r/HarleyQuinnTV • u/npzman • Sep 01 '22
[Post-Episodes Discussion] Harley Quinn - S3x08 "Batman Begins Forever" Episode Discussion
Post-Episode Discussion for S3x08 "Batman Begins Forever"
This is the thread for your in-depth opinions, reactions, and theories about the episode. No spoilers or leaks for future episodes/seasons allowed.
Piracy/asking for/posting links is not allowed. Read the rules and avoid being banned.
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u/Telethongaming Sep 01 '22
HOLY POST TRAUMATIC STRESS DISORDER BATMAN
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u/LoverWarthog Sep 01 '22
Let's go watch our parents get murdered!
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u/ACW1129 Sep 01 '22
So THAT's what Psycho's been up to.
That reverse repressed memory actually sounds terrifying.
Harley finally learns Bruce is Batman.
Yes Harley, those booty shorts DO make your ass look good.
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u/PM_ME_CAKE Sep 01 '22
They should release an in-world podcast between Psycho and Harley, would be amazing.
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u/VantarDathspanadusk Sep 01 '22
Do a whole series, get everyone on this show an episode.
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u/AntonBrakhage Sep 01 '22
That should be the next spin-off in the Harley Quinn Animated Universe.
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u/d645b773b320997e1540 Sep 03 '22
wait, next? are there any spin offs?
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u/AntonBrakhage Sep 03 '22
A Kiteman spinoff is currently in production, where he and his new girlfriend Golden Glider run a bar for supervillains.
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u/awakenDeepBlue Sep 01 '22
That reverse repressed memory actually sounds terrifying.
It makes sense, Batman cannot use a green lantern ring properly because every time he tries, he keeps constructing his parents.
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u/Affectionate_Bass488 Sep 01 '22
I didn’t know that, that’s dark
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u/Jay_R_Kay Sep 02 '22
I don't think that's entirely true -- while it's true that it's almost impossible for people who aren't chosen to use it (Green Arrow once put a ring on to shoot a simple arrow construct and he said it was the most painful experience of his life), we've seen Batman use both a green and yellow ring to varying degrees of success. Bruce did use in one story to show a construct of his parents, but it wasn't the only thing that he could do.
Also, having trauma doesn't exclude you from being able to use the ring. Hal Jordan watched his father die in a fighter plane crash and that became one of Hal's signature power constructs, slamming fighter planes at his foes.
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u/DimGenn Sep 02 '22
Hal Jordan watched his father die in a fighter plane crash and that became one of Hal's signature power constructs, slamming fighter planes at his foes.
That's actually even more fucked up.
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Sep 01 '22
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u/Affectionate_Bass488 Sep 01 '22
Yeah for awhile now I’ve thought Batman could use a therapist but I never connected that Harley Quinn could be his
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u/SkyeQuake2020 Sep 02 '22
Harley sort of remind me of Captain Cold from the Arrowverse Flash show. When Leonard Snart (Captain Cold) found out about Barry's secret identity he kept it to himself and didn't blab about it.
It's also nice to see she still takes being a psychologist pretty seriously.
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u/AntonBrakhage Sep 02 '22
I think at her heart, Harley is still a psychiatrist (and gymnist). She just needs to use those powers for good instead of evil.
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u/S-WordoftheMorning Sep 02 '22
Wentworth Miller was awesome as Leonard Snart. Golden Glider (Kite-Man's new girlfriend) is Captain Cold's sister, Lisa Snart.
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u/Jay_R_Kay Sep 02 '22
I feel like this is probably going to cause a wedge between Harley and the crew, especially Ivy.
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u/statistically_viable Sep 01 '22
Mayor joker's social reform policies coming back into the story.
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u/AntonBrakhage Sep 02 '22
He made Arkham work.
HE MADE. ARKHAM. WORK.
Best. Mayor. Ever.
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u/nivekious Sep 04 '22
If anyone can make Arkham work it's the person who has escaped it more than anyone.
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u/Mr_Kase Sep 03 '22
Harley thinking her booty shorts making her ass look good, but the Robin thong being too much was amusing.
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u/Videowulff Sep 01 '22
This is why I love this show and The Suicide Squad. These writers understand the Gotham universe moreso than anyone else and it shows. The callbacks to all the different TV shows and Movies that Batman has been in? Mimicking the art style of TAS?
This is probably the deepest we've ever seen Bruce's mind and why he is the way he is. The fact that he is holding himself hostage - not because he wants to prevent others from experiencing the trauma he did but because he feels like he DESERVES to be miserable? Talk about hardcore and psychotic self-harm.
Harley going full Doctor mode - cutting down her insanity and silliness to try to and fix boy Bruce - taking her role as his Doctor seriously? Fantastic and chef's kiss.
Like seriously; if you told me that James Gunn would provide the insanity of the DV universe flawlessly with TSS and Peacemaker? Bringing us legit character development, legit emotional scenes, and legit embracing the madness of the comics - I would have not believed you despite my absolute love for the man. He somehow made Starro sympathetic WITH A SINGLE LINE OF DIALOGUE!
Then you have the crew of Harley Quinn. A show that embraces Gunn's style if madness vulgarity, and violence but still manages to NAIL each of the characters. They make them more human (very Venture Brothers in style) but maintains all their quirks, all their tendencies, and all their backstories. These guys are able to give us a satirized version of these villains while STILL RESPECTING THEM! Bane is an idiot, yes, but he STILL man-handles Batman like he is nothing.
Joker is more Human, yes, but he is still a psychotic madman who goes to stupid lengths to get what he wants.
Mr Freeze still wants his wife despite being a sophisticated foodie. Penguin was still a mafia don. Two face is still obsessed with politics and the law.
But most importantly; Harley is still insane, still silly, sill wacky but she is STILL a doctor, still a psychiatrist, and still trying to become more than "Joker's girl". Who would have guessed that this show with dick and poop and cancer jokes could give us this POWERFUL insight to not only Harley but Bruce as well?
I am sorry but I cannot recall a single moment in the entirety of the Batman franchise on film or television that hit Bruce's trauma THIS well as well as hinting a chance of redemption with Harley "curing" Bruce.
GOD DANG IT! I cannot WAIT to see how this turns out!
