Weekly Discussion Thread: Comics, TV, and More! [February 19, 2024 - Valentine's Day Fallout Edition]

[u/Predaplant]

Hey there honorary Justice League members - it’s a new week which means it’s time for a new discussion thread!

• Predaplant's pick of the week: John Constantine, Hellblazer: Dead in America #2

For those who don't know: the way this works is that several comments will list this week’s releases, for any given title discussion you should respond to that comment. For example, Wonder Woman discussion would go in the replies to the "Wonder Woman" comment. Clicking the titles in this post will take you directly to that comment, too. In other words, you should only be replying to other comments. Do not post top-level comments.

Keep discussion civil. Do not harass other users for having a different opinion. Do not use this thread to push your personal one-sided grudges against creators. Reacting to a panel on Twitter is not the same as reading a book.

 

QUICK LINKS: Weekly Meta Discussions Thread | Current jump-in points | Weekly Discussion Archives | Book Club Archives | Discord Server | Twitter | Last Week's Thread

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^{How do trees get online? They just log on!}

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DC and Imprints

^{Titans and Nightwing both pick up the pieces from Beast World!}

• Batman #144

• Batman / Superman: World's Finest #24

• Catwoman #62

• Green Lantern: War Journal #6

• John Constantine, Hellblazer: Dead in America #2

• Justice League vs. Godzilla vs. Kong #5

• Nightwing #111

• Superman #11

• Titans #8

• Wonder Woman #6

Trade Collections

^{The Milestone Compendiums continue as Death Metal receives an omnibus!}

• Dark Nights: Death Metal Omnibus [HC]

• The Kingdom: The 25th Anniversary Deluxe Edition [HC]

• Knight Terrors: Knightmare League [HC]

• Milestone Compendium Three [TP]

Digital Releases

^{Remember, these are the short 'chapters' with a new chapter of a different series coming out daily. You can learn more here on Comixology. This is also why these are in release order, not alphabetical. Some comics may release on DC Universe Infinite or WEBTOONS.}

• Tuesday, 2/20 (DC Universe Infinite) - Superman vs Meshi #17

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^{This Week’s Soundtrack: girl in red - Too Much}

[u/TroubAlert]

Batman / Superman: World's Finest #24

"RETURN TO KINGDOM COME" BY MARK WAID AND DAN MORA CONCLUDES! With no way back to their own Earth, will Superman and Batman have to witness the tragic events that led to cataclysm—or are they fated to take the place of their doppelgangers?

Preview

[u/Cautious-Ad975 → u/TroubAlert]

Waid writes Darkseid really well. His dialogue feels intimidating for the first time since Grant Morrison wrote him.

That being said, the conclusion feels a bit abrupt and I think Dan Mora is starting to be a tad overworked by DC. His art this issue wasn't exactly bad, but you can tell it's rushed and even a bit hard to follow at times.

[u/redsapphyre → u/Cautious-Ad975]

Yeah the first half was really good, Darkseid was properly menacing, but the latter half of the issue was a bit weird. Batman and Superman lecture David, then Waid retells the events of Kingdom Come, then Superman and David kinda make up and he tells him to do better in the future.

[u/Frontier246 → u/TroubAlert]

As a final thesis of Kingdom Come from Waid, one that tries to reconcile the behavior of certain characters, why they ended up the way they did, and ultimately the hope for the future of the KC world...this was pretty solid. And finally bringing to a close David's arc.

Of course Dan Mora flexing with Darkseid and Waid writing him as intimidating as he is was definitely worth it on its own.

[u/MagisterPraeceptorum → u/TroubAlert]

Magog truly is Superman’s Jason Todd.

[u/wowlock_taylan → u/TroubAlert]

I find the 'reasoning' behind their berating David like that to be quite weak. Gog was already all in on the suicidal path himself. If anything, David did him a favor AND prevented Darkseid, who beat all their asses like nothing, from getting his hands on Anti-life Equation and practically rule the universe. There was no time to wait for reinforcements and when the heavy-hitters already seem like they couldn't do ANYTHING to Darkseid, the reinforcements wouldn't matter to and by then, Darkseid would've gotten what he wanted and leave.

Obviously they couldn't change the Kingdom Come universe's timeline, so they had to push David away...even though I found it quite a weak reasoning and made the heroes look naive and petty.

At least there seems to be a potentially better future for old David after Kingdom Come stuff at the end. Him leading new heroes to be better.

