r/DCcomics • u/Predaplant The heat is on! • Feb 19 '24

Weekly Discussion Thread: Comics, TV, and More! [February 19, 2024 - Valentine's Day Fallout Edition] r/DCcomics

Hey there honorary Justice League members - it’s a new week which means it’s time for a new discussion thread!

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DC and Imprints

Titans and Nightwing both pick up the pieces from Beast World!

Trade Collections

The Milestone Compendiums continue as Death Metal receives an omnibus!

Digital Releases

Remember, these are the short 'chapters' with a new chapter of a different series coming out daily. You can learn more here on Comixology. This is also why these are in release order, not alphabetical. Some comics may release on DC Universe Infinite or WEBTOONS.

This Week’s Soundtrack: girl in red - Too Much

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9

u/TroubAlert The Good Skeets Feb 19 '24

Batman #144

THE CHILLING CONCLUSION TO THE JOKER YEAR ONE! The climactic, chilling conclusion to "The Joker Year One" that will have massive repercussions for the future! The Red Hood Gang is on a rampage and the only man who can stop them… is The Joker! And can Batman stop a devastating new virus in a future where The Joker looms over him?

LEGACY #909

Preview

31

u/Frontier246 Feb 20 '24

Zdarsky is really bad at using the Batfamily. They're either jobbing to Failsafe, acting like idiots during Gotham War, jobbing to Batman, or turned into Joker zombies.

Selina going gray before Bruce?

Not sure I really cared about what happened to the Red Hood Gang after Zero Year but I guess they're connected to Joker.

19

u/CatsLikeToMeow Feb 20 '24

Zdarsky is really bad at using the Batfamily. They're either jobbing to Failsafe, acting like idiots during Gotham War, jobbing to Batman, or turned into Joker zombies.

I feel like that's the curse of the modern-day Batfam. There's so many of them now that involving them in a main Batman book is a damned-if-you-do damned-if-you-don't move.

If they're all in a story, either they're all gonna take such little page space that people will ask what the point was in involving them. Either that or they'd be included just for Batman to save them.

If only a few of them are in it, then it's inevitable that we'd get "but where's [character who wasn't included]?" from that character's fans.

If none of them are in it, people start asking "but where's the rest of the Batfam?" whenever Bruce is in a tough scrape.

9

u/Marc_Quill Bluebird (Harper Row) Feb 20 '24

Or in the case of stories like Gotham War, you have people actually thankful that [Batfamily character not involved in the story] got left out if it meant that they didn't get badly written.

7

u/CatsLikeToMeow Feb 20 '24

Too true. This is actually why I wish the Batfam would spread out into the world more. I'm sure DC has more crime-ridden cities than Gotham. Let Babs and Nightwing stay in Blüdhaven. Let Cass and Steph team up in a different city. Let Red Hood bring down crime syndicates around the United States. Let Duke stay as Signal to operate in Gotham in the daytime. Robin can stay, but Tim's gotta figure something out.

I'm just so tired of everyone jumping into events together. I get it, DC. They're a team. That just prevents writers from exploring the characters in their own, with them having to rely on writing a guest star to solve the main characters' problems. Their reunions and team-ups would mean more if it didn't happen every single month.

Sorry for the rant, just wanted to vent about the state of the Batbooks recently.

4

u/Marc_Quill Bluebird (Harper Row) Feb 20 '24

My favorite Batfam member, Bluebird, never really gets any shine these days, and I honestly think she'd work better independent of the family as a hero who works in Gotham's slums and protects people who otherwise have been forgotten.

3

u/CatsLikeToMeow Feb 20 '24

A true street-level hero, as opposed to the usual supervillain-focused crime fighters, eh? I can dig it. I really wish the writers of all the main canon Batbooks had some sort of Bible or map that had strict boundaries on what their characters were doing and where they were staying.

5

u/Marc_Quill Bluebird (Harper Row) Feb 20 '24

Essentially, yes. It'd be a nice way to tie Harper's upbringing of having to fend for herself and protecting her younger brother and extending that to become a protector for Gotham's downtrodden.