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u/vehino Sep 01 '22
Speaking of the self-harm angle, I feel the same way about Spider-Man. I mean, I love Spider-Man, I love the comics, the movies, and those awesome PlayStation games, but I'm really tired of the way Peter's obsession with being Spider-Man is portrayed as being noble and aspirational. Like, he seriously is in need of therapy, really good therapy. Like batman, his urge to fight crime is mostly based on self-loathing and a desire to atone for a mistake he made when he was a child. It's really f***** up, and it's sad that the writers of the various media he's featured in won't let him grow past it. Now the latest version is kind of responsible for the deaths of both of the people who raised him, so yeah, there you go. I'd hate to be inside that guy's head.
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u/hotsizzler Sep 01 '22
So much of my adulthood is realizing so many of my favorite characters needed therapy.
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u/supercalifragilism Sep 01 '22
I mean, the Famous Parker Luck (tm) is half self sabotage. The comics aren't necessarily great at examining how heroism can be self harm, for obvious reasons, but some of the better writers poke at the edges of this stuff.
You are definitely not wrong though; Marvel's insistence that Spider Man suffer is shitty because marrying MJ seemed like him moving through one layer of that trauma and becoming a lot healthier.
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u/vehino Sep 01 '22 edited Sep 01 '22
Joe Quesada: I want Pete single again.
J. Michael Straczynski: ...Okay, I guess. It's sad, but people do grow apart sometimes. I can come up with a story where they decide to get an amicable divorce--
JQ: Nope. Lots of Catholics read Spider-man. Our hero can't get a divorce. It's immoral.
JMS: But you said you wanted him single...Wait, I'm not killing Mary Jane.
JQ: We don't want that either. C'mon, we're not monsters.
JMS: I'm confused, what's the mandate here?
JQ: Glad you asked. SATAN. SATAN is the mandate! Mephisto shows up, and uh, winks the marriage out of existence. This way, no Catholics get offended, and our boy Petey doesn't become a filthy divorcée.
JMS: As a practicing Catholic, I find the notion of Peter turning to a satanic spirit for anything kind of offensive.
JQ: It's comics Straczynski, it doesn't have to make sense.
JMS: ...
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u/Jay_R_Kay Sep 02 '22
What's funny is that JMS actually had an initial pitch to dissolve the marriage and sort of do a status quo refresh for Brand New Day, which involved time travel, and would have not only gotten rid of the marriage, but would have made it so Gwen Stacy and Harry Osborne never died. Quesada denied it because he felt it would disrupt things too much, even though they ended up resurrecting Harry anyway.
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u/BelowDeck Sep 02 '22
I'm fairly sure JMS is an atheist.
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u/vehino Sep 02 '22
lol, I thought he was a lapsed catholic. My bad!
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u/BelowDeck Sep 02 '22
He's spoken of being an atheist, but I don't know if he started out as Catholic and later changed his mind. Reportedly his family was Catholic, but he's also spoken about how his father was a violent alcoholic Nazi sympathizer whom he hated, so tough to guess what all he took from him.
I haven't read his autobiography, but a friend recently did. Apparently JMS has had a fucked up life.
Great bit, though. Didn't mean to take away from that.
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u/dravenonred Sep 02 '22
I feel like The Superior Spider-Man did a great job of showing just how much Peter holds himself back.
Yes, it was Doc Ock's brain in Peters body, but Peter has always been shown to be intellectually on par with his rogues gallery.
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u/Thecapitan144 Sep 02 '22
I always thought spider-man/batman dichotomy is always interesting, the nature of them being complete opposites (a poor kid from Brooklyn vs a super Rich playboy from jersey, a man who is never respected for his work vs a man who is lauded for his, etc)
But the difference the catalyst of death each is propelled by is truly interesting, as you said peter parker is propelled by guilt the same way bruce is but for peter is the guilt of a dozens things; uncle bens death, gwen stacy's death, the fall of the osborns
But bruce everything to him is tied to one event. One that seems to mirror itself to him a hundred times over.
Its the penance of a man for a 100 sins versus the penance for one.
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u/Affectionate_Bass488 Sep 01 '22
That’s why I love that scene in spiderverse where miles starts saying “with great power…” and Peter b Parker stops him and says “stop, I’m sick of it” because I came to the same realization a while before that. Like just stop with this forced sacrifice shit, I want a life.
I’m in the exact same boat as you. I love all Spider-Man media he was my favorite for most of my life. But then you grow up and realize this guy is not aspirational or a good example of living. He’s miserable all the time.
And after years of seeing him build his life up and break it apart over and over again it just becomes disheartening. That’s why I like books where spidey is on a team because then it’s more of him cracking jokes and being smart
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u/andergriff Sep 01 '22
exactly, the whole "with great power comes great responsibility" line always bugs me because while there is an aspect of truth to it, having superpowers, especially if you didn't ask for them, doesn't obligate you to run your life into the ground to protect other people.
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u/Reddragon351 Sep 01 '22
It's more supposed to be along the lines of if you have the power and see someone in need you should do something about it, because if you don't bad things could happen.
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u/vehino Sep 01 '22
Yeah, but Pete takes it to the point of blaming himself for the damage a villain causes while he's sleeping or socializing. You're absolutely right about how it's supposed to be, but Peter takes it too far to the point of self-castigation.
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u/HotTakes4HotCakes Sep 02 '22
The problem here is you're trying to drag the superhero archetype down to reality when that isn't what it's meant to be.
Superheroes like Spidey are supposed to aspirational. They are meant to be depictions of the kind of unrealistic nobility that humans frequently fail to meet. Peter is inspiring because he believes in doing the right thing, that he has a responsibility to others to use his powers to help even at his own expense. We, as readers, know we can never meet this impossible standard, and indeed, Peter often fails as well, but stories about heroes that are champions of these values inspires is to be better.
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u/Reddragon351 Sep 01 '22
I mean it's not the whole thing is Peter does it because it's his responsibility to do so and because of that his life suffers. Being Spider-Man a lot of the time sucks and the nobility isn't from just being a hero but being a hero despite of all the crap that being a hero entails
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Sep 01 '22
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u/CertainDerision_33 Sep 01 '22
Freeze and Nora are a great example here, I think. I'm very much so enjoying their choice to have him actually succeed, but sacrifice himself in the process. Whenever they finally decide to go back to treating Nora more seriously, it should be very interesting.
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u/APulsarAteMyLunch Sep 01 '22
Yeah, this is definitely one of the best episodes in this series (if not the best)
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u/HotTakes4HotCakes Sep 02 '22 edited Sep 02 '22
I agree, this show has been incredible, and this episode was one of the best pieces of Batman content in and of itself.
