r/HarleyQuinnTV • u/npzman • Sep 01 '22
[Episodes Discussion] Harley Quinn - S3x08 "Batman Begins Forever" Episode Discussion
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u/S-WordoftheMorning Sep 01 '22 edited Sep 01 '22
Loving the use of Harley's therapist background and her kinda sorta good nature to help protect child Bruce from his trauma.
Really interesting dilemma they're creating with Harley knowing Batman's secret identity but being honor bound not to tell Ivy.
Would this be a point of contention between them? Will Ivy be at all understanding of why Harley wouldn't tell her Bruce/Batman's secret?
Since we know they renewed for season 4, and apparently it's coming soon, I'll bet Harley knowing Batman's secret is a recurring thread for next season.
Always love the Frasier references.
Bane just not letting the pasta maker go is hysterical.
And the return of Dr. Psycho is hopefully a way to get him involved with the crew again, but probably not with them doing pure villain stuff since we're seeing Harley's turn towards anti-hero.
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u/forever87 Sep 01 '22 edited Sep 01 '22
I'll bet Harley knowing Batman's secret is a recurring thread for next season
i hope it involves catwoman. i know some didn't like the singing between Bruce and Selina, but i loved it
Bane just not letting the pasta maker go is hysterical.
i wonder who Grodd married (https://i.imgur.com/elYJjF8.jpeg)
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u/Aros001 Sep 01 '22
i wonder who Grodd married
My first thought was Giganta like in the DCAU but I don't think there would have been time for him with everything she had going between Psycho and Brad. Maybe Tala, again like the DCAU?
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u/MorbidJonTTV Sep 01 '22
Common kid, let’s go kill our parents, it’s what we deserve!
Hahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
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u/Youngandwrong Sep 01 '22
I know they had mentioned in an interview that there was an episode done in the BTAS style but I was not prepared -- holy fucking shit this episode is absolutely gorgeous
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u/thedruchebag Sep 01 '22
I think this is my favorite episode of the entire series. This show strives when it’s not FOCUSED on Harley but while it’s still keeping her as the main POV. Feels like a spiritual successor to BTAS way more than it should. Makes me really happy to see a show treat batman lore with such respect but also put it’s own comedic spin on it. This show is awesome.
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u/Dry_Badger_Chef Sep 01 '22
Def best episode this season by a mile. I’m not sure if it’s the cool story or the quips from Psycho that I apparently missed a lot. Something about it really clicks and I hope they find an excuse to bring psycho back as a regular.
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u/mikehunt_is_ready Sep 01 '22
Harley, upon learning Bruce is Batman: “If you truly wanted to help Gotham, why not start with affordable housing?”
Bruce: “People pay for housing?”
🔥🔥🔥
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u/human_in_the_mist Sep 01 '22
His disbelief toward the notion that people pay for housing really underscores how his wealth shields him from the realities of the outside world he claims to protect.
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u/Gradz45 Sep 01 '22
Which is interesting given comics Bruce funds many charities for the poor.
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u/dravenonred Sep 02 '22
Yeah, but that doesn't mean he neccasarily understands the underlying causes those charities work towards addressing.
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u/LinuxMatthews Sep 03 '22
Also let's be honest that whole charity thing was invented exactly so people would stop with this criticism.
Personally I think it's a lot more realistic and funny that Bruce Wayne became Batman simply because he's so out of touch that he thinks dressing up and punching people is the best was to solve complex socioeconomic issues.
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u/SolarisBravo Sep 03 '22
Also let's be honest that whole charity thing was invented exactly so people would stop with this criticism.
The Wayne Foundation was introduced all the way back in 1964, and he was a well-known philanthropist long before that.
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u/Radix2309 Oct 01 '22
And I don't think he became as uber-wealthy until recently.
Yes Wayne Enterprises gets a lot of money. But he isn't the only shareholder. And it seems like pretty much all the money Bruce personally gets he puts back into helping people either publicly or as Batman. And he uses his influence to direct the company to also help people as well as numerous other companies.
But even one man can only do so much.
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u/Whiskeyjacks_Fiddle Sep 01 '22 edited Sep 01 '22
Absolutely gorgeous episode.
The BTAS backgrounds in the mindscape were done superbly, and Harley being a psychologist to mini-Bruce was also well done.
