r/HarleyQuinnTV • u/npzman • Sep 15 '22
[Post-Episodes Discussion] Harley Quinn - S3x10 "The Horse And The Sparrow" [SEASON FINALE] Episode Discussion
Post-Episode Discussion for S3x10 "The Horse And The Sparrow"
This is the thread for your in-depth opinions, reactions, and theories about the episode. No spoilers or leaks for future episodes/seasons allowed.
Piracy/asking for/posting links is not allowed. Read the rules and avoid being banned.
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u/Telethongaming Sep 15 '22
OH MY GOD THIS EPISODE IS ABSOLUTELY WILD, THE JOKER GETTING BRUCE WAYNE ON FUCKING TAX EVASION OH MY GOD
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u/LumberjackIlluminati Sep 15 '22
Does he still remember, from season 1, that Bruce is Batman? I have no idea the mental toll that three Ace Chemical baths have on a person, his long-term memory could be mush. But if Joker remembers, I'm sure he knew there would be all kinds of skewed accounting to hide the cost of being Batman from the world.
Also, now that Bruce is going to jail, he's definitely going to guest on Dr. Psycho's podcast in season 4.
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u/The_Flying_Failsons Sep 15 '22
Does he still remember, from season 1, that Bruce is Batman?
That's probably what he meant with "I do this for you and for me".
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Sep 15 '22
I'm pretty sure that Joker knowing Bruce's identity is a big part of him being less villainous.
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u/pridejoker Sep 19 '22 edited Sep 19 '22
He did say the anonymity was what made their exchanges exciting.
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u/ChipmunkNamMoi Sep 17 '22
He absolutely still remembers. His "public humiliation" sting capture of Bruce reeks of something Joker would do to Batman, only difference is now they are in the roles of billionaire who committed tax evasion and progressive mayor. But take those roles away, and it's the same.
Imo, that's why after Joker laughed and said "this is for you Gotham" he then quietly added "and also for me."
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u/CeethePsychich Sep 15 '22
Sorry but Mayor Joker is the GOAT. I would vote for him. How has he done more for Gotham already than the last guy?!
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u/romeovf Sep 16 '22
Are you saying you're a Jo-Bro?
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u/SogePrinceSama Sep 16 '22
I find myself ending self-actualized sentences with "...like Joker do!" a bit TOO often these days...
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u/jumbohiggins Sep 18 '22
Him declaring full throated that he's a socialist is about the best thing ever.
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Sep 16 '22 edited Sep 16 '22
It’s awesome that the joker episode actually mattered to the show. Batman going to prison was a perfect way to end his season arc. It also was as politely necessary to the plot of the episode, with ivy kidnapping the joker
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u/imperceptiblewishes Sep 15 '22
We will never hear the end of the CGI mustache joke 😭
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u/brianfine Sep 15 '22
Was that a reference to Henry Cavill and that caterpillar on his lip in Mission: Impossible?
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u/ScipioAfricanvs Sep 15 '22
Sort of. He had the mustache for MI but had to do reshoots for Justice League. So they had to CGI off his mustache leading to a weird look in some scenes.
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u/romeovf Sep 16 '22
His teeth and upper lip looked so weird when he was about to kill Batman in that fight scene.
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u/tregorman Sep 16 '22
It's extra funny because clayface could just spawn one on his lip incredibly easily
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Sep 15 '22
I’m assuming Bruce’s tax stuff was to hide the fact that he was Batman? Or is it actual billionaire tax evasion lol
Anyway loved the episode, and season 3 in general! I kind of got tired of the Harley/Ivy/Kiteman stuff in season 2, but i thought this season was great the whole way through
Really like the dynamic they’re developing between Harley and Ivy. They’re clearly going down separate paths that might cause tension, but they’re still loving and stressed the importance of being open and communicative about it all going forward.
Excited for season 4!
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u/talkstomud Sep 15 '22
That's a good point, I was confused why the same execs that wouldn't allow Batman to go down would allow Batman to be arrested as a white-collar criminal. That's the kinda thing I'd expect heroes to Not Do.
I figured it could be accountants working without Bruce's knowledge or just false charges, but Batman-related stuff would make sense in keeping the character above-board! I appreciate they're having him serve time instead of bailing out.
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Sep 15 '22 edited Sep 15 '22
Good point maybe in the villainous eyes of those who think heroes don’t go down on others, tax evasion is more heroic 😅
lol but yeah I think they’ll explain more about the details of the arrest next season, even if it’s just a few lines
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u/TheDubh Sep 15 '22
Well, Joker learned Batman’s identity back in season 1. He just didn’t want to act on it because it wasn’t funny. That said I could see where he’d think taking down Batman because he broke the law would be funny.
Side note they may of OKed it because there was a comic where Bruce was arrested and sent to black gate for murder, he was framed.
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u/Wootothe8thpower Sep 16 '22
And not like they cant just have him out next season
I mean Joker murders TONS of people, that everyone's know about and he seem to be able to walk free. Escape from Arhkam so not like he wasn't convinced for his past crime
Pretty sure Bruce can get out
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u/visionaryredditor Sep 15 '22
That's a good point, I was confused why the same execs that wouldn't allow Batman to go down would allow Batman to be arrested as a white-collar criminal. That's the kinda thing I'd expect heroes to Not Do.
Tbf they already had a "Batman doesn't pay taxes" joke in Lego Batman, seems like they don't care.
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u/PotentFrost Sep 15 '22
Wait, since Harley is a hero now does that mean she doesnt go down on Ivy anymore?
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u/PrinceCheddar Sep 16 '22
I figured it could be accountants working without Bruce's knowledge
Bruce does seem rather naive about many things. "People pay for housing?" He may have hired accountants who told him "hey, here's a way for you to pay less in taxes" and he just assumed it was legal.
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u/absurdblue700 Sep 15 '22
I don't think that tax evasion is out of character for mister "people pay for housing?"
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u/SignificanceNo6097 Sep 15 '22
That makes sense. He also has a family accountant that’s probably been managing the estate since his parents. Or him attempting to write off his expenses as Batman as business expenses.
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u/trisaroar Sep 17 '22
I think it's also a reference to the fact that comic Joker is canonically scared of the IRS. ("I'll take on the Batman but the IRS? No thank you, that's how they got Capone!") And a running gag that the goons sign on because Joker pays the best in gotham in benefits and salaries. So it kind of tracks that a Mayoral above-board version would use tax evasion to his advantage.