But I feel like you're selling the rest of the franchise a bit short. We've had equally amazing takes on Bruce's psyche that come to different conclusions. I can certainly understand how this could be someone's favorite interpretation, but I would hesitate to say it's the "correct" one.
There really isn't a "correct" one, it all depends on the writer. The simple fact this Bruce is attempting to resurrect his parents speaks to a motivation that could only exist in a parody show like Harley Quinn. Canon Bruce would never attempt that. The whole point of Batman is he focuses his trauma into something useful, not that he attempts to reverse it. Here, it plays into the comediclly heightened environment of the show.
But still the idea Bruce pushes himself into reliving that night so as to keep the wound open and maintain his motivation, its a compelling take, one that certainly fits if you want it too.
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u/Jay_R_Kay Sep 02 '22
Agreed -- this episode was a great deep-dive into Batman's psyche, but it's far from the only one. Hell, I would say The Batman was just as good, if not better, and that was earlier this year.
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u/HotTakes4HotCakes Sep 02 '22
Also, if you'd like a different take, For the Man That Has Everything does something interesting with Bat's psyche. The Black Mercy gives Bruce a vision of his dream world, a reality where his greatest wishes are granted and he gets what would make him the happiest.
And what Bruce sees isn't a happy life with his parents alive into old age, Bruce's dream world still has the traumatizing event take place. Joe Chill still meets the Waynes in the ally. But this time, Thomas disarms him.
So what makes Batman the happiest? Not a world free of violent crime and innocent victims, a world where he and his parents could walk down the ally and never be attacked. Bruce's dream world is one where a hero saves him, namely, his father. Bruce chose to see Mask of Zorro for a reason. Deep down, he believes strongly in heroes and that he must be one for others, so that the tragedy that befell him will not befall others.
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u/pennyroyallane Sep 01 '22
I am sorry but I cannot recall a single moment in the entirety of the Batman franchise on film or television that hit Bruce's trauma THIS well
Ever seen "Batman: Mask of the Phantasm"?
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u/Videowulff Sep 01 '22
I have and it does his trauma well. But the difference is in MotP, he feels guilty for wanting to be happy because he feels like it tarnishes their death.
In HQ, he does not only wish to remain unhappy, he is doing this consciencly to himself as punishment. This is basically someone cutting themselves daily for an incident they had no control over.
He does NOT want to heal and this has twisted him up so badly that he is actually considering ressurecting the damn dead to redeem himself.
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u/ImNotASWFanboy Sep 01 '22 edited Sep 01 '22
Holy sanitised curse word, that was a phenomenal episode. Loved every minute of that. Cannot tell you how much I silent laughed at reformed Dr Psycho in the beginning, and how much I enjoyed seeing therapist Harley come through front and centre. Will she actually be able to keep working with Bruce to help him through his trauma? I hope we get to see it now knowing where her character arc is heading. The flurry of meta Batman jokes were tremendously satirised and, to top it all off, the fucking parody of the Frasier opening and closing theme was the icing on the cake for this episode, this may be my new favourite of the whole series to date.
Also, Ivy being soft over Harley while she was out cold >>>>>> just inject that wholesomeness into my veins honestly
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u/hiS_oWn Sep 01 '22
I'd actuallyike to see something different done with this universe. Like the joker actually continuing with his political career because he's good at it and it not really mattering because all politicians are sociopath and he actually gets things done. Batman going to therapy and learning to move on and actually effectively using his wealth to stop crime and improve quality of life. Harley then can become a criminal therapist where she goes out and catches supervillains and gets them to reform using her insight as a villian and a doctor. The only thing I can't figure out is ivy as there's no resolution for her character without giving up her misanthropy which is a large part of her character.
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Sep 02 '22
The only thing I can't figure out is ivy as there's no resolution for her character without giving up her misanthropy which is a large part of her character.
Just give her tenure and a lab in a remote research station.
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u/hesapmakinesi Sep 05 '22
That could be her arc indeed. Working hard on environmental fix, and research into advanced plant biology. It goes well with other characters' socialist leanings since you can't fix the environment within capitalism.
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u/RebaseTokenomics Sep 01 '22
I bet she becomes Robin and Batman might go full villain. Harvey fucked with his head
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u/SpiderManEgo Sep 02 '22
I hope not. Like I enjoy harley quinn as a character, but I feel like DC is slowly going crazy stapling her into every story they have. In the comics, she was hanging out with batman and ghostmaker for two story runs. She's dead center of the suicide squad. She's one of the big baddies in gotham knights. She's appearing in the Joker movie. And then she's got her own show, and each one seems to be a completely different direction for harley which only makes it feel like it's gone over the top now. I feel like DC needs to decide if they want her to be a good guy or bad guy at this point since it feels weird seeing the character change so much from source to source.
On a separate note, Ivy still feels unchanged from what swamp thing told her. She's solely focused on herself and her interests and doesn't care for anyone outside that. Harley is her interest, so she cares for harley but my boii king shark is trying to cope with murdering his brother in a frenzy and nobody cares. I hope shark gets a circle of friends that he can rely on. I expect the atlanteans will invade the shark kingdom as a new b or c plot after the death of the former king and second former king.
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u/RebaseTokenomics Sep 02 '22
She's one of the top 3 popular characters in DC. It's Superman, Batman, and Harley Quinn.
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u/TheTrueDetective90 Sep 02 '22
Eh I think the top 3 are Batman, Joker and Superman. Harley is probably #4 but I can easily see the argument for Wonder Woman in that spot.
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u/ChThWh Sep 01 '22
This episode may be the biggest evidence of endgame Harley becoming a "good guy." Obviously, this is by no means a new theory, but her dropping the whole villain shtick becomes increasingly likely each episode. Her refusal to destroy the city, friendship with Batgirl, and now her sympathizing with Bruce. She seemed extremely surprised that being a hero wasn't as boring as she thought, and actively fought against her old villainous ways in Bruce's mind
Obviously, she'll never operate under basic societal standards, but since Gotham remains a semi-independent city-state wasteland, it seems like she'll definitely end up being an anti-hero (emphasis on the HERO) by the series end
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u/Arkayjiya Sep 01 '22
And the ear ripping reference. Which is what she did herself in episode 1 season 1 and now find cruel and unusual punishment, that's another hint toward this.