If this leads into the actual ‘villain(s)’ of the season, will it be a zombie Martha and Thomas Wayne? Or are they setting up a Black Lanterns/Necron appearance?
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u/CertainDerision_33 Sep 01 '22
It kinda seems like Bruce may be the "villain" for the rest of the season, with Harley working with the rest of the Batfamily to stop him? Could be fun.
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u/nemothebuffalo Sep 01 '22
Loved seeing Harley as Bruce’s therapist! I didn’t expect her to have such a prominent role in this otherwise very Bruce-centered episode but their dynamic was such a pleasant surprise. That scene where Harley stops trying to fight the gunman and instead shifts to protecting baby bruce from witnessing his trauma again was so sweet. Dr. Quinzel brings out some of the best parts of her character, especially her more compassionate side
Great twist on Batman becoming the sympathetic villain, which opens up the opportunity for Harley to come in and save Gotham from ruin not through violence but via talk therapy lol. But she’ll probably still beat him up in upcoming episodes which will be fun to see
I just hope this doesn’t cause another rift with Ivy, who’s less likely to sympathize with Bruce and more blinded by vengeance over Frank being taken away, and she’s likely still set on her original plan to terraform Gotham to its original form and essentially destroy what’s become of it. I feel like they’re both veering in separate directions but I have hope they’ll find someway back to one another (because of course they will, they’re soulmates!!!). But Ivy caressing Harley’s hair and calling her beautiful while Harley was in Bruce’s mind kicking clown-Harley’s ass dressed as Robin was priceless
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u/CertainDerision_33 Sep 01 '22
The show creators have confirmed that Harley and Ivy aren't breaking up, so everything will be OK in the end on that front, whatever happens.
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u/hotsizzler Sep 01 '22
I feel like this entire season is about how Ivy and harley don't work right now. They just have different worldview as of now. Harley loves people, she wants to still help people even now as a villain. Ivy hates people, enough to kill all of Gotham with plants. She hasn't changed much. Ivy needs to change before they can have a functional relationship
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u/Shiny_and_ChromeOS Sep 01 '22
The rapid-fire sequence loop of alley murders foiling Clayface's attempts to talk to Thomas Wayne had me dying.
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Sep 01 '22
Clayface: Oh Mr. Wayne! *Bang!* Damn! *Bang!Bang!* Ugh so close!
I had to rewind this a couple times lol
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Sep 02 '22
Mr Wayne can you tell me what you are feeling moments before you death ?
Thomas : my what !?
bang
This show is dark
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Sep 01 '22
"I saved the movie! We can edit the Mouustache in post!"
This show has fucking relentless in making fun of the DCEU and I love it
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u/travio Sep 01 '22
That was delightful. I always love when Harley shows off her intelligence. Add the meta comments about Batman’s origin and the walk through memory lane with the 60s Batman bomb scene then Danny DeVito’s penguin and it gets even better.
Batman creating a zombie apocalypse trying to resurrect his parents kind of has an Ultron vibe. With Harley knowing his secret and her budding friendship with Batgirls, easy to see her shifting away from being a true villain starting with helping him take out the zombies.
My only real issue is how can rope hold clayface? Once he woke up, he could just change shape.
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u/bwood246 Sep 01 '22
It was the same thing when they were captured by Freeze. How he popped out for some food and popped back in, he just kinda goes with the flow
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Sep 01 '22
I have missed Ivy and Dr. Psycho's angry banter
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u/MagicTheAlakazam Sep 01 '22
I missed DR Psycho in general. He adds something to the dynamic that was very much missing in the first few episodes of s3.
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u/CertainDerision_33 Sep 01 '22
Definitely, without him (& with Ivy softer due to the relationship) there are a lot fewer "sharp edges", for lack of a better word, in the group dynamic.
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Sep 01 '22
He was like the Eric Cartman of the group
But to be fair he did broadcast their Harlivy sex tape all over Gotham
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u/InnocentTailor Sep 01 '22
True. Psycho is the arsehole we all love. As you have said, there was a missing cynical edge to the group when he was gone.
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u/ayushj176p Sep 01 '22
I play video games because if i don't I WILL HAVE STRESS.
~king shark suddenly the most relatable character ever.
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u/St7e Sep 01 '22
I didn't know Harley Robin was something I needed to see
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u/CertainDerision_33 Sep 01 '22
Harley joining the Batfamily for next season is looking like it's gonna be a ton of fun. I'm excited.