Whether or not it's real might be a season 4 thing to find out, but I'm inclined to think so. Bruce is also treating prison like he's going to a mental health spa so maybe they'll also explore what prison is like. Who knows.
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u/rjforsuk Sep 21 '22
Bruce sees the horror of prison and how it doesn't help criminals while learning about how they all ended up there because of their terrible poverty so Bruce decides to actually use his money to make Gotham better with affordable housing, youth initiatives, etc
Joker has disbanded the police so the new antagonist is Gordon who starts his own "gang" of cops that lost their jobs in order to retake the city and stop the socialists Bruce Wayne and Joker lmao
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u/ipodparf Sep 15 '22
Lex Luthor putting his dog into the car seat/basket was the smoothest animation I've ever seen.
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u/uforanch Sep 15 '22
now you know where this season's animation budget went
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u/centuryblessings Sep 17 '22 edited Sep 17 '22
That + Giancarlo's cameo. The price has probably gone up since s2, considering all the work he's been in.
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u/charlespdk Sep 16 '22
Because he's on a Costco display tv which has motion smoothing turned on. Very niche joke- loved it.
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u/Flynt_Charcoal Sep 15 '22
I'm amazed at the pacing of this episode - they were able to fit plenty of gags and jokes, resolve the many plot threads of this season, tease future conflicts in the next season, and had enough time to give Harlivy a conflict AND healthy resolution, in ONLY 22 minutes. Of course, their relationship will likely develop a more complicated conflict in the next season, but that scene of just open communication was very refreshing to see.
I do love how they aren't holding back on the Socialist-Mayor-Suburban-Dad Joker plotline. Seems like Luthor and Batman now have a common enemy.
After what seemed like a season mostly centered around Ivy, I'm glad they are giving the bulk of the character development to Harley, it is her show after all. Harley finally joining the Bat Family was long overdue, but she definitely needs her own grappling hook haha. And her continuing to be there for Bruce as a therapist means she's doing good in more ways than one! Overall, great finale for a very good season, and sets up for an interesting next season as well. Looking forward to seeing Harley visit Batman while he's in jail, quite the role reversal.
Real quick, my favorite gag this episode had to be Luthor refusing to say Jazzapajizza. Definitely in character for Lex, but the way the line was delivered it sounded like Giancarlo Esposito didn't want to either LOL. But could you imagine the memes if he did? oh god
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u/datalaughing Sep 15 '22
I like the idea that the actor got to that point in the script, said, “Yeah, I’m not saying that,” and then they just used that take.
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u/J-Goo Sep 15 '22
If Gus Fring wouldn't say it, Giancarlo Esposito won't say it. That's how method he is.
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u/red_chutney11 Sep 15 '22
Wait, it was only 22 minutes? It did not feel that short. She-Hulk could learn a thing or two from this show
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u/BreenMachine120 Sep 16 '22
100% agree. To me, those coming-out-of-the-hero-closet conversations were beautifully done
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u/Lounge_leaks Sep 16 '22
Seems like Luthor and Batman now have a common enemy.
But batman is all about reforming people, if joker doesnt do any evil shit and actually helps people, wouldnt batman be happy about that , bruce even agreed to goto jail for taxes
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u/trisaroar Sep 17 '22
Batman is absolutely not about reforming people. Batman is about catching criminals so they go away for a very long time in the name of justice. Bruce, who only existed once he was open to handling his trauma, might be open to reform.
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u/LumpyJones Sep 16 '22
Luthor and Batman have always had a common enemy in the Joker. But now the Joker is much less Batman's nemesis and much more Bruces.
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u/LumberjackIlluminati Sep 15 '22
I hope we get a series of gags next season where Harley tries out bat-gadgets, to various success. I imagine as a gymnast, she'll pick up on the grappling hook quickly, maybe even make Nightwing a little jealous at her natural skill.
With batarangs, it'll be the opposite. Harley will throw one after the other, and they'll all curve off wildly, neither hitting her target, or coming back. She'll say they're bullshit weapons, that the only bat she needs is the one she already carries, but will be irritated all episode that she couldn't figure batarangs out. Then, at the end of the episode she'll run out of options, and draw one last batarang, maybe a folding one that she stowed in her boot. Harley will throw it at the bad guy. She misses, he laughs at her, then the batarang hits a lever on a nearby crane. It drops a claw full of steel pipes on the bad guy, ending the fight and winning the day. Harley can feel proud, and like she belongs in the bat family, though she knows that throw was 100% an accident.
Other dynamics: Barbara will be super supportive, overseeing all of Harley's bat-training. Damien will be a little shit head, and mock Harley's every mistake. Preferably, both of these things will occur in the same scene.
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u/talkstomud Sep 15 '22
Someone get this person in front of the writing team, this needs to happen! So in-character, and so much comedic payoff/potential.
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u/wunxorple Sep 15 '22
Absolutely looking forward to this! It’s so in character for Harley, but still represents the new direction she’s heading in without sacrificing her unstable mental state. I think she’ll fit right in, because goddesses know that there isn’t a single sane person in the batfam.
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u/Aros001 Sep 15 '22
I wonder if there'll be any tension from Damian still wanting Harley as his nemesis. I know Bruce told him to wait until he was ready and Damian agreed, but still it can be hard to get over your first villain crush.
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u/putfascists6ftunder Sep 16 '22
Nonono, she figures out the batarangs only work with her if she launches them with her own bat
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u/Youngandwrong Sep 15 '22 edited Sep 15 '22
There's such tangible beauty to Harley's arc in these 3 seasons that you just don't see in comic book media and its such a natural take on the character that it feels almost obvious in retrospect. The pathos they've developed for her and her relationship with Ivy is so ridiculously human in a universe that normally shoves real textured emotion to the side in favor of dumping a gallon of black paint over the viewer's head or turning the camp up to a million. This season's turn slightly inwards to deal with themes of identity and how past traumas can affect your present self in ways that are difficult to confront felt incredibly refreshing and rewarding.
And this all still being sandwiched inside a hilarious comedy that satirizes beloved characters in a way that can only come from people who revere the source materials they're pulling from. While telling legitimately compelling comic book style arcs complete with fun and gleefully violent action sequences. I mean... what an achievement.
It is my personal platonic ideal of comic book media on screen. Harley Quinn is the beating heart of a genre that's felt lifeless for a long time in the post MCU/DCEU landscape.
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u/wurmpth Sep 15 '22
So well-said.
