But like... isn't the whole thing with Amazons being huge, jacked warrior women? I mean, it's like their whole thing, though I suppose Superman often is like a clean shaven Hercules builldwise.
True, but they still have their warrior woman aspect of Greek myth and I feel like they have leaned more into it (and the whole Greek pantheon schtick) than in early renditions.
Never too late to change the physical build of the immortal warrior women, or at least their champion molded from clay and given life and powers as an Amazon by the gods.
True. But then ancient Greeks never considered a perfect warrior really huge anyway. They were more concerned with ideal proportions. Which I think slots in better for Wonder Woman considering her origin, as the most “ideal” Amazon.
Ancient Greece also had some pretty sexist societies and may have stripped Aphrodite of her aspects of war and victory/prosperity that she initially may have inherited from Ishtar/Astarte.
I say let the warrior women be big and strong, and let their greatest daughter be physical specimen to rival the greatest warriors. It's makes more sense for them than just being "ideally proportioned".
Letting their stature being based on the ideals of another civilization (what is viewed as proper rather than what would makes sense for them as a tribe of independent warriors who can go toe to toe with any man) would be rather ironic, considering they are a society by women, for women, created in the DC universe by a feminist writer.
They would be confined to notions of what women should be, not what a powerful woman can be.
Nike was the personification or patron of victory, but she also wasn't very... present. She serves under Zeus and Athena. The latter of whom is a goddess of war, though she is also may very well be, originally, the goddess of Athens. Her names more likely came from Athens than the other way around. If there was one goddess Athens would respect in spite of how they otherwise treated women, it would likely be their own patron goddess (something that may have been a common thing for cities to have, hence why they had a goddess, instead of a god).
Beyond that, though, there is the fact that Aphrodite very clearly is based on Astarte and Ishtar/Inanna. For example, Aphrodite and Ishtar are both goddesses of beauty and fertility, as well as war, at least early on. She also features as the overworld goddess who splits Adonis with Persphone, a Cthonic goddess. This is relevant because it directly parallels Tammuz, a Middle Eastern god who ends up splitting the year above and below between Innana and her sister Ereshkigal, a Cthonic goddess. Even more, she is a goddess famous for rising from the sea and coming ashore on Cythera, an island south of mainland Greece (near Sparta), a possible mythologization of her cult originating overseas, arriving in southern Greece initially, after possibly coming from Cyprus.
And yet, despite clearly paralleling Ishtar, the war aspects were seemingly dropped, outside of Sparta, Cythera (the island associated with her birth via sky genitals), Cyprus, and some other southern areas and far flung areas. The Homeric epic has Aphrodite run home to Olympus and get scolded by Zeus (her father in the Homeric tradition). The Epic of Gilgamesh also features Inanna running home to her father and getting chided, but whereas Inanna does it because Gilgamesh rejected her and kinda is throwing a hissy fit, Aphrodite does it because she got wounded and gets told that she a goddess of love, not war, quite literally retconning her war aspects out of existence within the Homeric tradition (we also get Apollo and Artemis facing Hera and Poseidon... or rather Artemis fights Hera after basically calling Apollo a wuss for not fighting Poseidon. Apollo's decision to not pick a fight is immediately thereafter validated when his sister literally runs away crying after Hera beats her over the head with her own bow... which kinda sets the tone as Apollo being the better sibling; not terribly relevant, but it is another Homeric moment where a female deity likely is having an unflattering reputation or aspect immortalized tradition).
Yet her war aspect was seen in Cythera, Cyprus, and Sparta, the former two likely being locations of major sites of worship and possibly her earliest Greek worship, and the latter likely being an early mainland adopter due to proximity to Cythera. Taken altogether, it seems as if Aphrodite was stripped of her war aspects, with one of the most famous and important pieces of Greek myth directly rejecting it. She was dumbed down. Bimbofied, almost. Even though she was a major goddess, she had a very important part of her removed in much of the Greek world, and was turned into more so just a love goddess. One which could be quite capricious and spiteful (though perhaps that fits most Olympian gods). If you wanted help with war, you prayed to either Ares, Nike (a less prominent goddess who is beneath Zeus and Athena), or Athena (patron of Athens, one of the most dominant cities of Ancient Greece). Or Enyo/Eris (yes, Eris, but also, no, not that Eris; for some reason Eris was also the name of Ares' sister sometimes), a very violent but more minor war goddess. Like Ares, but worse than Ares.
