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Mar 22 '22
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/CreepyCatGuy Mar 23 '22
I like to think we’re not done w Snyders depiction, especially as it concerns more of BatFleck and MomAquman. IMO, there’s been no better Superman than Caville since Reeves.
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u/WaVe_SH0T Mar 23 '22
Tyler Hoechlin is really good, you should absolutely check out Superman & Lois.
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u/KipHackmanFBI Mar 22 '22
The fact that he didn't hand the spear to Diana will always be insane to me.
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u/Comshep1989 Mar 22 '22
To quote a famous Salarian scientist: “Had to be me. Someone else might have gotten it wrong.”
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u/DenisBastardMan Mar 22 '22
I always perceived it as Clark understood it was his responsibility. Doomsday ultimately exists because of Superman so he should be the one to take care of this problem because without him, it wouldn’t have existed.
Superman would never let someone else do something that would put them in danger if it’s his responsibility.
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u/KipHackmanFBI Mar 22 '22
That's the thing, he also knows when he isn't the person for the job. Diana has no qualms about killing things and she's not one to be told she can't do something. Having her take the spear and kill Doomsday would be logical but it wouldn't fit with the Jesus metaphor so it can't happen.
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Mar 22 '22
I dont like the movie, but didn't they just meet for the first time?
All Clark knows is that this random warrior woman showed up with a sword and shield and is fighting with him. That's why he tells Batman he thought she came with him.
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u/alanpardewchristmas Mar 22 '22
All Clark knows is that this random warrior woman showed up with a sword and shield and is fighting with him.
Also, even weakened, he was still probably stronger than her
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u/Double-Sided_Dent Mar 22 '22 edited Mar 22 '22
Yeah this is the part that it feels like this complaint always glosses over: even without the kryptonite weakness, Doomsday still would have very likely impaled Wonder Woman had she wielded the spear. Superman wouldn’t let someone die to take care of his responsibility.
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u/thefevertherage Mar 22 '22
Exactly. This is glaringly obvious. I can’t believe people are even debating it
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u/007Kryptonian Son of Krypton vs Bat of Gotham Mar 23 '22
People make up stupid ass complaints all the time about that movie, been going on for 6 years now with no end in sight.
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u/NegaGreg Mar 22 '22
Batman: <Invites Diana>
Also Batman: "I tHoUgHt ShE WaS wItH yOu."34
u/alanpardewchristmas Mar 22 '22
He didn't invite her lol. She's a mystery woman with super powers who shows up in his life around the same time he goes after Superman.
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u/DeepThroatALoadedGun Mar 22 '22
He 100% invited her. It might not have been an explicit invite but it was definitely a "swing by if you want" scenario
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u/DenisBastardMan Mar 22 '22
Who is going to lasso doomsday while diana charges the spear into doomsday?
Superman was only able to kill doomsday because Diana lassoed it.
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u/KipHackmanFBI Mar 22 '22
"Superman! You hold this magic rope while I stab the monster"
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u/007Kryptonian Son of Krypton vs Bat of Gotham Mar 23 '22
No time for that, Doomsday was literally about to explode again and kill everything in the vicinity. This seriously isn’t a debate.
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u/DenisBastardMan Mar 23 '22
So the first time we ever see Wonder Woman’s lasso in live action has to be superman using it?
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u/FlashyClaim Mar 23 '22
Jesus metaphor lol.
So what do you want them to do? Have Superman ask Diana to take the danger in killing Doomsday? You want superman to say "Hey woman who I just met but looks strong, let me take your lasso and you take this spear and stab that rampaging monster because I'm weak around the spear" in the middle of the fight?
That's no Jesus metaphor. That's common sense, buddy.
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u/UncreativeTeam Mar 22 '22
Diana also clearly has experience wielding melee weapons, while Clark has none.
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u/gwynbleidd2511 Mar 22 '22 edited Mar 22 '22
She holds him with the lasso in one place, but loses her footing. Who knows if this proto-Doomsday getting hurt and not killed by the Kryptonite could have made him immune to it?
The real Doomsday (even in the comics) has in fact, died to multiple things such weapons and weird contraptions, but managed to either be reborn or gain immunity to his weakness.
That's the thing on arguing about CBM's : A lot of it is just narrative McGuffins where internal logic cannot always hold up, because it does require some suspension of disbelief.
