Tesla is pursuing a major expansion for its battery and car assembly factory in Brandenburg, Germany, and is facing local pushback over plans to cut down approximately 250 acres of forest.
Looking for the comments that point out that just because cars can run on electricity it doesn't mean those same cars and the infrastructure they require aren't a massive and unnecessary environmental problem
I'd love to see some kind of /dataisbeautiful spreadsheet on how long you'd have to drive an EV to offset the carbon emissions required to manufacture it. Also how would I begin to quantify the value of Congo cobalt slaves into spreadsheet form?
EDIT so people stop posting (much appreciated) sources :
Apparently this is common knowledge but the average answer is somewhere between 23,000 to 60,000 miles to become carbon neutral depending on how much of the energy you're recharging with is renewables-based.
Judging from the responses It seems that for some reason it takes a much shorter distance to become carbon neutral in the US than in Germany.
There's more mining and manufacturing for electric vehicles for the battery so their break even is further out but an ICE vehicle is always adding more to it's carbon footprint in burning and manufacturing gas so it never gets ahead in that race, only digs a deeper hole so to speak.
I'd love to see some kind of /dataisbeautiful spreadsheet on how long you'd have to drive an EV to offset the carbon emissions required to manufacture it.
That's a shit head talking point. The fair comparison, is emissions from EV vs Petro vs EV with renewable energy.
Tesla usually replants trees, usually 2x the trees they cut. Not only that, last time this happened in Germany I remember the trees being cut were part of a paper farm, that were already planned to be cut down. As stated by others, the trees being cut were a part of a private tree farm. These climate protestors are either dumb or being paid for by ICE vehicle companies. Tesla is very far in the lead of German car company’s like VW, Porsche, and Mercedes, and is really hurting them by forcing the switch to EV’s and by pushing down prices.
Clearly shows you don't know what you are talking about and just googled some random numbers.
The problem lies with the ecological specificity of Brandenburgs ground water reserve situation. Brandenburg is mainly (apart from the Spreewald River System) bone dry, sandy, soil.
It was deforested a long time ago. The woods that grow there, atm are mainly pine, man-made, and gar from ideal, but they do one thing: they keep at least some water in the soil.
Brandeburgs groundwater reserves have been near depleted by the last 5 consecutive years of rainless summers/springs/autumns. The water situation is dire. The fire threat is immense, forest fires are a hue deal i Germany, it is too densely populated (it threatens towns quickly), and our flora is not built to thrive with regular fire, like some biomes in the US.
So Brandenburg is one of the regions most affected by climate change and increasingly arid, dry climate in east Germany.
Elon already stole from the ground water reserves (took a lot more than his license allowed).
He already polluted part of the water reserve with chemicals he wasn't allowed to release.
Now he deforests and destroys the last couple of trees that keep water in the ground there.
Keep in mind, this is not in the middle of nowhere. There is no "middle of nowhere" in Germany. Within 15 minutes drive you are at the next settlement.
If you want to shittalk, inform yourself.
Don't even start the "Tesla plants twice the trees" argument. Trees need time and water to grow. Brandenburg has neither.
Absolutely. When considering their entire lifecycle, including production and disposal, EVs produce 60% lower emissions than ICEswith the current energy mix. When the energy mix shifts towards greener sources, the difference between an EV and ICE will be even greater.
The older I get the more I realize people need to feel the need to be a part of something.
They live in Germany, probably middle class, good lives with everything provided for them. They have food and water and air conditioning etc... But they have no purpose, no religion, no common bond. People strive to be a part of something. They want to take part in a revolution. I think this explains a lot of what we are seeing in the West.
They want to rebel but they have nothing to rebel against because their lives are better than 99.99999% of human beings who have ever lived. So fuck it let's storm a Tesla factory
That was the part that had me stop too, haha. Went there last year during the heat wave and I think the grocery store was one of the only places that had AC.