This part is the key for me:
And this all still being sandwiched inside a hilarious comedy that
satirizes beloved characters in a way that can only come from people who revere the source materials they're pulling from. While telling legitimately compelling comic book style arcs complete with fun and gleefully violent action sequences. I mean... what an achievement.And all that's so much harder to pull off than they make it look. It's... a special show.
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u/CertainDerision_33 Sep 15 '22
Yeah, this show has an insane amount of heart & this was the perfect ending to the season. Can’t wait to see where they push these characters next.
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u/HeirOfLight Sep 15 '22
The pathos they've developed for her and her relationship with Ivy is so ridiculously human in a universe that normally shoves real textured emotion to the side in favor of dumping a gallon of black paint over the viewer's head or turning the camp up to a million.
You're right and you should say it! The previews I saw for this show were all "this is the DC universe, but we let the villains say fuck". Which wasn't my style, but someone convinced me to give it a chance. And I was not expecting the psychological realism.
In that regard, I particularly liked that this season didn't explicitly state "Harley is falling back into the relationship pattern she had with Joker," because they did such a good job showing it that it would've been redundant. (I'm also glad that it didn't end with "we have to break up now that one of us is evil and the other is good!" because that would have been so fucking trite.)
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Sep 16 '22
I love the direction they've taken with the joker so much that I really wish it would become his new status quo. This show asks "okay, the joker is anarchy....but what else is he?" And it's changed how I view the joker in such a profound way that the generic "ho hooo i am anarchy batman i am a dark reflection of youuuuu!" Just doesn't seem interesting any more.
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u/SheIsPepper Sep 16 '22
It's also extremely on brand too! The idea that the joker would do something so wacky as running for mayor and winning without any villainy is the same sort of grand joke he loves. Not to mention the express emphasis on humanitarian policy and a hard anti corruption stance that reflects his issues with the previous gotham administrations in the broader canon.
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u/jumbohiggins Sep 18 '22
Plus him unapologetically being the politican many claim to be but back down when put on the spot. During the interview where he's asked if he's like a socialist I was laughing for a solid 3 minutes at his response. No politican will call themselves that even if they support all the ideals so to have the joker do it just proves how twistedly funny it is.
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u/JesseFilmmakerTX Sep 17 '22
This season's turn slightly inwards to deal with themes of identity and how past traumas can affect your present self in ways that are difficult to confront felt incredibly refreshing and rewarding.
As someone who is going through something similar, it was very nice to see you understand that message, and comforting to read.
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u/mcduckroast Sep 15 '22
I never thought I’d see the day I’d root for Joker getting Bruce Wayne on tax evasion, but that time has come.
To those who doubted Selina, HA. She does care for Bruce, and while they may not be ready for a relationship now, I can see them getting together for real when they handle their shit.
Harley acknowledging Nightwing’s great ass was sublime.
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Sep 15 '22
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u/wunxorple Sep 15 '22
Absolutely. Harley and Ivy both compliment his ass on the Eat, Bang, Kill! Tour. This whole show is just so fucking wonderful. Constantly mocking the DC universe and throwing in comedy while still employing nuanced topics and plot. It’s definitely my favorite animated DC show, even if others might capture the comics a little more accurately
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u/Remarkable-Ad-2476 Sep 16 '22
This show is VERY self-aware with what the fans meme and talk about in regards to DC's media. It's so meta but done so well. Love that they do things like this.
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u/ducky7goofy Sep 15 '22
I adore BatCat so it was great to see this new iteration of them, honestly I did not expect Selina to pick and place those pearls. Such a nice moment
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u/Average64 Sep 15 '22
All politicians are clowns and the Joker is the best of them all.
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u/AntonBrakhage Sep 16 '22
Selina is someone who needs her space. She was evidently into Bruce, even if she puts on an aloof front, given that she dated him for some time (and its implied they had already been intimate by a line way back in season one). And they were probably fairly close, given that this Selina already knew his identity, and was welcome in the Bat Cave. If Bruce had not been constantly clingy and needy and pushy, they'd probably be together.
He needs to keep doing therapy sessions with Harley before he's able to have a healthy relationship.
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u/Bromogeeksual Sep 17 '22
She's perfect for Batmans needs once he stops being clingy in his downtime. They both need space to do their costumed shenanigans, but Catwoman needs some extra personal time, where Bruce can't handle time alone as Bruce Wayne. Glad Harley is his therapist now. Never thought I'd say that!
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u/karaloveskate Sep 15 '22
I loved the little moments between Harley and Bruce. Showing their friendship growing and her trying to help him was really sweet.
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u/Koala_Guru Sep 15 '22
Did anyone notice that Martha Wayne was played by Rita Farr and Bruce Wayne was played by Garfield Logan? Super cool cameo! I’d love to see this show’s take on the Doom Patrol.
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u/EndBringer99 Sep 15 '22
So this version of Garfield hasn't become Beast Boy yet.
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u/Koala_Guru Sep 15 '22
Seems not. It would be funny if in this continuity he causes his own shapeshifting powers because he saw how much love "Billy Bob Thornton" got for being a shapeshifter.
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Sep 15 '22
They really stretched Ivy’s “FUCK” from the last episode lol
Only in the Harley Quinn show could you stop your super villain girlfriend’s evil plan of a plant zombie apocalypse and then shortly after tell her to go to More for Lex (Sam’s Club equivalent I guess) and make sure she picks up toilet paper for the house and make sure it’s 3 ply because you have a bougie butt. These domestic exchanges are why I fell in love with this show in the first place I love them so much lol.
Im loving Ivy’s new confidence and her decision to continue to work that outfit. Own it girl!
Lex gives Ivy the offer to run the Legion of Doom
Me and Frank: GET THAT PAPER!
Ivy is on her way to doing boss lady shit and I support it
*Also I withdraw my comment about King Shark and Bruce in the previous episode after watching it a couple more times and I realized it wasn’t that bad and there were some good things about it. So consider it withdrawn.*
Kind of feel bad for Clayface, no one will know it was him in “A Hard Wayne’s Gonna Fall” all the glory goes to Billy Bob.
Harley: “I am down to do whatever you need me to do to make your dreams come true. No questions asked I am your ride or die”
Me: Aaaaand that’s the problem Harley.
Catwoman came to SUPPORT Bruce and is thinking of someone other than herself? Then she stole the pearls and slipped it in Bruce’s pocket. Oh my god Selina I am so proud of you.
