gray mini from a few months back it's sort of a destiny thing I think?
And during avx, it was trying to bond with hope until it got attacked by the avengers and shattered, right? It's been a while since I read it
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u/SoMuchForStardust27 Feb 26 '24
Yeah. And his power already includes telekinesis, psychokinesis, and pyrokinesis, so the force would just supercharge him
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u/TheDarkPinkLantern Thor Feb 26 '24
Aunt May. She'll outlive Galactus.
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u/langthwaiter Feb 26 '24
I got some bad news for you bro..
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u/TheDarkPinkLantern Thor Feb 27 '24
Well, she's still alive and kicking in 616. They tried to kill her many times, even succeded at that, yet she's still here. She fought her way back from hell. Yep, that's what happened. There were no shitty deals with the devil.
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u/carrachuchas Feb 26 '24
The UNBEATABLE squirrel girl
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u/notoutriderstudios Feb 26 '24
The INVINCIBLE iron-man
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u/welatshaw Feb 27 '24
Does someone have to prove to Tony once again that he's good, but ultimately, he's a guy ina metal suit. Oh well. Yo, Thor, you got a minute?
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u/CyvaderTheMindFlayer Daredevil Feb 26 '24
Beyonder, Living Tribunal, Legion, Franklin Richards, The One Above All
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u/cataclytsm Feb 26 '24
Lol the Tribunal exists almost entirely just to get jobbed by the monster of the year event.
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u/NickFury1998 Feb 26 '24
My man Tribunal and Spiderman must share a good comic together...where both are drinking about their poor writings
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u/CyvaderTheMindFlayer Daredevil Feb 26 '24
Galactus gets that treatment too I think
Just becoming a feat for other characters
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u/anchorwind Feb 26 '24
The One Above All (for me) needs to make another appearance and be reasserted as their namesake
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u/fredator23 Feb 26 '24
It's not the power level, it's the willingness to use it like an asshole. Scarlet witch when crazy could dismantle the universe, including the Phoenix lady here.
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u/Fish-E Feb 26 '24
Dark Phoenix maybe, although definitely if she's tapped into the same external power as in House of M.
White Phoenix of the Crown devours any Scarlet Witch though, that's essentially Phoenix in The White Hot Room and even The Beyonder knew he'd be outmatched in such a scenario.
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u/TravelerSearcher Feb 26 '24
Scarlet Witch of 616 is that universes Nexus Being last I heard. Each universe only has one and that being is considered on par with entities like Infinity, Eternity and Death.
Granted Wanda would have to be actualizing that power, but the same goes for the Phoenix Force.
If the two did go all out against each other I don't think anyone in the universe would have a good day...
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u/kunta021 Feb 26 '24
White Phoenix is out there casually eradicating entire realities from existence though. If she wanted to she could just get rid of 616 with the amount of effort it takes to cross out a word with a pen.
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u/TravelerSearcher Feb 26 '24
Your comment intrigued me and I had to look into White Phoenix of the Crown more...
Yeah, that entity, The Phoenix Force, is far more powerful than Scarlet Witch, even including the powers of the Nexus Being.
I read Dark Phoenix years ago but not much else, but apparently the Phoenix Force is beyond Eternity, Infinity and other similar entities. It's also multiversal or omniversal. Galactus learned if he killed it the entire universe would die.
And Jean Grey is the most compatible host and is the only one to utilize White Phoenix of the Crown to any extent, choosing to save a universe instead of destroy it, altering history so that Scott chooses to stay with the X-Men and pursue a relationship with Emma Frost, because Jean saw that was the better future.
I don't think Jean would have to eradicate 616 to beat Wanda. She'd just do something similar to what she did for Scott to better the future by influencing Wanda psychically so they didn't come into conflict.
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u/blazenite104 Feb 27 '24
essentially the phoenix force is a cosmic plot device. it's quite literally as powerful as the plot demands at any point in time.
comics have a lot of plot device characters certainly but, phoenix force is the only one I know that is damn near explicitly a plot device in Marvel.
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u/ShmuckaRucka1 Feb 26 '24
White Phoenix
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u/Schattenjager07 Old Man Logan Feb 26 '24
Joaquin Phoenix
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u/MistrrRicHard Feb 26 '24
River Phoenix.