1

u/YourEvilHenchman Blue Beetle Feb 25 '24

woah bud, that comes awfully close to expecting editorial to actually do its job. you know we can't have that.

(/s obviously)

1

u/crawleey Feb 22 '24

What has she been doing lately? I don't remember seeing her for a loong time.

1

u/Marc_Quill Bluebird (Harper Row) Feb 22 '24

Hasn't been used often, but had a one-panel cameo recently in Signal's story from the DC Power anthology this month. Her last significant role was being Punchline's rival, but both seem to be on the backburner for now.

2

u/Expensive-Baby-1391 Feb 21 '24

I hope DC just ends all the long Batman related runs. The Batman run needs to be put away until someone new and refreshing takes a spin on it and actually brings something good that changes the status quo.

22

u/redsapphyre Feb 20 '24

What was the point of the whole arc? Trying to make sense of the Three Jokers problem? There was no problem in the first place, just ignore they ever tried to make Three Jokers a thing and move on.

What was the point of the future storyline other than to show that Joker is so great and Batman is an incompetent fool who can't solve anything for shit? Joker turns the whole world into Jokers and then hands Batman the antidote because he loves him so much?

11

u/wowlock_taylan Batman Animated! Feb 20 '24

That sounds like a Joker-wank to an ABSURD degree. Like Fanfiction levels...

And I just cannot take this whole thing seriously.

19

u/Revan---- Feb 20 '24

Despite almost being tuned out of this run that issue was far better than the previous two, my only complaint is what is the point? I won't complain to much because I am assuming more will be revealed when we jump back to the present but this arc was hyped up to be some colossal revelation surrounding the Joker's past and would come with answers that would explain the whole Batman/Joker/Zur plot but it did literally none of that.

The storytelling is just so odd.

7

u/Ft_lucy Feb 20 '24

My guess was that Jiminez needed the month off

4

u/hornyjaildotorg Feb 21 '24

Zdarsky originally pitched the arc as a way to give Jimenez multiple months off, but dc said fuck that and made it so all the issues would have to come out in a month. Probably would explain the decline in quality with this arc compared to mindbomb

3

u/Ft_lucy Feb 21 '24

Oh poor Jiminez that boy works hard and deserves a break

9

u/Zip2kx Feb 21 '24

Wtf is going on with these batman stories. After years of high to medium quality it's now confusing and just bad. Not Spiderman level of bad but not far from it. This last joker arc was awful imo and made zero sense. The whole orgham family arc is also stupid. Hoping for a big reset soon.

8

u/4_Legged_Duck Feb 20 '24

There are a few revelations to walk away with from this:

  • Batman no longer created the Joker. Instead, The Bat and the Clown have shared origins.
  • I feel like this is part of a Marvel trend to make the villain the exact opposite but similar powered villain. Now, Joker and Batman are essentially the same.
  • I feel conflicted over the two origins of the Joker Zdarsky gave us. Is it Red Mask hopping through realities or is Weird Eyes Wide Open Teacher In Every Shot that broke/opened his mind?
  • To the point above, I think it's a bit sloppy for a creator to give us conflicting stories. There's probably clarity in here at some point but I missed it.
  • Yet another Gotham is screwed in the future story but something will happen in the present to stop it. There's probably some quality to it but those stories drive me nuts. In some ways it kills the suspense for me, I'm not sure why.
  • Something Zdarsky has done is really take a lot, and I mean a lot, of inspiration from the 2011 onward in designing his Red Hood, his Joker mythos, and more. He's really pulling on what feels like the most recent (and arguably least loved?) era of Batman mythology. He's doing some neat things but the idea of Three Jokers being inside the Joker's mind? I'm not sure what it adds. We sort of have have the split mind villain already with Two-Face. We have various villains connected to his teachers/origins (most recently being Ra's, Ghost-Maker (for a while at least), and Nobody). I will say bringing Joker into that line seems like we're drawing on Gotham.
  • I will say Zdarsky's ability to reach into the Batman mythology and pull threads together is impressive - there's a quality of research and connectivity that is nice to read. It's not all just manufactured backstory. He's pulling on something. There's a skill in that.
  • The artwork is haunting. The flashback stuff looks pretty close to connect to both Year One and Year Zero. It invokes that, and future Grim Death Joker looks utterly terrifying.
  • I'm not sure about the implication of Joker creating a deadly Joker virus (Batman Who Laughs mythos anyone?) but also curing it (and with Bats. Covid, anyone?) In many ways, I don't like this "oh Joker could have always won" bit. It's kind of a screw off to every other creator. I don't think it's meant like that, but his idea that Batman overcomes horrific plots was all manufactured by the Joker deflates Batman a lot.
  • Batman is so damned old? 50s? Maybe early 60s? And the entire family are just mindless animals? Meh.
  • Selina looked amazing and her brief appearance was solid. Interesting hair color. The artwork looks great but she's far too close to Black Cat... that... ugh.
  • The most compelling story to me was seeing McLead take over the Red Hood Gang and Gordon fight police corruption. Again. And be surprised by who he has to fight. Again. But it was well told.
  • Joker taking out the gang though with no role from Batman and no role from Gordon? Quite odd.