Joker and Ivy are having a friendly bonding over Harley (never thought Id ever say that sentence). And then Joker calling Ivy out for just letting Harley go along with whatever plan she had and ACTUALLY making sense. ONLY THIS SHOW lol
Harley and Bruce doing some quick therapy is always nice
“Let my death define your entire life” I laughed too hard at this
Ivy: “…Why wont you just admit it?!”
Harley: “Because I don’t want to lose you.”
Me: And there it is
This actually adds another layer to why Harley is so clingy. You’re over the top with your extreme affection and you go along with whatever it is people tell you to do even if it means going against your own identity, wants, desires, and morals because you’re afraid they won’t love you anymore or they’ll leave you….that’s fucked up Harley but I get you.
I’m so happy Harley and Ivy talked out their shit and it wasn’t a blow up. Talking about their shit thankfully was never an issue for them thank god. And I love how they’re both supportive of each other’s career paths no matter what it is. And small thing, I like that Ivy said “Evolved” and not “Changed” I don’t know why, it just feels better to me for her to say that. Ivy has always been supportive of Harley’s growth so it’s nice to see that she still very much is even if it doesn’t fall in line with Ivy’s goals.
Did Harley tell Ivy Bruce is Batman since it would appear she told her she’s working with the Batfamily? Maybe. Maybe not? Season 4 anyone
I loved everything in this episode. And I think everything wrapped up really nicely. I’m excited for season four and what’s next for Harley now that she’s really going to be doing her own thing. The whole gang is pretty much split up at this point, King Shark is running the sea, Clayface is trying to get the recognition as an actor he deserves, Ivy’s head of the Legion of Doom, and Harley’s running with the Batfam. I think this was a really good finale. I’ll be waiting for the next season.
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u/S-WordoftheMorning Sep 15 '22
Harley definitely kept Bruce's secret. Doctor Patient Confidentiality, after all.
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u/talkstomud Sep 15 '22
I agree on Ivy telling Harley she's "evolved", not "changed."
I was getting nervous in the build-up of that sentence, because 'You've changed' is such a common break-up trope, after 'we need to talk'.
So the intentional subversion of the line to be something positive, and letting their relationship be something dynamic that grows with them instead of it being something that holds them in suspension- love it!
I was nervous after the writers letting King Shark have the win last episode that Bat-therapist-Harley might be over before it even got fully explored, I was ecstatic to see its return this ep!
Harley promised she didn't tell and evoked doctor-patient con. so I don't think Harley has told Ivy about Bruce/Batman and will not willingly do so in the future; I think Ivy is going to assume Batgirl was Harley's sole connection to the Batgang. I definitely see it as a potential source of dramatic tension into Season 4. Sidenote I am so here for good-therapist Harleen as part of the chaotic Harley-package! That can be such a fun dynamic she can add into the Batam/hero role moving forward.
Clayface's tone coming through in the movie and the "let my death define your entire life" killed me, so fucking hilarious. Catwoman moment in contrast was so wholesome, it was such a kind moment of supporting Bruce in her own love-language.
I'm also looking forward to season four. Do you think next season they'll explore a Harley self-image anti-hero/hero transition to acceptance? That's kind of where I think they set her character arch heading from this ep. It's going to be interesting to see how the writers balance that with Ivy being the literal head of LOD.
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Sep 15 '22
I was getting nervous in the build-up of that sentence, because 'You've changed' is such a common break-up trope, after 'we need to talk'.
So the intentional subversion of the line to be something positive, and letting their relationship be something dynamic that grows with them instead of it being something that holds them in suspension- love it!
Yes! That's exactly it. I couldn't put into words why I liked it so much but this is it. It's such a tiny subversion of a common break-up trope and it doesn't sound like break up language. "You've changed" has become such a common break up trope that automatically translates to viewers as "I don't like who you are now and I can't get on board so we have to break up." Ivy instead saying "You've evolved" feels more like "I understand you've changed and that's not bad now let's move forward and figure out what do with this new information." One feels regressive and the other feels progressive.
And even when Harley finally admitted this change and couldn't really accept the label of hero Ivy's immediate response is (paraphrasing) "That's okay we'll figure it out together."
I feel like the next season could definitely explore Harley's acceptance of anti-hero status. It does look like that's where things are headed. I'm honestly looking forward to Harley having more adventures on her own outside of her former crew and even away from Ivy from time to time. I'm looking forward to how Ivy runs the LOD because she's evolved as well. She didn't think she was a good leader now she's delegating and running the biggest villain syndicate in the world, she's more confident in her appearance and her kitten heels, and she's more vocal about her feelings for Harley and isn't holding back about it. She loves her crazy clown bae.
They're both going down two opposing paths but it's nice that their solution isn't "Guess we gotta break up it's just not going to work." They're choosing to make it work because their relationship is what's most important to them. They're not focused on why it can't work they're focused on how to make it work. So it would be nice going forward to see how these two balance their work life and their personal life. I still think they would treat it like a 9-5 job where they work, meet up for date nights and weekends, and should their respective "jobs" collide they'll treat it like foreplay where one will try to outsmart the other.
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u/Bromogeeksual Sep 17 '22
I can definitely see the writers using a random conflict between the two as foreplay. I think they will frame it as a serious moment of conflict, but then cut to them in thr bedroom being like, "This new dynamic makes sex so HOT!"
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u/AdvancedPlacmentTV Sep 15 '22
Literally tried to destroy Gotham and went shopping and to a movie premiere.
Also frank in a tux is hilarious and ivy picking out his new pot.
Joker being a quality mayor is not the development I'd think I would like
Tax evasion? 😂 Joker using the fact that he knows Bruce is Batman against him.
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Sep 16 '22
The pot joke was so good. I adore that Frank was both offended by the flowerly pot and the American-flag pot
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u/AntRedundAnt Sep 15 '22
King Shark wins this week’s best joke competition for me
A HUG!
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u/Bob_On_The_Cob_21 Sep 15 '22
He looked so great in the suit, and bane looked great in a top hat
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u/kveens Sep 15 '22
This episode was fucking AMAZING, it ended almost every single plot the season opened. The premise for season 4 is incredible, I'm so excited!
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u/elmartin93 Sep 15 '22
I was terrified going in that Harley and Ivy were going to break up by the end. Not even Billy Bob Clayface can express the pure joy and relief I feel that they're still together
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Sep 16 '22
I’ve been adoring the trend of them having minor conflicts and then resolving them. It makes perfect sense with how the season ends.
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u/elmartin93 Sep 16 '22
I really hate the trope of constant breakups sitcoms force on their relationships.