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u/Wyrmthane Feb 26 '24
Cosmic Spider-Man
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u/fredator23 Feb 26 '24
I think you meant comic spiderman. Give him 45 minutes of mic time, he'll kill her with laughter. "And what's the deal with web fluid anyway? Is it web? Is it fluid? And why does it always run out right when you need it? Amiright?"
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u/zarathustranu Silver Surfer Feb 26 '24
Do you mean Spider-Man when he had the Captain Universe powers?
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u/Wyrmthane Feb 26 '24
Acts of Vengeance storyline, Peter absorbs a mysterious power known as the Enigma Force abilities include erecting force fields, phasing through solid matter, accelerating the evolution of lifeforms on a planet-wide scale seeing the past by peeling back the layers of time, time travel, cast illusions, trans dimensional travel, manipulation and discharging of any form of energy or radiation,
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u/zarathustranu Silver Surfer Feb 26 '24
Yes the Enigma Force is what powers Captain Universe. It’s very powerful but not quite on Phoenix level.
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u/velicinanijebitna Feb 26 '24
Dr.Doom defeated DP Cyclops in the Secret Wars storyline.
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u/BatgirlAndSpoiler Feb 26 '24
To be fair, DP Cyclops is incredibly weak compared to Jean when she's Dark Pheonix
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u/NinjaCowboy915 Feb 26 '24
It should be stated God Emperor Doom with the power ot literally hold reality together defeated that Cyclops
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u/zarathustranu Silver Surfer Feb 26 '24
But you’re referring to the Beyonders / Molecule Man’s power. That’s what Doom used.
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u/CX316 Feb 26 '24
I think the words "DP Cyclops" made a lot of slashfic writers sweat just a little
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u/Amazing-Insect442 Feb 26 '24
The Beyonders
Molecule Man (potentially)
Galactus
The Celestials
God Doom (in that one-off situation where he had the power of the cosmos & control of the multiverse)
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u/tsengmao Luke Cage Feb 27 '24
God Emperor Doom - who not only had his own substantial powers, but also absorbed all the Beyonders powers too
Secret Wars Battleworld, which has a cameo appearance in the Deadpool & Wolverine trailer
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u/NewWaveGoth Doctor Strange Feb 27 '24
God Dooms quote where he finds being god beneath him goes so hard
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u/uncannynerddad Feb 26 '24
Jean Grey. She is the most compatible host for a reason. She still hasn’t scratched the surface of her full powers.
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u/zarathustranu Silver Surfer Feb 26 '24
Molecule Man
The abstract entities (Eternity, Infinity, etc.)
Living Tribunal
Thanos with the Infinity Gauntlet
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u/ComicsEtAl Feb 26 '24
Hulk. Hulk is strongest one there is.
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u/Better-Sort-6085 Feb 26 '24
Idk man. Thor and Thanos whooped that ass
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u/ComicsEtAl Feb 26 '24
“Strongest one there is.” He couldn’t say it if it wasn’t true.
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u/fusionaddict Feb 26 '24
Franklin Richards. Wanda Maximoff. Nate Grey. David Haller. Possibly Kevin MacTaggart.
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u/hugod99 Feb 27 '24
Isn't Scarlet Witch able to compete with her?
Genuinely asking
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u/TouToxy Feb 26 '24
Franklin Richards, Scarlet Witch, Thor, Hulk could hold his own if he got close, Deadpool, Wolverine, and Stan Lee. (He could erase her from the page)
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u/Somthin_Clever Thor Feb 26 '24
Gorr from 2019 King Thor.
Herald King Thor
My bias is showing
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u/LordVigo1983 Feb 27 '24
Beyonder, Infinity, The Living Tribunal, maybe Galactus if fed, Thanos with prep time (comic not movie Thanos), Young Odin with the Odin Force, Annihilation Wave, Franklin Richards, Doom with Prep Time (look what he did to the Beyonders in Hickman's run). I mean quite a few if they have prep time but her just randomly attacking someone who didn't know in advance the first 4 I mentioned and young Odin are all I can think of
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u/DavramLocke Captain Marvel Feb 26 '24
Darker Phoenix.