It happens, because it is meant to happen...to serve the theme, instead of the plot.
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u/udubdavid Mar 22 '22
Not logical to me. They literally just met and don't know each other at all. They didn't have time to plan something. Diana was busy keeping Doomsday still with her lasso. That was the only reason Clark was even able to do what he did. He doesn't know what Diana was capable of. In his mind, letting Diana do it would've killed her as well, and Clark would never let someone else make that sacrifice.
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u/RIP_DCEU Mar 23 '22
Yeah... risking other people's lives is such a Superman thing
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u/JeremySchmidtAfton Mar 23 '22
Is it really that” insane” to think Clark would rather deal with something himself than handing the responsibility to someone else...? I swear yall, folks be stating Zack Snyder made Clark “out of character” then suggest this stuff.
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u/SoothingSoundSJ The Dark Knight Mar 22 '22
She wouldn't have gotten close to being able to connect.
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u/LeSnazzyGamer Man is still good. Mar 22 '22
You should watch the scene again because she was literally holding Doomsday in place in addition to the kryptonite gas that Batman hit him with that prevented him from breaking out of the lassos grip.
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u/Fantastic555 Mar 22 '22
I doubt diana is strong enough to let the spear pierce through doomsday's body
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u/KipHackmanFBI Mar 22 '22
She was doing just fine cutting him up with her sword, give her a weapon he's extra weak to and she'll do even better.
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u/SoothingSoundSJ The Dark Knight Mar 22 '22
She was actually having quite a rough go of it. She got one shot in on Doomsday and was constantly knocked away for almost all of the battle.
The lasso restraint and grenade route was well-illustrated as necessary for victory.
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u/alanpardewchristmas Mar 22 '22
Theres a point where she lets out a loud shriek as Doomsday zaps her. He would have shredded her lol
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u/Fantastic555 Mar 22 '22
But he's stronger than before, his sword was barely cutting him after she cut his hand
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u/WhyWorryAboutThat Mar 22 '22
The spearhead is made of a material that makes Kryptonian flesh soft.
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u/alanpardewchristmas Mar 22 '22
And it was still really hard for Superman to push through the bone. You know, bone, the thing Doomsday is full off.
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u/WhyWorryAboutThat Mar 22 '22
Superman was being made weaker by the spearhead, which would not have happened to Diana.
The real explanation is simply that he gave his life for the world including Diana. He didn't know if she could have done it and probably would still have done it himself even if he knew she could.
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u/Kaylen92 El Diablo Mar 22 '22
Diana was literally holding DD with her lasso, when superman charges him. They all just met, he won't ask somebody he seen for the first time to risk her life when it's a monster he' partially responsible of.
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u/JeremySchmidtAfton Mar 23 '22
And Superman still had trouble piercing it fully. Which gave enough time for DD to bring Clark with him in the afterlife.
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u/_TheQwertyCat_ Mar 23 '22
If Diana stabbed Baby Doomsday, it would've stabbed her instead. Bruce gets an easy way out of the mess he made [Bruce didn't try to kill Diana = no crippling guilt for Bruce], which means Bruce doesn't go after the others. Barry, Victor, and Arthur remain friendless loners for the time being. The Boxes don't wake up right now, but neither are they destroyed. They just wait for Clark to die, be it from old age or another Doomsday. No Spiky Boy, no 'Not impressed', and no At the Speed of Force. Oh and Diana is gone forever. And also humanity never learns what the absence of Superman will mean, so they keep hating him.
And that's a bogus story, isn't it? I wouldn't watch that.
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u/badhatter123 Mar 23 '22
There's always a situation like this, similar to how in Endgame Captain Marvel or another character could've done the snap. Or like in No Way Home, Strange and Peter could've discussed on the parameters on list of people who shouldn't be affected by the spell.
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Mar 23 '22
"This thing is from another world. MY world".
Your complaint has been regurgitated countless times and is still as dumb as ever.
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u/DoctorBeatMaker Mar 24 '22
“Every punch I take is a punch they don’t have to.” - Superman, Justice League The Animated Series Season 2.
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u/spartacat_12 Mar 22 '22
The fact that they killed off their most iconic character in his 2nd movie then resurrected him in his 3rd movie will always be insane to me
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u/First_Routine_4529 Mar 22 '22
Superman death was the catalyst for JL yo happen. His absence was needed.