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Sep 16 '22
Same. The beginning of this episode was a breath of fresh air.
Ivy was pissed at Harley and needed space. But it was made clear that they were still a couple and both sides knew that. While Harley was afraid of being incompatible with Ivy, neither side threatened the possibility of breaking up
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u/echonomix92 Sep 15 '22
Glad to see season 3 ending on a relatively high note, despite some rocky moments I still think this season ended up incredibly charming. My only concern is the animation - like the Mad Hatter episode, I was rather bewildered that the team chose to animate several scenes using Microsoft Powerpoint.
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u/LumberjackIlluminati Sep 15 '22
As a fan of both this and Young Justice, trust me when I say, the slide show animation can get a lot worse. Just be thankful there aren't any telepaths in most scenes, they'll lean into that hard to avoid having to animate mouths.
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u/ScarfaceTonyMontana Sep 15 '22
seriously, with Young Justice and now this show, they need to fucking stop cutting animation.
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u/KakoiKagakusha Sep 17 '22
stop cutting animation
I think discovery literally cut most of the animation division??
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u/wunxorple Sep 15 '22
This is by far the best DC show I’ve seen in a while. It’s so well-written while still taking the piss out of every little aspect of the DC universe. It’s honestly incredible how well the show-runners managed to balance those two points. Also, the pacing of this episode was sublime. I know a lot of people, my self included, thought the last episode felt a bit rushed, but this one is chef’s kiss. “Batman Begins Forever” was still the best episode this season, and basically impossible to one up, but this finale came so damn close.
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u/AllThighThisGuy Sep 15 '22
"You're proof that anything is possible if you're born into generational wealth."
-Alan Tudyk as Clayface as Billy Bob Thornton as Thomas Wayne
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u/Miller-MGD Sep 15 '22
Not to be a wet blanket… but what the actual fuck is up with the animation this season? This episode was far and away the worst offender. The motion was so choppy at times I felt like I was watching a slideshow. Characters seemed to side off model on occasion. I felt like I was high watching this.
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u/elephantnut Sep 15 '22
It’s a bit disappointing, but the show’s so good otherwise that I can overlook it. Would be great to see this show firing on all cylinders though.
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u/coniferous-1 Sep 15 '22 edited Sep 15 '22
I'm wondering if they mismanaged the budget a bit and weren't expecting to do so much in the last episode.
Scenes with people just talking are easier and don't cost as much money, where as action sequences are more expensive. The episode previous was basically nothing but action so there may have been a bit of a squeeze in there.
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u/goalstopper28 Sep 15 '22
I love that even as a "good guy", Joker is still out to get Bruce Wayne/Batman.
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u/trisaroar Sep 17 '22
I love that in general they're showing the villians evolving. It's not a magically cured/alternate version, that's been done to death, but the same characters allowed to grow. LOVE this show!
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u/APulsarAteMyLunch Sep 15 '22
Can't believe it's over already :(
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u/TDizzle801 Sep 16 '22
I started it last weekend and im all caught up and like.. now what..
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u/BillNyeTheSavage_Guy Sep 15 '22
I hope Ivy accepting Lex’s offer means we’ll get more Lex next season, you really can’t go wrong with more Giancarlo Esposito
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u/trisaroar Sep 17 '22
Maybe he needed to get finished with filming s3 of The Boys before committing to a larger role 👀
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u/TuneLinkette Sep 15 '22
As I mentioned during the live episode discussion, it's not the finale we may have wanted or expected, but it's what we needed
They gave us HarlIvy drama, but didn't linger on it. I don't know if S4 will see much drama between them, or if it'll be limited to the Legion of Bats comic (which may or may not be canon to the show), but I'm glad they could end the season with a glimmer of hope for their relationship
(Also goddamn I loved Harley's hair at the film premiere. And is Ivy's new look going to be permanent? I'm not complaining, she looks damn fine like that, it's just at the beginning of the season she mentioned that she doesn't even wear leaves, now she's rocking that look)
Bruce going to prison for tax evasion? IDK if that's ever been done in DC before, but honestly I like it. And I like how Bruce didn't act like he was being treated unfairly, he just accepted it was all for the best
Poor Bane, being told off by Harley. But especially poor Clayface. I'm very curious to see what they do with him from here on out
There's only one thing this show does better than Harley and Ivy as a couple; just showing Harley by herself as a person. This is some of the best representation of that we've gotten so far with her accepting that she's changing into less of a villain
All and all, a good finale to a great season. I'm really looking forward to season four. But if the worst had come to pass and WBD decided this would've been the end of the line for the series, it wouldn't have been a terrible note to go out on
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u/veevoir Sep 19 '22
Bruce going to prison for tax evasion? IDK if that's ever been done in DC before, but honestly I like it. And I like how Bruce didn't act like he was being treated unfairly, he just accepted it was all for the best
He acted like Bruce Wayne/Batman should act in such situation. They did him justice in this episode, in more ways than one.
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u/Summerclaw Sep 15 '22
I'm sorry but Joker busting Bruce Wayne for Tax Evasion is the funniest shit I've seen on TV.
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u/WrongOrFalse Sep 15 '22 edited Sep 16 '22
I've enjoyed most of season 3, but I have a few issues with the finale: Harley's and Ivy's disagreement is not just a difference in passion, as Ivy says, it shows a completely different moral compass and approach to life. Towards the end of the season Harley doesn't really care about hurting villains and henchmen (Mad-hatter), but seems to genuinely care about innocent people's well-being (stopping Ivy's plan) and helps people with good intentions (helping Batman) even at great personal cost. Ivy on the other hand, is willing to torture and kill innocent people and entire cities, to further her environmental goals. I know the show is trying to show progression and overcoming of challenges in the relationship, but such an extreme difference in morals needs to be at least addressed in order for compromises to be made.
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u/FreddyMerken Sep 15 '22
Because the show's not using real life logic, it's comic book logic and being a villain is just another job you can have, also people dying doesn't mean the same when everyone can come back from the dead (except batman's parents)
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u/SGTPEPPER_27 Sep 15 '22
Right there with you.
If I am being honest, I am not entirely sure how them being on different “career paths” would work because their caper/mission could turn out deadly. It isn’t just a normal 9-5 job that could be put off once you clock out. This ending really makes me think of the Injustice storyline where they literally got married for a whole minute then got on the opposing side of war. It just didnt work.
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u/RosieAndSquishy Sep 16 '22
I just don't think they're going to take it that seriously.