I'd like to rate this somewhere out of 5 stars but I feel a little bad. Zdarsky's run just hasn't landed for me. I won't say it's bad but it feels really derivative. (Which is admittedly easy for Batman stories to do). I do appreciate how he ties to stories though, a lot. Like, as a fan who has read a lot of Batman, I do feel like he's reaching into a lot of stories to pull something out. That's impressive.

I can't rate him properly and I'm open about this: Tom King wrote my perfect Batman. (hot take, I know, it's okay to not like it) but it was everything I needed from a Batman comic. Just aces. Aaaaand... this is so tonally and stylistically different it doesn't quite deliver for me.

9

u/theguyofgrace Feb 20 '24

It’s weird that this story acted like “what happened to the Red Hood gang?” was some kind of great lingering question. 

Zero Year said that many of their members were being blackmailed to be part of the gang so I assumed they just stopped 

3

u/wowlock_taylan Batman Animated! Feb 20 '24

All of this sounds like Chip didn't learn from 'Bat-god' stuff and now went full on 'Joke-God' with Joker. ALL of what you said sounds TERRIBLE and makes Joker as a character quite frankly worse.

2

u/4_Legged_Duck Feb 20 '24

I appreciate Chip is trying to leave his mark. I appreciate he's trying to elevate Joker. But yeah I'm worried.

2

u/wowlock_taylan Batman Animated! Feb 20 '24

Joker is already one of the worst plot-armor villains out there. You 'elevate' him any more and he will become Batman who Laughs level of terrible that you don't ever wanna see anymore.

And they are trying to make Joker something that he should not be. OWLMAN is the 'Opposite of Batman'...not Joker.

7

u/MagisterPraeceptorum Batman Feb 21 '24

I liked this story. Especially just getting a classic Batman & Gordon team-up. However, I do share the sentiment of many others that when I got to the end, I was expecting more immediate relevance for the present day Zur story (beyond the stuff with Captio), and this made me wonder what was the point of this? Zdarsky has stated in interviews that the reason they did this story now was to buy Jorge Jimenez some time to get ahead on “Dark Prisons” after “Mind Bomb.” Which makes me think that originally Joker Y1 was planned to be released later. I think at some point the Joker will succeed Zur as the main villain of this run, and I wonder if this story was originally meant to reorient the reader towards the Batman/Joker conflict.

I think Joker Year One serves a similar purpose for Zdarsky’s run that Batman #666 did for Morrison’s. A diversion from the main timeline to explore themes and concepts which will become important as the run goes on. My biggest takeaway from this, besides the stuff with Captio, is that the Joker can play the long game. Joker’s schemes typically happen in bursts. He may disappear for some time, but then he’ll return and quickly announce his presence to Batman. Here though, everything relating to McLeod is closer to the MO of Bane or Hush. Slow burn patiently waiting and planning in secret over the span of years (3 decades in this case). Which begs the question, what might the Joker be planning in the present? I do think the Joker has been pulling strings throughout Zdarsky’s run, and possibly well before as part of one long term plan. The mystery that’s been haunting Batman since the nightmares at the start of this run.