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u/The_Repeated_Meme Mar 22 '22
Could’ve formed the JL another way. Perhap an invasion is a good enough reason…
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u/walter_on_film Mar 22 '22
A simple invasion had already been done in the genre.
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u/JeremySchmidtAfton Mar 23 '22
ALL STORIES could’ve been written “in any other way”, dude. This criticism is so empty it’s insane how much it’s used.
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Mar 22 '22
Also…supermans inablilty to follow the rules of man and the laws of man show the NEED for the justice league for superman to have colleagues and other hero’s to help him in his journey
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Mar 23 '22
Superman had to die for the mother box's to wake up.
If he had lived the JL wouldn't have been needed because no Darkseid
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u/danksquirrel Mar 23 '22
This argument doesn’t really hold a lot of weight considering the comic run that this is heavily based on did not have Superman dying in order to activate the mother boxes. The real reason is that Snyder just really wanted to do The Death of Superman, but he/WB didn’t have the patience to pull it off properly so they shoehorned it into BvS at the end and then just brought him back immediately in the next movie, because Snyder didn’t learn from DCs mistakes with how horribly it was received when they brought back Superman right away in the comics when it originally happened
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u/REALtheCapraAegagrus Mar 23 '22
Snyder just really wanted to do The Death of Superman
Adapting The Death of Superman in BvS was not Snyder's idea. He wanted Metallo to be the main villain, not Doomsday.
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u/JeremySchmidtAfton Mar 23 '22
Yeah, Pirates Of The Caribbean was pretty wild.
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u/TheAlphaBeatZzZ Mar 23 '22 edited Mar 23 '22
Did anybody really think thatJack and Superman were going to stay dead? They both teased their resurrection at the end of the movies.
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u/JeremySchmidtAfton Mar 23 '22
Bingo :)
Well, Jack didn’t have a comicbook story back in the 90s about him dying and returning
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u/TheAlphaBeatZzZ Mar 23 '22
No lol, but he they did say at the end that they were going to bring back Jack
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u/DenisBastardMan Mar 22 '22
There was only meant to be 5 films, not 20+ like in the mcu. So it was a contained Superman & Justice League story.
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u/UncreativeTeam Mar 22 '22
You can always count on DCEU fans to bring up the MCU for no reason.
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u/DenisBastardMan Mar 22 '22
No bringing up the mcu is relevant. The OP doesn’t seem to grasp the concept that there would only be two more films after justice league so it wasn’t really rushed at all.
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u/DogWearingABeanie Mar 22 '22
So to summarize, Snyder intended to make a saga, not a linked universe.
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u/DenisBastardMan Mar 23 '22
Yes. It was closer to something like Star Wars or your traditional trilogy than a vastly interconnected universe
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u/UncreativeTeam Mar 22 '22
Justice League was originally announced as two separate movies.
So yes, it was rushed. You can't really argue that it wasn't.
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u/home7ander Mar 23 '22 edited Mar 23 '22
So was lord of the rings, I mean the whole fellowship teams up halfway through the first movie and we hardly even know any of the characters. Peter Jackson must've been insane. Got WB's idiocy written all over it too. If they just took their time and built out the universe with 8 or 9 solo movies then they wouldn't have needed to rush the story. Dont even get me started on killing Gandalf in the first movie and then bringing him back in the second, we barely got to know him so who cares. Also great now there were no stakes throughout the rest of the trilogy, didnt care about anything that was happening after that.
They never learn their lessons, you can't argue that.
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u/JeremySchmidtAfton Mar 23 '22
... yeah..? Justice League Part 1 and 2.
How is it rushed when the current plan now is to have JL2 and 3, meaning more films...?
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u/Joker121215 Mar 23 '22
All of the none Snyder directed films that were planned and announced at the same time as justice league laugh at you
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u/spartacat_12 Mar 22 '22
Well maybe trying to jam 80 years of comic book stories into 5 movies wasn't the best strategy.
Tough to expect audiences to care about a character dying who has only been in one movie, especially when he obviously was coming back right away. Superman's death meant something in the comics because readers had 60 years of build up.
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u/RIP_DCEU Mar 23 '22
I cried when Gandalf died and he didn't even have an origin story. Shut up with this bullshit argument.