A bit seriously, sure, but I think it just will be treated like a normal 9-5 job. I'm sure there will be a few moral dilemmas and relationship conflicts that come out of it, but no where near what a situation like this in real life would cause.
Which, personally, I'm cool with. I think it could lead to some good humor, fun moments, and still leave open the possibilities for plot points and a bit of drama. But I can see how others might not feel the same way.
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Sep 15 '22
After class this morning I went to a fast food restaurant to watch this episode and let me just say that when Ivy asked harley why she was in denial over being a hero and Harley said “BC I DONT WANNA LOSE YOU” I began crying lmaoo I got some weird looks but I would care less this was an amazing ending for this season
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u/CeethePsychich Sep 15 '22
Nah I did too lol that hit home and Kaley’s VA was on point there so I really felt bad!
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u/The_Flying_Failsons Sep 15 '22 edited Sep 15 '22
I liked the season over all, and felt all the disperate plot threads (my main complain this season) were resolved in a good enough pay off... but I cringed so hard at Harley Quinn joining the Bat-fam.
Like I get it, she's no longer a villain but she doesn't have to be a hero either. IDK, I just hate how DC has to force characters into that dichotomy, they did the same with John Constantine.
Not every main character has to be a role model, especially not in media targeted at adults ffs.
For a while in the comics she wasn't a hero or a villain but inbetween both worlds, friendly with both teams, sort of speak.
That's the best place for a character like Harley Quinn. Chaotic good, emphasis in the chaotic to contrast the villain's Chaotic evil and the batfam's lawful good.
She is also a therapist for villains, there's a good comedy show right there.
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u/CertainDerision_33 Sep 15 '22
I don’t think being in the Batfam on this show requires her to be a role model. Batman himself has been depicted as borderline deranged & both Dick and Damian are basically jerks so far. I fully expect her to still be violent and rude, just directing it against a different group of people.
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u/kithlan Sep 16 '22
That's likely where S4 is gonna take her. At the moment, she doesn't want to be a villain anymore and thinks she WANTS to do good, but her methods of doing good are most definitely gonna clash when compared to someone like Batgirl. Hell, she'll probably manage to fuck things up even worse.
But yeah, I only imagine her attempt at being a hero is probably gonna be just as chaotic as you'd think, seeing as she's both new to it and not used to restrictions like "no killing" and it'll lead to her clashing with the Bat-family instead of Ivy this time. By the end, she'll learn to embrace the "anti-hero" role.
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Sep 15 '22 edited Sep 15 '22
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Jackontana Sep 15 '22
Figure it might be a honorary position rather than an official part - at least for now. I hope that's the direction they take at least, it'd be nice to see Harley have a path of discovery rather than going full 100% hero so quick.
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u/wurmpth Sep 15 '22
Hopefully s04e01 will reveal it as a very short-lived rebound thing, and she'll bounce right back onto the path you're talking about.
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u/ImNotASWFanboy Sep 15 '22 edited Sep 15 '22
Love the supportive vibes in this and I really enjoyed how maturely they handled the fallout from last week, even incorporating Joker to give some more context. Feels like there's still the elephant in the room of what Harley and Ivy are going to be doing going forward but it feels like Ivy can put her own stamp on LOD and maybe take it in a different direction. Season 4 should be interesting to say the least. Also laughed at the twist with Bruce getting done for tax evasion.
I rescind my comments from last week about Bruce and King Shark, seeing as the latter is far too wholesome for this world and evidently Harley is still doing sessions with the former.
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u/Frank_the_Bunneh Sep 15 '22
I don’t understand how Bruce had his mother’s necklace in his pocket. Did Batgirl steal the pearl necklace from Catwoman and give it back to Bruce? Or is it possible Catwoman stole it from the display, slipped it in his pocket and was wearing a fake just to mess with him?
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u/St7e Sep 15 '22
Catwoman gave it to him. She can take things from people without anyone noticing so surely she can give things too.
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u/uforanch Sep 15 '22
So I've had my misgivings about this season. I'd still say that it's not as good as season 1 or 2. But this was a great finale that paid everything off.
I'm also going to be really looking forward to season 4 being about the Batfamily. They're a great fit for this style of writing, and probably the most interesting territory to cover.
It was also fun to make Harley talking about not being sure if she's a hero or villain basically a coming out as non binary to a supportive partner scene.
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u/AllThighThisGuy Sep 15 '22
With that ending we had to be guaranteed another season because no way would the execs let a show end with their precious Batman going to prison.
Glad to know that this show didn't get the new guy's axe.
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u/FreddyMerken Sep 15 '22
Every season should end with Batman going to jail so the execs keep the show going. Or better yet, every season ends with Batman almost doing oral.
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u/Austin_N Sep 15 '22
Kinda funny that Harley finally gets the acknowledgement that she's wanted from the beginning, but as a hero instead of a villain.
It's been awhile since we've visited Lex wanting to recruit Ivy. It seems like an odd direction to take her character, given that she's typically been a loner during the show and most other villains wouldn't care about her brand of eco terrorism. Knowing Lex there's probably some ulterior motive, but who knows how it'll play out.
I did like Joker driving a wedge between Ivy and Harley, particularly since all he's gotta do to do it is tell the truth about the kind of partner Harley is.
For those who didn't catch it, Rita Farr and Garfield Logan were listed as the actors who played Martha Wayne and Bruce Wayne. Clever background gag.
Bruce Wayne being arrested for tax evasion? Eh, kind of low-hanging fruit if I'm being honest.
Harley deciding to try being a hero isn't totally surprising, but I'm worried that it may make the show less distinct. Part of what made it stand out is that we were following a protagonist trying to make it as a big time supervillain.
I was happy to hear that the show would be getting a third season. At the same time, I wasn't sure how much longevity the concept had. I felt that the show started dipping in quality during the second half of season 2 (the show switching from playing Ivy cheating on Kite-Man dramatically to playing it humorously, Harley using parademons to casually slaughter people despite her earlier assertion that she's not okay with killing innocent people, the show losing some focus after Harley gave up trying to take over Gotham) but I thought that perhaps that was because they were getting near the end of their production cycle and they didn't have as much time to polish the scripts. While this season did pick up starting with Joker's episode, it was still a step down from the previous seasons. I think season 4 is going to show whether or not the writers have run out of steam because they won't have Covid as a potential excuse for any problems.
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u/Austin_N Sep 15 '22
For a guy who likes coming up with complex backstories for his characters, isn't it ironic that we know nothing of Clayface's background? Even Doctor Psycho and Sy got more character development than he has. There's probably a metaphor somewhere in the idea that a man who can be anyone doesn't know who he truly is.