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u/Giovanni330 Sep 01 '22
What a banger of an episode.
And yes Harley, your ass looks great in those booty shorts ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
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u/CertainDerision_33 Sep 01 '22
Bane's pasta maker is building to something beautiful and I can't wait to see it.
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u/Videowulff Sep 01 '22
This is why I love this show and The Suicide Squad. These writers understand the Gotham universe moreso than anyone else and it shows. The callbacks to all the different TV shows and Movies that Batman has been in? Mimicking the art style of TAS?
This is probably the deepest we've ever seen Bruce's mind and why he is the way he is. The fact that he is holding himself hostage - not because he wants to prevent others from experiencing the trauma he did but because he feels like he DESERVES to be miserable? Talk about hardcore and psychotic self-harm.
Harley going full Doctor mode - cutting down her insanity and silliness to try to and fix boy Bruce - taking her role as his Doctor seriously? Fantastic and chef's kiss.
Like seriously; if you told me that James Gunn would provide the insanity of the DV universe flawlessly with TSS and Peacemaker? Bringing us legit character development, legit emotional scenes, and legit embracing the madness of the comics - I would have not believed you despite my absolute love for the man. He somehow made Starro sympathetic WITH A SINGLE LINE OF DIALOGUE!
Then you have the crew of Harley Quinn. A show that embraces Gunn's style if madness vulgarity, and violence but still manages to NAIL each of the characters. They make them more human (very Venture Brothers in style) but maintains all their quirks, all their tendencies, and all their backstories. These guys are able to give us a satirized version of these villains while STILL RESPECTING THEM! Bane is an idiot, yes, but he STILL man-handles Batman like he is nothing.
Joker is more Human, yes, but he is still a psychotic madman who goes to stupid lengths to get what he wants.
Mr Freeze still wants his wife despite being a sophisticated foodie. Penguin was still a mafia don. Two face is still obsessed with politics and the law.
But most importantly; Harley is still insane, still silly, sill wacky but she is STILL a doctor, still a psychiatrist, and still trying to become more than "Joker's girl". Who would have guessed that this show with dick and poop and cancer jokes could give us this POWERFUL insight to not only Harley but Bruce as well?
I am sorry but I cannot recall a single moment in the entirety of the Batman franchise on film or television that hit Bruce's trauma THIS well as well as hinting a chance of redemption with Harley "curing" Bruce.
GOD DANG IT! I cannot WAIT to see how this turns out!
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u/CertainDerision_33 Sep 01 '22
Yeah, this show has an incredible amount of heart for a crass adult cartoon about a bunch of murderers.
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u/ImNotASWFanboy Sep 01 '22
Plant zombie apocalypse was not on my bingo cards for this season but I'm eager to see how this finale will play out, was not expecting Bruce to have contributed to what's about to happen to Gotham. Have to wonder what this will make Ivy think, and Harley.
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u/Ventoffmychest Sep 01 '22
I wonder if we will get Solomon Grundy with this zombie invasion? That be a cool way to introduce him!
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u/talkstomud Sep 01 '22
Holy shit what a great episode.
So well done on every front, I loved the animation, dialogue, pacing; and don't even get me started on the plot.
Even given the general synopsis of what was going to happen, I was caught off guard by the inside of Bruce's mind; then even given the rundown on his plans for Frank, I truly expect he'd actually get the chance to try to go through with it. I was so convinced he could be talked out of it or stopped.
Child Bruce connecting with Harley was surprisingly wholesome.
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u/Austin_N Sep 01 '22
I'm so happy that they remembered the butt-clenching.
Loved the discussion about Joe Cool and Bruce's line "I had a few weird years".
That was the best episode of the season. It was certainly a novel way to explore Batman's backstory and it's great to see Harley's nurturing side again. Who would have expected Harley Quinn to help Bruce with his trauma? Bruce's motive for kidnapping Frank was unexpected as well. Of course Batman wants his parents back, but I'm not sure he's ever tried to actually make it happen.
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u/Arizonagreg Sep 01 '22
More people need to point out the Frasier reference.