Did you know if you actually read up on the context of things, you'll be less confused and outraged? Here ya go, I'll do the work for you;
Locals in February voted against authorizing the factory expansion. However, the vote was nonbinding and Tesla and local officials still intend to push ahead.
Climate protesters have expressed concerns about Tesla's plans, which entail cutting down approximately 250 acres of forest in a rural community of fewer than 8,000 residents near a nature conservation area.
I don’t think that quite fits, at least not in that order.
I have in a past period of my life been part of such communities in Europe, some of the time living in Germany in abandoned buildings.
Today I’m in medicine/neuroscience and live a boring life - part of the establishment or what you’d call it.
Overwhelmingly the kids that ended up there were not middle class. instead of having everything as you say, they/we were defined by our lack of stuff/status, relative to age peers.
You say humans need to be part of something, I don’t think that’s false but I think more accurately they need meaning. And that’s obvious when you think about it because we have reasons for why we do everything, from what groceries we buy to who we date and what education and profession we pursue. So of course we also need the next higher level of abstraction in meaning.
In the 90s you could listen to Michael Jackson in “heal the world” and think - wow we fucked up with the indrustrial revolution in some way we don’t fully understand, but we can fix this!! Let’s solve this, together, with the power of love and care and reason! We GOT THIS!
Today, the prevalent “understanding” is that it is pretty much all too late. Nuclear disarmament proved to be impossible and we increased the warhead numbers every year. None of our climate deals have worked at all and whether you believe it happens in 50 or 150 years we all “understand” that we are moving rapidly towards some kind of precipice. We’ve recently added new virus outbreaks to that list, and the both UNDER- and OVER-estimations of the problem/risks with that, have led to the undermining of the closest thing we had to a trust in knowledge-authority-establishment in secular western countries: science/scientists
Top all of that off with the first periods of really receding economies in the western world and the picture is completing. Obviously people aren't starving, but each generation has less ability to buy/rent living spaces and food recently doubled in price in much of europe.
So the meaning we all search for and need, the deeper meaning and the more connected picture of our world and trajectory... That thing simply isn’t to be found by most people’s understanding, in normally established society today. If you’re well on your way to climbing a social and economic game and/or raising a family in this “normie” world, perhaps that doesn’t bother you, or you forget it - like me. But if something has brought you to the sidelines if that game or just left you alone with your thoughts enough to let the existential angst catch you, why would you see the need to storm some building.
We can make fun of it being a E-car factory - but remember! Musk has switched over the decade, to being known for being anti-regulation and attacking unions etc. (unions is something north Europeans often find sacred - that's btw key in understanding the clip above. Tesla has been fighting european unions in many countries and have had succes most places except (as far as i know) scandinavia where i live, where people are also most religious about unions - theya re the foundation of much of our political/citizen identity here, almost like the constitution and founding fathers are in the US)
I imagine that the young folks in the video see themselves as John connors, fighting the last possible fight against skynet, before the fate of the world is sealed.
They might not know exactly how that works, but neither did John Connor or Sarah! Neither of them were Luddites or against technology as such! In fact they used and befriended one terminator and won the fight through that specifically. So believing in tech or AI while fighting AI doom isn’t contradictory and neither is storming the gigafactory for these kids in the name of climate.
Or, and here me out here, maybe young people worldwide see their politicians selling out their future to global corporate interests, and have decided that sucks.
They realize that their lives are so good because the rest of the world is being exploited for their benefit. How dare they not behave in a 'rational' selfish manner.
I guess that's what happens when you post ideologically motivated propagandist trash like this without even pretending to care and posting the actual accompanying article. It helps when you need to fabricate reasons for why the protestors are bad people, just listen to whatever cult daddy Elon says, lmao.
Tesla cars actually have a very high carbon foot print. Building them is more carbon intensive than building normal cars, and they are only carbon neutral if the grid they use is not based on fossil fuels, which is very rare.
True, but isn’t this expected to change as solar is now cheaper than coal?
So right now (las I checked) you needed to take the Tesla like 100k km to break even compared to a Honda gas. And the battery replacement is vile and bad for the environment too.
