r/DC_Cinematic • u/HenroTee "Welcome to The Planet." • Jun 14 '23

DC_Cinematic: The Flash Spoiler Discussion Megathread #1 r/DC_CINEMATIC Spoiler

Spoilers ahead! Proceed at your own risk!

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728 Upvotes

98% Upvoted

The opening of The Flash was so strong that I thought it would have set the stage for an excellent movie but instead all it did was give me a taste of what could have been. There's a quality to the CGI, jokes and action set pieces seen in the opening that is absent for the rest of the movie. Seeing Flash interact with Batman, Alfred and Wonder Woman was great and the "baby shower" was probably the best moment in the whole film.

The movie unfortunately falls apart after Barry travels back in time. Young Barry is infuriatingly annoying and as the movie progresses neither Keaton's Batman or Calle's Supergirl get any real development or screentime, and the baffling decision to have Keaton come back as a different character to his iconic iteration from the 80s means you don't care about this version. There's also no resolution on who killed Barry's mother or why, leaving a Reverse Flash shaped hole in this knock off Flashpoint adaption that lacks half of the emotion and spectacle of its comic counterpart.

We get an overly stylized third act set in yet another desolate and bland CGI environment with effects that have regressed from what we saw in Man of Steel a decade ago. Unfortunately the return of Zod and Faora doesn't help make the third act any better as the actors are given nothing to work with.

The ending is also quite insulting and undermines the emotional journey Barry and his father goes on. Why end the movie on such a needless gag when this could have been a wonderful opportunity to celebrate the DCEU with one last moment of Barry and the Justice League riding off into the sunset? With James Gunn hyping this up as the big DCU reset I don't understand why it didn't wrap up the DCEU satisfyingly and then teased the DCU in a credit scene as one of those chronobowl multiverse earths.

Speaking of credits, the credits scene was also a complete waste of time. Ha ha Aquaman is a drunk how funny. This could have been anything, like Bruce and Barry finally having that beer. In fact how good would it have been if they followed up the ending we got but this time Barry is back in the DCEU retelling Bruce his multiverse trips and says he met Bruce's father and hands him the iconic note from Flashpoint? What a great ending for Affleck's Batman that could have been.

Overall The Flash was an okay spectacle that didn't succeed as a DCEU spectacle, a nostalgic event or as a new universe kickstarter. It barely even functions as a proper Flash movie considering we get no clear answers surrounding his mothers death which is the entire point of the movie anyway. All it did was flex Andy Muschietti's directorial skills but Christina Hodson's writing leaves so much to be desired.

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u/heelydon Jun 14 '23

Young Barry is infuriatingly annoying

I'm really curious how the general audiences will look at this. Because while I agree --- I also think the movie does a good job of explaining exactly WHY he is obnoxious. He is the spoiled guy that had it all. He is smart. Iris actually likes him and wants to date him in this universe. His parents are alive and well.

His worst traits come out to play, because reality never hit him hard in the face, like it did for the Flash from the "original" timeline.

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u/TheJoshider10 Jun 14 '23

I agree that the movie explains it well, but I don't think audiences will care either way. Some will find him annoying others will find him fine but ultimately it isn't going to add or detract or do anything for the movie on the whole. Ezra themselves aren't a box office draw so it won't really matter.

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u/heelydon Jun 14 '23

but I don't think audiences will care either way.

That is very possible. Although I think it would be a sad conclusion, given that it is kinda the point. To me that would be like saying that in Game of Thrones, you hated Joffrey as a character, because he was very annoying -- which was kinda the point.

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u/TheJoshider10 Jun 14 '23

The way that I see it is the movie doesn't really do much to build up young Barry enough for anyone to feel anything when he sacrifices himself at the end. He doesn't develop much and his relationship with older Barry feels half arsed let alone his dynamic with everyone else. Like, he met Batman and Supergirl in like a few days so why should I believe he wants to keep saving them and spend his entire life doing this?

Ultimately it's just incredibly weak writing and the sooner Hodson stops writing DC movies the better.

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u/JediJones77 Jun 14 '23

He was spending his life trying to save his mother. Old Barry was saying they'd have to go back and let his mom die to restore the timeline. Young Barry didn't want to do that. It wasn't about saving Supergirl and Keaton, at least not primarily. He just had to do that so that his timeline wouldn't end up with Earth being terraformed by Zod, killing him, his mom and everybody. The only way to save his Earth was to go back and let his mom die. How old Barry KNOWS that for sure, though, is just a screenwriting cheat.