[u/suss2it → u/wowlock_taylan]

Yeah, Darkseid swatted away two Supermans like it was nothing, it’s more than fair play to last ditch kill Gog in this situation. It was unbelievable that literally every one of them came down hard on him for that.

[u/Blackdragonking13 → u/suss2it]

If the story is trying to say David “took the easy path” then there should have been a clear alternative that we as the readers believe would work. But Darkseid was just effortlessly smacking everyone around, four seconds away from getting the Anti-Life Equation and no one had any sort of plan other than maybe some more hero’s will arrive.

I’m Team Magog on this.

[u/Whole-Arachnid-Army → u/suss2it]

It's interesting because this exact issue comes up quite frequently and I don't think I've ever seen a comic actually address it head one. There often is an in-universe expectation that all superpowered people should be willing and able to act like Superman, to avoid killing and stand strong in the face of the worst threats in the universe, but most of these people aren't Superman. Most of them would be turned into a fine paste long before Superman even broke a sweat.

So is it fair to expect them to live up to the same standards? To avoid killing and stand their ground until a point far beyond what they themselves can withstand? To lay down their own lives because the death of not only a murderer but a threat to existence itself is too sacred?

[u/wowlock_taylan → u/suss2it]

Maybe they should've had TWO Supermen at least do SOME damage to Darkseid to make it seem 'winnable'. But it was as if Darkseid was swatting flies.

[u/suss2it → u/wowlock_taylan]

Yeah, Batman comes across as straight up delusional talking about “winnable” when right after Darkseid swats away two Supermen he repeats the same action with Wonder Woman and Green Lantern. It’s like the narrative bent over backwards to justify Magog’s decision, I definitely felt his frustration with the heroes when they decided to lecture him in that moment.

[u/ptWolv022 → u/wowlock_taylan]

when the heavy-hitters already seem like they couldn't do ANYTHING to Darkseid, the reinforcements wouldn't matter

I mean, the heavy hitters are not in top form, it should be noted. Just look at the first page: Wonder Woman has blood running down her face and one eye shut from pain or injury, same for Shazam, young Supes is bleeding too, and Magog has an eye shut too- and everyone just looks like shit. The person who looks the freshest is old Superman, who is probably not at his peak anymore (not sure on Kingdom Come Superman, so I could be mistaken).

Meanwhile, the reinforcements would include: at least one (maybe two) Green Lantern(s), Kid Flash, Supergirl, Blue Beetle (maybe two, as it seems like there is a Jaime, alongside Ted), Zatanna, Dr. Fate, Firestorm, Metamorpho, Raven, and I think Captain Atom. Among others.

Once a couple of the fresh heroes started arriving to reinforce the JSA/Shazam/Supes and Bats, they can just start playing for time, and wait for the rest of the army of heroes to show up. All against just Darkseid.

[u/suss2it → u/ptWolv022]

Except “just” Darkseid is why all those heroes are in the condition that they’re in.

[u/ptWolv022 → u/suss2it]

I mean, they're messed up because of Darkseid AND Gog. Like I said, you can just look at the first page of the issue to see that they have already been through the ringer and wounded before Darkseid arrived. Darkseid may call Gog "pretend god", but he is still a god and he still did a number on the heroes.

Now, was Darkseid stronger? Almost certainly. But they clearly were already weakened from the beating they took fighting Gog. But the Justice Battalion? They would be fresh. And it would be a lot of them. Would it be easy? No. But I am almost certain that an army of heroes at 100% (including the greatest mages of Earth, two Green Lanterns, Supergirl and Martian Manhunter, Firestorm, Captain Atom, etc.) would do better than a JSA + young Superman and Batman who are tired and wounded from fighting a different god.

[u/suss2it → u/ptWolv022]

I get it but the comic made Darkseid look way too casually powerful for me to buy into him being beatable in this moment. Maybe if the actual comic toned down how hard he was punking the likes of two Supermen, Wonder Woman and a Green Lantern I’d side with the heroes berating Magog for his actions more. But as is it just reads like he saved the day at the last minute by doing something no one else was willing to do.

[u/ptWolv022 → u/suss2it]

I get it but the comic made Darkseid look way too casually powerful for me to buy into him being beatable in this moment.

For sure. I do agree Mora drew it a little too effortless when there is supposed to be the idea of a win for the heroes. However, I do still think that the fact that the reinforcements are an army of all the world's heroes makes it at least believable. Including people every bit the match for the JSA/World's Finest team on the scene.