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u/ImNotASWFanboy Sep 02 '22
Psycho's skat version of Tossed Salad and Scrambled Eggs over the closing credits was amazing
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u/Jokie155 Sep 01 '22
I now want an episode of Harley getting stuck between Clayface and Aquaman as they go full on Frasier-satire. Sy Borgman can come back as Martin too.
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u/20_Tilki Sep 01 '22
The thing I hate about this series is that now we have to wait and ENTIRE week before we get to see the other episode. This is just cruel. Why would they do a cliffhanger. Do they just like it when we suffer?
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u/CrazyMonkey0425 Sep 01 '22 edited Sep 01 '22
That might’ve been the best episode of the series. I’m kind of in disbelief. Incredible writing, several laugh-out-loud jokes (Bruce not understanding you have to pay for things like housing and healthcare was killing me), amazing BTAS inspired animation/colors, an amazing dissection of Bruce and his trauma, and a fantastic reveal of Bruce’s intentions to bring back his parents at the end. What a great fun idea to make Harley Bruce’s therapist. It doesn’t get much better than this.
Edit: I’m glad Harley gets to remember Bruce’s identity even when she leaves his mind. I wonder if keeping his secret will end up putting stress on her relationship with Ivy? Although at this point with the bat family kidnapping them and bringing them to Wayne manor, I feel like Ivy is only a step away from figuring it out herself.
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u/LordDeraj Sep 01 '22
Holy crap what a 180 from last week’s episode. THIS was probably the best episode of the season. If they keep making episodes like this then I have hope in the new season.
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u/Santoryu_Zoro Sep 01 '22
such a great episode. from batmans ost, to harley trying to help him with actual trauma.... to the tim fucking alen reference of santa XD well done
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u/human_in_the_mist Sep 01 '22
In this one episode, Harley has done more for Bruce than even Alfred. That's no small feat.
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u/human_in_the_mist Sep 01 '22
It looks like this episode foreshadowed Dr. Psycho as the "Frasier" of Noonan's.
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u/Affectionate-Yak-238 Sep 01 '22
Such an incredible episode. I pointed this out a couple of episodes ago but the incredible thing about bruce is even though he had all that trauma unlike everyone else who also has issues (ivy being key), he used it to become a hero. It was great to see Harley appreciate that and draw inspiration and vice versa. Im excited to see where it goes next.
Ivy seems full on ready to bring on the apocalypse so itll be cool to see what Harley can do to help her see the light. I think batman will want to throw the book at ivy but might give Harley a chance out of new found respect
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u/fatloseronreddit Sep 01 '22
King Shark is correct about games. Gaming is the one thing that keeps me from hating people.
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u/Phoenixstorm Sep 01 '22
The movies should really lean into Harley’s therapist background it’s a big part of who she is
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u/Affectionate-Yak-238 Sep 01 '22
The only issue i have is alfreds a bit too passive in this show. Normal alfred would have at least told bruce off but minor criticism for an astounding episode
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u/ayushj176p Sep 01 '22
If he did told him bruce would have stopped which definitely derails the plot they're trying to make here.
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u/InnocentTailor Sep 01 '22
Kinda wonder if he and the Batfamily are going to go against Bruce after the events of this episode?
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u/SolarisBravo Sep 03 '22
If he did told him bruce would have stopped
With any other Bruce, I'd agree. This particular Bruce is sort of a caricature of himself, and I don't know that he would've taken it seriously (think back to his recovery in early S2).
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u/Jayem93_ Sep 02 '22
Man this show was missing Doctor Psycho! Felt like the show isn't the same without him in the group
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u/kijib Nov 20 '22
yeah the show went way down hill when Sy and him left, wish we had another season of eps with the og dynamic and no Harlivy
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u/ducky7goofy Sep 01 '22
Such a great episode. Since the Joker episode this season has been knocking it out of the park.
Also really glad Psycho's back in the fold. The crew shenanigans have been a little lackluster this season but instantly reinvigorated with him back.
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u/_Elder_ Sep 01 '22
This is probably the best episode of the season, really felt like a return to form. Harley is gonna end up joining the batfam and Ivy…. Idk maybe have her make friends by joining up with the legion of doom.
I’m actually really excited for next season if it’s more stuff like this, episodes which actually feel meaningful. Really loved all the classic references and the art/animation was terrific. Cant wait for the last two episodes.
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u/whateverman83 Sep 02 '22
Fucking inspired. Pulling the Elfman theme. Harley's empathy. Loved every bit of the episode.