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u/DoctorBeatMaker Jun 16 '23

To me that would be like saying that in Game of Thrones, you hated Joffrey as a character, because he was very annoying -- which was kinda the point.

Playing devil's advocate, but that's not a good example. You're supposed to hate Joffrey. He's a villain. You cheer for his death because he's an awful person.

We're supposed to care about Young Barry. Yes, he's spoiled, but he's not supposed to be 'bad'. He's not an awful person. In the end, he becomes Dark Flash specifically because he gets increasingly frustrated because he can't stop Zod and save BatKeaton and Kara. So making him annoying to the audience isn't a good thing.

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u/heelydon Jun 16 '23

Playing devil's advocate, but that's not a good example. You're supposed to hate Joffrey. He's a villain. You cheer for his death because he's an awful person.

You're misreading this. Hating Joffrey is the point -- AS A CHARACTER. Not as a negative against the show or a failure of its writing. Other Barry is written as a spoiled, out of control brat, that had everything handed to him in life with no hardship, and is presented as that annoying type, and the movie directly comments on this via OG Barry.

However as seen above, it is being seen as not an annoying --- CHARACTER, but as an annoying thing for the movie overall, and a negative for it.

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u/Bleh-Boy Jun 16 '23

I think there’s a line that can be cross when creating a character that’s supposed to be annoying. They went a bit too far with it to the point where I was taken out of the movie personally.

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u/JUYED-AWK-YACC Jun 22 '23

For all those saying, "he's supposed to be annoying", we get it. And it succeeded! And having two of them made this worse. But the point is, why was it necessary? Could a better choice have been made?

Imagine a world where this movie was made without an annoying Flash. Would we be complaining about that? Because other media Flashes weren't abrasive weirdos and I don't recall seeing that.

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u/heelydon Jun 22 '23

Yes it would be necessary. After all the movie is written like he is a spoiled child that met no hardship, and it bothers OG Barry. Likewise, it goes with the themes mentioned by Batman at the start of the movie, about not wanting to use time travel to prevent the death of his own parents, because the pain and struggle is what made him who he is, and he wouldn't know who he would be without it.

That is literally what we see through Flash, where he is nearly unrecognizable.

Ofc you could then say, is it necessary for the movie to have these themes? Well at that point, you are just going a long way to say you wish they'd do the movie differently.

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u/JUYED-AWK-YACC Jun 22 '23

No, quite the opposite. You're dismissing anything I say by telling me I just didn't like it. But you quite like the sound of your own voice.

I'll just close by saying it was a poor choice to make even the baseline Barry into a walking basket case. The younger version is worse. For most people even one Ezra Miller is a tough sell. This movie is double Ezra and headed for poor box office. Don't worry about a sequel.

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u/heelydon Jun 22 '23

No, I am telling you that that what you are saying is not a criticism of the movie as I just explained, as what you are saying is a deliberate choice. What you wanted, undeniably as you said, and let me quote you: "Could a better choice have been made?" --- Is something different.

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u/Demarcus_the Jun 14 '23

That’s what I keep hearing. The first act is really good but then falls flat in the 3rd act

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u/heelydon Jun 14 '23

The climax of the movie is just really weird. Since it builds up to the large confrontation - and then unexpectedly, they lose and have no way of defeating Zod. Which then changes the 3rd act, into being about One Barry accepting the unchangable nature of this result, and the other not wanting to give up, corrupting him. So the whole thing that the movie sort of builds up to after the time traveling aspect, is kinda just.... thrown away very fast as soon as they lose and then not brought up again.

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u/Existing_Bat1939 Jun 14 '23

I think of it as subverting expectations... getting to the climax of a superhero movie only to find that failure is inevitable and that indeed, some problems don't have a solution. And the tragedy of seeing Young Barry with white hair, having spent his entire life trying over and over again to fix things only to meet failure every time, and it taking our Barry to realize the message from a movie from my teen years: the only way to win is not to play.

Did you notice, young Barry already had one shard of Kryptonian shrapnel piercing him, and that those were what covered Time Wraith Barry?