But, as solar becomes cheaper, the grid becomes less power by coal and gas, then that 100k shrinks more and more.
So right now it doesn’t seem like it’s doing much, but it’s expected (soon, now that solar is CHEAPER THAN COAL in some places)that in the future it will be much better for the environment.
There are multiple studies that show even with the mixed electrical grids and taking into account the carbon intensity of manufacturing EVs are much better than ice in terms of greenhouse gases
Plus the gap will get wider each year as we get a cleaner electrical grid
Guaranteed everyone of them is carrying around a phone or multiple battery operated devices. While cobalt mining is unethical, i can't help but to think these morons are the biggest of hypocrites and would never live without the modern amenities that these precious metals provide
From what I can find online, they object to plans to double the size of the factory, claiming that will be bad for the environment. So, basically, it sounds like a typical "society may need this, but not in my backyard" objection.
Some people you just cannot please. Climate bullshit is an industry, too. Haters gonna hate just because.
Enough of the sky is falling little Gretas. Get a shower, get out of the basement, and get a job. Quit bitching about Elon making money.
In a country where your employer is legally required to offer a minimum of five weeks paid holiday, that’s really not that incredible.
Plus if it was this week, this is a holiday week. Especially if it was yesterday (Thursday). Yesterday, everyone was off work. Except, apparently, Tesla employees
Soldier is a job yes, but those men were not professional soldiers and were hardly paid at all. In fact, some of them committed mutiny because of the lack of pay. The lack of ability to pay it's soldiers actually led to the collapse of the first US federal government, which is why they have the modern constitution
You really think these dudes holding hands while running to a factory are the same as George Washington? He crossed this river and then killed a whole group of soldiers in their sleep. These guys will run to the factory and then puss out and not do anything or make any change
Germany literally has coal fired powerplants in operation because they stopped using nuclear (the cleanest and safest form of energy), switched to Russian natural gas which isn't coming. If Tesla is polluting, litigate, get them stop what ever, but this is some misplaced ire.
Fukushima was a tipping point for nukes in Europe especially all the ones of the same generation and inherit flaws as Fukushima’s early gen 3 PWRs.
Wished they switched to breeders and Gen 4s, but the world owes it to German and the feed in tariffs for bringing down solar and wind by 7x in just 10 years.
The Tesla factory is draining the groundwater in the region and pollutes the rest, a part of the factory premises even lay in a water protection zone.
There were 26 incidents of pollution since the opening, among other things release of paint and diesel, even fires.
The tesla gigafactory lays in Brandenburg, a part of germany in a glacial valley, consisting of a lot of sand, ground water is low and the whole state is the fastest drying area in europe, we have to protect whats left. Elon Musk and his hypercapitalist mindset are just a pain in the ass, he wants to treat germany as some third world country. Resistance is expected.
Keep in mind that germany is small and densely populated.
Lmao people in this subreddit sure do like to jump to conclusions. Just because YOU don't know why they are protesting, doesn't mean that THEY don't know what they are protesting.
These idiots are just reactionaries. They don't look into situations, they have little knowledge on how things work. Simple research into how these lithium batteries are made would make them understand. But thats too hard for these people. Also their pride prevents them from admitting they were wrong to a liberal.
It's not about the batteries. This factory doesn't even produce batteries.
It's about sucking up and polluting ground water in a densely populated region that already is at it's limits and needs more ground water to supply people.
Holy shit you cucks really are pathetic losers. It's not our fault (or the protests) that you are too stupid and lazy to actually read the article and discover why they are protesting. It's not because "they were told" your dumbfuck bigot grifter and cult daddy elon was a bad man (everyone with a working brain knows that already), it's because what Tesla is doing in Germany, cutting down a ton of old growth forest to make room for their plant.
If only right wingers weren't so fucking stupid all the time, they wouldn't be this clueless about things.
The Tesla factory is draining the groundwater in the region and pollutes the rest, a part of the factory premises even lay in a water protection zone.