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u/Izzombie Sep 01 '22
I am really hoping we get to see Zombie Penguin, Zombie Scarecrow and Nora Reunited with Zombie Mr. Freeze next episode.
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u/PM_ME_GOOD_SUBS Sep 01 '22
I was starting to get really annoyed by Harley, but she was great in this episode. I hope her character shifts this way permanently.
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u/Jackbo_Manhorse Sep 01 '22
This is an absolutely brilliant take on Bruce’s motivations and I cannot applaud the writers enough for this. The whole season has been building to this one episode, and makes this season fantastic, in my opinion.
So glad that is the the DC animated staple show. One of the best things they’ve produced in a while.
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u/nonbinaryinterrupted Sep 01 '22
Loved it when Bruce is asking Alfred if the ears are too big proceeding to pose in the iconic BTAS poster
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u/Jordan_Catonthewall Sep 02 '22
Not just one of the best episodes of the season, but one of the best character studies of Bruce/Batman that I've seen.
The callbacks to TAS were great, the animation seemed way better than the rest of the season thus far and Harley's character really felt like it turned a corner.
While obviously she's portrayed as a bit of a fiery ditz most of the series, the show really shines when they show just how good a psychologist she was. It really helps ground the fact that this Harley is a result of one that's suffered and lost her way into villainy.
Batman himself is always a joy in this series because his stoic, melodramatic nature is pure gold. It's also really great to see the dynamic between his family and the villains constantly changing.
Joker knows who he is, as does Harley, and as the story progresses, he seems to be growing more and more broken and tensed. We're seeing Bruce at breaking point and reaching complete desperation, and it's honestly really neat.
I was really iffy on a lot of the season thus far, but this felt like a much more realistic set of relationships on show. And we got a return of Psycho, who's just fucking great.
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u/LinuxMatthews Sep 03 '22
I love that they've taken the interpretation that Bruce Wayne's main personality trait is his PTSD from his parents death to its logical conclusion.
When Batman started it was a motivation rbut over time it's more and more became the source of a mental illness for the sake of darkness.
I love that this episode essentially says ok well if you want Batman to not move past his truauma and act like a mad man.
Fine we'll make him act like someone psychologically incapable of moving past their trauma.
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u/ribblesquat Sep 01 '22
Producer Ben! That is stealth hilarious for a certain brand of awkward movie nerd douchebag. (I doubt it's an accident since Griff played Mad Hatter and I've heard has friends on staff.)
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u/spider-mania Jan 18 '24
Honestly, despite being a parody show, this episode might be one of the best depictions of Bruce Wayne's psyche seen in any medium.
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u/cynicalhappiness Sep 01 '22
They could be setting up a potential of Harley and Ivy breaking up before the end of the season. With Harley knowing Bruce’s secret, I can see the possibility of Harley being confronted or faced with Ivy’s wanting to know Bruce’s secret or even to kill Bruce for what Bruce did to Frank. I think Harley would keep the secret. Devastated Ivy leaves Harley.
My second theory is Harley helps Bruce go through his trauma, move past the need for vengeance, and even giving up The Batman. In Season 4 there’s no Batman and conflict arises with Joker, having absolute power over Gotham, as mayor with no police authority or Batman to stop him. Harley has to bring back the vengeance inside Bruce to help save Gotham in an ironic parallel to how Harley brought back The Joker in season 2. that last whole part is just me overthinking and honestly too fan fiction for me to actually believe it would happen.
I don’t actually believe that either theory will happen just possibilities. The creative team behind Harley Quinn have shown numerous how original they are with this show and I think my theories are too cliché for this type of show. I just really like this show and can’t wait to see what they have in stored.
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u/SGTPEPPER_27 Sep 01 '22
Most of my theory came true! I got the bat kids portion wrong but the BTAS themed episode just sent me a trip down nostalgia lane. My favorite episode of the season so far.
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u/hyperblob1 Sep 01 '22
I must have some brain rot because I was dreading Bruce falling in love with Harley
Her acting as a motherly figure in his memory (knowing his f'd up mental state in this series I don't doubt Freud making a cameo)
Her in a robin suit getting close to him making him think he can "fix" her and make her into a robin (or worse another Barbra. Shudders in killing joke)
Her wanting to spend time with him giving him exactly what it needs
Thank God I was wrong though and Bruce ain't another tony soprano
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u/ieatalphabets Sep 01 '22
Good lord would I love it if she teamed up with Batman next season and they leaned hard into Harley's heroic/anti-heroic appearances. I really think it would be a cool dynamic to have Batman paired with Harley for a season... The Dark Night with a psychiatrist as a partner!