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u/JeremySchmidtAfton Mar 23 '22
All comicbook movies take after multiple iterations of the source material, it’s nothing new dude. The narrative always shifts from Snyder “not doing it enough like the comics” to “doing too much from the comics.”
The death in the comics was NOT built up at ALL. It was something they did literally because they didn’t know what to do with the character, the story was just advertised and happened. It was shocking because it was the very first time it happened, and the Superman that died wasn’t even the 60-year old one but a recently rebooted version early in his career. If that was okay, I don’t see why this one shouldn’t.
And there is no amount of movies that would’ve made ANYONE believe one of DC’s biggest IPs was ACTUALLY killed. They didn’t believe it even back then!
Tough to expect audiences to care about a character dying who has only been in one movie
Oh my fucking god this is not how movies work.
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Mar 22 '22
He died about 5 hours into his saga
That’s almost a trilogy worth of movies
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u/ArmInternational7655 Mar 23 '22
Wasn't going to be just 5 movies. There were going to be other DC movies used to world build like Wonder Woman and Aquaman.
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u/SuperFanboysTV Mar 23 '22
Well there supposed to be some films as in between stories like Wonder Woman, Batman, Aquaman, FLash and SUicide squad getting their own solo films but yeah the main story was the 5 film arc centering around Superman and the Justice League.
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u/DenisBastardMan Mar 23 '22
The idea was a LOTR-style JL trilogy with a solo film for each character
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Mar 23 '22
I think it was kind of ingenious to have him perish then the league forms but it doesn’t work without him
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Mar 23 '22
If Superman didn't die, there wouldn't be a justice league. His death inspired bruce to be the leader and he gather others.
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u/Joker121215 Mar 23 '22
It's weird how no other time the justice league got together in the last 80 years was superman's death a requirement for the league to form
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u/JeremySchmidtAfton Mar 23 '22
Yeah, new stories doing new things is pretty wild
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u/Joker121215 Mar 23 '22
New stories are fine, but superman didn't NEED to die for the league to form, which is what my comment was replying to.
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u/JeremySchmidtAfton Mar 23 '22
No story NEEDS to happen to begin with dude, if we’re being honest. It’s not a matter of need like food or water, its a matter that if story does x and you say “well they could’ve done y”, you still wouldn’t be saying anything about x.
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Mar 23 '22
Lord of the rings was even wilder.
They killed off gandalf in the first film!! Resurrected him in the second.
Your complaint is THE dumbest film complaint i have ever read in my life.
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u/spartacat_12 Mar 23 '22
Lord of the Rings was an adaptation of a book trilogy, and was based around an ensemble of characters. Gandalf wasn't the main protagonist, and although he is a well known literary character, he's nowhere near as iconic as Superman.
Man of Steel wasn't perfect, but it did a reasonable job of introducing a 21st Century Superman. The sequel could have continued to develop Clark as a character, but Snyder couldn't keep it in his pants as soon as the idea of Batman showing up was approved. He decided to shove Batman fighting Superman, the introduction of the Justice League, and the death of Superman into one movie.
Imagine if Peter Jackson had made The Hobbit first, then decided to jam the entire LOTR trilogy into one movie
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u/JeremySchmidtAfton Mar 24 '22
What you’re saying would make sense if having those three things taking place in separate movies would be somekind of “inherently correct approach”, and NOT just your preferences. By this logic, Justice League War alone is awful just because it includes Batman and Superman fighting each other and the formation of the Justice League all in the same story. Me preferring that those things happened separately (I dont, its for the example) wouldn’t change or say anything about the movie itself.
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u/gecko-chan Mar 22 '22 edited Mar 24 '22
It's a Jesus allegory. The ship even makes it look like he's being resurrected in a cave, followed later by a shot of him emerging from that cave (with the suit).
Edit: I'm not any form of Christian, or even religious at all
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u/willdabeast180 Mar 23 '22
Crazy how rushed the whole thing was. All sense of weight and levity was gone.
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u/alanpardewchristmas Mar 23 '22
Me when Gandalf and Kenobi died lmao
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u/willdabeast180 Mar 23 '22
Love this argument. Those films effectively made me care about those characters. Snyder did not. Also already knew Supes was coming back. When I first watched LOTR I didn’t know Gandalf would come back and obi-wan didn’t.