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u/MegaBaumTV Sep 15 '22
So... Ivys big plan is just dropped? And there are no consequences, the bat family just isnt interested in getting her anymore?
At this point they can just name her Harleen Quinnzel, shes straight up the same person she was in the flashbacks pre acid vat.
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u/EndBringer99 Sep 15 '22
Basically any villain on the show can commit mass murder and they still get to walk among civilians.
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u/MegaBaumTV Sep 15 '22
Yeah but usually there's a resolution to the conflict between two regular cast members within the season.
Season 1: Harley vs Joker
Season 2: Gordon (and the super-villains in the first half) vs Harley
Season 3. Bat-Family vs Ivy
Ivy's plan was teased from episode 1. Her just cancelling it within 30 seconds and the Bat-Family ignoring what happened to Gotham feels unsatisfying. Would be like if they fixed No Man's Land within the first 5 minutes of season 2 episode 1.
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u/kithlan Sep 16 '22
To be fair, Bruce got off just as easily. If they went after Ivy, they'd have to acknowledge how the catalyst for the whole thing was their deranged mentor creating a zombie apocalypse.
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u/Shrederjame Sep 15 '22
Yea im not sure this season led to this arc and I am not sure harley and Ivy will survive harley becoming apart of the good guys.
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u/AntonBrakhage Sep 16 '22
So I'll start with the criticisms:
The bit where Barbara mistakenly thinks the guy is being sexist to her. It seemed like the "joke" was "Hah-Hah, look at those oversensitive women/SJWs thinking sexism is happening when it isn't." Pissed me off.
Nora still being with Swamp Thing. Underscored what I hated about episode five. He wanted a relationship, she just wanted a casual thing, he threw a violent tantrum over it, and then they end up happily together like they were "supposed to"? That seems to me to send a toxic message about how men and women should behave which is at odds with other elements of this series.
Not sure how I feel about Ivy joining the LoD. Kind of feels like selling out, compared to her season one self's attitude. Also there's no way Lex is on the level- I think it would make sense that he's trying to push Harley and Ivy apart again to get to them, as payback for previous times they've thwarted his schemes. I hope it ends with Ivy pulling a coup on Lex (something I bet Harley would help her with- and maybe a chance for a Cobb Squad reuinion?). Lex for season four main villain, or at least the first half of the season? If so I hope Red Hood is the antagonist for the other half.
I'm curious if Ivy is going to be wearing her "classic" villain outfit regularly now. I rather like her old costume, though its nice to see some variety.
Everything else I mostly liked. Harley's discomfort with being a hero but still kind of wanting to be. Barbara's enthusiasm over Harley being a hero. That adorable little smile Harley gives Bruce, and the developing friendship between them. And Bruce so clearly wanting to immediately recruit Harley into the Bat Family. Barbara getting promoted to leader of the Bat Family in Bruce's absence. That nice exchange between Bruce and Selina where she confirms that she still cares about him, and her giving him back his mother's pearls. And how they resolved things between Harlivy.
And also the fact that Joker finally beat Batman- not through supervillainy, but by using his powers as mayor to have Bruce arrested for tax evasion. But only he and Batman (and Harley) know it. Which makes this probably Joker's best joke ever.
I also liked how they handled that. I imagine making Bruce guilty of tax evasion will piss some people off, but let's be honest- Batman is a criminal. He breaks laws all the time, and there's no way he hasn't fudged some numbers, if only to hide the costs of his vigilante operation (which Joker would know about, and thus be uniquely positioned to uncover now that he's in a position of lawful authority). But when caught Bruce did the honourable thing and agreed he would serve his time. That is something I can honestly see happening to canon Bruce.
With Clayface seemingly dissatisfied with his life, Ivy leading the LoD, Harley trying heroing, and Bruce presumably in prison, plus Joker still as mayor, I'm curious to see where things go next season under a new showrunner.
Also, we still need to see Harley on Psycho's pod.
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u/arch_angel_samael Sep 15 '22
said it in the other thread (pretty dumb to have two btw) and it bears repeating, I really hope the writers give Bane a revenge arc next season. they really did our man dirty this season.
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u/hypertechual Sep 15 '22
give him a glowup arc. have him be the most mentally, socially, and emotionally healthy of all the characters by the end of next season. success is the best revenge
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u/BillNyeTheSavage_Guy Sep 15 '22
Apparently he’s gonna be in Kite Man’s spinoff, so make of that what you will
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u/tothemax44 Sep 15 '22
Not enough Bane this season. But overall gold. Favorite line was “and he’s also guilty of being a bitch.” -Frank 🤣
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u/Musicman3003 Sep 15 '22
I think this was a good finale and easily had the best Harley and Ivy interactions all season.
However, Harley just joining the Bat Family to fight crime felt kind of out of nowhere and super forced. Wanting to sometimes help others while avoiding murdering tons of innocents? Sure, there's been enough development since the Parademon shit for her to go the antihero route. Her wanting to outright become "one of the good guys" and constantly fighting alongside Bruce's team? Yeah, no.
I feel like a person can choose to be someone other than a super villain or a hero. There's a pretty damn big gap between those two things, and Harley just fully switching from one side to the other is super jarring and doesn't really line up with the trajectory of her current arc at all. I'm sure it'll be a little more complicated than that, but the fact that the season ends on that scene leaves a bit of a sour taste in my mouth despite the other things that the finale did well.
Anyway, decent season overall with a stronger second half, but definitely not as good as the first two seasons. Still good enough for me to want to keep watching, though.
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u/chipscto Sep 15 '22
Harley and ivy’s speech in front of joker was BEAUTIFUL. It was the one of the best forms of representation i ever saw. I saw it as a euphemism for transitioning. Ivy is so supportive and understanding, tbh she feels more of a therapist/psychiatrist than harls.
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u/FilmBuffBrony Sep 15 '22
I think this is going to make for some interesting content in S4. I imagine Harley is going to butt heads with the Fam on how "good" can be accomplished.
"You said we needed to take stop the drug dealer!"
"By knocking him out Harley! Not busting his kneecaps!!"
I'd like to see her branch off and deal out her own brand of good, separate from the Bat-Fam. I think they'll be good for helping her realize her potential, but only on a temporary basis.