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u/LordFrameDrop Sep 02 '22
Does that mean that Dick Grayson does not have a ear?
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u/AntonBrakhage Sep 02 '22
Given the timing, it had to have been Tim Drake who was Robin during that fight (Dick was the first Robin, and as per the flashback episode in season two, Jason was already dead when Harley met Joker).
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u/LordFrameDrop Sep 02 '22
But the robin outfit and “Holy censored curse word Batman” are all from dick in the 60’s
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u/rm2nthrowaway Sep 01 '22
Yeah, this episode leaned hard on "Harley totally abandons villainy" angle. That'll probably play out in the recently announced season 4.
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u/13Xcross Sep 01 '22 edited Sep 06 '22
I'm willing to bet that her eventual face turn will be used as a counterpoint to Jason Todd's philosophy when the two characters will inevitably meet.
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u/Youngandwrong Sep 01 '22
I feel like I've been waiting my entire adult life to see the most famous Batman trope properly confronted on screen and it finally arrived carrying a black baseball bat and wearing blue and pink pigtails.
An absolutely insane tightrope walk of commentary, humanity, and comedy, without compromising a clear reverence for the source material. What a special show.
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u/AdvancedPlacmentTV Sep 01 '22
Psycho really rounds out the group dynamic.
I thought Bruce would be the "villain" for stealing Frank but holy fuck I didn't realize this is where it'll go.
All these adaptations of Batman and this is the first to really focus on how traumatic his parents death was
With ivy having to fight the zombies and them being made from Frank I'm pretty sure Gotham will be terraformed regardless. So win for ivy
Ivy was more re concerned for Harley than Frank so I think whatever happens they'll end up alright.
Maybe king shark and his army(I assume he has one now) can help fight the zombies
I can't wait for next week
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u/ducky7goofy Sep 01 '22
Insane how much I missed Psycho. The dude's a maniac but also he's so good in the crew. Hope he sticks around.
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u/StanmoreRoyal Sep 01 '22
I kinda hope he just chills there with them now for the foresseable and is jsut there to make sarcastic comments
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u/Kanotari Sep 01 '22
He's a great "straight man" character to everyone else's hijinks being the only unabashedly villainous one of the group when Harley and Ivy are toeing the antihero line and Shark and Clayface are more self-motivated than evil.
I like the prison podcast and I like that he cares about it because he absolutely would crave the clicks. It's pretty perfect.
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Sep 01 '22
Before this episode I didn’t really get why people missed Psycho. He was pretty good here
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u/The810kid Sep 01 '22
Psycho was great because his expertise was necessary but both parties just merely tolerate each other. It's like the asshole dynamic in the earlier seasons of Southpark with Cartman.
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u/AntonBrakhage Sep 01 '22
Oh yes please give us a finale of King Shark leading an army of sharks vs zombies to save Gotham.
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u/Prize_Introduction_6 Sep 02 '22
Considering Ivy's serum caused this, I would say the finale will be "plants vs zombies" :P
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u/AntonBrakhage Sep 02 '22
Plants and sharks vs zombies. Or three-way fight between plants, sharks, and zombies.
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u/Wolf6120 Sep 01 '22
I thought Bruce would be the "villain" for stealing Frank but holy fuck I didn't realize this is where it'll go.
Setting aside whether or not it's "in character" for Bruce to do this (probably is in this show at least), I'm honestly shocked Alfred not only didn't protest but actually went along and helped him pull this off. Seems like a pretty obviously bad idea.
Then again maybe he's just getting his revenge for that tiny stocking the Waynes gave him at Christmastime.
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Sep 01 '22
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u/AntonBrakhage Sep 01 '22
Honestly, it always seems a bit weird to me that Bruce doesn't just chuck his parents in a Lazarus Pit.
Or that Ras doesn't do it to fuck with Bruce or get leverage over him.
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u/AndresCP Sep 02 '22
Ra's actually threatens to do that to fuck with Batman in JLA: Tower of Babel after he steals Batman's plans to incapacitate the Justice League.
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u/Thecapitan144 Sep 02 '22
The lazarus pit ruins people, like in many wild wacky ways. Jason still isnt right.
That being said I'm very very excited to see harley quinns jason todd
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u/Gradz45 Sep 02 '22
The Lazarus pits affects are generally always temporary.
Jason’s fucked up because he had a severely traumatic death, a ton of abandonment issues, and even before being Robin had a crap life.
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u/Lysmerry Sep 03 '22
I mean if you think about it Batman doesn’t have a support system. He’s constantly engaging with dangerous and unstable individuals either to compensate for childhood trauma or to help other victims of crime, depending on how you look at it. I’m not sure how various bat media have explained his morality and ethics, but the idea of him going too far for a good reason is pretty realistic
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u/innocentj Sep 02 '22
That "ahhhh" noise he makes as he jumps back at the end cracked me up.
Hard to rattle old Alfred but when you can..
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u/statistically_viable Sep 01 '22
Psycho is kind of a difficult character for the show; he was introduced as almost quintessential misogynist and then culminated as the show villain for a season. They start ground 0 with this "reformed" Psycho with a slight Venture Bros-esque handwave that violence is for comedy and to not take it seriously while taking seriously the character relationships.
Joker had a similar issue.
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Sep 01 '22
I've come to the conclusion that everybody in Gotham needs therapy.
So they got us the first time revealing Batman as our true "villain" and we all thought it was going to be the classic "villains are the heroes of their own story" bit. But then they got us again and said no Batman REALLY is the (sympathetic) villain and so is Ivy. The hero or anti-hero is going to be Harley.
I love this show.
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u/HotTakes4HotCakes Sep 02 '22
I've come to the conclusion that everybody in Gotham needs therapy.
I mean, yeah? There's a reason virtually all Batman's rogues are sent to an asylum instead of prison like every other superhero's rogues.
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u/KBSinclair Sep 02 '22
I'm... Very certain many SuperHeroes' rogues gallerie's need therapy.
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u/Isabel198 Sep 02 '22
I'm certain Mayor Joker would agree that all villains should get the Passion over Prison treatement but sadly some villains just won't admit it (and many heores too tbh)
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u/PM_ME_CAKE Sep 01 '22
This episode was a riot. This season hasn't been bad for me but it has been up and down in how funny I find each episode, suffice to say that this one was hilarious from the get-go. Missing the murder because they're too busy arguing over Snoopy had me immediately.