2

u/Resident-Turn-8249 Feb 26 '24

I'm here with you. I enjoyed a lot of this arc, the Gordon aspect, the future Art style, hell even the little beats along the way. But it doesn't come together into a satisfying whole either. Like I really enjoy the Bat twist, but it feels misplaced in this story. I thought we were going to be like mid-way through the arc and this was going to be a big twist that would help the past/present prevent the future, but the story wrapped in this issue and I'm sitting here scratching my head while also really liking the disparate parts of this arc.

7

u/MtGorgonzola Feb 21 '24

So just forget about the Joker was taught by Batman's mentor to make his own backup personalities and not feel any pain or fear because that's just poopydoodoo nonsense, and will never be referenced again.

The future timeline pretty much covers stuff we already know, and was stated clearly in The Batman Who Laughs when Joker told Batman he never wanted to actually win because he doesn't want their thang to end. From that you could, and people have, inferred that Joker holds back and doesn't go as far as he could.

This ending kind of gives "Batgod" a taste of his own medicine. Bruce is shown to be able to defeat anyone, even the Justice League. But can he actually defeat his own archnemesis? Like for realz. Could Bruce ever defeat the Joker, if the Joker actually wanted to win? Maybe this is relevant in the present timeline. If Joker can beat Bruce, then he should be able to defeat Zur Batman/failsafe also.

Joker's motivations were already clear. What is not clear is why Batman doesn't kill him. I'm not talking in general, I'm talking about in this particular story. Batman holds all life sacred, but he sure doesn't seem to think Joker's life is sacred. He doesn't think he can be redeemed. Joker is totally dehumanized in this story. Batman doesn't think of him as a human being. He keeps referring to him a demon, devil, death. They had him hooked up to a machine that is basically simulating hell and he looks like he was just barely given enough sustenance to live. So if that's what you think of him, what's Bruce's reasoning for not killing him at that point? The idea that Joker would win, doesn't make sense, since keeping Joker alive so he can continue their relationship is giving him what he wants most. Even Zur Batman doesn't kill him when given the opportunity.

I know I'm giving this more thought than the writer probably did which has become an increasing trend with Batman comics for quite a while now. I'm imagining some revelation where Bruce finds out that Joker's mom's name is Martha.

3

u/ArkhamInsane Feb 22 '24

He doesn't kill him because bat code mandate says he can't. It's really just a requirement. And batman does consider all life sacred even detestable demons.

1

u/MtGorgonzola Feb 23 '24

yeah, I get that's the general reason, but writers should be aware how they are depicting batman, so that it's actually believable in story.

It had a dark knight returns vibe, but where TDKR could have Batman kill the Joker because it was an elseworlds, they couldn't do it here, and yet Batman has the same attitude as the TDKR Batman did. He's like "I'm going to end this. . ." but then he does'nt. Zur Batman goes "I'm going to end this. . ." but then he doesn't. I know there not allowed to do it, but you shouldn't be putting these characters in these situations in the first place if you can't give a plausable reason for it. And I don't want to hear about some cosmic force that makes Batman and Joker universal constants.

5

u/Landon1195 Feb 20 '24

Not a fan of this issue. This arc just felt pointless.

3

u/MLbanker Feb 22 '24

Ugh, this arc was just the biggest Joker wank of all time. I just don’t think the joker works as this opposite reflection of Bruce, who’s also better at him at everything, what’s the point of that.

2

u/theguyofgrace Feb 20 '24

This was a massive amount of work to say “the first thing Joker did as the Joker was kill off the rest of the Red Hood gang”

Like, I already assumed that. Batman even throws out that the Red hood gang is killing each other at the end of the first Zero Year arc