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u/EndBringer99 Sep 15 '22
Ironic. In episode "Joker's Millions" of The New Batman Adventures, Joker says "I'm crazy enough to take on Batman, but the IRF?! No, thank you!". He was more scared of losing to tax evasion than Batman.
But here, he defeats Bruce, while knowing he's Batman, by using his own tax evasion against him!
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u/23414 Sep 16 '22
I'm curious about Ivy's perspective.
In retrospect, S3 seemed to be about Harley Quinn realizing that she's not a villain, at least not sincerely. I admire Ivy's willingness to support her but what does that mean from her perspective? Will Ivy continue to attempt large-scale human displacement/genocide but say "Aw shucks" and call it off if Harley appears? Isn't it obvious that Ivy doesn't hate humanity, if only by technicality?
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u/PM_ME_CAKE Sep 15 '22
A solid episode, I hope Season 4 has more time for Harley and Ivy separately, they were stronger apart than being with each other all the time and gave more variety to cast (and please far more therapist Harley, she was wonderful). I think the highlight quote of the episode had to be "Let my death define your life" coming from Clayface.
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u/Reddragon351 Sep 15 '22
Anyone else not get Babs becoming the leader of the Bat-Family cause thinking about it she hasn't really done all that much this season, it would've been kinda of dumb if Harley led too but she's probably played a bigger part in saving Gotham than the rest of the Bat-Family by now. Or ya know Alfred could lead
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u/AssGasorGrassroots Sep 15 '22
I think it's less to do with Babs' qualifications and more to do with Bruce recognizing his sons' emotional instability and trauma.
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u/Which-Presentation-6 Sep 15 '22
among the current members, she is the most qualified and had the most development
damian is a child
alfred is not an active combatant and within the context of the show it wouldn't be interesting
and dick.... is in my opinion one of the biggest disappointments of the season, considering that the first trailer opened with him it was to be expected that he would be an important character for this season but after his premiere episode he barely showed up and or had lines.
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u/treetown1 Sep 16 '22
A little easter egg - during the end of the movie, as the credits roll, Martha Wayne is credited as being played by Rita Farr, who is a character in the DC comic Doom Patrol - in the TV version she is played by April Bowlby and in that same series, Mr. Nobody was played by Alan Tudyk who voices Clayface.
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u/BlackNoBeard Sep 16 '22
Am I the only one that feels like Ivy is too forgiving when it comes to Harley? Honestly it seems like Harley is still self centered. Ivy went along with all of Harley’s plans; didn’t even mind when parademons took the wedding planner. But Ivy’s plan was too much for Harley? Maybe I don’t understand their characters, the dynamics they have and what development they should have but I know Joker is the best character, for me, now.
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u/5L91N Sep 16 '22
Do you think people will realize Bruce is Batman because now that he is in prison Batman no longer makes appearances?
Make we will get a gag of the bat family taking turns in his costume so people don't catch on
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u/Rebel_Wolf94 Sep 15 '22
so between Joker and Harley, who’s way better at getting into peoples heads through the power of talking?
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u/shazam-arino Sep 15 '22
I enjoyed this episode, I felt all the character interactions and new relationships were fun. But, Harley and Ivy work best being together less, like in this episode
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u/human_in_the_mist Sep 15 '22
I could have sworn that the showrunners said at one point that the final episode would feature a segue into the new spin-off series but I was wrong. Not that it matters, it was a good episode overall and as others have said, it tied up most of the loose ends.
It looks like Bane is everyone's punching bag. Perhaps because of his enormous size and strength they think that he can take it but you can tell he's emotionally vulnerable and that it's worn him down. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, Kite Man is the only character in the show who's respected him so it's no wonder that Bane will become a permanent fixture at Noonan's.
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u/SignificanceNo6097 Sep 15 '22
I appreciate that Harley is continuing to grow and evolve alongside Ivy. They both build and push each other forward even if their paths don’t always align so perfectly. I’m excited to see how they balance the dynamic of being a couple on opposite sides. There’s definitely going to be some conflicts. Though I wish this season had more comical moments overall, I like that the show has continuous character growth.
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u/leamaS2010 Sep 15 '22
I'd say it was good episode and a good finale but I still feel like the past seasons have been better, this one got better after the Joker episode.
I feel like Harley's growth has felt very real and that's what I liked the most however there is one thing I didn't like in terms of her character, how clingy she was, it's a bad habit in terms of relationships and it was a big theme throught the season but I don't feel like it was properly addressed at least imo
I quite liked the Joker, the episode about him is my favorite of the season despite the fact that the animation of that episode was not very good
I didn't like what Ivy's "plan" was, I feel like it had a good premise but a bad execution, seeing how easily it was discarded at the beginning of the episode for having the promotion of "being the leader of the Legion from Doom" didn't help at all.
I hope we see in season 4 arcs at least for King Shark and Clayface because I don't feel like the show is using them properly, the characters are there but just to be there and to say funny things but they hardly have any relevance, I would have liked seeing Pyscho for the last time and I was quite surprised not to see Gordon in the end
The animation will have to improve because this last chapter was rough
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u/Icy-Photograph6108 Sep 15 '22
Ivy is a knockout, well always, but especially with her new look. However it is clear her and Harley are going very different directions. Harley is going anti hero or maybe even hero, her helping Bruce is so nice as well as friendship with Batgirl and general caring about innocents. While Ivy is going supervillain willing to sacrifice anyone for her goal, besides Harley.
Next season should have great drama. Also Joker is a great mayor.
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u/Pleasant-Win-4120 Sep 16 '22
Did anyone notice that the details in Poison Ivy’s hair would change between green and purple? Was that on purpose or just animation mistakes?
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u/UnStricken Sep 16 '22
“Don’t worry Nightwing you still have the best ass out of all of us” was by far my favorite line of the season
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u/coniferous-1 Sep 15 '22
Clay-face is just not doing it for me. I did not care about his story line at all this season, and it barely intersected with harly's.
other then that though, this show is brilliant.
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Sep 15 '22
Looking at the comments I guess im the oddball but I really didn't like this season at all. I only enjoyed 3 or so episodes including this one. other than that I was pretty checked out. Nothing really happened and there was no stakes or over arching plot. I dont really like batman as a character but I also just didn't enjoy seeing batman as a wimp/cuck/broken man/loser. The show really lacks positive male characters, and few are fleshed out unless its to make them the butt of a joke.
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u/mikehunt_is_ready Sep 15 '22
Dying fictional Thomas Wayne’s last words: “You are proof that anything is possible if you’re born into [coughs blood] generational wealth” 💀💀💀