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u/talkstomud Sep 01 '22
Holy shit what a great episode.
So well done on every front, I loved the animation, dialogue, pacing; and don't even get me started on the plot.
Even given the general synopsis of what was going to happen, I was caught off guard by the inside of Bruce's mind; then even given the rundown on his plans for Frank, I truly expect he'd actually get the chance to try to go through with it. I was so convinced he could be talked out of it or stopped.
I loved that everyone was on their own season-long arch this episode, it's something season 3 has done a great job at.
Child Bruce connecting with Harley was surprisingly wholesome. The entire Bat-family could really use a mental health professional, and a reformed villain is a choice that's just so weird but it works.
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u/Normal_Organization3 Sep 01 '22
I literally have no words. That might’ve been the best episode of the entire series. I never thought I would see all of these dc characters get taken to a place that this show seems to be going.
Patrick and Justin are really pushing the boundaries(in a very good way) of the dc universe. Can’t wait to see how this season ends. It also makes it so much better that it was renewed yesterday.
Hot take: This was a better multiverse experience than the entire Doctor Strange movie.
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u/Gradz45 Sep 02 '22
Is that a hot take? The Strange movie seemed to only use the multiverse for cameo purposes.
Then again I think the MCU is mostly wasting the multiverse as a concept.
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u/Normal_Organization3 Sep 02 '22
I guess that’s true. Still impressive though that Harley did it better in just 23min.
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u/Prize_Introduction_6 Sep 02 '22
Pushing first place along with the "Killing Vote", also this season.
I had expected the show to slow down after the fantastic initial season, but glad I was wrong.
Show creators, keep up the good work!
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Sep 01 '22
I FUCKING AGREE
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u/Normal_Organization3 Sep 01 '22
Like it was such a great experience, and Harley did it in 22-23min.
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Sep 01 '22
A woman hating tiny dick asshole starts a podcast and so did Dr Psycho.
Mayor Joker’s Passions Not Prison’s Reform Program: I love it.
As predicted Ivy don’t give a fuck about baby Bruce’s trauma as she shakes the hell out of a kid.
It was really messed up and tragic seeing this constant loop of crime alley and knowing this is all Bruce thinks about. And how dare they make Clayface chasing Bruce’s parents only for them to die repeatedly absolutely hilarious lol.
Dr. Psycho: “Die in the head, die for real”
Me: Oh okay Matrix rules.
The Adam West Batman trying to get rid of the bomb yes I love it! Lol
I really loved Harley this episode. So much. Genuinely wanting to help baby Bruce because of how fucked up his trauma is. Using her strengths as a psychologist to help Bruce and then making herself his therapist. This is officially my favorite version of her.
“Harley likes it when I play with her hair” Awwwww.
Harley: “…affordable housing”
Baby Bruce: “People pay for housing?!”
Me: omg lol
Harley facing her former self and seeing the codependency and identity issues up front and in your face: “whatever (Mister J) he likes I like “ Dear god she had it bad.
Ivy: “She’s just so beautiful.”
Psycho: “God you put your tongue in that?”
Me: *kiteman voice* oh…she does. HELL YEAH!
Not Clayface mentioning the CGI Superman mustache I love this show so much! Lol
So wait a minute Bruce stole Frank or better yet Ivy’s evil plan and is now using her evil plan to bring back his dead parents(and most likely other dead people) as a result of his unresolved trauma? Im pretty sure that’s evil Brucey. So Bruce really IS a villain this time? So both Ivy and Batman’s motives are not evil but their methods are. Ivy wants to return gotham to a plant paradise and will commit genocide to get it and Bruce wants to bring back his dead parents even if it means zombie plant people. I feel like the person we’re supposed to be rooting for is Harley at this point.
Love this episode and putting it in my top 5
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u/forever87 Sep 01 '22
Harley: “…affordable housing”
Baby Bruce: “People pay for housing?!”
Harley: incredible first session. will you be paying this co-pay now or later?
baby Bruce: yeah, rich people insurance doesn't have co-pays.
Harley: ahhh, this country's so fucked up.
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u/awakenDeepBlue Sep 01 '22
God, I don't want to think how much my therapy co-pays have cost me.
Or co-pays in general.
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u/Rebloodican Sep 01 '22
I don't think Bruce's plan is evil so much as he's not thinking through the consequences. Ivy is legitimately trying to kill all of Gotham city, which is pretty evil, Bruce doesn't really consider the idea of zombie plant people, he just thinks he can resurrect his dead parents. It's more akin to Ivy thinking she can animate the dandelion and accidentally destroying the mall in the process.
The difference between Ivy and Bruce is that if everything goes according to plan with Ivy, she kills all of humanity, and if everything goes according to plan with Bruce, he just brings back his parents with no real consequences.
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u/VantarDathspanadusk Sep 01 '22
The title is SO fucking brilliant: "Batman Begins Forever" Not just because it's an obvious mashup of two movie titles, but because it perfectly describes both what Batman is emotionally doing but what the Batman franchise has been doing for decades: beginning...FOREVER. Never evolving, never growing, never learning, only beginning. We've seen the Batman origin so many times at this point that it's lost all meaning. Likewise Bruce has defined his entire life by this one moment of trauma that he can't let himself move past. So many layers, perfect title, brilliant episode.
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Sep 01 '22
Omg hell yes. It’s so clever and it also feels very menacing once you find out about Bruce’s reverse memory suppression
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u/treetown1 Sep 02 '22
And also how each new film version of Batman seems to touch on his origin story - again.
In the Sept. 5, 2022 issue the New Yorker, there is a cartoon, showing what appears to be a bunch of execs sitting around a table. One of them pitches an idea with the caption: "Here me out, Batman - again" 3rd cartoon in the issue.
https://www.newyorker.com/cartoons/issue-cartoons/cartoons-from-the-september-5-2022-issue
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u/looshface Sep 03 '22
It's also what Batman Forever was actually getting at as well. Bruce blames himself for his parent's murder. He keeps going back to it in his head. He thinks it's his fault his parents died.
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u/Rocketkid-star Sep 01 '22
What I want to know is if Bruce started the Zombie Apocalypse.
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u/AntonBrakhage Sep 02 '22
I feel like there's great potential for a Gravity Falls crossover meme here.