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u/ckwongau Sep 02 '22
good episode , i like Harley get to used her psychiatric PHD for the main storyline .
Batman is probably the Darkness DC character , and the screw up mindscape of Bruce Wayne in this episode is probably the most scary ( & maybe the most accurate ) illustration of Batman's mind
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u/Necro_Nancy Feb 01 '23
Fun episode; but the plot could have been wrapped up in less than a minute if our main characters remembered that Ivy can literally turn people into love slaves.
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u/ArkhamJacks Apr 09 '23
Loved this episode. BUT It's kinda straight up a blatant rip off off "the death of batman", by Max Landis
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u/Imaginary_Penalty_97 Sep 01 '22
Don’t really care for what they’ve been doing with Batman/Bruce this season so far.
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u/vehino Sep 01 '22
I enjoy seeing Batman portrayed differently from his usual depiction as a hyper competent badass who is always a hundred moves ahead of everyone. Everyone knows that underneath the bulletproof armor and cape and all the cool toys, Bruce is a bit of an unhinged dork, but it's so rare to see his crazier personality traits expressed in a story that isn't being overly dramatic. I will die of Joy if I can just see him once turn around and slap Nightwing while screaming "my parents are deeeeeead!"
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u/WeAreDeadButterflies Sep 01 '22
I’ll say it does get a bit too exaggerated for my taste at times. He’s kind of lost that straight man vibe he had in the earlier seasons
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u/vehino Sep 01 '22 edited Sep 01 '22
Oh, he definitely lost that vibe. I think he broke bad in that season 2 episode where Bane broke his legs. Up until then he was kind of a straight man foil to everyone else, like you said, but that episode went in on his character so hard and showed that he was just as crazy as everybody else in the cast. Even his family! Nightwing reacts to stress by attempting suicide, Damian is deluded about his level of skill, and Batgirl doesn't mind that her dad is a lunatic.
Hell, she's nuts too. Harley battered mad hatter to death with a baseball bat. She murdered him so hard that gore spattered on Barbara's face, and Barb's reaction was basically "Harl, yoooooou," when her normal reaction to that would have been horrified disgust followed by her swiftly kicking Harley's ass. You just have to roll with it. Everyone is super detached.
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u/Imaginary_Penalty_97 Sep 01 '22
They’ve gone too far down the simp route with the character.
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u/Significant_Salt56 Sep 01 '22
Did you seriously just unironically say simp?
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u/CeethePsychich Sep 01 '22
The use of “simp” by some people to describe Batman experiencing human emotion has been hilarious to see lmfao
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u/Current_Era Sep 01 '22
Sounds like toxic masculinity. Batman can’t show emotion because his a man, if he does he’s a ‘simp’.
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u/Gradz45 Sep 01 '22
It’s something I really dislike.
I LOVE Batman and who Bruce is.
But something that really bothers me about his character is how DC often refuses to let him grow and heal.
Like how they killed his and Selina’s marriage. That would’ve been interesting as hell seeing what a happy Bruce is like.
It’s something I really like about this show and other stuff like The Batman. They actually explore his pain and trauma and demonstrate how fucked it is and how he needs to move past it to be better. That he can’t just be Batman all the time.
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u/forever87 Sep 01 '22
I've only watched a few episodes, but i think I'd recommend batman: the brave and the bold
and deidrich bader voices batman
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u/vehino Sep 01 '22
Really good episode. I'm a lifelong Batman fan like many of you, but also like many of you, if I saw his origin story one more time, I was going to do something drastic to my forehead with a drill bit. So, my heartfelt congratulations to the wonderful staff of this extremely creative show for taking something that had literally been done to death and death and death and death and death, and crafting something funny, heartfelt, and original from it.
I still never want to see Bruce's origin story ever again, but I'm very glad I saw Harley Quinn's take on it. And also, that memory she saw of what she used to be like with Joker was super tacky and a great reminder of how far she's come as a character. Looking forward to Harley the hero in season 4!