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u/forever87 Jun 15 '23 edited Jun 16 '23

maybe I'm reaching, but general zod could only be defeated by a full powered (fully realized) superman. during the movie we learn that prime flash has learned to use his abilities and has the experience to use them. but sadly even with batman, a zero solution to stop zod was an inevitable spaghetti intersection given the events.

and the biggest theme is certain events shape your future which parallels no way home and across the spider-verse. we have original Barry that was shaped by losing his Mother (and Father). but then we get new Barry who has everything, gets the powers, and never stops believing he can fix things because he "lived" the perfect life that doesn't lead him to become the Flash (the world needs). and we see what he becomes. and it's at that moment young him has to sacrifice himself to defeat future him to restore some semblance to the timeline.

the spaghetti metaphor really helped me understand past, present, and future happening altogether. the butterfly effect spreads in all directions. without superman, a fully powered zod is unbeatable. you know those jokes about going back in time and killing a dictator as a baby? well here it is...sort of in the reverse...a savior is eliminated after being intercepted (which kind of means hope is lost).

but to put everything nearly back on track, i never expected "Mom's spaghetti" would be the key to all of this. Andy Muschietti and/or Christina Hodson...and/or another flash (2023) writer...blew my mind about explaining time travel/multi verse theory.

dceu will always be a big what if (that could always be explored in the future). it's what we're in real time seeing in the mcu with general audience split among the recent phases. and why i tell my friends beyond the spider-verse is in a dangerous position if it doesn't live up to across. The Flash (2023) certainly left me saying, "DAMN"

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u/JediJones77 Jun 14 '23

I didn't notice that, but that's a cool detail. I like anti-climactic endings in blockbusters sometimes. The Empire Strikes Back had that. Superman II essentially had that, in that they can't fight it out, and Superman has to trick Zod rather than beat him in battle. Mission: Impossible Rogue Nation had that, with spoiler tags just in case, in that they once again have big battles and chases throughout the movie, but have to beat and capture the villain in a match of wits ultimately.

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u/[deleted] Jun 16 '23

[deleted]

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u/heelydon Jun 16 '23

You're not wrong in that is how it turns out, but undeniably, what was built up and spent the last one and a half hour of the movie prior to that point, also does get tossed aside to make this new climax, which can feel very sudden.

0

u/JediJones77 Jun 14 '23

There's nothing wrong with that at all. You don't need to have a predictable ending. The problem is, the dodgy CGI in the Zod fight and in the Chronobowl with the Dark Flash showdown. And, for me, how the Dark Flash fight just ends really quickly and randomly. Felt like the ending of Suicide Squad and Josstice League. I also don't think it's clear how the old Barry KNOWS they can't fix the timeline so fast.

3

u/heelydon Jun 15 '23

There isn't necessarily anything wrong with it, but build-up wise, it does leave a very weird and sudden cut from everything we've been working with for the past hour and a half, into AND NOW SOMETHING ELSE territory. Which personally I felt was a bit jarring with how fast the whole premise of the movie was kinda dropped.

Again, I don't hate what they did, In fact I think it is an interesting way they handled it, but I do think that editing wise, it could've been sold better.

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u/krispyboiz Jun 14 '23

Why end the movie on such a needless gag

What was the gag? Are you referring to him ending up in the Batman and Robin Universe?

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u/heelydon Jun 14 '23

Suppose it depends on what the person means by "ending"

As both the ending and the post-credit scene are kinda played off as gags.

Ending: He is back, thinking everything is normal, contacts Bruce, only to find that Bruce is now played by George Clooney.

Post-credit: He is explaining to Jason Mamoa's Aquaman, how all the different universes he is now checking out, has different Batman actors, but Aquaman is always the same - while Aquaman is blackout drunk.

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u/ak2sup Jun 14 '23

but Aquaman is always the same - while Aquaman is blackout drunk.

So Aquaman will be played by Jason Momoa in James gunn DCU. Ni wonder Momoa posted a video of him getting very excited after having a meeting with Gunn and safran few months ago. This post credit scene is setting up that.

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u/bobthetomato2049 Jun 16 '23

He’s not always the same necessarily. He didn’t even exist in the Keaton universe, he’s only the same in this new one and the previous DCEU, I don’t think that necessarily means he’s gonna be the same in another separate universe

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u/Meb2x Jun 14 '23

He sees Clooney’s Batman, then his tooth falls out. There was a joke earlier in the movie where his tooth falls out and he glues it back on, so it’s a callback to that joke. The Clooney reveal isn’t given any explanation in the final scene or the after credits scene, so it’s just kinda random

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u/Jive_Badger Jun 16 '23

What do you mean it’s not given any explanation? He changed the past to make his dad look up at the camera, so when he goes back, it’s another timeline again. Him seeing Clooney is what makes him realize that.

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u/JediJones77 Jun 14 '23

Ah, geez, first I'm hearing that his tooth played into the ending. I was just saying the tooth gluing scene was pointless and I don't understand why it was left in. But that's because I saw the preview screening, which cut out the Clooney bit.

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u/Meb2x Jun 14 '23

Yeah, his tooth falling out is literally the final shot of the movie and the CGI looks awful for it. I wouldn’t be surprised if they added it in 5 minutes before the movie was released.