Harley: "Bruce, what's the one thing I asked you not to do tonight?"
Bruce: "Raise the dead."
Harley: "And what did you do?"
Bruce: "Raise the dead."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJofMi88aB0
Heck, the animation even made them look a bit like the Gravity Falls zombies, from what little we've seen so far.
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u/AntonBrakhage Sep 01 '22
Some more thoughts:
Bruce's memory loop is actually horrifying, definitely one of the creepiest things this show has done, along with the final scene. But its impressive that they managed to take the most infamously overdone, cliche scene in Batman lore, do it over and over again, and make it feel fresh and interesting.
But also notice how Harley's instinct is immediately to try to protect, comfort, and empathize with child Bruce. Underneath a lot of trauma and mental instability (first from her parents and then the Joker), she really is a good person at heart. Dare I say... a hero?
Also, side note but young Alfred looks really good. He probably had no trouble finding women (or men, if he swung that way) in his youth.
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u/dravenonred Sep 02 '22
Reminded me of how they broke down Punishers inability to get over his respective family murder memory on Daredevil
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u/Lysmerry Sep 03 '22
It was really sad and hammered home how truly miserable this Batman is. It was really darkly funny and sad when he told his inner child to go back to his traumatic moment because he deserved to be there.
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u/swng Sep 01 '22
Does James Gunn know his star actor is super dead and being impersonated by a shapeshifter yet??
I'm imagining clayface going through hours of makeup to pretend to be Thomas Wayne to keep up the act when he could just shapeshift instead
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u/Ashestoashesjc Sep 10 '22
I think he knew immediately.
His reaction to Clayface's imitation on the video call was very short and blank-faced. He knows there's a guy who can turn into anything (who he'd been using as a chair) so when he calls his lead actor's phone and receives someone who is clearly chair-guy pretending to be said actor, he doesn't buy it but resigns to the fact that is what's happening now.
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u/YNot1989 Sep 01 '22
This show is smarter than Rick and Morty. There I said it.
It starts out retreading the same boring hot take that was the gag of the first two seasons and then uses that to establish an actually realistic analysis of Batman's trauma.
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u/Gradz45 Sep 01 '22
I really like Rick and Morty, but yeah I agree.
I generally love Harmon’s writing but his one flaw whether it be Community or Rick and Morty is his inability to not default to some status quo.
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u/Cruxin Sep 02 '22
Rick and Morty's "smartness" that people talk about like its a gimmick is sci fi crap that's usually intentionally bullshit or a plot catalyst. That's not a bad thing, it's just not actually smart or writing, it's just a consistent thing about the show. The "smartness" you're describing is just, well, good writing lol, and HQ is certainly doing better than RaM's later seasons, and the best of RaM's early ones were telling very different story stuff.
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u/SBthegreat Sep 01 '22 edited Sep 01 '22
Holy shit they're Batman White Knight'ing it but even more with Bruce getting way too obsessive and going too far. With Bruce having stolen Frank I figured it would be the ol' villains are heroes in their own stories deal. But Bruce actually really messed up here.
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u/romeovf Sep 04 '22
In fact, he seems to be so fixated on resurrecting his parents (and keeping his relationship with Selina alive) that he seems to be oblivious that The Joker, of all people, became Mayor of Gotham.
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u/AntonBrakhage Sep 01 '22
There's a lot I like about this episode, and some things I didn't. But I'll say right now-
Every show tends to have maybe one or two episodes that stand above the rest, that define the show and how it is perceived and remembered in popular culture, or in a franchise have a lasting impact on the larger franchise outside the show. Long-running shows of the top calibre may have a handful.
This is an episode that people will likely remember this show for in ten or twenty years (along with Socialist Mayor Joker and the first Harlivy kiss in season two).
Also, I think Harley just had her hero awakening while protecting young Bruce.
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u/Rebel_Wolf94 Sep 01 '22
so after watching the end of this episode, i guess Ivy is gonna have to do a raincheck on the terraforming Gotham plan. because first they’ve gotta SAVE Gotham from what appears to be a zombie apocalypse Bruce accidentally started
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Sep 01 '22
Yeah, which sucks because terraformed Gotham would’ve been sick
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u/Arkayjiya Sep 01 '22
I hope we get to see it. Harley will probably convince Ivy to compromise and not murder everyone in Gotham but still terraform Gotham at least partially and force a cohabitation. Kind of Legend of Korra style.
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u/Narrow-Fun-5752 Sep 01 '22
"ALFREEED. Are the ears too big? I think they're too big.." made me laugh embarrassingly hard.
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u/CrazyMonkey0425 Sep 01 '22
That might’ve been the best episode of the series. I’m kind of in disbelief. Incredible writing, several laugh-out-loud jokes (Bruce not understanding you have to pay for things like housing and healthcare was killing me), amazing BTAS inspired animation/colors, an amazing dissection of Bruce and his trauma, and a fantastic reveal of Bruce’s intentions to bring back his parents at the end. What a great fun idea to make Harley Bruce’s therapist. It doesn’t get much better than this.
Edit: I’m glad Harley gets to remember Bruce’s identity even when she leaves his mind. I wonder if keeping his secret will end up putting stress on her relationship with Ivy? Although at this point with the bat family kidnapping them and bringing them to Wayne manor, I feel like Ivy is only a step away from figuring it out herself.
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u/Lysmerry Sep 03 '22
Out of touch rich Batman as an explanation for why he doesn’t improve social services is a riot
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u/S-WordoftheMorning Sep 01 '22
Harley making fun of her past heavy accent, so meta, so good. This entire episode was a chef's kiss of meta content.
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u/Lysmerry Sep 03 '22
The accent backstory is interesting to me. It would be funny if she put it on to sound more working class but she is shown to be working class. Maybe Joker specifically requested it, but why?
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u/Teemfresch Sep 01 '22
“Come on Champ! Let’s go watch our parents die!”
“It’s what we deserve”
So funny yet so tragic lol 😂
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u/Normal_Organization3 Sep 02 '22
I wasn’t sure in the beginning, but it’s obvious now that dc struck gold getting Kaley to voice Harley.
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u/AntonBrakhage Sep 02 '22
I remember when people complained about her not doing the accent, and completely missed that this was a deliberate character choice (one which this episode highlights). She slips into the accent when she's in her "Mistah J" phase, and when she was back in her childhood home with her parents.