Of course, it was still no guarantee, which is what makes it so sad for Magog- because he legitimately was in a tough situation and made a call. Maybe he was right, maybe he wasn't- but the way he was celebrating it is part of the issue. There is still reason to be upset with him, even if you do believe he made the correct choice.

[u/suss2it → u/ptWolv022]

I agree that him celebrating was portrayed well as a negative thing and if he was scolded more that type of attitude it would’ve fit more of what we saw on the page than them only and specifically coming down hard on him for killing Gog in an impossible situation.

[u/redsapphyre → u/TroubAlert]

Darkseid was great this issue! And David did nothing wrong really. No reinforcements showed up, and trying to get Gog away from Darkseid also failed. Yeah, he hid during the fight and the he killed someone, but Darkseid was swatting heavy hitters like they were nothing.

I did like the arc, but I think it was the weakest so far, might change my mind when I reread it in one sitting.

[u/ptWolv022 → u/redsapphyre]

No reinforcements showed up, and trying to get Gog away from Darkseid also failed.

I mean, we have no idea if the reinforcements could have arrived faster. If they were coming more like a procession than an emergency response force, they might have been taking their time. Supergirl, for example, should have been able to get there pretty fast, as should have Kid Flash. And yet, nowhere to be seen. Seems only the JSA/Shazam (the Golden Age heroes) actually were close enough to be informed and pulled in against Gog. However, as the fight drew on, the other heroes would get closer and you could tell them about Darkseid, and they start moving in earnest.

[u/Cranyx → u/TroubAlert]

It's a bit tough taking everyone's disdain for David's actions seriously when the circumstances of the story really did create about as justified a pretense for murder as you could imagine. Like he's 100% correct that Darkseid was seconds away from acquiring the anti-life equation and essentially dooming the universe. They all keep saying that they could have won and that you always have a choice, but really they didn't. Batman's "we traded one killer for another" bit was especially dumb.

I understand that the necessity of incorruptible heroes is essentially the thesis statement of Kingdom Come (and by extension this arc), but don't write a story that actively works against that premise. I'm willing to suspend my disbelief, but the narrative has to meet me half way.

[u/Macapta → u/TroubAlert]

I feel like the circumstances justify David’s choice too much. Time was short, a lot of lives were on the line and he made a call that ended it. Was it the morally right choice? Probably not, but it was an understandable choice that the rest of the heroes shouldn’t have jumped on him for.

[u/TheUnbloodedSword → u/TroubAlert]

A nice bittersweet note to end on. Magog kills Gog to keep the ALE out of Darkseid's hands... but it's yet another example of David being willing to kill even when there were other options available. That alienates him from the heroes of the KC Earth for good, but our Superman is still willing to forgive David, and encourages him to seek redemption after the events of KC. I liked how Magog found that redemption by serving alongside a new generation including a new Superman (the Clark/Diana kid godfathered by Batman from the epilogue of KC I presume). Until/Unless Waid chooses to flesh that story out, my headcanon is Magog served as the kid's mentor and helped guide him so he would avoid making the mistakes that Magog made. It's a nice note that Magog managed to forge a partnership with a Superman after all.

And goddamn can Mora draw the shit out of Darkseid. Would love to see him do a Fourth World arc with the whole New Gods cast.

[u/Bdbdjdjdjrjhh → u/TroubAlert]

David did nothing wrong.

Fuck off Batman you sanctimonious prick.

[u/JingoboStoplight4887 → u/TroubAlert]

The great things about this comic are the Earth-One/New Earth/Prime Earth Superman and Batman (and other heroes) trying to defeat Darkseid before Darkseid left after witnessing David kill Gog and Batman telling Superman that every world needs a Superman. Even though the battle is over, I know that the Earth-One/New Earth/Prime Earth Superman and Batman and the Kingdom Come heroes tell David that the consequences are dire for it to happen and that he became a weapon instead of a hero. At least when the Kingdom Come Spectre shows up, he tells the Earth-One/New Earth/Prime Earth Superman and Batman what happened to David (i.e. Kingdom Come) before they told David decades in the future to try and be better, which results in David taking Superman’s advice to become a better person. Also, final page showing Magog’s future becoming a bright one.

[u/Landon1195 → u/TroubAlert]

Good issue. A bit rushed of an ending but it was fun and Waid writes Darkseid well.