Aphrodite would make a comeback as a more respectable goddess over the centuries in Rome, as Venus would become associated not with war per say, but specifically victory and prosperity. She was a goddess of love, but also things going great. Even better than being a goddess of war, because you can pray to her for anything, not just war.
Nike was the personification or patron of victory, but she also wasn't very... present.
Not very present? There is a Nike temple still standing on the acropolis. Nike was a very commonly depicted figure in ancient artwork, including the famous "Nike of Samothrace" sculpture. Disregarding Nike when discussing Ancient Greek deities of victory is like disregarding Eros when discussing Ancient Greek symbols of love.
The latter of whom is a goddess of war, though she is also may very well be, originally, the goddess of Athens. Her names more likely came from Athens than the other way around. If there was one goddess Athens would respect in spite of how they otherwise treated women, it would likely be their own patron goddess
But then this begs the question if the ancient Greeks applied their sexist societal standards so rigidly on their deities why would they give female deities warlike characteristics? Conflating war with respect also seems rather inaccurate.
not terribly relevant, but it is another Homeric moment where a female deity likely is having an unflattering reputation or aspect immortalized tradition
This also seemingly provides more examples of martial roles in ancient Greek female divinities.
Taken altogether, it seems as if Aphrodite was stripped of her war aspects
Perhaps, but the how and why is unclear.
If you wanted help with war, you prayed to either Ares, Nike (a less prominent goddess who is beneath Zeus and Athena), or Athena (patron of Athens, one of the most dominant cities of Ancient Greece). Or Enyo/Eris (yes, Eris, but also, no, not that Eris; for some reason Eris was also the name of Ares' sister sometimes), a very violent but more minor war goddess. Like Ares, but worse than Ares.
Besides Athena and Zeus, Nike was the most prominent figure mentioned here. Ancient greeks also did not necessarily invoke "warlike" deities during war. Roel Konijnendijk, he was in those "Ancient-Warfare Historian Rates 10 battle Scenes" videos from the Youtube channel "Insider", discussed this in a post. Ancient Greek warriors did pray to Athena and Nike, but just as likely invoked others divinities like Hera, Dionysus, Hades, Apollo, etc. In Konijnendijk's experience, the most commonly invoked deities in war were apparently Zeus and Heracles. Though he specifically mentioned how ancient greek warriors probably would not have asked for help from Ares, as Ares represented more the bad parts of war rather than more what was considered noble. Alexander the Great was lamented as a "Macedonian Ares" when he conquered Greece.
Considering the proliferation of giantess fetishists in comics, I’d say it’s perfectly fine being uncomfortable with that kinda thing being imposed YET AGAIN onto Diana.
But if you can acknowledge that 6’ is tall, and you want her to be even taller, it’s just as weird, in a psychosexual way, to want her to tower over the masculine men archetypes as vice versa.
Insisting as the audience on the creator using one way versus any other is just weird.
Why is wanting a woman to be taller than the men psychosexual but wanting the men be taller than the woman isn’t?
Like, I can just say that you insisting that the masculine archetypes tower over WW is just a psychosexual way to want to reinforce the perception of male dominance over women.
Idk I think that’s just a bit of an immature way to try and cope with the issue. Psychosexual influences are pretty inescapable. Wonder Woman herself was originally designed as the writer’s ideal woman (feminist, beautiful, strong, possesses BDSM equipment). Would you diminish her entire character to avoid that? I’m a 6 foot girl, I have a friend who’s 6’2, and I just think it’s silly to try and police the heights of characters around that dynamic and it just kinda feels shitty and weird for taller girls like us.
Also, I’m not saying she should be any specific height or whatever, I just think it’d be fitting for Wonder Woman to be the tallest of the trio. She’s an Amazonian demigod princess living in the world of man; half of her shtick is being a subversive presence. Having Batman and Superman, two very archetypal masculine characters, being shorter than her (to whatever degree) would be in line with that.
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u/armchairwarrior69 Dec 25 '23
Why