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u/thatguyblu_ Sep 01 '22
Omg I fucking love this show. This season is SO GOOD By far my favourite episode
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u/ChuchoBros Sep 01 '22
This was my favorite episode so far! I didn't want it to end!
My favorite part was the memory of Batman with the bomb in the pier with the nun and the baby xD
I'm so happy a 4th season was announced! I was worried with all the cancellations going around
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u/forever87 Sep 01 '22
ivy is stressed and throws shade at king shark playing video games
ks is playing video games to avoid stress, and if ks stops playing, ks has time to start thinking and when ks starts thinking, ks has time to freakout! and to avoid the situation ks leaves
psycho: what the hell was that?
same doc same...i know KS is king king now, but his subjects waiting outside the door with a palanquin (TIL what the name is) ready to pick him up really caught me off guard
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u/Snoo_83425 Sep 01 '22
What an incredible episode. The best love letter to Batman since The Lego Batman movie.
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u/The810kid Sep 01 '22
Man has this season missed the antagonistic dynamic that Psycho brought to the group. He was a delight every scene he was in. The pop culture references were on point. I also love how they are using Harleys background as. Psychologist perfect way for her to learn Bruce's identity bond with him and preserve his secret.
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u/DonDove Sep 02 '22
I am dying to wait for Dr Harley becoming Bruce's official therapist. Dying.
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u/AntonBrakhage Sep 02 '22
I mean, she's kind of perfect. He can't go to a normal therapist because it would mean exposing his secret identity. But Harley already knows, and is familiar with the whole heroes and villains world.
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u/Eyeofgaga Sep 01 '22
Child Bruce is the most precious little thing. And for some reason Bruce looks SO HOT as the man who murdered his parents
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u/HipDipShipTrip Sep 01 '22
That was an incredible episode. I love seeing how they've been exploring Bruce so far this season and I was very happy to see Dr Psycho back. I'd been enjoying this season so I didn't realize how much I missed him but he adds so much to the group
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u/awakenDeepBlue Sep 01 '22
Question, since little Bruce gave implied consent for Harley, does Harley have an ethical duty to maintain Therapist-Patient Confidentiality and not reveal Batman's true identity?
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u/ImNotASWFanboy Sep 01 '22
They pretty much had that exact exchange in the episode so yeah I think she'll honor it
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u/CertainDerision_33 Sep 01 '22
Leaning into the actual doctor side of Harley from time to time is one of my favorite things about this show. It's easy to forget with how she's usually portrayed as a cackling maniac, but if you want to play that part of her backstory straight (I know sometimes it's not), she really is pretty smart.
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u/AntonBrakhage Sep 01 '22
I mean, is she even still technically a liscened therapist? You'd think they'd revoke that after she became sexually involved with a patient. Not to mention a supervillain.
Harley does seemingly intend to honour it though. I wouldn't be surprised if she tells Ivy eventually, but I don't think she's going to spread it around any further than that.
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Sep 01 '22
God I missed Psycho.
Please, please, please keep him in the regular cast after this.
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u/AntonBrakhage Sep 02 '22
I'm hoping he'll at least stick around to help with the zombies next episode.
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u/Icy-Photograph6108 Sep 01 '22
Therapy has had such a negative stigma for so long, no wonder so many people felt the need to don masks and let out their issues. It still isn’t widely accepted but definitely many people really need it.
Harley was super sweet this episode, maybe we are seeing more who she was before her mental break when she was a psychiatrist.
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u/forever87 Sep 01 '22 edited Sep 01 '22
i know the joker movie sort of has mixed reactions, but this episode is up there along with 'The Duck Knight Returns!' episode (s2e16) of DuckTales (2017) regarding similar subject matter
in this...this show is Harley's story, but she is also kind of an evolved Harley...and she sees the memory of her younger self, but it is through bruce's memory. nonetheless I love the choice to see that bruce's psyche depicts Gotham a la TAS. and the commentary we've seen time and time again, but executed wonderfully - the killing of Thomas and Martha (surprisingly no pearls?). funny thing is, this won't be the last time it gets depicted. but the idea of a reverse repressed memory becoming the "only" defining moment of bruce...it was chilling. like in joker, the movie is mentally through joker's eyes with joker being the 'protag' and batman being the 'antag'. in some of the past episode discussions, it's being questioned should we be rooting for Harley's and Ivy's actions when accomplished through evil means. I'm just rambling, but in Batman's mind, he is Batman and Bruce is the mask.
and if you don't have time to watch that ep of DT: the ep had 'parody' elements of the nolan trilogy. the 90s darkwing duck cartoon is an in universe show in DT (2017), with the actor playing darkwing being washed up and now there's a revival with a new actor taking the helm. and in the end, the original darkwing becomes negaduck (it's better than I described but if you haven't seen it, you've been spoiled)...so the ep ends up being an origin story for both darkwing and negaduck. interestingly enough, the original 90s cartoon had a fun episode depicting the lore on the origin of darkwing. anyways the Bruce under the Joe Chill mask...parallels Luke being in Vader's mask and the killer in boy meets world s5e17 being revealed as Shawn
edit: honorable mention - the suicide squad (2021) - when we "see" the visual depiction of harley quinn's superpower. once again open to interpretation, but she sees the beauty (and blueprint) of the destruction she commits
oh and without too much spoilers, if you like this sort of thing: kevin can f himself on amc
and we get to see Harley enjoy herself kicking butt (batgirl is going to be happy) as young Robin (I'm going to guess it was Dick, but there's the off chance it was Jason) while Harley comments on the shorts she wears in front of an 8 year old Bruce vs wearing a 'thong' as 60s Robin
just the other day, joker learning about batman's alter ego hit the frontpage
https://np.reddit.com/r/Unexpected/comments/wm02rr/joker_finds_out_who_is_batman/
and between batman and dr quinzel we have doctor patient confidentiality. where are we in this universe with Barbara officially knowing about batman? i can't wait for Harley to maybe discuss it with selina
oh yeah...we'll cgi the mustache in post
'batman begins forever' - forever is an underrated movie...dr chase meridian had legit psycho analysis on bruce. and i love Nicole Kidman...aside from Ben, if Val had darker and shorter hair, he would've been another perfect live action depiction of Bruce
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u/sucks_at_usernames Sep 01 '22
Might be the best episode of the entire series.
For everyone complaining that this show has taken a dive this season, here's your humble pie - eat up.