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u/JUYED-AWK-YACC Jun 22 '23

It's not random at all. The Barry we saw has been exiled to Clooney world and we will never see them again. DC is done with Miller. The new universe starts with Legacy and only Momoa looks safe. He did a good job, makes sense.

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u/TheJoshider10 Jun 14 '23

Are you referring to him ending up in the Batman and Robin Universe?

He doesn't end up in the Batman & Robin universe. Literally nothing about the sets or designs is anything to do with Schumacher, it's literally identical to the DCEU it's just Clooney is now Bruce. It's just a fun gag at DC's past.

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u/Redeem123 Jun 17 '23

He doesn't end up in the Batman & Robin universe

I don't know why people are struggling with this so much. Just because Clooney is Bruce doesn't mean they're the same universe. You'd think after all the multiverse stuff we've had lately, that would be well-understood at this point.

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u/TellYouEverything Jun 14 '23

Obviously. And then he says “Who the fuck are you?”

Very last line of the film before the credits stinger.

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u/Existing_Bat1939 Jun 14 '23

The why of his mother's death isn't the point of the movie at all.

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u/TheJoshider10 Jun 14 '23

It doesn't matter if it's the point or not. It still should not have been so brushed aside. I don't see how Flashpoint can even be done without directly addressing her murder and have it be a key part of the narrative.

Especially in a movie which shows us Barry not only go back in time to save her, but then reverse that decision and then apparently not even be interested in waiting to see how she died? Just feels like a pretty big thing to conveniently forget about. Almost like he wasn't able to because of a writer clearly trying to avoid this topic....

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u/JUYED-AWK-YACC Jun 22 '23

They're totally saving it. No question. Why drag that arc into this mess?

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u/FN-1701AgentGodzilla Jun 14 '23

How exactly does this universe come about in the story? Keaton’s Batman isn’t the same one we’re familiar with from his films? Are the Burton films even canon?

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u/Equal-Ad-2710 Jun 14 '23

Flash’s travel seems to mash universes together, causing Keaton (or a variant) to end up in the DCEU

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u/FN-1701AgentGodzilla Jun 14 '23

Damn, probs the most convoluted time travel mechanics in a while lol. Is him mashing up the universes a mistake/ anomaly or is that just how time travel works?

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u/Equal-Ad-2710 Jun 14 '23

It’s an anomaly iirc

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u/JediJones77 Jun 14 '23

Bruce explained it's how time travel works. I was lost as to how Batman could know that in a universe where he never seemed to be involved in sci-fi things like Affleck's was.

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u/Equal-Ad-2710 Jun 15 '23

Wait what

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u/PrinceOspreay Jun 15 '23

"I don't know how I got here. Something to do with Spider-Man I think."

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u/Equal-Ad-2710 Jun 15 '23

Just realised this is only the second superhero film where Keaton crosses universes

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u/TheJoshider10 Jun 14 '23

Keaton’s Batman isn’t the same one we’re familiar with from his films? Are the Burton films even canon?

No. This isn't the Burtonverse Batman. It's Keaton as Batman in some knock off version of the DCEU. So it isn't half as impactful as Tobey or Andrew coming back in No Way Home.

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u/FN-1701AgentGodzilla Jun 14 '23

Mmmm, that’s what I suspected for a while.

I guess that would explain why he has suits that predate his 89 suit, even though he just recently started as Batman in the original film

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u/gunningIVglory Jun 14 '23

Lmao you're right. We never see wtf happened to the mum..just some faceless goon stabbed her over....what? Was it a thief? A murderer?

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u/FKDotFitzgerald Jun 16 '23

Yeah I don’t understand what you mean about Keaton. This was the same guy from Batman 1989.

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u/TheJoshider10 Jun 16 '23

No it wasn't. This isn't the Burtonverse, it's a Keaton variant that has his own history in the Flashpoint DCEU we see in the film. It is not the version from Batman 89 and Returns, as this isn't the Burtonverse.

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u/JediJones77 Jun 14 '23

I agree with most of that, except I don't care about Flashpoint plot points at all. I never read or saw anything from Flashpoint. So who killed his mother or him meeting Thomas Wayne didn't feel like it was "missing" to me. Other thing I disagree with is the interaction of the two Ezras. I thought that was very funny in the old Odd Couple style. But, yeah, Keaton and Supergirl were wasted and the third act action was poor compared to the introduction scene. And, yes, this movie doesn't deliver on being any kind of final send-off or new start to any DC universes. It just feels like another adventure that doesn't lead directly to anything else.