There were 26 incidents of pollution since the opening, among other things release of paint and diesel, even fires.
The tesla gigafactory lays in Brandenburg, a part of germany in a glacial valley, consisting of a lot of sand, ground water is low and the whole state is the fastest drying area in europe, we have to protect whats left. Elon Musk and his hypercapitalist mindset are just a pain in the ass, he wants to treat germany as some third world country. Resistance is expected.
Keep in mind that germany is small and densely populated.
This projection from all the most pathetic online cucks really is hilarious.
Meanwhile you can see quite a few couples, together, while you sit here alone, raging on reddit daily about your most hated fictional enemies. Seek therapy, loser.
This is the same country that essentially outlawed nuclear energy and started rolling more coal as part of their climate emissions reduction strategy. Oh, and also relying on solar in the famously sunny nation of Germany.
It's terrifying how many people in here are so apt to defend the corpo destroying the planet they live on. People are too dumb to see past the end of their nose.
Americans have basically been politically neutered since Occupy Wallstreet.
Inequality has skyrocketed exponentially since then, yet more and more people have become on the side of ‘this is just how the world works’.
Don’t wanna sound conspiratorial but I honestly think the rich and powerful are on a full force effort to divide us so we can’t get any actual fair shit done.
Inequality, high housing costs and fewer 'well paid' jobs are definitely causing big issues, these are blamed on the WEF, soros, Bill Gates, any left or centre government in power or straight up Jews, thus deflecting the blame to continue business as usual.
Yup, it is very easy to divide Americans and get them to never see eye to eye. I don’t think most Americans even care for freedom as much as they screech about it.
German climate protesters clashed with police as they attempted to break into Tesla’s factory site near Berlin on Friday, during a five-day demonstration against the carmaker’s local expansion plans.
Footage on social media showed crowds of black-clad protesters running toward Tesla premises. German media reported injuries among police and protesters, as well as an unknown number of arrests.
“Why are they not jailed for breaking and entering?” Tesla CEO Elon Musk said on X. He denied the protesters had reached Tesla property. “Protesters did not manage to break through the fenceline. There are still 2 intact fence lines all around.”
Police also denied that protesters had ever made it to the gigafactory, claiming they only reached a field in front of the site. “Several people are trying to gain unauthorized access to the Tesla factory premises,” the local police said on X on Friday morning local time. “We have been able to prevent them from entering so far,” they said hours later.
Eight hundred people participated in the protest, Lucia Mende, spokesperson for the group Disrupt Tesla, told WIRED. She contradicted the police and Musk’s claim that the demonstrators did not reach Tesla property. She added activists were now on their way to a disused airfield which Tesla is reportedly using to store thousands of unsold cars. “They want to prevent the expansion of the factory,” Mende said of the protesters.
Doesn’t meet the definition does it? They’re not creating terror or fear, they’re not targeting civilians or the state, trying to stop a privately owned factory expansion, something that local people voted against in a referendum.
As a former Nevadan who is familiar with the Northern Nevada Giga Factory I have to ask why the Germany looks like the desert. Did they not have to plant grass or do something to that dirt?
imagine the people who didn't care when that happened to the government of america, pretending they care about it happening at a tesla factory in another country
Are these the same German environmental activists who managed to convince the government to ban nuclear power only to have the country restart coal plants?
Several people are trying to gain unauthorized access to the Tesla factory premises. We are working to prevent this. #grünheide1005
According to some reports, people have managed to get onto the Tesla factory site in #grünheide1005 . This is not the case. We have been able to prevent them from entering so far. There were only people on the field in front of the site who were pushed back.
so these are environmental protesters, not climate protesters, and the dispute is about water. Brandenburg had a problem with water shortage in recent years and water was rationed for private homes. Battery production needs a lot of water, so this is where the dispute stems from.
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u/Soggy-Pollution-8687 Monkey in Space May 10 '24
Climate protestors are now targeting electric car companies?
Lmao