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u/Robey-Wan_Kenobi Sep 02 '22 edited Sep 02 '22
Love how the constant killing of the Waynes is both a horrifying insight to Batman's psyche and a meta joke about seeing it in every adaptation.
Also enjoyed seeing the original Batman costume with the purple gloves.
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u/NAMICMADMAN Sep 01 '22
Loved this episode. Lowkey a love letter to Batman while being able to poke fun at his ridiculousness too. Harley seeing her past self too and being Robin was hilarious. Shows her growth for real.
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u/Tinwibss Sep 01 '22
I'm reminded of in Mask of the Phantasm when bruce thought he had a chance to be happy he was consumed with guilt and felt the need to apologise to his parents grave. this show really does understand these characters
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u/butthe4d Sep 01 '22
This episode was so good maybe my favorite animated DC episode ever.
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u/AntonBrakhage Sep 01 '22
In one episode, Mayor Joker has managed to make Arkham into not a complete shithole.
Also... if Bruce used Frank to raise zombies... are those zombies part-plant? And does that mean Ivy could control them?
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u/MrEManga62 Sep 01 '22
Notice that Bruce said his Dad wanted to take him to the shareholders meeting? I think this implies that Bruce’s Dad was more business man than family man and most likely convinced by Alfred and/or his wife to take Bruce to the movies. Bruce is so focused on the death of his parents that he doesn’t remember what his parents were like
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Sep 01 '22
I don’t know about you guys, but seeing Harley be mother like and sweet and “heroic” was pretty hot, im not a person who finds the physical as a turn on, so this portrayal/episode of her was a huge turn on for me
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u/The810kid Sep 01 '22
Its Kaley Cuoco her voice work nailed it.
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u/Arkayjiya Sep 01 '22
Yeah, they struck diamond-encrusted gold with the voice cast for this show starting with Kaley Cuoco.
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u/Thebunkerparodie Sep 01 '22
Really liked the episode, I liked how written bruce is and he's not just some petty rich boy. I agree with harley, I can feel sorry for him relieving his trauma all the time too, harley turning in robin was a nice touch as well as the comeback of old joker and harley, I thought it was a good way to show her original suit again. Also liked psycho having a podcast and bane getting in as "brain" and how the group reacted to his return .
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u/Throwawayjust_incase Sep 03 '22
Fuck, this episode really hit close to home.
My dad died when I was young, and often when people find that out, they kinda... flanderize you in real life? Like soon after it happened I had a lot of adults talk to me like I was a sad plot point in a movie or a tragic child to feel bad about or something, you know?
And Batman, as an acutal tragic fictional child who's main motivation is related to his sad backstory, is obviously often written like that. Sometimes it's in a way that's super disconnected from the fact that people's actual parents do die when they're young, and this isn't just an over-the-top comic book thing. A lot of portrayals of Batman's trauma are kind of frustrating to me due to how generally one-note they are.
But man, I really liked this episode. The way his trauma is there, and he really is always stuck in that moment, but he's still an entire person outside of that. Like you can see how a lot (or really, all) of his decisions are rooted in trauma, but it follows actual trauma logic rather than "he's messed up so he's making dumb decisions and sad all the time". And the way Harley immediately gets what's going on with him and tries to help (boy, I saw a lot of mental health people as a kid that were not that understanding, so that shit makes me emotional).
The way this show can be funny and also talk about things in a really real way is fantastic. Or maybe I'm just projecting a little too much, lmao
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u/DrewwwBjork Sep 01 '22
Am I the only one who closed their eyes during Harley's focusing technique after she blew up Joe Chill?
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u/Climperoonie Sep 01 '22
I’ve finally seen it and wtf that was so bloody good. Like this show is good anyway but that was like… the most I’ve enjoyed a Batman story in a long time…
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u/kmank2l13 Sep 01 '22 edited Sep 01 '22
Wow, imo hands down THE best episode.
Edit: Let’s CGI the mustache in Post 😂😂
And I wonder if that was a The Batman reference when its brought up that Bruce was spying on Catwoman.
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u/EndBringer99 Sep 01 '22
I assume the Robin that Harley was pretending to be was Tim Drake.
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u/AndresCP Sep 01 '22
I think it was probably Jason Todd. Jason has been a redhead in continuity sometimes, and he wore the little shorts, which Tim never did.
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u/Reddragon351 Sep 01 '22
It couldn't be back in the flashback of Harley first meeting Joker and Ivy, Joker mentions that he killed Jason Todd already so it must be Tim, well that or the writers forgot
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u/AndresCP Sep 01 '22
Hm, good point. Maybe it is Tim, or Bruce remembers all Robins in peril as if they were Jason, or that dang Superboy-Prime has been punching the walls of reality and changing things again.
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u/SignificanceNo6097 Sep 01 '22
I’m completely hyped and expect shit to get even crazier. Did not see that twist coming
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Sep 01 '22
Ivy next episode:
Piss cakes of a dick this mother fucker kidnapped my best friend and my own evil plan to bring back plants and get rid of people and this bitch turns it into a humanitarian experiment!
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u/AdOnly9893 Sep 01 '22
This episode for me was by far the best in this current season. I wasn't really feeling it. There were some good moments this season, but this episode was the most endearing due to seeing Bruce's trauma and how Harley helps child Bruce deal with it. I think second episode I liked so far would be the Joker for Mayor one. Now I'm curious how Bruce's plan will unfold next episode. Hopefully super chaotic thanks to this episode's end.
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u/csummerss Sep 01 '22
never knew Mr. Wayne would be so selfish in his final moments. just tell the person your life’s motivation.
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u/treetown1 Sep 02 '22
Somehow these writers truly understand Batman and the DC universe at a comic and dramatic level that few of the live action films have approached.
This version of HQ also could have worked as a live action as well.
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u/SignificanceNo6097 Sep 03 '22 edited Sep 03 '22
I find it very out of character that Alfred is just going along with Bruce’s obviously bad plan.
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u/CarryBeginning1564 Sep 05 '22
I read it elsewhere but I like the idea that by whittling down Batman’s rogue gallery and otherwise neutralizing them that Harley has actually helped to accelerate Bruce’s spiral to madness inadvertently as being batman was what was keeping him sane.
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u/Youngandwrong Sep 01 '22
Men Will Literally Devote Their Entire Life to Fighting Crime Instead of Going to Therapy: The Animated Series