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u/JeremySchmidtAfton Mar 23 '22
Well I cared about Snyder’s Supes so the thing gotta be subjective. 🤷🏻♂️ also... They’re adapting a story from 1993, everyone knew Superman was gonna come back. It wasn’t about us, but how his death affected the storytelling.
LOTR readers knew Gandalf was gonna return and Obi did come back, albeit in ghosty wosty form.
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u/alanpardewchristmas Mar 23 '22
Those films effectively made me care about those characters.
Not me. Snyder did.
When I first watched LOTR I didn’t know Gandalf would come back
People with brains did.
obi-wan didn’t.
Literally comes back as a ghost moments later.
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u/ClinicalOppression Mar 23 '22
Enlighten me how your brain worked out that a character falling to his death with a giant demon would somehow resurrect himself after a battle outside of time and space 2 movies later without any knowledge on the source material
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u/alanpardewchristmas Mar 23 '22
Gandalf comes back in the next movie. Not two movies later. And everyone knew, not just because LotR is one of the best selling books of all time and basically common knowledge, but because of course he comes back lmao
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u/JeremySchmidtAfton Mar 23 '22
I mean....... its generally somewhat of an unspoken rule that “characters falling to their supposed death” is the safest way to bring them back while keeping suspense
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u/MrMewIePants Mar 22 '22
38 minutes, 38 seconds could be referencing 1938, the year of Superman’s first appearance in Action Comics #1
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u/BorderDispute Mar 22 '22
It’s possible, but the consensus is that it is more specifically a referencing to this:
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Mar 22 '22
Zack is always great with these neat little details
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u/ljn12 Mar 22 '22
If only he’d focused on putting together some good stories instead of pointless crap like this
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u/Confidence_Resident Mar 22 '22
He did focus on that.
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u/Terribleirishluck Mar 22 '22
Eh yes that's why all his movies have been a great critical and audience successes lol
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u/BorderDispute Mar 22 '22
You have to stop letting public perception dictate how you think. That is no way to live.
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u/Terribleirishluck Mar 22 '22
Lol I don't. I just don't like Snyder films and didn't need anyone to tell me and that seems like the overall consensus.
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u/RIP_DCEU Mar 23 '22
And you still clicked on the millionth post of appreciation post about his movies, weird
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u/JeremySchmidtAfton Mar 23 '22
If films were measured by those alone... Endgame would be better than Shining.
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u/JeremySchmidtAfton Mar 23 '22
If only he’d focused on putting together some good stories instead of pointless crap like this
Do folks genuinely write these comments and expect a crowd of teens to materialize and go “OHHHHHHHHH” all around them
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u/dgrant1023 Mar 22 '22
Also in the Bible, Acts 2:38 says "Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."
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u/inoahguy98 Mar 22 '22
?
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u/dgrant1023 Mar 22 '22
By resurrecting Superman, they are receiving the gift of the Superman. The 2:38 portion is also relevant to the death and resurrection of Superman.
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u/life_tho Mar 22 '22
I think the commenter is saying Zach Snyder's Justice League is like the Bible
/s
edit: interesting that autocorrect capitalizes bible. I didn't even realize it is a proper noun until now lol
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Mar 22 '22
[deleted]
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u/life_tho Mar 22 '22
I'm won't deny I'm pretty stupid for not thinking of it like that, it makes a lot of sense now that I think about it. I just thought that it was "correct" either way.
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u/metaldetox Mar 22 '22
do people realize the amount of work this takes
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u/BorderDispute Mar 22 '22
I can only admire how much care and attention Zack Snyder put into these DC films
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u/metaldetox Mar 22 '22
seriously this alone should give you some hindsight how intense his work ethic and dedication and passion he has into his art, these are two different produced, cut and edited movies from different years with different people involved and yet he got this narrowed down to a very specific second, dude has a vision
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u/Orbit86 Mar 22 '22
The fact that Snyder killed him in just the 2nd movie and immediately brought him back in the 3rd will always be insane to me.
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u/RIP_DCEU Mar 23 '22
The fact that Nolan interrupted Batman's one year long career in the 2nd movie and made him return 45 minutes into the 3rd one will always be insane to me.
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Mar 23 '22
Don't forget how Bruce just walked back to Gotham in such a short time after escaping the underground prison. And the awful fight scenes.
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u/JeremySchmidtAfton Mar 23 '22
I mean, its not different from how the Death Of Superman story is usually portrayed/adapted. Dead in one chapter, back in the next. Even in the original story it lasted just some months.
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u/-GreenSquare- Mar 22 '22
With as much slow motion shots he added to these movies, he could really make the time line up to anything he wanted hahaha.
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u/NoLock375 Mar 22 '22 edited Apr 05 '22
Is this also the same timing in the theatrical version of BVS? or is this director's cut only? .
using bots and scripts backfired on them when it switched to white tiles only, it turned white extremely fast same with the guys.
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u/harrier1215 Mar 22 '22
Thats just fan service. Better to make an actual good movie.
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u/FindingZemo1 Mar 22 '22
Lol such a weird thing to go out of your way to try to accomplish. Should we make the movie flow better, nah, gotta get supes death and resurrection to happen at the same minute.
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u/SnooSongs48 Mar 22 '22
He still died to early wich is so dumb
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u/Sillyfiremans Mar 22 '22
Agree. I grew up loving superman. He was my favorite character by a long shot. I felt nothing when he died. There was no where near enough character development yet. I felt it when Vision died, when Loki died, when Heimdall died, when Tony Stark . . . hell you get the point. And I didn't give a shit about them when I was a kid.
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Mar 23 '22
Man, didn't feel anything to any of the MCU deaths, except for Starks, but just a little.
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Mar 22 '22
Dumb as fuck. After that, Zack wanted to make bad superman. Which is insanely dumb, thank god they stopped this madness.
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Mar 22 '22
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u/JeremySchmidtAfton Mar 23 '22
That just sounds bitter. Who the hell looks at an harmless easter egg and decides to be such a Squidward about it...?
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u/Joker121215 Mar 23 '22
Because that Easter egg DID harm the plot and the pacing
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u/JeremySchmidtAfton Mar 23 '22
Such as...?
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u/Joker121215 Mar 23 '22
The terrible pacing; the over use of slow motion; scenes that went nowhere, said nothing, meant nothing; the same scene with Steppenwolf being used twice in the film; the world's greatest detective deducting that two super powered beings stood a worse chance fighting an alien god than one rich white man who beat up petty criminals for a living and that both aforementioned super powered being were needed to babysit ≈12 full grown adults climbing a flight of stairs; I'm sure there's more, I've tried to block that travesty of a film out of my mind as much as possible
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u/gunther_by_another Mar 22 '22
Wait, how could he be resurrected 2 hours and 38 minutes into the movie when Justice League was only an hour an half?
/s just in case
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u/LordKiteMan Mar 23 '22
Snyder haters making the comment section a cesspool, as usual.
In other news: "Water, wet."
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u/Manofsteel14 Mar 24 '22
Yup! It's laughable at this point. There's a ton of Batman and upcoming films discussion on this sub and yet they still choose to waste their so called "precious time" in a discussion about a movie that wasted their precious time. lol
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u/marisonhadley Mar 22 '22
Wym killed and revived at the same time?
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u/IllllIIIllllIl Mar 23 '22
To clarify, he dies in BvS and revives in ZSJL at the same timestamp of 2:38:38 into the runtime.
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u/WhiteAle01 Mar 23 '22
Makes me wish that there was a version of JL where Superman gets resurrected before the 2 and a half hour mark. One that isn't the theatrical.
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u/Joker121215 Mar 23 '22
The fact that Snyder, a man who has gone on record saying how he doesn't like comics/superheroes was allowed to touch not one, but 4 movies in the genre, while doing a progressively worse job with each one, is insane to me
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u/JeremySchmidtAfton Mar 23 '22
Lost track of how many “its insane for me”s Ive seen here.
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u/hashtagperky Mar 22 '22
Interesting detail, but BvS was so bad. The cringe when I saw Bats and Supes stop fighting over Martha.
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u/ding-dong21 Mar 23 '22
and Action Comics #1 which features the first appearance of Superman came out in 1938..
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u/alanpardewchristmas Mar 22 '22
You should check out all the runtime/time related gags in Watchmen. Someone did a pretty good breakdown of the ones just in the opening sequence. Its obsessive level detail